for the "Eli throws high slants and got Beckham hurt" crowd the next time this topic comes up and they tell us all the ways Eli will fall just short of the HOF.
But I disagree that you only look at the two factors of Regular Season success and Post Seasons success when evaluating HOF players. I think there is a 3rd factor of "Intangibles" that go beyond just stats and wins/losses to balance out things. After all, it is a Hall of "Fame" and not a Hall of "Stats" or Hall of "Win Percentage". The intangibles are often what defines a player above (or below) what his stats show.
This 3rd factor is why someone like Joe Namath is in with mediocre (to poor) regular season stats and only one postseason to speak of. That is b/c that one Superbowl redefined the NFL and is historic.
I think the "Intangibles" is what pushes Eli over the top. Things like:
- Not just winning the SB, but beating the 18-0 patriots
- The Tyree Helmet catch play
- The starting streak (that really should be continued with an asterisk, but I digress).
“Absolutely. First of all because of the Super Bowls that he has," Singletary said. "Even though the defense was good, at the same time, if you don’t have a quarterback it can be very difficult to win the Super Bowl. But the other thing is he’s had some tremendous games where he exemplified leadership. I just think it’s a shame what’s happened to him in the past year or so. To me, he is a Hall of Fame quarterback simply because he is a leader. I don’t care about all the other stuff you say about him – he is a leader. And he’s been able to take those teams to a place they couldn’t go without him.”
Taking teams to places they couldnt go without him.
-10 years ago taking the field with just under 3 minutes to go down by 4 to the undefeated Pats.
-The entire 2011 season in which he should have at the very least won co-MVP with Rodgers.
I read that as one abstain ( Smith ) and 12 yes answers ( we just don't like Warners very fair reasoning. Sorry. that's what the record says).
The guy who gave the reasoning why he wouldn't right now is Woodson.
I suspect the answer is that its up to Eli in his remaining years. Maybe not a playoff appearance but some stellar games on national TV, some tough wins against the Eagles and two more 3800 yd/24 TD/13-15 interceptions/ years gets it done.
inferiority complex about Eli. He will defend Eli when the game streak ended, and defend his high character. But the green eyed monster always shows up with on the field performance. He cant rarely give Eli credit for his incredible SBMVP performances. Can you imagine what Warner would say about Eli if he threw that int to James Harrison in the SB?
You weren’t a slam dunk either, Kurt. Stop acting like you were now that you finally got your gold jacket.
should be happy with his glorified story of going from grocery bagger to Super Bowl MVP, a tale that has been spun to make it sound like he's on a shelf stacking Wheaties and somehow lands a QB job.
He's also somewhat of a HoF anomaly. He certainly deserves to be in, even with his relatively short career, his only 4 Pro Bowl appearances, his 3 year run with the Rams that was phenomenal, his injuries that kept him only playing 16 games 3 times in his career, and his below .500 record outside of St. Louis. But Eli deserves it too.
Warner really needs to shut up. He had nowhere to go, was brought Â
here and signed knowingly to keep the seat warm until Eli was ready, and possibly get another team interested in him. Which he did. He was not going to get a shot to be the long term QB and he knew it coming in.
Is that you can add almost 13 other pro’s, experts in the sport, seen it all people, to add to the other pro’s, scouts, talent evaluators, who say that Eli still has it. Who say that it was the supporting cast that makes him look worse than he is. Who says that he’s not done and can still lead this team to the post season.
Versus a smattering of BBIers, sitting on their couches.
should be happy with his glorified story of going from grocery bagger to Super Bowl MVP, a tale that has been spun to make it sound like he's on a shelf stacking Wheaties and somehow lands a QB job.
He's also somewhat of a HoF anomaly. He certainly deserves to be in, even with his relatively short career, his only 4 Pro Bowl appearances, his 3 year run with the Rams that was phenomenal, his injuries that kept him only playing 16 games 3 times in his career, and his below .500 record outside of St. Louis. But Eli deserves it too.
That's the thing. Warner doesn't seem to realize he was "borderline" too.
the hate for Warner. After all he said, " I think he’s a borderline guy, but I also believe because he won two championships in the fashion in which he won them, I think that’s probably what puts him over the top and gets him into the Hall of Fame.”
the hate for Warner. After all he said, " I think he’s a borderline guy, but I also believe because he won two championships in the fashion in which he won them, I think that’s probably what puts him over the top and gets him into the Hall of Fame.”
So if that's what Warner said, I think it's spot on.
If Eli didn't win those two SB's, I don't think he would get in. That's really the thing that should, and does, push him over the top.
So Rivers might be on the wrong side of the border? Â
will eventually get in. Roethlisberger is a lock. There will be some dissention in the voting room when it comes to Manning and Rivers, but they will all get in.
Warner is clearly still pissed about getting benched for Manning, but even he ultimately admitted Eli will get in. I think his point regarding regular season play is relevant when you compare Manning and Rivers.
Rivers did not get to play until 2006, while Manning entered in mid 2004. Yet Rivers has only about $1k fewer yard passing, 3 more TDs and 62 fewer INTs in his career. Manning deserves to get in before Rivers, but I think Rivers deserves the HOF as well at some point.
will eventually get in. Roethlisberger is a lock. There will be some dissention in the voting room when it comes to Manning and Rivers, but they will all get in.
Warner is clearly still pissed about getting benched for Manning, but even he ultimately admitted Eli will get in. I think his point regarding regular season play is relevant when you compare Manning and Rivers.
Rivers did not get to play until 2006, while Manning entered in mid 2004. Yet Rivers has only about $1k fewer yard passing, 3 more TDs and 62 fewer INTs in his career. Manning deserves to get in before Rivers, but I think Rivers deserves the HOF as well at some point.
All three should be in the HOF. Rivers has the statistics and had some very nice seasons. If the Chargers were a better franchise, he very likely could have had a sb to his name as well. Ben and Eli should be locks, they are both quality qbs who had a penchant for the incredible and extraordinary.
Are you really making this comparison? Also, let's be honest with ourselves, if Wentz is hurt early or mid season, Foles isn't getting that team all the way to the SB, that season was built on Wentz, with Foles playing well in 2- count em- two games. I'm willing to bet Foles never sniffs another sb in his career.
Is thoughtful and On-Target...and it was Affirmative!
Eli has mostly been a top 5-7 QB...Never a Top 3. In His Prime, The Top 2 were Brady and Peyton. Rothlisberger and Brees would usually be seen as 3/4.... and there were years when other QB's were in that 3-7 mix. I don't believe that Eli was Ever at 3...and you could sometimes argue that He was at 4...5/6
Presently, He has no place in the Top 10....maybe he will again.
He's had some Greatness Runs---4th Quarters and Playoffs/Superbowls. From Film Study to Ball Snap, He's always been in the Top 1-4...He gets you out of Bad Plays and into Good or less disasterous Plays. That's why He can win Big Games and Play so far up in Big Situations---That's not an accident or luck---That's His Greatness.
Is thoughtful and On-Target...and it was Affirmative!
Eli has mostly been a top 5-7 QB...Never a Top 3. In His Prime, The Top 2 were Brady and Peyton. Rothlisberger and Brees would usually be seen as 3/4.... and there were years when other QB's were in that 3-7 mix. I don't believe that Eli was Ever at 3...and you could sometimes argue that He was at 4...5/6
Presently, He has no place in the Top 10....maybe he will again.
He's had some Greatness Runs---4th Quarters and Playoffs/Superbowls. From Film Study to Ball Snap, He's always been in the Top 1-4...He gets you out of Bad Plays and into Good or less disasterous Plays. That's why He can win Big Games and Play so far up in Big Situations---That's not an accident or luck---That's His Greatness.
of embarrassing OL play in both the passing and running game, zero run game, and a stretch of insane injuries across the roster.
The one constant sign of hope in this mess has been Eli.
Some things Reese did very well and he deserves a lot of credit for the two Super Bowls. But he also did so much damage in terms of building a team for sustained success. To go as long as the Giants have without being able to run the ball at all or protect a franchise pocket-passing QB is beyond frustrating.
of embarrassing OL play in both the passing and running game, zero run game, and a stretch of insane injuries across the roster.
The one constant sign of hope in this mess has been Eli.
Some things Reese did very well and he deserves a lot of credit for the two Super Bowls. But he also did so much damage in terms of building a team for sustained success. To go as long as the Giants have without being able to run the ball at all or protect a franchise pocket-passing QB is beyond frustrating.
Interestingly enough, that's exactly what Warner said four days ago in regards to Eli:
Quote:
"I think it's impossible to be able to evaluate anybody, especially when you're making an evaluation if he's done or not. You have to at least see him not be able to do it with the pieces in place," Warner told NJ Advance Media on radio row at the Super Bowl. "You've got to be able to go back and go, 'OK, that guy was open and that guy was open, he had plenty of time and he just didn't get it done. The defense played well enough and he just couldn't do it.' You can't say any of that about last year. I just think it's impossible to evaluate that."
Warner didn't detect any physical slippage from what he did see of Manning this season.
"Not at all," said Warner, who played until he was 38. "You have to give him another year with these pieces in place just to see. I'm just a guy that doesn't believe very many guys just fall off a cliff. Outside of a major injury or something physically just deteriorating, guys don't forget how to play the game. I don't think Eli is that way either."
Quote:
"I just think they went through a bunch of crap this year," Warner said. "He's still out there fighting and battling and going through it. I just think they need to take a step back, figure out what was going on with their defense, get that right again, get their play-makers healthy, fix the offensive line and get some improvement there, and I think Eli is your guy for a couple more years until you figure out what the future looks like and who's that next guy."
ahead of Elway, Tarkenton, Moon, and Kelly (and will possible pass Marino when its all done);
Eli is a lock for 7th, and has a good shot at 6th, at All-time passing TD's (ahead of guys like Montana, Moon, Elway, Tarkenton). Maybe he'll even finish ahead of Marino for 6th.
2 time SB winner, 2 time SB MVP.
4 time Pro Bowl player (so far)
Payton Man of the Year award winner
How can he not make it? If his name wasn't Eli, everyone would say he's a shoe-in. His stats are right there with Big Ben's, who some people on here say is a shoe-in.
Warner says Eli is a HOF player based exclusively on his two playoff runs. The only reason Eli would get into the HOF is off the 2007 and 2012 playoffs.
even when Mac fucks up, he doesn't get the intended result!!
Quote:
its funny
Jerz44 : 10:53 am : link : reply
that for all the hate (justifiably) towards McAdoo, he may have done more than anyone in terms of lifting Eli's reputation.
Once he was benched, people were tripping over each other to support him.
Did the guys going after Warner actually read what he said? This is hilarious. First reply to the thread the guy says Kurt said Nope lol which isn't true then it seems no one reads his quote and the hate fest begins, unreal lol.
There is no debate and there is nothing to weigh in on. Eli Manning is a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. As a player he was supremely clutch and exciting. He meets all statistical criteria. Off the field he embodied everything you could possibly want as the face of a franchise and representative of the league. Victory was handled with humble class and grace, defeat was handled with humble class and grace. He persevered against adversity, he played by the rules, he didn't show up his opponents.
Most said “wait and see” without using those words exactly. Â
Eli’s has had a much better career than Warner and yet Eli is somehow borderline? The arrogance of Warner is amazing!
I remember reading an article that broke down the yes and no arguments for Warner’s HOF candidacy and there some really amazing stats about Warner and things like playing outside, playing in bad weather and playing from behind Warner was shockingly terrible, getting benched multiple times throughout his career and the fumbles and all the HOF and super talented players Warner had around him. Warner is a feel good story, the whole bagging groceries thing, but the story always seems to ignore the fact there was a reason Warner was bagging groceries. Me personally, I never thought of Warner as an HOF guy, but, hey, he’s got the hardware and his story is a nice tale of perseverance and determination.
He’s in the Hall now, so it’s a moot point. But, in the Dugan article Warner intimates that Eli’s regular season doesn’t qualify him for the HOF. Eli’s has a substainally better regular season career than almost every one of his peers and he’s by far surpassed Warner’s career which was actually pretty mediocre. Eli’s start streak alone makes him amazing. His success without a lot of talent around is also amazing and completely different than Warner’s career which includes several HOF and All Pro players the likes of Eli might only dream of. Anyway, I think Warner’s a putz and the fact that so many other folks that Dugan polled said yes is a fairly solid indicator that Warner out on his own in this matter.
responded "let's wait and see" as if there is much more of the Eli story to be written.
If he has another couple of decent to good years, puts another 45 TD's on his resume (and 20+ INTs) and wins another 16-18 games, are people really suggesting that will make him a HOFer??
I think he is in b/c of the 2 SB wins/MVP's.
and I don't think Warner's comments were at all out of line - in fact, I think he described the enigma that is Eli's career perfectly.
basically made his HoF resume in a 3 years span leading the Greatest Show on Earth, and likely only is in the HoF for his Super Bowl win, which elevated the status of that group.
He played 16 games only 3 times in his career.
He had a very short, yet highly successful run. If he's deserving of the hall and Eli isn't then I don't have a logical explanation on how that would be.
and not Eli Manning? Championships count. Kelly is an ofer on 4 tries. Manning has/will have better career stats and is a two-time SB MVP. Should be a slam dunk and the only reason it may not be is the continuing anti-Manning bias in the sports media. The NFL HoF process is a joke anyway, rife with regional biases, grudges, and gamesmanship.
lol, what? he was on the fence, which is fair.
Not surprisingly a Dallas Cowboy, and the man who lost his starting job in NY to make way for Eli.
He's the only guy that had a multi paragraph quote/explanation.
This 3rd factor is why someone like Joe Namath is in with mediocre (to poor) regular season stats and only one postseason to speak of. That is b/c that one Superbowl redefined the NFL and is historic.
I think the "Intangibles" is what pushes Eli over the top. Things like:
- Not just winning the SB, but beating the 18-0 patriots
- The Tyree Helmet catch play
- The starting streak (that really should be continued with an asterisk, but I digress).
“Absolutely. First of all because of the Super Bowls that he has," Singletary said. "Even though the defense was good, at the same time, if you don’t have a quarterback it can be very difficult to win the Super Bowl. But the other thing is he’s had some tremendous games where he exemplified leadership. I just think it’s a shame what’s happened to him in the past year or so. To me, he is a Hall of Fame quarterback simply because he is a leader. I don’t care about all the other stuff you say about him – he is a leader. And he’s been able to take those teams to a place they couldn’t go without him.”
Taking teams to places they couldnt go without him.
-10 years ago taking the field with just under 3 minutes to go down by 4 to the undefeated Pats.
-The entire 2011 season in which he should have at the very least won co-MVP with Rodgers.
Quote:
sure love but to hear himself talk...
He's the only guy that had a multi paragraph quote/explanation.
It probably takes him 10 minutes to order lunch.
The guy who gave the reasoning why he wouldn't right now is Woodson.
I suspect the answer is that its up to Eli in his remaining years. Maybe not a playoff appearance but some stellar games on national TV, some tough wins against the Eagles and two more 3800 yd/24 TD/13-15 interceptions/ years gets it done.
You weren’t a slam dunk either, Kurt. Stop acting like you were now that you finally got your gold jacket.
He's also somewhat of a HoF anomaly. He certainly deserves to be in, even with his relatively short career, his only 4 Pro Bowl appearances, his 3 year run with the Rams that was phenomenal, his injuries that kept him only playing 16 games 3 times in his career, and his below .500 record outside of St. Louis. But Eli deserves it too.
Versus a smattering of BBIers, sitting on their couches.
He's also somewhat of a HoF anomaly. He certainly deserves to be in, even with his relatively short career, his only 4 Pro Bowl appearances, his 3 year run with the Rams that was phenomenal, his injuries that kept him only playing 16 games 3 times in his career, and his below .500 record outside of St. Louis. But Eli deserves it too.
That's the thing. Warner doesn't seem to realize he was "borderline" too.
Sometimes I think it's this place that has an ax to grind with Kurt.
So if that's what Warner said, I think it's spot on.
If Eli didn't win those two SB's, I don't think he would get in. That's really the thing that should, and does, push him over the top.
Warner is clearly still pissed about getting benched for Manning, but even he ultimately admitted Eli will get in. I think his point regarding regular season play is relevant when you compare Manning and Rivers.
Rivers did not get to play until 2006, while Manning entered in mid 2004. Yet Rivers has only about $1k fewer yard passing, 3 more TDs and 62 fewer INTs in his career. Manning deserves to get in before Rivers, but I think Rivers deserves the HOF as well at some point.
Warner is clearly still pissed about getting benched for Manning, but even he ultimately admitted Eli will get in. I think his point regarding regular season play is relevant when you compare Manning and Rivers.
Rivers did not get to play until 2006, while Manning entered in mid 2004. Yet Rivers has only about $1k fewer yard passing, 3 more TDs and 62 fewer INTs in his career. Manning deserves to get in before Rivers, but I think Rivers deserves the HOF as well at some point.
All three should be in the HOF. Rivers has the statistics and had some very nice seasons. If the Chargers were a better franchise, he very likely could have had a sb to his name as well. Ben and Eli should be locks, they are both quality qbs who had a penchant for the incredible and extraordinary.
Eli Manning Career:
-TD:339
-Yds: 51,682
Nick Foles:
-TD: 61
-Yds:9,752
Are you really making this comparison? Also, let's be honest with ourselves, if Wentz is hurt early or mid season, Foles isn't getting that team all the way to the SB, that season was built on Wentz, with Foles playing well in 2- count em- two games. I'm willing to bet Foles never sniffs another sb in his career.
Eli has mostly been a top 5-7 QB...Never a Top 3. In His Prime, The Top 2 were Brady and Peyton. Rothlisberger and Brees would usually be seen as 3/4.... and there were years when other QB's were in that 3-7 mix. I don't believe that Eli was Ever at 3...and you could sometimes argue that He was at 4...5/6
Presently, He has no place in the Top 10....maybe he will again.
He's had some Greatness Runs---4th Quarters and Playoffs/Superbowls. From Film Study to Ball Snap, He's always been in the Top 1-4...He gets you out of Bad Plays and into Good or less disasterous Plays. That's why He can win Big Games and Play so far up in Big Situations---That's not an accident or luck---That's His Greatness.
In comment 13824942 Rafflee said:
Eli has mostly been a top 5-7 QB...Never a Top 3. In His Prime, The Top 2 were Brady and Peyton. Rothlisberger and Brees would usually be seen as 3/4.... and there were years when other QB's were in that 3-7 mix. I don't believe that Eli was Ever at 3...and you could sometimes argue that He was at 4...5/6
Presently, He has no place in the Top 10....maybe he will again.
He's had some Greatness Runs---4th Quarters and Playoffs/Superbowls. From Film Study to Ball Snap, He's always been in the Top 1-4...He gets you out of Bad Plays and into Good or less disasterous Plays. That's why He can win Big Games and Play so far up in Big Situations---That's not an accident or luck---That's His Greatness.
The one constant sign of hope in this mess has been Eli.
Some things Reese did very well and he deserves a lot of credit for the two Super Bowls. But he also did so much damage in terms of building a team for sustained success. To go as long as the Giants have without being able to run the ball at all or protect a franchise pocket-passing QB is beyond frustrating.
The one constant sign of hope in this mess has been Eli.
Some things Reese did very well and he deserves a lot of credit for the two Super Bowls. But he also did so much damage in terms of building a team for sustained success. To go as long as the Giants have without being able to run the ball at all or protect a franchise pocket-passing QB is beyond frustrating.
Interestingly enough, that's exactly what Warner said four days ago in regards to Eli:
Warner didn't detect any physical slippage from what he did see of Manning this season.
"Not at all," said Warner, who played until he was 38. "You have to give him another year with these pieces in place just to see. I'm just a guy that doesn't believe very many guys just fall off a cliff. Outside of a major injury or something physically just deteriorating, guys don't forget how to play the game. I don't think Eli is that way either."
Link - ( New Window )
Eli is a lock for 7th, and has a good shot at 6th, at All-time passing TD's (ahead of guys like Montana, Moon, Elway, Tarkenton). Maybe he'll even finish ahead of Marino for 6th.
2 time SB winner, 2 time SB MVP.
4 time Pro Bowl player (so far)
Payton Man of the Year award winner
How can he not make it? If his name wasn't Eli, everyone would say he's a shoe-in. His stats are right there with Big Ben's, who some people on here say is a shoe-in.
It's too bad McAdoo ended the streak, because being second all time in that would have added to the resume as well.
Now he'll likely get passed by Rivers, and that isn't fair.
Dude is a fucking tool.
Once he was benched, people were tripping over each other to support him.
Put on your reading glasses.
Warner says Eli is a HOF player based exclusively on his two playoff runs. The only reason Eli would get into the HOF is off the 2007 and 2012 playoffs.
Jerz44 : 10:53 am : link : reply
that for all the hate (justifiably) towards McAdoo, he may have done more than anyone in terms of lifting Eli's reputation.
Once he was benched, people were tripping over each other to support him.
Most everyone including me are looking for one more good season and a playoff run.
Wait and see.
I remember reading an article that broke down the yes and no arguments for Warner’s HOF candidacy and there some really amazing stats about Warner and things like playing outside, playing in bad weather and playing from behind Warner was shockingly terrible, getting benched multiple times throughout his career and the fumbles and all the HOF and super talented players Warner had around him. Warner is a feel good story, the whole bagging groceries thing, but the story always seems to ignore the fact there was a reason Warner was bagging groceries. Me personally, I never thought of Warner as an HOF guy, but, hey, he’s got the hardware and his story is a nice tale of perseverance and determination.
He’s in the Hall now, so it’s a moot point. But, in the Dugan article Warner intimates that Eli’s regular season doesn’t qualify him for the HOF. Eli’s has a substainally better regular season career than almost every one of his peers and he’s by far surpassed Warner’s career which was actually pretty mediocre. Eli’s start streak alone makes him amazing. His success without a lot of talent around is also amazing and completely different than Warner’s career which includes several HOF and All Pro players the likes of Eli might only dream of. Anyway, I think Warner’s a putz and the fact that so many other folks that Dugan polled said yes is a fairly solid indicator that Warner out on his own in this matter.
If he has another couple of decent to good years, puts another 45 TD's on his resume (and 20+ INTs) and wins another 16-18 games, are people really suggesting that will make him a HOFer??
I think he is in b/c of the 2 SB wins/MVP's.
and I don't think Warner's comments were at all out of line - in fact, I think he described the enigma that is Eli's career perfectly.
He played 16 games only 3 times in his career.
He had a very short, yet highly successful run. If he's deserving of the hall and Eli isn't then I don't have a logical explanation on how that would be.