If NYG is looking to compete in 2018, and with Manning still in the picture that appears to be the approach, their OL-fixing is going to need to come via FA.
We can talk about drafting OL all day and yes, if the value is there you do it, but there is a problem. There is no OL worth taking at #2 and I am going to project 6-7 OL taken in round 1 as of right now. With the OL class being average at best (I am thinking slightly below average)....the ones that can make a difference early will likely be gone when NYG comes around on the clock again in round 2.
So assuming no trades, I just don't see the proper value in round 1 or 2 for OL, and now we are taking about a FA-only approach to fix the starting group. I'm not a huge FA guy in general, but in certain situations it is a must. I am forecasting this to be one of those situations. This means you get the top available OT AND top available OG/OC. The ideal situation would be to do both of them while bringing back Pugh on a team-freindly (maybe even short term) deal considering his injury issues and lack of ground to stand on.
Knocking on the doors of Andrew Norwell and Nate Solder, hard.
Doing this really enforced the BPA approach in the draft days 1 and 2 with the amount of holes they have elsewhere. Financially this can work, as Eli and his 20+ million will be off the books in a year or 2.
My point is we can't put all our resources only into the O line. in truth we will not be SB competitive for 3-5 years at best
Make a run at Norwell if we cant get him bring fluker and jones back.
I dont think we will find a LT in the 2nd but could find a guard or RT. Solder-Norwell-Jones with Flowers and a rookie on the right side
Why so? Nothing to indicate that he's against spending money. Gave Matt Kalil $55 million over 5 years just this year.
Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.
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Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.
LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.
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In comment 13825593 JonC said:
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Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.
LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.
Which circles us back to the main point, don't overpay elite dollars to non-elite players.
Bolles had one of the best seasons of all the rookie linemen last year, but you're not going to find many people who were convinced at this time last year that Bolles was going to be someone you could bet on. Linemen are hard to find and harder to scout these days due to the nature of college offense.
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In comment 13825593 JonC said:
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Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.
LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.
Look at the contracts guards are getting. 5/60 for Zeitler this year. 5/60 for Osemele the year before.
All those positions get paid. I would argue that something has changed. Guards do get paid now.
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respect your opinions a ton...but it seems year over year there's this "not a great OL class" thing with the draft. And yet every year, very good OL are taken.
Bolles had one of the best seasons of all the rookie linemen last year, but you're not going to find many people who were convinced at this time last year that Bolles was going to be someone you could bet on. Linemen are hard to find and harder to scout these days due to the nature of college offense.
OK, but my point is that every draft has good OL. It seems on this board, every year, the "OL just isn't good" line comes out during draft time.
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In comment 13825598 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13825593 JonC said:
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Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.
LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.
Look at the contracts guards are getting. 5/60 for Zeitler this year. 5/60 for Osemele the year before.
All those positions get paid. I would argue that something has changed. Guards do get paid now.
The $ has changed, but $12M for an OG when you don't have a LT set in place? No thanks, that's short-sighted planning in my book.
You pay to sign Solder or a Whitworth, for example, then the cost of the UFA OG is de-emphasized for me.
There's a salary cap to fit it all under.
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In comment 13825614 ryanmkeane said:
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respect your opinions a ton...but it seems year over year there's this "not a great OL class" thing with the draft. And yet every year, very good OL are taken.
Bolles had one of the best seasons of all the rookie linemen last year, but you're not going to find many people who were convinced at this time last year that Bolles was going to be someone you could bet on. Linemen are hard to find and harder to scout these days due to the nature of college offense.
OK, but my point is that every draft has good OL. It seems on this board, every year, the "OL just isn't good" line comes out during draft time.
Every draft has players who turn out good at every position. But, if we go into the draft needing to draft a starter, especially a left tackle, we are in trouble. That would mean our non-1st round pick needs to be an absolute home run.
One of Reese's biggest blunders was not replenishing the offensive line earlier. He had Diehl, Snee, and McKenzie all basically break down at the same time. Beatty was in place at LT for Diehl but the Giants didn't have long term options anywhere else on the line. Reese tried to fix the line by using early picks on Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers but by then it was too late and he didn't pick the right players not to mention his failure to sign players like Okung because they didn't want to move Flowers off of LT. Signing and keeping John Jerry as the primary starter was another terrible decision. Had Jerry strictly been depth then that would have been fine but he has proven that he isn't a starting caliber guard. Going into last season with nobody to challenge either Flowers or Hart was the final straw. How he felt comfortable with those two is beyond me.
The $ has changed, but $12M for an OG when you don't have a LT set in place? No thanks, that's short-sighted planning in my book.
You pay to sign Solder or a Whitworth, for example, then the cost of the UFA OG is de-emphasized for me.
If you mean by having a top tackle that you don't need to worry as much about the interior of the line? Not sure I agree with that. Whatever your weakness is, that's what the opposing defense is going to exploit. Hell, we root for a team that made it trendy to stack up four defensive ends and exploit the weaker Center-Guard matchups. The Pats just lost it all by letting Brady get pressured right up the middle one time all night.
Every basic fan base in the NFL in the need of a LT are clamoring at the idea of adding Solder.. If you're New England would you let him walk with no replacement in place? No you wouldn't, thats exactly why you want the Giants to "knock hard on his door". No offense to anyone here but the thought process of this whole thread is without depth or logic.
DG is gonna have his work cut out for him. He'll have to be aggressive and thorough in free agency, the draft, and with trades. Its not as easy as, "Hey lets sign Solder, Norwell and Pugh". Thats so simplistic and honestly, not well thought out at all.
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I just don't see him leaving NE. His son was just diagnosed with cancer in November. He would have to be away from his family during this tough time, or move the whole family. Moving would disrupt his treatment and they would gave to find a new medical team. Just a gut feeling, but it's not an ordinary situation.
You could get him closer to better places for treatment. Seriously, he could live close enough to Philly and the stadium and have his child get some of the best treatment he can have at CHOP.
BCH is no slouch facility - probably on par (or close) with CHOP.
Are the exception. Four of the five best O-line teams in the NFL made the playoffs in 2017. The only one that didn't (Dallas) was ravaged by injuries, but still almost made it. The best one, (Philly), just won the Super Bowl.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-week-10-farmer-20171111-story.html
I'd absolutely love to sign both Norwell & Solder, but I don't think we have the cap room to get it done. If we did, I'd recommend a trade-back in the draft to get he Giants O-line in that top-five category.
Don't agree with Sy about not taking Nelson (for example) @ #2 if he's the legitimate BPA at that slot. Nelson is a better prospect than was Lane Johnson (#4 in 2013); Robinson #2, J. Matthews #6, and Lewan #11 in 2014; Scherff #5 in 2015, Conklin #8 in 2016; Bolles #20, Ramczyk in 2017
Colin is making deductions here -- he has never claimed to have inside info about it. He explained his rationale - based on how NFL professionals evaluate and value QBs on a different scale than other positions. So you may not agree with him, that's fine, but your issue appears to be offbase because he made his rationale very clear in arriving at his conclusion.
The Giants don't want to pick in the top 5 of the draft again for another 15 years, and I'm fairly certain nobody here wants to experience 3-13 again anytime soon. Which is about what you will need to do to find Eli's replacement, on the assumption that there happens to be a Quarterback out there to be had at the time.
Are the exception. Four of the five best O-line teams in the NFL made the playoffs in 2017. The only one that didn't (Dallas) was ravaged by injuries, but still almost made it. The best one, (Philly), just won the Super Bowl.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-week-10-farmer-20171111-story.html
I'd absolutely love to sign both Norwell & Solder, but I don't think we have the cap room to get it done. If we did, I'd recommend a trade-back in the draft to get he Giants O-line in that top-five category.
Don't agree with Sy about not taking Nelson (for example) @ #2 if he's the legitimate BPA at that slot. Nelson is a better prospect than was Lane Johnson (#4 in 2013); Robinson #2, J. Matthews #6, and Lewan #11 in 2014; Scherff #5 in 2015, Conklin #8 in 2016; Bolles #20, Ramczyk in 2017
I love the double standard. Many are willing to spend upwards of $25 Mill of salary cap space on Solder and Norwell but passing on a QB and trading back to draft Nelson ( who is gonna be a stud in the NFL ) is not a viable option.
I like Norwell over Solder if we sign one big OL FA, mainly because he is younger and is an All Pro. But if NYG can land Solder and draft Nelson, that would be a good balance of our resources to fix the O Line.
Provided either Solder or Norwell become available I completely agree with you. However, it seems to me like we are gonna have to pay Beckham before the season starts. Are they able to do all 3? Assume Beckham gets an Antonio Brown type of contract, I would imagine we would want the biggest hit of that bill to be paid when Eli is gone. Is there a way to do that?
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I don't think I'd love spending that much on offensive line free agents, nor do I think it's necessary whatsoever to put together a massively improved line, but I don't see why you'd pass on the QB for a really good Guard prospect. I love Chris Snee. Awesome player. If you told me Nelson was going to be Chris Snee. He's still not more valuable than a potential franchise quarterback. Eli has one year left on his deal. That's a ton of money coming off the books. They're not in a bleak cap situation anyway.
Provided either Solder or Norwell become available I completely agree with you. However, it seems to me like we are gonna have to pay Beckham before the season starts. Are they able to do all 3? Assume Beckham gets an Antonio Brown type of contract, I would imagine we would want the biggest hit of that bill to be paid when Eli is gone. Is there a way to do that?
The nuts and bolts of capology aren't my thing, but the only contract that's absolutely an immovable object right now is JPP, and they just have to eat that until they have flexibility there. I'm not saying I'd be all for these moves, but just as an example, they save $4m if they cut Marshall, and around another 4 if they part with DRC.
Sign Solder & draft Nelson (especially in a trade-back), which would give us the ability to get Will Hernandez the guard from UTEP. He's a natural power RG.
I don't know if he can play center if so, we keep Fluker at RG.
I have ZERO interest in drafting a QB, we have a Super Bowl QB veteran and an excellent prospect on the roster.
12.4 is the highest number in the league, which Zeitler got last season as a 26 year old . Norwell will be the new highest paid guard, but it's not going to be a LOT more than that. It's not going to be something in the low Quarterback money tier.
And besides, it's not the dollar value that matters, it's how the contract is structured. Despite signing for 5/$60 with 31m guaranteed, Zeitler's cap hit was 8.4 last season.
Sign Solder & draft Nelson (especially in a trade-back), which would give us the ability to get Will Hernandez the guard from UTEP. He's a natural power RG.
I don't know if he can play center if so, we keep Fluker at RG.
I have ZERO interest in drafting a QB, we have a Super Bowl QB veteran and an excellent prospect on the roster.
No offense intended but I really think you are gonna be disappointed. I think the chances Giants draft a QB is extremely high.
Where I think Reese blew the OL was the last couple of years. It was obvious the OL was in tatters a couple of years ago and for two off seasons be was perfectly fine with Jerry starting, not even considering replacing Flowers o. The left side, etc.
So, over about 4 fo 5 years he did address tbe OL and failed. Then the laat couple he truly ignored the OL in the draft and FA, at least in terms of upgrading the starters.
About a QB being drafted in the 1st round (and that guy will be administered a physical beating). In the mean-time, the foundation of the team (the O-line keeps getting ignored), the window-of-opportunity is lost and back to mediocrity we go.
And, Matt Reese did try, but he got screwed on draft day when we lost Brandon Scherff in 2015 and Jack Conklin in 2016.
And now Dave Gettleman is going to be the 2nd coming of Jerry Reese; maybe "it's just in the cards " (fate, some call it)
About a QB being drafted in the 1st round (and that guy will be administered a physical beating). In the mean-time, the foundation of the team (the O-line keeps getting ignored), the window-of-opportunity is lost and back to mediocrity we go.
And, Matt Reese did try, but he got screwed on draft day when we lost Brandon Scherff in 2015 and Jack Conklin in 2016.
And now Dave Gettleman is going to be the 2nd coming of Jerry Reese; maybe "it's just in the cards " (fate, some call it)
we have a Super Bowl QB veteran and an excellent prospect on the roster.
Not to be argumentative, but the only people who've said that are the ones who got fired for drafting badly.
People will over-analyze everything but at the end of the season, if you're over .500 and in the playoffs no one will care how much money you spent on anyone.
I remember when the Eagles traded their 1st, 4th, and 6th round picks for Jason Peters, and then signed him to that huge deal (at the time) and most of BBI scoffed. Doesn't seem like such a bad deal now does it.
Do what you have to do, Gettleman.
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First. I believe eli has plenty of good football in him and think he can still win big in this league. Grateful head. You say he slipped that's your opinion. Nothing more.
That is your opinion and nothing either right? There are plenty of efficiency stats that would back me up, QBR and DVOA. You would point to subjective evidence like OL and running game. I also think Eli could still win in the correct situation. Good OL and running game. I think someone like Rosen would do very well with that too, cheaper and younger. Insert your favorite QB in the draft, I just used Rosen for kicks.
Eli IS in decline- the numbers over the past 6 seasons bear that out. Too many fixate on total passing yards and TDs, but fail to look at the secondary numbers, which show inefficiency and decline.
Part of that IS the OL play. Part of it IS scheme. Part is just that Eli IS in his late 30's and in physical decline (not from a whole life perspective, but from a pro athlete peak period view).
I do believe that the Giants finally settling on a real offensive scheme by an experienced coach and staff will improve the offensive game planning and output. A real scheme will also help the OL, which seemed not to have a set plan.
However, better players ARE needed on OL- especially in the interior OL. As the season progressed, Flowers actually was good. He might not ever have the consistent footwork to be a LT, but he should be more than adequate at RT.
With that said, the OG and C were a disaster- and the main reason Eli got happy feet. People tend to think it is edge pressure that causes sacks, hurried throws and breakdowns. That is only partially true- when the OT gets beat, it brings pressure. However, the partial solution is to step up in the pocket- which assumes that the interior OL is holding up. Unfortunately, the interior OL were getting pushed right back into Eli's face, which left him nowhere to go.
Replace all 3 interior OL in FA- no interior OL from the Giants 2017 season should even be considered to be brought back. Draft one long term project and sign one almost done vet for depth. You will see a dramatic improvement with just those moves.
The Giants also need a legitimate run game. Unfortunately, they have NO idea whether Webb can be a starter or not because no one put him out there. That means that even though Barkley may be the best RB we have seen in the last decade- and maybe the best we will see for another decade, if there is a QB the Giants are sold on at #2, the Giants MUST pick the QB over Barkley.
However, there is also next to nothing in FA RB. Thus, the Giants MIGHT have to invest in a RB with the second round pick- there are lots of rotational type RB deeper in the draft- but there are only 3 RB who can be 4 down guys in the NFL in this draft- and they might not make it out of round 1. If one does, you probably have to invest in that RB. That is not ideal, especially with the need for multiple LB, maybe a FS, possibly an OL or DE.
In that way, with an improved interior OL and a solid RB- as well as a potential future franchise QB builds for the future- but it may get them to be competitive now. Eli is no longer a franchise QB- but he IS an above-average one still. That combined with a real offensive scheme, a good run game and great WR/TE can make the offense above-average, while helping the defense by simply not requiring them to be on the field 2/3 of the game.
This is going to be a multi-year transition in which the Giants try to maintain playoff contending status for the last year of Eli, while putting together enough building blocks to avoid a drop-off when the #2 pick QB takes over. This might take 3 drafts to get right- but it requires focus on interior OL, picking the right QB at #2 and getting a real 4 down RB, while grabbing legit sideline to sideline LB in the middle of the draft.