The approach with this OL

we will have to spend major FA dollars and we will be competing with a lot of teams. Another option is the trade market which we seem alergic to.

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years.

Solder won’t be worth the LT money
Hope that Wheeler gets a chance

and perhaps a thrifty value veteran to insert between Flowers, Richburg, and Pugh could do wonders.

I think they still have talent. They're not so hot next to each other, but with a vet in between them, that could shore things up.

I just don't see him leaving NE. His son was just diagnosed with cancer in November. He would have to be away from his family during this tough time, or move the whole family. Moving would disrupt his treatment and they would gave to find a new medical team. Just a gut feeling, but it's not an ordinary situation.

In comment 13824764 Jolly Blue Giant said:

Quote:

I just don't see him leaving NE. His son was just diagnosed with cancer in November. He would have to be away from his family during this tough time, or move the whole family. Moving would disrupt his treatment and they would gave to find a new medical team. Just a gut feeling, but it's not an ordinary situation.

You could get him closer to better places for treatment. Seriously, he could live close enough to Philly and the stadium and have his child get some of the best treatment he can have at CHOP.

He could, but there are a lot of non football factors at play. People become close to their doctors sometimes. Or maybe, he doesn’t like the treatment or the doctors. My point is, I wouldn’t be surprised if he stays in NE for non football reasons.

Knocking on the doors of Andrew Norwell and Nate Solder, hard.

I know the chance he might not leave is a concern but if he hits the FA market, which he should if he wants more money then we should hit it hard

Norwell and Soldier would turn this oline into a legit unit.
Then we add either Price (OSU) in Rd 2 or Cole (UM ) in rd 3 for center or at least RT Guard and back up center.

Oline becomes
Solder-Norwell-Jones(at lease at first)-Price/Cole-Wheeler/Flowers
or
Solder -Norwell-Price/Jones-Flowers-Wheeler
or
Solder-Norwell-Jones-Cole-FLowers

If we don't get Solder then resign Fluker
Wheeler-Norwell-Price/Jones-Fluker-Flowers

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

Yes...but
we would have to be lacking for another year at another spot and that would prob be linebacker unless we take one in rd 2 or 3 that plays very well.

I think Norwell should be a top priority. There are a few less expensive veteran stop gap options out there too.

John Sullivan played Center for the Vikings last year and I assume he has a good relationship with Shurmur. He's in the twilight of his career but could be a good 1 or 2 year stopgap on a reasonable deal.

Bringing Pugh back makes sense too.

on offensive linemen.

I'd like to see Fluker back as well.

LT is not available at this moment. Solder is not a good option. Might have to deal with a stop gap for a year. Maybe that guy is Flowers, or someone that gets cut, maybe they go with someone on the roster like Wheeler, or pick up an average type FA. Maybe an up and coming guy like Hubbard from the Steelers, depending on money, that can play all the positions.

Look at injury guys on one year contracts like Jack Mewhort.

Without knowing money its hard to say "who" but this is the theory I would use, players come from all different ways, but my approach would be to Spend on Norwell and then fill in with a cheaper mixture of middle of the pack guys and cheap rehabilitation guys like Fluker was this past year.

Then draft for the future.

In comment 13824785 Brown Recluse said:

Quote:

I think Norwell should be a top priority. There are a few less expensive veteran stop gap options out there too. John Sullivan played Center for the Vikings last year and I assume he has a good relationship with Shurmur. He's in the twilight of his career but could be a good 1 or 2 year stopgap on a reasonable deal. Bringing Pugh back makes sense too.

Sullivan's last year with the Vikings was 2014. In 2014, Shurmer was with the Eagles.

I like Sullivan though, but I'm biased since I went to High School with him.

That comes first. The Giants looked like they ran a hodge-podge of schemes and the Olineman looked confused for years. Once you pick one you get players that fit, not just get whomever you can get like fans want you to do.

How to do find hidden gems? First get a player that can do what you do. Coach him up and if he works hard, amazing you found a gem.

Some players are scheme versatile, most are not. We've all heard the term putting a player in a position to be successful. Do it!!!

So if Gettleman is going to fix this team he must get on the same page as Shurmur and find out what Oline blocking schemes he's going to run. Get players that excel at it. Sounds simple but no it's not.

The first question is footwork, if you want dancing elephants they are hard to find. Dancing bears are easier and IMO fit the outside zone best. The outside zone is an amazing scheme that allows smaller nimble Olineman to overpower bigger Dlineman. But it takes footwork and coordination. We've seen Pugh and Richburg fail to do that, in a pure outside zone they should. I'm guessing that Pugh knows this and wants to go to a team that uses that scheme.

I think the dearth of quality Olineman in the NFL is their own fault. The schemes are too complex and they want YUGE men to be very nimble, those types are few. They want you to punch like Mike Tyson and dance like Ali at the same time.

Look at film of the Denver Broncos under Shanahan. They took smaller nimble Olineman and good but average backs that could run in that scheme. Denver ground out great running attacks. The players all fit the scheme perfectly and it worked.

This mixing of man and zone, inside and outside zone even on the same play doesn't work. The defenses know what's coming most all of the time keep it simple, let them play to their strengths and gel as a unit.

is that once Eli is gone they will have a lot of cap room to address other needs for 3-4 years. If they sign Solder and Norwell then they push the cap hit to later years to fit both under this years cap along with a new deal for Beckham and Collins. Then in rounds 3 on they could add a developmental OT like a Desmond Harrison or Alex Cappa type that could provide depth for a couple of seasons before taking over for Solder when he begins to break down.

and then add several lesser FA offensive linemen that can start for a year to allow the Giants to finish fixing the offensive line in next years FA draft.
Re-sign: Brett Jones and Fluker
Sign Norwell, Chris Hubbard, Ty Neskhe, and John Sullivan in FA
Draft OT Desmond Harrison in round 3, G/T Wyatt Heller in round 4
The OL next season
LT Wheeler/Nsekhe/Harrison
LG Norwell/Heller
C Sullivan/Jones
RG Fluker/Flowers/Heller
RT Flowers/Hubbard

Still a good option though.

I'm hoping at least 1 will still be there.

If Jason Peters gets cut, I'd take a shot on him. Shurmur knows Joe Berger from the Vikings, and he can play center and either guard spot.

Assuming Price isn't there, one of

Hernandez, Wynn or Daniels.

In comment 13824829 jeff57 said:

Quote:

If Jason Peters gets cut, I'd take a shot on him. Shurmur knows Joe Berger from the Vikings, and he can play center and either guard spot.

Nick Easton is a more attractive option. He is only 26 and he can play both guard and center. He played very well for the Vikings at LG last season and he could be a breakout candidate.

In comment 13824825 njm said:

Quote:

I'm hoping at least 1 will still be there.

If Wynn is there they Giants have to take him regardless of what they do in free agency. He is going to be a stud guard for a long time.

(a real big IF)
then to me Sy's analysis suggests trading down.
Grab the best avail OL (without spending #2) and a very good RB.
This would start filling the DG/PS vision for "run/stop the run".

have been acquired via FA, e.g., going back to Ron Stone, Lomas Brown, Sean O'Hara, McKenzie. Even Baas, though career was short, was good enough in '11.

Would love to bring in a couple including Norwell. And I think DG and Shurm will do much better job of identifying OL talent than we've had for a while.

is how it takes 3+ years for college OL to adjust to the pro game, if at all. If that's true, and not some nonsense peddled by the Giants mouthpieces over the past few years to justify that dynamic duo's lack of development, then we simply cannot rely on the draft to fix the line.

We need to bring in free agents who can contribute at a high(er) level immediately, which is going to be costly. But is necessary.

In comment 13824747 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said: Quote: but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market? They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years.

The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though.

And outside of Snacks, it hasn't really worked out for us. Forcing ~100M in guarantees on the OL in seller's market just seems like a recipe for longterm mediocrity to me. I'm not saying we shouldn't dip into the pool at all, but we should be smart and pick our spots. Solder is a guy that strikes me as a huge risk, he's been pretty up and down while dealing with injuries. Signing Pugh to a team friendly deal is a pipe dream as well, he's going to seek out top dollar and most likely get it.

In comment 13824838 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

In comment 13824829 jeff57 said: Quote: If Jason Peters gets cut, I'd take a shot on him. Shurmur knows Joe Berger from the Vikings, and he can play center and either guard spot. Nick Easton is a more attractive option. He is only 26 and he can play both guard and center. He played very well for the Vikings at LG last season and he could be a breakout candidate.

He's a restricted FA I believe

seems a must unless they love Barkley so much or Chubb. Trade down...get more picks, lower 1st round pick and take your OL.

Problem I have is that almost every draft roundup I have read has Quenton Nelson in the top 10. I know Sy doesn't think much of Nelson so is everybody else wrong?

In comment 13824923 jeff57 said:

Quote:

In comment 13824838 Jay on the Island said: Quote: In comment 13824829 jeff57 said: Quote: If Jason Peters gets cut, I'd take a shot on him. Shurmur knows Joe Berger from the Vikings, and he can play center and either guard spot. Nick Easton is a more attractive option. He is only 26 and he can play both guard and center. He played very well for the Vikings at LG last season and he could be a breakout candidate. He's a restricted FA I believe

I just saw that. It will be interesting to see what level he is tendered at. I assume he will get a 2nd round tender, which he is not worth signing then, but if he is tendered at the lowest level then he can be signed without any compensation as he is a former UDFA.

In comment 13824897 regulator said:

Quote:

is how it takes 3+ years for college OL to adjust to the pro game, if at all. If that's true, and not some nonsense peddled by the Giants mouthpieces over the past few years to justify that dynamic duo's lack of development, then we simply cannot rely on the draft to fix the line. We need to bring in free agents who can contribute at a high(er) level immediately, which is going to be costly. But is necessary.

The 3+ years of development is horseshit. Us fans have become indoctrinated in the Giants inability to draft/develop lineman for so long that our view in tainted. Last year we were told by numerous respected posters that there were no OL worth drafting. Yet, Cam Robinson is playing LT in the AFC Championship game. Ryan Ramczyk played in the divisional round of playoffs for the Saints.

the breathtaking incompetence of the previous front office is a low bar, and the change of administration alone would help.

Personally, I'd get rid of the whole bunch like Minnesota did last season; none of these people are irreplaceable and they all stink. None of them are worth keeping just because they are here already.

Failing that, there should be a crowd of FA, UDFA and draft choices to compete with the leftovers for jobs. The best 7 or 8 stay, the rest, whether vets here or not, goodbye.

Morning guys: Interesting discussion as usual. Let me agree with Sy that it is highly unlikely that the Giants 'fix' the OL via the 2018 draft and any upgrades will ahve to come through free agency.

However I have a slightly different take on the OL and FA. The fact is you don't need a great OL to be effective in the NFL. What you need is a good competent group and then your skill players take over. Stated another way, there is really only a marginal difference in winnability in the NFL when you go from a good to a very good to an elite offense line. Compare that with QB where a good QB gets you to .500, a very good one gets you to the playoffs and an elite one gets you to the Super Bowl on multiple occasions. same with DEs where a good DE doesn't really help all that much.

Bottom line is that you really don't need to invest $10-12M in one pro bowl OG; you need 5-6 guys that simply know how to play the game. In that sense, it is very possible that the Giants can do what Minnesota did last year and that is rebuild a competitive line by signing a number of mid-priced OL.

Speaking of the draft, though, as several people have mentioned there is a good chance that a G/C type like Hernandez, Price or Wynn is available at #34 and that would certainly help. The problem going forward for the Giants though is assuming they take a QB at #2 this year (and for the record that's what they are going to do) they are likely going to need both a new LT (those guys just don't come free in FA) and at least one and maybe two DEs in 2019. Those are both first round positions so when I do mocks I am always looking at one of those two to get a head start on next year; i.e., I think the Giants look at those G/Cs if like a Chris Snee they are imply too talented to pass on but don't take an interior OL just for need. Should be a really interesting off-season.

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

Team has plenty of cap space and can create more.

Have a chance to make a jump and be a legit starter? Maybe a guy like Wheeler?

Also, am I wrong in my thinking that the interior positions in this draft are much stronger than the tackle position?

In comment 13824897 regulator said:

Quote:

is how it takes 3+ years for college OL to adjust to the pro game, if at all. If that's true, and not some nonsense peddled by the Giants mouthpieces over the past few years to justify that dynamic duo's lack of development, then we simply cannot rely on the draft to fix the line. We need to bring in free agents who can contribute at a high(er) level immediately, which is going to be costly. But is necessary.

Hart blew chunks and the new FO performed a public service throwing him out. Flowers is a bum who is doing the same things in the same way as was stated in his draft report. He was a bust at #9 and it is time to admit it. Fluker is the kind of failed #1 pick to which Jerry Reach was drawn like flies to stink. He can't pass block and if he can't pass block, he's near worthless to us. Pugh is a mediocrity- not great at anything. After watching Kelce in the SB, our centers are laughable. The rest are not even worth discussing.

The message for the hangers on has to be: "competition is coming; seriously up your game or you will be hitting the bricks."

In comment 13824952 Colin@gbn said:

Quote:

Morning guys: Interesting discussion as usual. Let me agree with Sy that it is highly unlikely that the Giants 'fix' the OL via the 2018 draft and any upgrades will ahve to come through free agency. However I have a slightly different take on the OL and FA. The fact is you don't need a great OL to be effective in the NFL. What you need is a good competent group and then your skill players take over. Stated another way, there is really only a marginal difference in winnability in the NFL when you go from a good to a very good to an elite offense line. Compare that with QB where a good QB gets you to .500, a very good one gets you to the playoffs and an elite one gets you to the Super Bowl on multiple occasions. same with DEs where a good DE doesn't really help all that much. Bottom line is that you really don't need to invest $10-12M in one pro bowl OG; you need 5-6 guys that simply know how to play the game. In that sense, it is very possible that the Giants can do what Minnesota did last year and that is rebuild a competitive line by signing a number of mid-priced OL. Speaking of the draft, though, as several people have mentioned there is a good chance that a G/C type like Hernandez, Price or Wynn is available at #34 and that would certainly help. The problem going forward for the Giants though is assuming they take a QB at #2 this year (and for the record that's what they are going to do) they are likely going to need both a new LT (those guys just don't come free in FA) and at least one and maybe two DEs in 2019. Those are both first round positions so when I do mocks I am always looking at one of those two to get a head start on next year; i.e., I think the Giants look at those G/Cs if like a Chris Snee they are imply too talented to pass on but don't take an interior OL just for need. Should be a really interesting off-season.

Good post Colin.

But, no way Pugh signs a "Team Friendly" deal. He has been talking about getting paid for a few years now and some team will pay him.

Like the interior lineman a lot better. They'll have to get an LT in FA. If not Solder, then a cap casualty.

Some team is going to pay Pugh reasonably big bucks. You may not think so, but it's going to happen. It's just the way it is because of supply and demand, and because Pugh has already trumpeted that it's about the money all year long. He is also, talent-wise, one of the best OGs on the FA market, and he's a swing tackle too. The risk with him is keeping him on the field, not his talent. I just don't think that the Giants are going to be willing to pay him what he thinks he's worth, hence he will sign elsewhere.

is Gettleman has a pretty good track record of building an o-line without relying on just high draft picks and/or high-priced UFAs. He's found quality from UDFAs (Norwell), other team's practice squads (Mike Remmers), and mid-round picks (Daryl Williams, 4th round.)

In comment 13825008 gidiefor said:

Quote:

Some team is going to pay Pugh reasonably big bucks. You may not think so, but it's going to happen. It's just the way it is because of supply and demand, and because Pugh has already trumpeted that it's about the money all year long. He is also, talent-wise, one of the best OGs on the FA market, and he's a swing tackle too. The risk with him is keeping him on the field, not his talent. I just don't think that the Giants are going to be willing to pay him what he thinks he's worth, hence he will sign elsewhere.

Good let somebody else overpay him for his 11 games a year of at best mediocrity.

-Drafted Trai Turner in the third round 2014: two-time pro bowler.

-Signed Michael Oher to a bargain-basement contract in 2015: was starting LT on a Super Bowl team, only allowing four sacks and drawing three penalties all season. The negative here is that DG gave Mr. Blindside a large second contract before recurring concussions ended his career shortly after.

I think Colin is right about this. No matter how much we may drool over Barkley and Chubb.

It's not a regular draft QB wise. There are at least 6 legitimate first round QB options this year. There hasn't been more than 2 legitimate first round QBs in any draft class since Eli was drafted. It makes sense to go with the strength of the draft, and Darnold and Rosen, are both very strong and legitimate candidates at 2, Allen may be as well.

I also think trading-down is probably not the best move to make. I love Eli - but having a franchise QB in the wings behind him now is smart football management. The draft is really about thinking down the road. I do think the Giants will also draft LBs, OLs and DBs this year.

The only thing that tingles at the back of my neck is losing out on Chubb -- Barkley as good as he is will not fix the Giants -- but Chubb could.

In comment 13824777 superspynyg said:

Quote:

Knocking on the doors of Andrew Norwell and Nate Solder, hard. I know the chance he might not leave is a concern but if he hits the FA market, which he should if he wants more money then we should hit it hard Norwell and Soldier would turn this oline into a legit unit. Then we add either Price (OSU) in Rd 2 or Cole (UM ) in rd 3 for center or at least RT Guard and back up center. Oline becomes Solder-Norwell-Jones(at lease at first)-Price/Cole-Wheeler/Flowers or Solder -Norwell-Price/Jones-Flowers-Wheeler or Solder-Norwell-Jones-Cole-FLowers If we don't get Solder then resign Fluker Wheeler-Norwell-Price/Jones-Fluker-Flowers

I like Price in Round 2, or Isaiah Wynn. But, if we don't get Solder, I think the Giants should try to get the best OT on the board at the top of rd2. There should be some guys who can start on the board still at that point.

Rookie 2nd Rd- Norwell- Jones- Fluker- Flowers/Wheeler.

Sign a vet swing tackle like Cameron Fleming or Chris Hubbard

I'm of the opinion that the right big money guy....
Britt in VA : 8:50 am : link : reply
and perhaps a thrifty value veteran to insert between Flowers, Richburg, and Pugh could do wonders.

I think they still have talent. They're not so hot next to each other, but with a vet in between them, that could shore things up.

Two of those guys can't stay on the field, and will want big money after their rookie contracts.....and the other guy sucks....

As for Solder, there is talk he is thinking of retiring, due to the injuries he has had....and if he doesn't, he will be asking for the moon...

As Sy said, you don't use the #2 pick on an OLman.....we still don't know if we are going to pick a QB yet, which means a draft pick that won't see the field, and provide immediate help.....and if you trade down, you have to find a team willing to make a serious move with you.....drafted OLmen may start, but will take years to develop....well, if you are a drafted Giant OLman that is....

for Giants to not take QB if they have great conviction on one. Should definitely have the chance at Rosen, and then either Darnold/Allen whichever Browns pass on.

I'm thinking Darnold is the guy if Browns go Allen at 1.

Nate Solder - He's risky because he's getting older and he's the only quality LT in the FA class. He likely could become the top paid OL in the NFL. Without signing Solder, or barring a trade, it seems likely the Giants head into the draft with Wheeler and Flowers as the possible LTs. There simply aren't any mid tier LTs in FA. In terms of the draft, I think the odds are any potential plug and play LT will go in Round 1.

Andrew Norwell - He's likely to command a large contract, potentially $12m a year, and he should. He's young and one of the best left guards in football. However, left guard isn't as difficult a position to fill and there are mid-tier guys available in free agency. Additionally, there should be guys available in the draft who could be quality starting guards in the NFL.

I'll be very interested to see how the Giants handle this. I would probably sign Norwell and not sign Solder (unless it's a more reasonable deal) and then look to draft two to three offensive linemen in the draft. I would even consider trading back into Round 1 to get a left tackle.

In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?

if we don't this team will look exactly as it did last season....

In comment 13824777 superspynyg said:

Quote:

Knocking on the doors of Andrew Norwell and Nate Solder, hard. I know the chance he might not leave is a concern but if he hits the FA market, which he should if he wants more money then we should hit it hard Norwell and Soldier would turn this oline into a legit unit. Then we add either Price (OSU) in Rd 2 or Cole (UM ) in rd 3 for center or at least RT Guard and back up center. Oline becomes Solder-Norwell-Jones(at lease at first)-Price/Cole-Wheeler/Flowers or Solder -Norwell-Price/Jones-Flowers-Wheeler or Solder-Norwell-Jones-Cole-FLowers If we don't get Solder then resign Fluker Wheeler-Norwell-Price/Jones-Fluker-Flowers

I don't see a place for Flowers on this team, he's a minor-league talent.

in at LT unless he's an exceptional player.
If the Giants somehow re-sign Pugh, let him and Wheeler battle it out for LT for 2018. Then put Flowers at RG or RT, whatever works better.

If Wheeler has gotten stronger this off season, it will be a HUGE benefit to the team. He played well (with some help) last year. Bisnowaty was put at RT with no help at all.

Not seeing the value in spending $10M+ per on an OG, especially when he's not blue chip and you don't have a LT anchor.

Does not only hinge on Free Agency. That's nonsense.

There's 3 avenues we'll have to take to fix this OL. ALL three avenues will need to be explored.

-Free Agency
-Trade
-Draft

NO ONE can really predict the draft. We'll have our shot at good players its just up to DG and company to find them. There's veterans potentially available for trade and there's veterans outside of the top guys like Solder and Norwell that could help us. Again, its up to DG and his cronies to find them.

In comment 13825213 Peppers said:

Quote:

Does not only hinge on Free Agency. That's nonsense. There's 3 avenues we'll have to take to fix this OL. ALL three avenues will need to be explored. -Free Agency -Trade -Draft

We have no signed tradeable players.

In comment 13824952 Colin@gbn said:

Quote:

Morning guys: Interesting discussion as usual. Let me agree with Sy that it is highly unlikely that the Giants 'fix' the OL via the 2018 draft and any upgrades will ahve to come through free agency. However I have a slightly different take on the OL and FA. The fact is you don't need a great OL to be effective in the NFL. What you need is a good competent group and then your skill players take over. Stated another way, there is really only a marginal difference in winnability in the NFL when you go from a good to a very good to an elite offense line. Compare that with QB where a good QB gets you to .500, a very good one gets you to the playoffs and an elite one gets you to the Super Bowl on multiple occasions. same with DEs where a good DE doesn't really help all that much. Bottom line is that you really don't need to invest $10-12M in one pro bowl OG; you need 5-6 guys that simply know how to play the game. In that sense, it is very possible that the Giants can do what Minnesota did last year and that is rebuild a competitive line by signing a number of mid-priced OL. Speaking of the draft, though, as several people have mentioned there is a good chance that a G/C type like Hernandez, Price or Wynn is available at #34 and that would certainly help. The problem going forward for the Giants though is assuming they take a QB at #2 this year (and for the record that's what they are going to do) they are likely going to need both a new LT (those guys just don't come free in FA) and at least one and maybe two DEs in 2019. Those are both first round positions so when I do mocks I am always looking at one of those two to get a head start on next year; i.e., I think the Giants look at those G/Cs if like a Chris Snee they are imply too talented to pass on but don't take an interior OL just for need. Should be a really interesting off-season.

The Eagles just won the Super Bowl with a backup QB and one of the best OL’s in football.

Getting “5-6 guys who simply know how to play the game,” whatever that means, is easier said than done.

The good OL’s around the league typically have a combination of FAs, an early pick or two, and some mid to late rounders that pan out. So the answer for the Giants isn’t going to be load up on FAs or draft all OL.

because I have great respect for them and the value they add to this site. However, we heard last year's draft was lousy for the OL but there was value to be found and some player who were constantly over analyzed for their flaws may have turned out better than anticipated. Maybe, I'm wrong here but I'm thinking Ramcyzkh and Robinson were better than expected. This year's draft now is supposed to be below average for OL? I'm sure there is still value to be found that can come in and play markedly better than what we have been forced to endure the last five years.

I guess this raises the larger question of whether we want to pay Solder $10-12 million dollars for each of the next four years.

In comment 13825222 mrvax said:

Quote:

In comment 13825213 Peppers said: Quote: Does not only hinge on Free Agency. That's nonsense. There's 3 avenues we'll have to take to fix this OL. ALL three avenues will need to be explored. -Free Agency -Trade -Draft We have no signed tradeable players.

We have assets (players or picks).. The notion this roster is so depleted in talent has no base.

Would be a good fairly cheap pickup. Coolet constantly gave him good grades I his weekly breakdown and he can probably be had fir 5 mill a year

not every NFL player knows how to play the game in the sense they're at their best, and contributing to a cohesive, high output unit. Some are just big guys who can move ok, some get by on their physical talents, but put no extra work into their craft. It's just a job to them. Lots of variables just like in every day life where you work with people who don't necessarily know how to do their job.

Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth.

In comment 13824910 Andy in Boston said:

Quote:

In comment 13824747 Sy'56 said: Quote: In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said: Quote: but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market? They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years. The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though.

I think you are going to have to choose 1 of those guys.

In comment 13825252 JonC said:

Quote:

not every NFL player knows how to play the game in the sense they're at their best, and contributing to a cohesive, high output unit. Some are just big guys who can move ok, some get by on their physical talents, but put no extra work into their craft. It's just a job to them. Lots of variables just like in every day life where you work with people who don't necessarily know how to do their job. Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth.

He’s also saying just do what Minny did like it’s some easy boilerplate formula to replicate.

Besides, that OL got their asses kicked by Philly so I’m not so sure that’s the model we want to go with playing them twice a year.

In comment 13825247 Reb8thVA said:

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because I have great respect for them and the value they add to this site. However, we heard last year's draft was lousy for the OL but there was value to be found and some player who were constantly over analyzed for their flaws may have turned out better than anticipated. Maybe, I'm wrong here but I'm thinking Ramcyzkh and Robinson were better than expected. This year's draft now is supposed to be below average for OL? I'm sure there is still value to be found that can come in and play markedly better than what we have been forced to endure the last five years. I guess this raises the larger question of whether we want to pay Solder $10-12 million dollars for each of the next four years.

Last year is actually a great example. Robinson and Ramzcyk played very well. No way did you want to take them at #2, and I don't think they would be available when NYG is on the clock in the 2nd round. So that is the issue here...those caliber guys are not likely to be there in the 2nd Round, so you are talking round 3 for a rookie fix on this OL. And in addition to that you don't want to spend money on veterans that are proven?

Plenty were saying Andrew Whitworth was too old and expensive last year. Rams were very fortunate to have him.

Any scenario with Wheeler or Flowers penned in as the LT is a joke. Flowers we know about and Wheeler is raw and while he played OK in spurts is still a big question mark. You are not going to put him as LT to protect the QBs blind spot.

In comment 13825270 WillVAB said:

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In comment 13825252 JonC said: Quote: not every NFL player knows how to play the game in the sense they're at their best, and contributing to a cohesive, high output unit. Some are just big guys who can move ok, some get by on their physical talents, but put no extra work into their craft. It's just a job to them. Lots of variables just like in every day life where you work with people who don't necessarily know how to do their job. Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth. He’s also saying just do what Minny did like it’s some easy boilerplate formula to replicate. Besides, that OL got their asses kicked by Philly so I’m not so sure that’s the model we want to go with playing them twice a year.

They're not great or poor examples, perhaps you're being a bit too literal.

In comment 13825259 Sy'56 said:

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In comment 13824910 Andy in Boston said: Quote: In comment 13824747 Sy'56 said: Quote: In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said: Quote: but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market? They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years. The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though. I think you are going to have to choose 1 of those guys.

Then it would be a bad decision to overpay for FA OL.

Beckham and Collins are elite players. Solder isn’t.

In comment 13825305 WillVAB said:

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In comment 13825259 Sy'56 said: Quote: In comment 13824910 Andy in Boston said: Quote: In comment 13824747 Sy'56 said: Quote: In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said: Quote: but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market? They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years. The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though. I think you are going to have to choose 1 of those guys. Then it would be a bad decision to overpay for FA OL. Beckham and Collins are elite players. Solder isn’t.

That's the precise point I've tried to make, can't pay elite dollars to non-elite talent, especially out of desperation.

In comment 13825304 JonC said:

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In comment 13825270 WillVAB said: Quote: In comment 13825252 JonC said: Quote: not every NFL player knows how to play the game in the sense they're at their best, and contributing to a cohesive, high output unit. Some are just big guys who can move ok, some get by on their physical talents, but put no extra work into their craft. It's just a job to them. Lots of variables just like in every day life where you work with people who don't necessarily know how to do their job. Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth. He’s also saying just do what Minny did like it’s some easy boilerplate formula to replicate. Besides, that OL got their asses kicked by Philly so I’m not so sure that’s the model we want to go with playing them twice a year. They're not great or poor examples, perhaps you're being a bit too literal.

Colin’s opening point in paragraph 2 is that you don’t need a great OL. I vehemently disagree with this premise and the results bear my position out.

How you get there is open for debate.

In comment 13825315 WillVAB said:

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In comment 13825304 JonC said: Quote: In comment 13825270 WillVAB said: Quote: In comment 13825252 JonC said: Quote: not every NFL player knows how to play the game in the sense they're at their best, and contributing to a cohesive, high output unit. Some are just big guys who can move ok, some get by on their physical talents, but put no extra work into their craft. It's just a job to them. Lots of variables just like in every day life where you work with people who don't necessarily know how to do their job. Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth. He’s also saying just do what Minny did like it’s some easy boilerplate formula to replicate. Besides, that OL got their asses kicked by Philly so I’m not so sure that’s the model we want to go with playing them twice a year. They're not great or poor examples, perhaps you're being a bit too literal. Colin’s opening point in paragraph 2 is that you don’t need a great OL. I vehemently disagree with this premise and the results bear my position out. How you get there is open for debate.

2011 Giants OL says hello ... Colin's not really wrong.

In comment 13825305 WillVAB said:

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In comment 13825259 Sy'56 said: Quote: In comment 13824910 Andy in Boston said: Quote: In comment 13824747 Sy'56 said: Quote: In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said: Quote: but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market? They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years. The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though. I think you are going to have to choose 1 of those guys. Then it would be a bad decision to overpay for FA OL. Beckham and Collins are elite players. Solder isn’t.

I don't think Collins is in the elite tier....

and the better OL is the preferred destination, but teams win the NFL without an elite OL in terms of talent.

In comment 13825315 WillVAB said:

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Colin’s opening point in paragraph 2 is that you don’t need a great OL. I vehemently disagree with this premise and the results bear my position out. How you get there is open for debate.

I don't know how you can say that when the Giants won the SB in 2011 with a very bad offensive line. They finished dead last in rushing that year mainly because of the play of the offensive line. Diehl, Snee, and McKenzie had forks sticking out of their back and Diehl was forced to start at LT with two broken hands IIRC because of the injury to Beatty. Baas and Boothe were both below average starters as well. Eli does not get the respect he deserves for winning with that offensive line.

I wasn't saying that the Giants can win with the line they have. They need upgrades but I think the point Colin was trying to make was that you don't need a dominant line to compete. The line of Diehl Seubert O'Hara Snee and McKenzie was one of the better lines in football despite not being the most talented with the exception of Snee.

The draft will be for upgrades.

of these mid tier FA offensive linemen. I am not talking about an all-pro I mean finding the next O'Hara, Seubert, or McKenzie. Whether that's Chris Hubbard, Cameron Fleming, Nick Easton, Jack Mewhort, Zach Fulton, Andrew Tiller, Senio Kelemete, Josh Kline, Travis Swanson, Ryan Jensen, Spencer Long, Wesley Johnson, etc.

In comment 13825327 JonC said:

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and the better OL is the preferred destination, but teams win the NFL without an elite OL in terms of talent.

You said it yourself, countless examples in both directions. It really isn't a good argument for/against any case.

I don't think NYG needs every top tier guy, but they should attempt to get at least 1 or 2. They literally have nothing here if Pugh leaves, and this regime can't make the same mistake the last one did. The OL needs to be a strength if you are relying on an old QB with declining skill sets and no RB.

In comment 13825392 Sy'56 said:

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In comment 13825327 JonC said: Quote: and the better OL is the preferred destination, but teams win the NFL without an elite OL in terms of talent. You said it yourself, countless examples in both directions. It really isn't a good argument for/against any case. I don't think NYG needs every top tier guy, but they should attempt to get at least 1 or 2. They literally have nothing here if Pugh leaves, and this regime can't make the same mistake the last one did. The OL needs to be a strength if you are relying on an old QB with declining skill sets and no RB.

No argument from me on the concept. The problem is the top tier guys available aren't worth the open market dollars, imv. Perhaps it's the optimizer in my personality, but paying Norwell $10M+ per makes me nuts.

In comment 13825328 Jay on the Island said:

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In comment 13825315 WillVAB said: Quote: Colin’s opening point in paragraph 2 is that you don’t need a great OL. I vehemently disagree with this premise and the results bear my position out. How you get there is open for debate. I don't know how you can say that when the Giants won the SB in 2011 with a very bad offensive line. They finished dead last in rushing that year mainly because of the play of the offensive line. Diehl, Snee, and McKenzie had forks sticking out of their back and Diehl was forced to start at LT with two broken hands IIRC because of the injury to Beatty. Baas and Boothe were both below average starters as well. Eli does not get the respect he deserves for winning with that offensive line.

‘11 was an anomaly. The fact that Reese tried to duplicate that model until he was fired with zero success supports this.

Look at the teams in the playoffs this year. They all had very good OL play in ‘17.

Trying to skate by with bargain FAs and late round projects doesn’t work.

In comment 13825402 JonC said:

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In comment 13825392 Sy'56 said: Quote: In comment 13825327 JonC said: Quote: and the better OL is the preferred destination, but teams win the NFL without an elite OL in terms of talent. You said it yourself, countless examples in both directions. It really isn't a good argument for/against any case. I don't think NYG needs every top tier guy, but they should attempt to get at least 1 or 2. They literally have nothing here if Pugh leaves, and this regime can't make the same mistake the last one did. The OL needs to be a strength if you are relying on an old QB with declining skill sets and no RB. No argument from me on the concept. The problem is the top tier guys available aren't worth the open market dollars, imv. Perhaps it's the optimizer in my personality, but paying Norwell $10M+ per makes me nuts.

Andrew Whitworth....

and win a SB with a below average OL - but it's tough to sustain success over time. Eli played out of his mind in 2011, and Nicks had an amazing playoff run too. You catch lightning in a bottle and it can happen.

The ironic point is that our best OL years were probably the years which we didn't make any noise in the playoffs, or even make the playoffs.

I agree with Colin in that a cohesive, OK to solid OL and a great QB is a much better solution.

The cap goes up every year...$10 Mil per year isn't what it used to be.

Tough call, I didn't really have a problem passing on him at age 35/36 wanting a 3 year deal.

I don't see his clone among this crop though, and that's the rub. Giants were ready to draft Solder ahead of Prince and now he might be available, but what's his price tag going to be?

on a four-year $10 to $12 million a year deal, they should jump on it.

In comment 13825430 jeff57 said:

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on a four-year $10 to $12 million a year deal, they should jump on it.

I'd be onboard with that, provided his medicals are solid.

I mean there's always a risk in FA, but he doesn't really have any warts. He's young, he doesn't miss games and he plays at a high level. I don't have a problem dropping an anchor in the middle of that line for 12m/yr and piecemealing the rest together with older vets/bargains/draft picks. The Giants just need to be cognizant of the amount of risk they take on, so I'd prefer if they picked their spot among Norwell, Solder and Pugh.

Big time bucks. I can't see DG going this route. When he talks about watching tons of tape I bet he plans on signing several guys we haven't really noticed. He will put them together with young guys like Flowers, Wheeler, Jones and let the coaches mold the best OL possible. Minnesota did that (and Shurmur was there to witness it). And yes what scheme they want to run will dictate what type of guy they want to go after. Names are great for us but it's probably not their approach

In comment 13825467 Dave on the UWS said:

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Big time bucks. I can't see DG going this route. When he talks about watching tons of tape I bet he plans on signing several guys we haven't really noticed. He will put them together with young guys like Flowers, Wheeler, Jones and let the coaches mold the best OL possible. Minnesota did that (and Shurmur was there to witness it). And yes what scheme they want to run will dictate what type of guy they want to go after. Names are great for us but it's probably not their approach

Vikings added Reiff and Remmers in FA, and drafted Elflien. 3/r of their line was new

In comment 13825467 Dave on the UWS said:

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Big time bucks. I can't see DG going this route. When he talks about watching tons of tape I bet he plans on signing several guys we haven't really noticed. He will put them together with young guys like Flowers, Wheeler, Jones and let the coaches mold the best OL possible. Minnesota did that (and Shurmur was there to witness it). And yes what scheme they want to run will dictate what type of guy they want to go after. Names are great for us but it's probably not their approach

DG signed guard Trai Turner to a $11+ million deal. I think he wouldn't hesitate to sign Norwell to that or higher.

raise the issue that the giants needs exceed just an 'o' line. In no particular order giants need healthy pass rushing DE's, all types of lb'ers but especially those who are more than 2 down players, a free safety and more in the d backfield, etc etc.

My point is we can't put all our resources only into the O line. in truth we will not be SB competitive for 3-5 years at best

.

I cant see any other clear upgrade at LT and signing him allows Flowers to move possibly improving 2 spots with 1 move.

Make a run at Norwell if we cant get him bring fluker and jones back.

I dont think we will find a LT in the 2nd but could find a guard or RT. Solder-Norwell-Jones with Flowers and a rookie on the right side

In comment 13825467 Dave on the UWS said:

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Big time bucks. I can't see DG going this route.

Why so? Nothing to indicate that he's against spending money. Gave Matt Kalil $55 million over 5 years just this year.

.

In comment 13825593 JonC said:

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.

Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.

respect your opinions a ton...but it seems year over year there's this "not a great OL class" thing with the draft. And yet every year, very good OL are taken.

In comment 13825598 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 13825593 JonC said: Quote: . Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.

LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.

In comment 13825624 JonC said:

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In comment 13825598 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 13825593 JonC said: Quote: . Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit. LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.

Which circles us back to the main point, don't overpay elite dollars to non-elite players.

In comment 13825614 ryanmkeane said:

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respect your opinions a ton...but it seems year over year there's this "not a great OL class" thing with the draft. And yet every year, very good OL are taken.

Bolles had one of the best seasons of all the rookie linemen last year, but you're not going to find many people who were convinced at this time last year that Bolles was going to be someone you could bet on. Linemen are hard to find and harder to scout these days due to the nature of college offense.

In comment 13825624 JonC said:

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In comment 13825598 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 13825593 JonC said: Quote: . Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit. LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.

Look at the contracts guards are getting. 5/60 for Zeitler this year. 5/60 for Osemele the year before.

All those positions get paid. I would argue that something has changed. Guards do get paid now.

In comment 13825633 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 13825614 ryanmkeane said: Quote: respect your opinions a ton...but it seems year over year there's this "not a great OL class" thing with the draft. And yet every year, very good OL are taken. Bolles had one of the best seasons of all the rookie linemen last year, but you're not going to find many people who were convinced at this time last year that Bolles was going to be someone you could bet on. Linemen are hard to find and harder to scout these days due to the nature of college offense.

OK, but my point is that every draft has good OL. It seems on this board, every year, the "OL just isn't good" line comes out during draft time.

Flowers was a blunder. But I think that pick has made lots of people gunshy on OL.

In comment 13825640 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 13825624 JonC said: Quote: In comment 13825598 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 13825593 JonC said: Quote: . Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit. LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent. Look at the contracts guards are getting. 5/60 for Zeitler this year. 5/60 for Osemele the year before. All those positions get paid. I would argue that something has changed. Guards do get paid now.

The $ has changed, but $12M for an OG when you don't have a LT set in place? No thanks, that's short-sighted planning in my book.

You pay to sign Solder or a Whitworth, for example, then the cost of the UFA OG is de-emphasized for me.

Why should risk need be seen as less in one position as opposed to any other? Bolles seemed an OK prospect last year .

Arbitrary rule as to which position to sign or draft first. You cannot dictate what the market brings. Just add a great piece and go from there.

and UFAs based on positions and raw value constantly, it's common strategy and logic.

There's a salary cap to fit it all under.

In comment 13825644 ryanmkeane said:

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In comment 13825633 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 13825614 ryanmkeane said: Quote: respect your opinions a ton...but it seems year over year there's this "not a great OL class" thing with the draft. And yet every year, very good OL are taken. Bolles had one of the best seasons of all the rookie linemen last year, but you're not going to find many people who were convinced at this time last year that Bolles was going to be someone you could bet on. Linemen are hard to find and harder to scout these days due to the nature of college offense. OK, but my point is that every draft has good OL. It seems on this board, every year, the "OL just isn't good" line comes out during draft time.

Every draft has players who turn out good at every position. But, if we go into the draft needing to draft a starter, especially a left tackle, we are in trouble. That would mean our non-1st round pick needs to be an absolute home run.

and projecting a college player to the NFL isn't a slam dunk, what % of first round picks turn into instant starters?

and others for that matter who argue you can never have too many pass rushers because being able to get to the QB is crucial. Wouldn't it stand to reason that protecting the QB is just as important and worthy of the investment?

In comment 13825706 Reb8thVA said:

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and others for that matter who argue you can never have too many pass rushers because being able to get to the QB is crucial. Wouldn't it stand to reason that protecting the QB is just as important and worthy of the investment?

One of Reese's biggest blunders was not replenishing the offensive line earlier. He had Diehl, Snee, and McKenzie all basically break down at the same time. Beatty was in place at LT for Diehl but the Giants didn't have long term options anywhere else on the line. Reese tried to fix the line by using early picks on Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers but by then it was too late and he didn't pick the right players not to mention his failure to sign players like Okung because they didn't want to move Flowers off of LT. Signing and keeping John Jerry as the primary starter was another terrible decision. Had Jerry strictly been depth then that would have been fine but he has proven that he isn't a starting caliber guard. Going into last season with nobody to challenge either Flowers or Hart was the final straw. How he felt comfortable with those two is beyond me.

In comment 13825654 JonC said:

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The $ has changed, but $12M for an OG when you don't have a LT set in place? No thanks, that's short-sighted planning in my book. You pay to sign Solder or a Whitworth, for example, then the cost of the UFA OG is de-emphasized for me.

If you mean by having a top tackle that you don't need to worry as much about the interior of the line? Not sure I agree with that. Whatever your weakness is, that's what the opposing defense is going to exploit. Hell, we root for a team that made it trendy to stack up four defensive ends and exploit the weaker Center-Guard matchups. The Pats just lost it all by letting Brady get pressured right up the middle one time all night.

when staring at big ticket UFA options. In that vein, you've got finite dollars to spend. To me, it doesn't make sense to begin by spending huge on an OG, especially when you're not set at LT.

who more than likely will never hit Free Agency.

Every basic fan base in the NFL in the need of a LT are clamoring at the idea of adding Solder.. If you're New England would you let him walk with no replacement in place? No you wouldn't, thats exactly why you want the Giants to "knock hard on his door". No offense to anyone here but the thought process of this whole thread is without depth or logic.

DG is gonna have his work cut out for him. He'll have to be aggressive and thorough in free agency, the draft, and with trades. Its not as easy as, "Hey lets sign Solder, Norwell and Pugh". Thats so simplistic and honestly, not well thought out at all.

I have an issue w you saying the giants are definitely taking a qb at 2. They may but you don't know that. For you to say you do is disengenious. I still say its far from a slam dunk. Do you have direct knowledge? I just think you should be clear and state that as an opinion because you may very well be wrong

In comment 13824769 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

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In comment 13824764 Jolly Blue Giant said: Quote: I just don't see him leaving NE. His son was just diagnosed with cancer in November. He would have to be away from his family during this tough time, or move the whole family. Moving would disrupt his treatment and they would gave to find a new medical team. Just a gut feeling, but it's not an ordinary situation. You could get him closer to better places for treatment. Seriously, he could live close enough to Philly and the stadium and have his child get some of the best treatment he can have at CHOP.

BCH is no slouch facility - probably on par (or close) with CHOP.

In comment 13825757 jtgiants said:

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I have an issue w you saying the giants are definitely taking a qb at 2. They may but you don't know that. For you to say you do is disengenious. I still say its far from a slam dunk. Do you have direct knowledge? I just think you should be clear and state that as an opinion because you may very well be wrong

The Giants have said all the right things about Eli. What they have said doesn't mean shit. Eli is an older, declining QB coming off a 3-13 season and they are drafting at 2 with franchise QB available. It is EXTREMELY likely they take a QB, a veritable slam dunk. I would be willing to wager something silly like whoever is correct comes to this board effusively worship the prognostic powers of the winner.

Are the exception. Four of the five best O-line teams in the NFL made the playoffs in 2017. The only one that didn't (Dallas) was ravaged by injuries, but still almost made it. The best one, (Philly), just won the Super Bowl.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-week-10-farmer-20171111-story.html

I'd absolutely love to sign both Norwell & Solder, but I don't think we have the cap room to get it done. If we did, I'd recommend a trade-back in the draft to get he Giants O-line in that top-five category.

Don't agree with Sy about not taking Nelson (for example) @ #2 if he's the legitimate BPA at that slot. Nelson is a better prospect than was Lane Johnson (#4 in 2013); Robinson #2, J. Matthews #6, and Lewan #11 in 2014; Scherff #5 in 2015, Conklin #8 in 2016; Bolles #20, Ramczyk in 2017

In comment 13825757 jtgiants said:

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I have an issue w you saying the giants are definitely taking a qb at 2. They may but you don't know that. For you to say you do is disengenious. I still say its far from a slam dunk. Do you have direct knowledge? I just think you should be clear and state that as an opinion because you may very well be wrong

Colin is making deductions here -- he has never claimed to have inside info about it. He explained his rationale - based on how NFL professionals evaluate and value QBs on a different scale than other positions. So you may not agree with him, that's fine, but your issue appears to be offbase because he made his rationale very clear in arriving at his conclusion.

First. I believe eli has plenty of good football in him and think he can still win big in this league. Grateful head. You say he slipped that's your opinion. Nothing more. Hire for. You say he stated his opinion. Reread is post. He spoke on absolute terms that that is what they will do. Look. They may take a qb. To me that's dumb if your keeping eli. You can't be half pregnant. If you keep eli you try to win now or move on. They may take a qb. I love Darnold but wouldn't take Rosen. Its not a slam dunk they take a qb though. If you think it is you may be in for a surprise

he's 39, at which point to say he's got "plenty" left is the peak of wishful thinking to the point where you might as well also clear out your 401K for powerball tickets.

The Giants don't want to pick in the top 5 of the draft again for another 15 years, and I'm fairly certain nobody here wants to experience 3-13 again anytime soon. Which is about what you will need to do to find Eli's replacement, on the assumption that there happens to be a Quarterback out there to be had at the time.

In comment 13825886 Manny in CA said:

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Are the exception. Four of the five best O-line teams in the NFL made the playoffs in 2017. The only one that didn't (Dallas) was ravaged by injuries, but still almost made it. The best one, (Philly), just won the Super Bowl. http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-week-10-farmer-20171111-story.html I'd absolutely love to sign both Norwell & Solder, but I don't think we have the cap room to get it done. If we did, I'd recommend a trade-back in the draft to get he Giants O-line in that top-five category. Don't agree with Sy about not taking Nelson (for example) @ #2 if he's the legitimate BPA at that slot. Nelson is a better prospect than was Lane Johnson (#4 in 2013); Robinson #2, J. Matthews #6, and Lewan #11 in 2014; Scherff #5 in 2015, Conklin #8 in 2016; Bolles #20, Ramczyk in 2017

I love the double standard. Many are willing to spend upwards of $25 Mill of salary cap space on Solder and Norwell but passing on a QB and trading back to draft Nelson ( who is gonna be a stud in the NFL ) is not a viable option.

I like Norwell over Solder if we sign one big OL FA, mainly because he is younger and is an All Pro. But if NYG can land Solder and draft Nelson, that would be a good balance of our resources to fix the O Line.

I don't think I'd love spending that much on offensive line free agents, nor do I think it's necessary whatsoever to put together a massively improved line, but I don't see why you'd pass on the QB for a really good Guard prospect. I love Chris Snee. Awesome player. If you told me Nelson was going to be Chris Snee. He's still not more valuable than a potential franchise quarterback. Eli has one year left on his deal. That's a ton of money coming off the books. They're not in a bleak cap situation anyway.

In comment 13825953 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I don't think I'd love spending that much on offensive line free agents, nor do I think it's necessary whatsoever to put together a massively improved line, but I don't see why you'd pass on the QB for a really good Guard prospect. I love Chris Snee. Awesome player. If you told me Nelson was going to be Chris Snee. He's still not more valuable than a potential franchise quarterback. Eli has one year left on his deal. That's a ton of money coming off the books. They're not in a bleak cap situation anyway.

Provided either Solder or Norwell become available I completely agree with you. However, it seems to me like we are gonna have to pay Beckham before the season starts. Are they able to do all 3? Assume Beckham gets an Antonio Brown type of contract, I would imagine we would want the biggest hit of that bill to be paid when Eli is gone. Is there a way to do that?

for 11-12 million he would. But you’re talking about a 26 yr old who made the pro bowl. He’s getting aLOT more than that. Gettleman can’t afford to blow all his FA dollars on one guy

In comment 13825960 mattyblue said:

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In comment 13825953 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: I don't think I'd love spending that much on offensive line free agents, nor do I think it's necessary whatsoever to put together a massively improved line, but I don't see why you'd pass on the QB for a really good Guard prospect. I love Chris Snee. Awesome player. If you told me Nelson was going to be Chris Snee. He's still not more valuable than a potential franchise quarterback. Eli has one year left on his deal. That's a ton of money coming off the books. They're not in a bleak cap situation anyway. Provided either Solder or Norwell become available I completely agree with you. However, it seems to me like we are gonna have to pay Beckham before the season starts. Are they able to do all 3? Assume Beckham gets an Antonio Brown type of contract, I would imagine we would want the biggest hit of that bill to be paid when Eli is gone. Is there a way to do that?

The nuts and bolts of capology aren't my thing, but the only contract that's absolutely an immovable object right now is JPP, and they just have to eat that until they have flexibility there. I'm not saying I'd be all for these moves, but just as an example, they save $4m if they cut Marshall, and around another 4 if they part with DRC.

Sign Solder & draft Nelson (especially in a trade-back), which would give us the ability to get Will Hernandez the guard from UTEP. He's a natural power RG.

I don't know if he can play center if so, we keep Fluker at RG.

I have ZERO interest in drafting a QB, we have a Super Bowl QB veteran and an excellent prospect on the roster.

TTH. I too have never been one to really understand the cap and the different ways you can manipulate it.

In comment 13825967 Dave on the UWS said:

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for 11-12 million he would. But you’re talking about a 26 yr old who made the pro bowl. He’s getting aLOT more than that. Gettleman can’t afford to blow all his FA dollars on one guy

12.4 is the highest number in the league, which Zeitler got last season as a 26 year old . Norwell will be the new highest paid guard, but it's not going to be a LOT more than that. It's not going to be something in the low Quarterback money tier.

And besides, it's not the dollar value that matters, it's how the contract is structured. Despite signing for 5/$60 with 31m guaranteed, Zeitler's cap hit was 8.4 last season.

In comment 13825981 Manny in CA said:

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Sign Solder & draft Nelson (especially in a trade-back), which would give us the ability to get Will Hernandez the guard from UTEP. He's a natural power RG. I don't know if he can play center if so, we keep Fluker at RG. I have ZERO interest in drafting a QB, we have a Super Bowl QB veteran and an excellent prospect on the roster.

No offense intended but I really think you are gonna be disappointed. I think the chances Giants draft a QB is extremely high.

He spent 2 1st rou d picks and 1 2nd over 3 co secutive years on the OL. He signed veterans he expected to play at a high level in Baas and Schwartz. The problem is he struck out on 4 of those 5 and the 5th (Pugh) just can't stay healthy. He also struck out on a few other FA moves, but they were guys intended to provide depth and were thrust into significant starting roles.

Where I think Reese blew the OL was the last couple of years. It was obvious the OL was in tatters a couple of years ago and for two off seasons be was perfectly fine with Jerry starting, not even considering replacing Flowers o. The left side, etc.

So, over about 4 fo 5 years he did address tbe OL and failed. Then the laat couple he truly ignored the OL in the draft and FA, at least in terms of upgrading the starters.

About a QB being drafted in the 1st round (and that guy will be administered a physical beating). In the mean-time, the foundation of the team (the O-line keeps getting ignored), the window-of-opportunity is lost and back to mediocrity we go.

And, Matt Reese did try, but he got screwed on draft day when we lost Brandon Scherff in 2015 and Jack Conklin in 2016.

And now Dave Gettleman is going to be the 2nd coming of Jerry Reese; maybe "it's just in the cards " (fate, some call it)

In comment 13826077 Manny in CA said:

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About a QB being drafted in the 1st round (and that guy will be administered a physical beating). In the mean-time, the foundation of the team (the O-line keeps getting ignored), the window-of-opportunity is lost and back to mediocrity we go. And, Matt Reese did try, but he got screwed on draft day when we lost Brandon Scherff in 2015 and Jack Conklin in 2016. And now Dave Gettleman is going to be the 2nd coming of Jerry Reese; maybe "it's just in the cards " (fate, some call it)

Nkt drafting an OL at #2 where there is nobody worthy of that pick isn't ignoring the position. There are other rounds, other dract strategies, and FA. I'm very willing to see this regime in section before judging them.

I think you absolutely need to go all in on Solder, but there likely will be an a wuality lineman there at 34, for example I think Will Hernandez will be an immediate plug and play guy.

In comment 13825981 Manny in CA said:

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we have a Super Bowl QB veteran and an excellent prospect on the roster.

Not to be argumentative, but the only people who've said that are the ones who got fired for drafting badly.

as long as the return on investment equals production and most importantly, WINS.

People will over-analyze everything but at the end of the season, if you're over .500 and in the playoffs no one will care how much money you spent on anyone.

I remember when the Eagles traded their 1st, 4th, and 6th round picks for Jason Peters, and then signed him to that huge deal (at the time) and most of BBI scoffed. Doesn't seem like such a bad deal now does it.

Do what you have to do, Gettleman.

In comment 13825902 jtgiants said:

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First. I believe eli has plenty of good football in him and think he can still win big in this league. Grateful head. You say he slipped that's your opinion. Nothing more.

That is your opinion and nothing either right? There are plenty of efficiency stats that would back me up, QBR and DVOA. You would point to subjective evidence like OL and running game. I also think Eli could still win in the correct situation. Good OL and running game. I think someone like Rosen would do very well with that too, cheaper and younger. Insert your favorite QB in the draft, I just used Rosen for kicks.

In comment 13826189 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 13825902 jtgiants said: Quote: First. I believe eli has plenty of good football in him and think he can still win big in this league. Grateful head. You say he slipped that's your opinion. Nothing more. That is your opinion and nothing either right? There are plenty of efficiency stats that would back me up, QBR and DVOA. You would point to subjective evidence like OL and running game. I also think Eli could still win in the correct situation. Good OL and running game. I think someone like Rosen would do very well with that too, cheaper and younger. Insert your favorite QB in the draft, I just used Rosen for kicks.

Eli IS in decline- the numbers over the past 6 seasons bear that out. Too many fixate on total passing yards and TDs, but fail to look at the secondary numbers, which show inefficiency and decline.

Part of that IS the OL play. Part of it IS scheme. Part is just that Eli IS in his late 30's and in physical decline (not from a whole life perspective, but from a pro athlete peak period view).

I do believe that the Giants finally settling on a real offensive scheme by an experienced coach and staff will improve the offensive game planning and output. A real scheme will also help the OL, which seemed not to have a set plan.

However, better players ARE needed on OL- especially in the interior OL. As the season progressed, Flowers actually was good. He might not ever have the consistent footwork to be a LT, but he should be more than adequate at RT.

With that said, the OG and C were a disaster- and the main reason Eli got happy feet. People tend to think it is edge pressure that causes sacks, hurried throws and breakdowns. That is only partially true- when the OT gets beat, it brings pressure. However, the partial solution is to step up in the pocket- which assumes that the interior OL is holding up. Unfortunately, the interior OL were getting pushed right back into Eli's face, which left him nowhere to go.

Replace all 3 interior OL in FA- no interior OL from the Giants 2017 season should even be considered to be brought back. Draft one long term project and sign one almost done vet for depth. You will see a dramatic improvement with just those moves.

The Giants also need a legitimate run game. Unfortunately, they have NO idea whether Webb can be a starter or not because no one put him out there. That means that even though Barkley may be the best RB we have seen in the last decade- and maybe the best we will see for another decade, if there is a QB the Giants are sold on at #2, the Giants MUST pick the QB over Barkley.

However, there is also next to nothing in FA RB. Thus, the Giants MIGHT have to invest in a RB with the second round pick- there are lots of rotational type RB deeper in the draft- but there are only 3 RB who can be 4 down guys in the NFL in this draft- and they might not make it out of round 1. If one does, you probably have to invest in that RB. That is not ideal, especially with the need for multiple LB, maybe a FS, possibly an OL or DE.

In that way, with an improved interior OL and a solid RB- as well as a potential future franchise QB builds for the future- but it may get them to be competitive now. Eli is no longer a franchise QB- but he IS an above-average one still. That combined with a real offensive scheme, a good run game and great WR/TE can make the offense above-average, while helping the defense by simply not requiring them to be on the field 2/3 of the game.

This is going to be a multi-year transition in which the Giants try to maintain playoff contending status for the last year of Eli, while putting together enough building blocks to avoid a drop-off when the #2 pick QB takes over. This might take 3 drafts to get right- but it requires focus on interior OL, picking the right QB at #2 and getting a real 4 down RB, while grabbing legit sideline to sideline LB in the middle of the draft.

In comment 13825650 ryanmkeane said:

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Flowers was a blunder. But I think that pick has made lots of people gunshy on OL.

I agree, Flowers is an embarrassment to this team and yet people keep penciling him in as a starter somewhere on the O line, why?

I don't think he's unplayable. He simply isn't a good LT and if he's one of your best linemen, you have a terrible line. If he had better players around him, he's probably salvageable.