If NYG is looking to compete in 2018, and with Manning still in the picture that appears to be the approach, their OL-fixing is going to need to come via FA.
We can talk about drafting OL all day and yes, if the value is there you do it, but there is a problem. There is no OL worth taking at #2 and I am going to project 6-7 OL taken in round 1 as of right now. With the OL class being average at best (I am thinking slightly below average)....the ones that can make a difference early will likely be gone when NYG comes around on the clock again in round 2.
So assuming no trades, I just don't see the proper value in round 1 or 2 for OL, and now we are taking about a FA-only approach to fix the starting group. I'm not a huge FA guy in general, but in certain situations it is a must. I am forecasting this to be one of those situations. This means you get the top available OT AND top available OG/OC. The ideal situation would be to do both of them while bringing back Pugh on a team-freindly (maybe even short term) deal considering his injury issues and lack of ground to stand on.
Knocking on the doors of Andrew Norwell and Nate Solder, hard.
Doing this really enforced the BPA approach in the draft days 1 and 2 with the amount of holes they have elsewhere. Financially this can work, as Eli and his 20+ million will be off the books in a year or 2.
I know the chance he might not leave is a concern but if he hits the FA market, which he should if he wants more money then we should hit it hard
Norwell and Soldier would turn this oline into a legit unit.
Then we add either Price (OSU) in Rd 2 or Cole (UM ) in rd 3 for center or at least RT Guard and back up center.
Oline becomes
Solder-Norwell-Jones(at lease at first)-Price/Cole-Wheeler/Flowers
or
Solder -Norwell-Price/Jones-Flowers-Wheeler
or
Solder-Norwell-Jones-Cole-FLowers
If we don't get Solder then resign Fluker
Wheeler-Norwell-Price/Jones-Fluker-Flowers
I don't see a place for Flowers on this team, he's a minor-league talent.
If the Giants somehow re-sign Pugh, let him and Wheeler battle it out for LT for 2018. Then put Flowers at RG or RT, whatever works better.
If Wheeler has gotten stronger this off season, it will be a HUGE benefit to the team. He played well (with some help) last year. Bisnowaty was put at RT with no help at all.
There's 3 avenues we'll have to take to fix this OL. ALL three avenues will need to be explored.
-Free Agency
-Trade
-Draft
NO ONE can really predict the draft. We'll have our shot at good players its just up to DG and company to find them. There's veterans potentially available for trade and there's veterans outside of the top guys like Solder and Norwell that could help us. Again, its up to DG and his cronies to find them.
There's 3 avenues we'll have to take to fix this OL. ALL three avenues will need to be explored.
-Free Agency
-Trade
-Draft
We have no signed tradeable players.
However I have a slightly different take on the OL and FA. The fact is you don't need a great OL to be effective in the NFL. What you need is a good competent group and then your skill players take over. Stated another way, there is really only a marginal difference in winnability in the NFL when you go from a good to a very good to an elite offense line. Compare that with QB where a good QB gets you to .500, a very good one gets you to the playoffs and an elite one gets you to the Super Bowl on multiple occasions. same with DEs where a good DE doesn't really help all that much.
Bottom line is that you really don't need to invest $10-12M in one pro bowl OG; you need 5-6 guys that simply know how to play the game. In that sense, it is very possible that the Giants can do what Minnesota did last year and that is rebuild a competitive line by signing a number of mid-priced OL.
Speaking of the draft, though, as several people have mentioned there is a good chance that a G/C type like Hernandez, Price or Wynn is available at #34 and that would certainly help. The problem going forward for the Giants though is assuming they take a QB at #2 this year (and for the record that's what they are going to do) they are likely going to need both a new LT (those guys just don't come free in FA) and at least one and maybe two DEs in 2019. Those are both first round positions so when I do mocks I am always looking at one of those two to get a head start on next year; i.e., I think the Giants look at those G/Cs if like a Chris Snee they are imply too talented to pass on but don't take an interior OL just for need. Should be a really interesting off-season.
The Eagles just won the Super Bowl with a backup QB and one of the best OL’s in football.
Getting “5-6 guys who simply know how to play the game,” whatever that means, is easier said than done.
The good OL’s around the league typically have a combination of FAs, an early pick or two, and some mid to late rounders that pan out. So the answer for the Giants isn’t going to be load up on FAs or draft all OL.
I guess this raises the larger question of whether we want to pay Solder $10-12 million dollars for each of the next four years.
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Does not only hinge on Free Agency. That's nonsense.
There's 3 avenues we'll have to take to fix this OL. ALL three avenues will need to be explored.
-Free Agency
-Trade
-Draft
We have no signed tradeable players.
We have assets (players or picks).. The notion this roster is so depleted in talent has no base.
Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth.
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In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:
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but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?
They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years.
The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though.
I think you are going to have to choose 1 of those guys.
Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth.
He’s also saying just do what Minny did like it’s some easy boilerplate formula to replicate.
Besides, that OL got their asses kicked by Philly so I’m not so sure that’s the model we want to go with playing them twice a year.
I guess this raises the larger question of whether we want to pay Solder $10-12 million dollars for each of the next four years.
Last year is actually a great example. Robinson and Ramzcyk played very well. No way did you want to take them at #2, and I don't think they would be available when NYG is on the clock in the 2nd round. So that is the issue here...those caliber guys are not likely to be there in the 2nd Round, so you are talking round 3 for a rookie fix on this OL. And in addition to that you don't want to spend money on veterans that are proven?
Plenty were saying Andrew Whitworth was too old and expensive last year. Rams were very fortunate to have him.
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not every NFL player knows how to play the game in the sense they're at their best, and contributing to a cohesive, high output unit. Some are just big guys who can move ok, some get by on their physical talents, but put no extra work into their craft. It's just a job to them. Lots of variables just like in every day life where you work with people who don't necessarily know how to do their job.
Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth.
He’s also saying just do what Minny did like it’s some easy boilerplate formula to replicate.
Besides, that OL got their asses kicked by Philly so I’m not so sure that’s the model we want to go with playing them twice a year.
They're not great or poor examples, perhaps you're being a bit too literal.
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In comment 13824747 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:
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but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?
They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years.
The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though.
I think you are going to have to choose 1 of those guys.
Then it would be a bad decision to overpay for FA OL.
Beckham and Collins are elite players. Solder isn’t.
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In comment 13824910 Andy in Boston said:
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In comment 13824747 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:
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but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?
They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years.
The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though.
I think you are going to have to choose 1 of those guys.
Then it would be a bad decision to overpay for FA OL.
Beckham and Collins are elite players. Solder isn’t.
That's the precise point I've tried to make, can't pay elite dollars to non-elite talent, especially out of desperation.
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In comment 13825252 JonC said:
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not every NFL player knows how to play the game in the sense they're at their best, and contributing to a cohesive, high output unit. Some are just big guys who can move ok, some get by on their physical talents, but put no extra work into their craft. It's just a job to them. Lots of variables just like in every day life where you work with people who don't necessarily know how to do their job.
Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth.
He’s also saying just do what Minny did like it’s some easy boilerplate formula to replicate.
Besides, that OL got their asses kicked by Philly so I’m not so sure that’s the model we want to go with playing them twice a year.
They're not great or poor examples, perhaps you're being a bit too literal.
Colin’s opening point in paragraph 2 is that you don’t need a great OL. I vehemently disagree with this premise and the results bear my position out.
How you get there is open for debate.
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In comment 13825270 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13825252 JonC said:
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not every NFL player knows how to play the game in the sense they're at their best, and contributing to a cohesive, high output unit. Some are just big guys who can move ok, some get by on their physical talents, but put no extra work into their craft. It's just a job to them. Lots of variables just like in every day life where you work with people who don't necessarily know how to do their job.
Colin is suggesting it will be a blend of resources, that it doesn't have to be spending like a drunken sailor on players who are capitalizing on a scarcity of talent, rather than being paid their actual true worth.
He’s also saying just do what Minny did like it’s some easy boilerplate formula to replicate.
Besides, that OL got their asses kicked by Philly so I’m not so sure that’s the model we want to go with playing them twice a year.
They're not great or poor examples, perhaps you're being a bit too literal.
Colin’s opening point in paragraph 2 is that you don’t need a great OL. I vehemently disagree with this premise and the results bear my position out.
How you get there is open for debate.
2011 Giants OL says hello ... Colin's not really wrong.
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In comment 13824910 Andy in Boston said:
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In comment 13824747 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 13824737 ryanmkeane said:
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but can we afford to pay most likely the top 2 most expensive FA OL on the market?
They will have to backload the contracts a little. But they potentially have a serious amount of cash coming off the books in the next 2 years.
The cash coming off the books will be back with Collins and Beckham contracts though.
I think you are going to have to choose 1 of those guys.
Then it would be a bad decision to overpay for FA OL.
Beckham and Collins are elite players. Solder isn’t.
I don't think Collins is in the elite tier....
Colin’s opening point in paragraph 2 is that you don’t need a great OL. I vehemently disagree with this premise and the results bear my position out.
How you get there is open for debate.
I don't know how you can say that when the Giants won the SB in 2011 with a very bad offensive line. They finished dead last in rushing that year mainly because of the play of the offensive line. Diehl, Snee, and McKenzie had forks sticking out of their back and Diehl was forced to start at LT with two broken hands IIRC because of the injury to Beatty. Baas and Boothe were both below average starters as well. Eli does not get the respect he deserves for winning with that offensive line.
You said it yourself, countless examples in both directions. It really isn't a good argument for/against any case.
I don't think NYG needs every top tier guy, but they should attempt to get at least 1 or 2. They literally have nothing here if Pugh leaves, and this regime can't make the same mistake the last one did. The OL needs to be a strength if you are relying on an old QB with declining skill sets and no RB.
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and the better OL is the preferred destination, but teams win the NFL without an elite OL in terms of talent.
You said it yourself, countless examples in both directions. It really isn't a good argument for/against any case.
I don't think NYG needs every top tier guy, but they should attempt to get at least 1 or 2. They literally have nothing here if Pugh leaves, and this regime can't make the same mistake the last one did. The OL needs to be a strength if you are relying on an old QB with declining skill sets and no RB.
No argument from me on the concept. The problem is the top tier guys available aren't worth the open market dollars, imv. Perhaps it's the optimizer in my personality, but paying Norwell $10M+ per makes me nuts.
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Colin’s opening point in paragraph 2 is that you don’t need a great OL. I vehemently disagree with this premise and the results bear my position out.
How you get there is open for debate.
I don't know how you can say that when the Giants won the SB in 2011 with a very bad offensive line. They finished dead last in rushing that year mainly because of the play of the offensive line. Diehl, Snee, and McKenzie had forks sticking out of their back and Diehl was forced to start at LT with two broken hands IIRC because of the injury to Beatty. Baas and Boothe were both below average starters as well. Eli does not get the respect he deserves for winning with that offensive line.
‘11 was an anomaly. The fact that Reese tried to duplicate that model until he was fired with zero success supports this.
Look at the teams in the playoffs this year. They all had very good OL play in ‘17.
Trying to skate by with bargain FAs and late round projects doesn’t work.
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In comment 13825327 JonC said:
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and the better OL is the preferred destination, but teams win the NFL without an elite OL in terms of talent.
You said it yourself, countless examples in both directions. It really isn't a good argument for/against any case.
I don't think NYG needs every top tier guy, but they should attempt to get at least 1 or 2. They literally have nothing here if Pugh leaves, and this regime can't make the same mistake the last one did. The OL needs to be a strength if you are relying on an old QB with declining skill sets and no RB.
No argument from me on the concept. The problem is the top tier guys available aren't worth the open market dollars, imv. Perhaps it's the optimizer in my personality, but paying Norwell $10M+ per makes me nuts.
Andrew Whitworth....
The ironic point is that our best OL years were probably the years which we didn't make any noise in the playoffs, or even make the playoffs.
I agree with Colin in that a cohesive, OK to solid OL and a great QB is a much better solution.
I don't see his clone among this crop though, and that's the rub. Giants were ready to draft Solder ahead of Prince and now he might be available, but what's his price tag going to be?
I'd be onboard with that, provided his medicals are solid.
Vikings added Reiff and Remmers in FA, and drafted Elflien. 3/r of their line was new
DG signed guard Trai Turner to a $11+ million deal. I think he wouldn't hesitate to sign Norwell to that or higher.
My point is we can't put all our resources only into the O line. in truth we will not be SB competitive for 3-5 years at best
Make a run at Norwell if we cant get him bring fluker and jones back.
I dont think we will find a LT in the 2nd but could find a guard or RT. Solder-Norwell-Jones with Flowers and a rookie on the right side
Why so? Nothing to indicate that he's against spending money. Gave Matt Kalil $55 million over 5 years just this year.
Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.
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Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.
LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.
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In comment 13825593 JonC said:
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Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.
LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.
Which circles us back to the main point, don't overpay elite dollars to non-elite players.
Bolles had one of the best seasons of all the rookie linemen last year, but you're not going to find many people who were convinced at this time last year that Bolles was going to be someone you could bet on. Linemen are hard to find and harder to scout these days due to the nature of college offense.
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In comment 13825593 JonC said:
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Nothing to indicate that he would only pay tackles. He made it pretty clear that the emphasis was on fixing the offensive line. It's a five-man unit.
LTs are a premium, they're worth more than the other four positions when your QB is right-handed, that hasn't changed. A team paying similar for an OG had better be getting elite talent.
Look at the contracts guards are getting. 5/60 for Zeitler this year. 5/60 for Osemele the year before.
All those positions get paid. I would argue that something has changed. Guards do get paid now.
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respect your opinions a ton...but it seems year over year there's this "not a great OL class" thing with the draft. And yet every year, very good OL are taken.
Bolles had one of the best seasons of all the rookie linemen last year, but you're not going to find many people who were convinced at this time last year that Bolles was going to be someone you could bet on. Linemen are hard to find and harder to scout these days due to the nature of college offense.
OK, but my point is that every draft has good OL. It seems on this board, every year, the "OL just isn't good" line comes out during draft time.