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Pat Shurmur and the Cleveland Browns...

M.S. : 2/7/2018 9:46 am
...a few top line stats two years before Head Coaching tenure; two years as Head Coach; and two years after Head Coaching tenure:

Two Seasons Before Pat Shurmur (2009 & 2010)
Wins: 10
Losses: 22
Points For: 516
Points Against: 707
Differential: -191
Avg. offensive YPG: 275
Avg. defensive YPG: 370
Net Differential YPG: -95

Pat Shurmur as Head Coach (2011 & 2012)
Wins: 9
Losses: 23 Losses
Points For: 520
Points Against: 675
Differential: -155
Avg. offensive YPG: 302
Avg. defensive YPG: 348
Net Differential YPG: -46

Two Seasons After Pat Shurmur (2013 & 2014)
Wins: 11
Losses: 21
Points For 607
Points Against 743
Differential -136
Avg. offensive YPG: 332
Avg. defensive YPG: 349
Net Differential YPG: -17




Shurmur and Mike Pettine  
Mike in NY : 2/7/2018 9:50 am : link
Both did more in Cleveland than their records would indicate. The fact that they did not finish 0-16 each year says a lot. Mike Holmgren had completely decimated the franchise from a personnel standpoint.
You should just your handle to  
GiantGolfer : 2/7/2018 9:54 am : link
Negative Nancy.
RE: You should just your handle to  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 10:01 am : link
In comment 13824875 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
Negative Nancy.

Why... what's negative about the comparison I made?
RE: Shurmur and Mike Pettine  
Jay on the Island : 2/7/2018 10:16 am : link
In comment 13824866 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
Both did more in Cleveland than their records would indicate. The fact that they did not finish 0-16 each year says a lot. Mike Holmgren had completely decimated the franchise from a personnel standpoint.

Shurmur's 5-11 team had significantly less talent than the Browns team that just went 0-16. It is amazing that Shurmur won 5 games that season especially with Seneca Wallace, Colt McCoy, and Thad Lewis at QB.
RE: RE: You should just your handle to  
superspynyg : 2/7/2018 10:17 am : link
In comment 13824896 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 13824875 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


Negative Nancy.


Why... what's negative about the comparison I made?


Your point that your numbers indicate is that the Browns did worse the years Shurmur was HC. I hated the McAdoo higher but once he was official I got behind him. Shurmur has not even had his first practice...give the man some time.
I see Shurmur receiving criticism  
Jay on the Island : 2/7/2018 10:18 am : link
for his performance in Cleveland but after further review I am more excited about the hire from his stint in Cleveland. He was in a no-win situation there and yet he did an admirable job.
I think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/7/2018 10:19 am : link
gidie's line the other day is quite appropriate for M.S. threads.
RE: I think..  
superspynyg : 2/7/2018 10:29 am : link
In comment 13824940 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
gidie's line the other day is quite appropriate for M.S. threads.


Care to repeat it since some of us missed for forget it?
RE: RE: Shurmur and Mike Pettine  
Canton : 2/7/2018 10:30 am : link
In comment 13824932 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 13824866 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


Both did more in Cleveland than their records would indicate. The fact that they did not finish 0-16 each year says a lot. Mike Holmgren had completely decimated the franchise from a personnel standpoint.


Shurmur's 5-11 team had significantly less talent than the Browns team that just went 0-16. It is amazing that Shurmur won 5 games that season especially with Seneca Wallace, Colt McCoy, and Thad Lewis at QB.


Exactly +1

He said...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/7/2018 10:32 am : link
M.S. next solid post about football will be his first.

Even this post, he lists three sets of data without commentary or context.

Basically he spent time to do a meaningless data dump.

Emphasis on dump....
Hard to glean too much information  
PaulBlakeTSU : 2/7/2018 10:38 am : link
about Shurmur's efficacy in Cleveland.

The team's SRS rankings over the 6 years were: 27th, 20th, 26th, 25th, 29th, 25th

But I'm not sure what people are expecting. Obviously the team had Joe Thomas, though I'm unable to evaluate the rest of the talent on the offensive line. But at skill positions:

In 2011, Shurmur's QB was Colt McCoy, his RB was Peyton Hillis, and his top WRs were Greg Little and Mohammad Massequoi.

In 2012, the QB was Brandon Weeden, the RB was Trent Richardson, and the top WRs were rookie Josh Gordon and Greg Little.

If history has show us anything  
Peppers : 2/7/2018 10:43 am : link
its shown us you can't judge a coach from his stint in Cleveland.
RE: Hard to glean too much information  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 13824971 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
about Shurmur's efficacy in Cleveland.

The team's SRS rankings over the 6 years were: 27th, 20th, 26th, 25th, 29th, 25th

But I'm not sure what people are expecting. Obviously the team had Joe Thomas, though I'm unable to evaluate the rest of the talent on the offensive line. But at skill positions:

In 2011, Shurmur's QB was Colt McCoy, his RB was Peyton Hillis, and his top WRs were Greg Little and Mohammad Massequoi.

In 2012, the QB was Brandon Weeden, the RB was Trent Richardson, and the top WRs were rookie Josh Gordon and Greg Little.

Your point is well taken... the top line stats for the different 2-year intervals indicate that not a whole lot can be gleaned about Pat Shurmur's cup of coffee in Cleveland.
RE: If history has show us anything  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 13824979 Peppers said:
Quote:
its shown us you can't judge a coach from his stint in Cleveland.

Amen to that!
What's you point?  
jeff57 : 2/7/2018 10:49 am : link
He's been hired. What matters is what he does here.
Belichick  
Pepe LePugh : 2/7/2018 10:50 am : link
6-10 his first yr in Cleveland, w/ Bernie Kosar in his prime.
RE: RE: You should just your handle to  
GiantGolfer : 2/7/2018 11:01 am : link
In comment 13824896 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 13824875 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


Negative Nancy.


Why... what's negative about the comparison I made?


Pretty much all of it.
If Shurmur can bring back  
mikeygiants : 2/7/2018 11:16 am : link
Peyton Hillis then we're all set. End of conversation.
RE: What's you point?  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 11:21 am : link
In comment 13824990 jeff57 said:
Quote:
He's been hired. What matters is what he does here.

For sure, what Shurmur does here is all that counts.

I posted these stats because, when Shurmur was first hired I noted that several posts mentioned he did a pretty good job in Cleveland with what he had, and that he was definitely better than the shit-show that's in Cleveland today.

So, I thought I would take a fast look-see at Shurmur's Cleveland tenure in the context of his immediate predecessor and successor. And in that context I couldn't really see anything obvious that stuck out one way or another.
RE: RE: Hard to glean too much information  
Rocky369 : 2/7/2018 11:22 am : link
In comment 13824983 M.S. said:
Quote:
Your point is well taken... the top line stats for the different 2-year intervals indicate that not a whole lot can be gleaned about Pat Shurmur's cup of coffee in Cleveland.
so what's the point of the thread?
Wins vs losses  
Canton : 2/7/2018 11:24 am : link
Any win in Cleveland is act of God.

Nor in this case, Shurmur.
Cleveland talent  
Mike in NY : 2/7/2018 11:29 am : link
If you look at who each coach had, Shurmur had by far the worst starting QB's and had a rookie Josh Gordon versus Mike Pettine who had a more experienced Josh Gordon.

Thanks to Wikipedia I can get the starting QB's for that 6 year period:

2014 Brian Hoyer (13) / Johnny Manziel (2) / Connor Shaw (1)
2013 Jason Campbell (8) / Brandon Weeden (5) / Brian Hoyer (3)
2012 Brandon Weeden (15) / Thad Lewis (1)
2011 Colt McCoy (13) / Seneca Wallace (3)
2010 Colt McCoy (8) / Jake Delhomme (4) / Seneca Wallace (4)
2009 Brady Quinn (9) / Derek Anderson (7)
RE: RE: RE: Hard to glean too much information  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 11:40 am : link
In comment 13825042 Rocky369 said:
Quote:
In comment 13824983 M.S. said:


Quote:


Your point is well taken... the top line stats for the different 2-year intervals indicate that not a whole lot can be gleaned about Pat Shurmur's cup of coffee in Cleveland.

so what's the point of the thread?

See 11:21 post.
So you posted..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/7/2018 11:43 am : link
stats that you couldn't figure out what conclusions to draw for what reason exactly?

There's a point to the thread?

You posted stats without context from Shurmur's tenure and the one's he was sandwiched in, couldn't draw a conclusion, but found them threadworthy anyway?

Awesome....
M.S. is just bored like the rest of us  
Brown Recluse : 2/7/2018 11:45 am : link
.
RE: M.S. is just bored like the rest of us  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 11:49 am : link
In comment 13825143 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
.

(:-)
M.S. made a fair point. No reason to beat on him again today.  
Ivan15 : 2/7/2018 1:20 pm : link
Give him a break.

You can interpret the info any way you choose. Donít blame the messenger this time.
I don't think these comparisons mean much in the modern NFL  
moespree : 2/7/2018 1:23 pm : link
Way too much roster turnover on every team. How much of the roster was the same in these three comparisons? And how much of the roster was the same for the opponents they played in these three comparisons? I would guess a large amount of roster turnover which ultimately makes comparisons like this interesting to look at, but not overly impactful.
But..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/7/2018 1:56 pm : link
what was the point?

Quote:
M.S. made a fair point. No reason to beat on him again today.
Ivan15 : 1:20 pm : link : reply
Give him a break.


He posted three sets of data with no context or commentary.

Later, he said he didn't know what to make of the data.

So what was the point?
RE: RE: What's you point?  
GiantTuff1 : 2/7/2018 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13825038 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 13824990 jeff57 said:


Quote:


He's been hired. What matters is what he does here.


For sure, what Shurmur does here is all that counts.

I posted these stats because, when Shurmur was first hired I noted that several posts mentioned he did a pretty good job in Cleveland with what he had, and that he was definitely better than the shit-show that's in Cleveland today.

So, I thought I would take a fast look-see at Shurmur's Cleveland tenure in the context of his immediate predecessor and successor. And in that context I couldn't really see anything obvious that stuck out one way or another.


I don't think it's easy to glean something from the numbers, but this fact plays in Shurmur's favor.

The team was worse before Shurmur.
He improved it during his tenure.
The team continued to improve after Shurmur and for Pettine.

It is not out of the realm that the foundation that Shurmur was laying, which showed momentum, was starting to materialize for Pettine and he got the credit (if you can call it that) for the improved statistical output.

As a side note I'm surprised that the Browns dumped Pettine. I remember his run better than Shurmur's and I thought they looked like a team on the rise.
RE: M.S. made a fair point. No reason to beat on him again today.  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 2:07 pm : link
In comment 13825347 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
Give him a break.

You can interpret the info any way you choose. Donít blame the messenger this time.

Thank you!
RE: But..  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13825425 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
what was the point?



Quote:


M.S. made a fair point. No reason to beat on him again today.
Ivan15 : 1:20 pm : link : reply
Give him a break.



He posted three sets of data with no context or commentary.

Later, he said he didn't know what to make of the data.

So what was the point?

Your reading for comprehension is sometimes quite selective. And I never said that I "didn't know what to make of the data."

What I did say is that I posted these stats because, when Shurmur was first hired I noted that several posts mentioned he did a pretty good job in Cleveland with what he had, and that he was definitely better than the shit-show that's in Cleveland today.

But when I took a fast look-see at Shurmur's Cleveland tenure in the context of his immediate predecessor and successor, I didn't see anything obvious that stuck out one way or the other (better or worse).

Now, if you want to say that Shurmur was better than Cleveland's current Head Coach, no argument here. Never was.
RE: RE: But..  
Mike in NY : 2/7/2018 2:43 pm : link
In comment 13825459 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 13825425 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


what was the point?



Quote:


M.S. made a fair point. No reason to beat on him again today.
Ivan15 : 1:20 pm : link : reply
Give him a break.



He posted three sets of data with no context or commentary.

Later, he said he didn't know what to make of the data.

So what was the point?


Your reading for comprehension is sometimes quite selective. And I never said that I "didn't know what to make of the data."

What I did say is that I posted these stats because, when Shurmur was first hired I noted that several posts mentioned he did a pretty good job in Cleveland with what he had, and that he was definitely better than the shit-show that's in Cleveland today.

But when I took a fast look-see at Shurmur's Cleveland tenure in the context of his immediate predecessor and successor, I didn't see anything obvious that stuck out one way or the other (better or worse).

Now, if you want to say that Shurmur was better than Cleveland's current Head Coach, no argument here. Never was.


Except there was more than just the numbers to look at. Shurmur's first year they were clearly rebuilding and somehow managed to finish 4-12 with Colt McCoy and Seneca Wallace at QB, Peyton Hillis as their top RB, rookie Greg Little and Josh Cribbs at WR, rookie Jordan Cameron at TE, a decent OL with Alex Mack and Joe Thomas, and a 2nd year Joe Haden on D. The rest of the roster was crap. Despite that lack of talent, 6 of their losses were by a TD or less. Another 4 were between 1 and 2 TD's. They improved to 5-11 the following year adding rookies Josh Gordon and Travis Benjamin at WR and Trent Richardson at RB. They also added Tashaun Gipson on Defense. After a lost year under Rob Chudzinski, they improved to 7-9 under Mike Pettine largely on the backs of players drafted and/or developed under Pat Shurmur.
So is..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/7/2018 2:45 pm : link
your argument that Shurmur didn't do as well as his predecessor or replacement based on a data dump?

And let's be clear, you posted a data dump of three years without saying one word about what it meant.

Not until you started getting shit
RE: So is..  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 3:25 pm : link
In comment 13825523 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
your argument that Shurmur didn't do as well as his predecessor or replacement based on a data dump?

And let's be clear, you posted a data dump of three years without saying one word about what it meant.

Not until you started getting shit

Now you're just blabbing, and not reading.

This was my last post to you:

"But when I took a fast look-see at Shurmur's Cleveland tenure in the context of his immediate predecessor and successor, I didn't see anything obvious that stuck out one way or the other (better or worse)."

Do you not understand what this means?

It means that there was nothing in the data I posted that indicated that Shurmur was really any better or any worse than the Head Coaches right before him and right after him.
RE: RE: RE: But..  
M.S. : 2/7/2018 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13825520 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 13825459 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 13825425 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


what was the point?



Quote:


M.S. made a fair point. No reason to beat on him again today.
Ivan15 : 1:20 pm : link : reply
Give him a break.



He posted three sets of data with no context or commentary.

Later, he said he didn't know what to make of the data.

So what was the point?


Your reading for comprehension is sometimes quite selective. And I never said that I "didn't know what to make of the data."

What I did say is that I posted these stats because, when Shurmur was first hired I noted that several posts mentioned he did a pretty good job in Cleveland with what he had, and that he was definitely better than the shit-show that's in Cleveland today.

But when I took a fast look-see at Shurmur's Cleveland tenure in the context of his immediate predecessor and successor, I didn't see anything obvious that stuck out one way or the other (better or worse).

Now, if you want to say that Shurmur was better than Cleveland's current Head Coach, no argument here. Never was.



Except there was more than just the numbers to look at. Shurmur's first year they were clearly rebuilding and somehow managed to finish 4-12 with Colt McCoy and Seneca Wallace at QB, Peyton Hillis as their top RB, rookie Greg Little and Josh Cribbs at WR, rookie Jordan Cameron at TE, a decent OL with Alex Mack and Joe Thomas, and a 2nd year Joe Haden on D. The rest of the roster was crap. Despite that lack of talent, 6 of their losses were by a TD or less. Another 4 were between 1 and 2 TD's. They improved to 5-11 the following year adding rookies Josh Gordon and Travis Benjamin at WR and Trent Richardson at RB. They also added Tashaun Gipson on Defense. After a lost year under Rob Chudzinski, they improved to 7-9 under Mike Pettine largely on the backs of players drafted and/or developed under Pat Shurmur.

You make several interesting points regarding personnel, and clearly one needs to do that in order to fully assess the performance of the Head Coach.

That said, I suspect that his immediate predecessor and successor weren't exactly working with a Super Bowl-like talented roster either.
Devils advocate  
5BowlsSoon : 2/7/2018 4:45 pm : link
If it wasnít Shurmur, then who?

Patricia? McDaniels? Schwartz? __________?
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/7/2018 5:05 pm : link
Dude. Your initial post is a data dump without context or comment.

Basically you put it out there for no fucking reason.

Quote:
Now you're just blabbing, and not reading.


that was my point from the beginning. what the fuck was I supposed to read, anyway - it was a bunch of statistics.

Like I said - why the fuck do you think a data dump is threadworthy??
RE: Devils advocate  
Jay on the Island : 2/7/2018 5:29 pm : link
In comment 13825756 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
If it wasnít Shurmur, then who?

Patricia? McDaniels? Schwartz? __________?

Wilks
I wish I could find the article  
BUgiantfan : 2/8/2018 12:29 am : link
but a month or two ago, I came across an article talking about Shurmur's last season in Cleveland. They had mentioned that the team was sold in August prior to the season and the new owners had made it known that they were interested in cleaning house after the season. Despite the chaos that could cause, the article gave Shurmur a ton of credit for keeping the coaching staff and team focused and preventing any distractions in the locker room.

I was impressed.
...  
christian : 2/8/2018 8:52 am : link
There's not much to glean from his time in Cleveland. Two years is not enough to rebuild a very bad team especilly without a young QB.

Anyone who thinks he did a "good" job is kidding themselves.

From his own mouth he learned a lot. That's the most you can ask for in a failed job. He's been around winners and losers, hopefully he's observant and self aware enough to take from each and apply it.
RE: ...  
M.S. : 2/8/2018 10:36 am : link
In comment 13826146 christian said:
Quote:
There's not much to glean from his time in Cleveland. Two years is not enough to rebuild a very bad team especilly without a young QB.

Anyone who thinks he did a "good" job is kidding themselves.

From his own mouth he learned a lot. That's the most you can ask for in a failed job. He's been around winners and losers, hopefully he's observant and self aware enough to take from each and apply it.

Dead on!
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