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NFT: Willy to Charlotte

ajr2456 : 2/7/2018 11:21 am
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RE: RE: Very good deal  
Vanzetti : 2/7/2018 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13825237 Canton said:
Quote:
In comment 13825228 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Willy could not get off the bench on a crap team and had demanded a trade. Two number two picks is a very good return

Some people vastly overrate young players and then get disappointed when the return matches market value rather than their overinflated value




That may be true. But you don't trade him then. Develop him and get Z better return later. He has that potential.


You have to keep discipline on your team. Willy is a whiner and makes no effort on D. You gotta ship guys like that out. Let him hang out with The fat man in Charlotte where they roll up the sidewalks at 9 pm and maybe he’ll realize his gig at MSG wasn’t so bad
FMIC,  
Keith : 2/7/2018 12:24 pm : link
I don't understand it. How anyone can defend this move is mind boggling. It's not something that will ruin the franchise, but that doesn't mean it makes sense. Even if you feel like he's flawed, you are better off giving him minutes and hope he raises his value in the offseason. His value can't get lower than a salary dump!

It's not like we can't find minutes with 2 centers on the roster that have no future in NY and our star big going down for the season. Mind boggling.
RE: RE: Very good deal  
Vanzetti : 2/7/2018 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13825235 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 13825228 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Willy could not get off the bench on a crap team and had demanded a trade. Two number two picks is a very good return

Some people vastly overrate young players and then get disappointed when the return matches market value rather than their overinflated value




lol, i don't even know where to start with this one.


Are you always this much of douche?

And tell us again about KP comng back in November, jackass.
RE: LOL..  
ajr2456 : 2/7/2018 12:31 pm : link
In comment 13825233 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


Except he wasn't developing. He's a slow, plodding 5 who doesn't play any defense and doesn't offer any position versatility.



It is like you are trying to be contrary for the fuck of it.

He's a rare guy in the NBA - a 2nd rounder with potential. For his promise, he was glued to the bench - so any comments on his development isn't based on his play - it is assuming having him on the bench was the right move. Basically, we took a guy who flashed enough to be a first-team Rookie and got a journeyman and two useless picks in return.

even if you don't think he was developing, what he showed last year warranted more in return. Basically, any of us posting here are worth 2 second round picks, That's how useless they tuen out to be. The guy chosen is as likely to go play in Turkey than he is to see the floor as a Knick.


You're being blinded by some double doubles on a lottery team last year. He's not a good basketball player, and hasn't improved on defense to warrant even getting on the court. His ceiling was very low.

The whole approach to Willy was ass backwards, but the return isn't the disaster it's being made out to be.
RE: FMIC,  
ajr2456 : 2/7/2018 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13825249 Keith said:
Quote:
I don't understand it. How anyone can defend this move is mind boggling. It's not something that will ruin the franchise, but that doesn't mean it makes sense. Even if you feel like he's flawed, you are better off giving him minutes and hope he raises his value in the offseason. His value can't get lower than a salary dump!

It's not like we can't find minutes with 2 centers on the roster that have no future in NY and our star big going down for the season. Mind boggling.


His value drops if he doesn't improve, because in the offseason he's one year closer to free agency.
The point..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/7/2018 12:33 pm : link
is that if the return is that low - then you keep him until there is return.

sell high, buy low, not the opposite.
Isola  
ajr2456 : 2/7/2018 12:34 pm : link
says Knicks executives were turned off that him and KP would talk in Spanish...

might be a troll, but you never know with him.
Im usually as positive...  
Italianju : 2/7/2018 12:34 pm : link
as a knick fan can be but this trade is dumb as hell. If this is market value, and it might be, then just keep him for now. Let him play 20 minutes a game and see if he can build on some of what we saw last year. Worst comes to worst he falls flat on his face and sucks it up for 2 months and you cant trade him. Oh well, we dont get future 2nd rounders. But maybe he plays well enough that his value improves. Unless they are using these picks in another deal it makes zero sense. And the problem is if they are using these picks its going to be something dumb like Payton.

Pretty disappointed in Perry. Thought he was going to be a change, but this deal is just not good
Ok...  
Keith : 2/7/2018 12:37 pm : link
assuming KP gets the surgery rather soon, he should be back in Nov/Dec. If you disagree, do a little research champ.
RE: Isola  
TyreeHelmet : 2/7/2018 12:38 pm : link
In comment 13825263 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
says Knicks executives were turned off that him and KP would talk in Spanish...

might be a troll, but you never know with him.


Fire his favorite assistant coach. Dump his best friend for peanuts hours after a devastating injury. Whats next? Make him pay for his surgery? Ban his brothers from MSG?
Something's up we don't know about.  
81_Great_Dane : 2/7/2018 12:39 pm : link
They've been down on Willy all season. Teams get down on guys for reasons we fans have no idea about. Sometimes those reasons are good -- they know a guy is drinking, or doing drugs, or some other thing.

But sometimes the things they "know" are bullshit.
two other aspects?  
ColHowPepper : 2/7/2018 12:42 pm : link
aren't KP and WHG close, as in really close, Euro connection and all? How will this play with his resolve (and it will take that) to stay at MSG?

second, even tho the 2nd rounders are no '18 and thus sure to be at the end of the draft, '20 and '21 are a LOONNGG way off: in finance, time is money, those two picks are devalued by virtue of bing two and three years out
RE: Ok...  
Canton : 2/7/2018 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13825271 Keith said:
Quote:
assuming KP gets the surgery rather soon, he should be back in Nov/Dec. If you disagree, do a little research champ.


I've been reading a year.
I know he didn’t work hard in practice.  
Carl in CT : 2/7/2018 12:44 pm : link
But for the shit they got is pretty bad.
Where is the market for big men  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 2/7/2018 12:44 pm : link
who don’t spread the floor or play defense?

This was the best deal we we’re gonna get for WHG. Face it. Yeah, you could keep him I guess. But he wasn’t playing. And when he did, he didn’t look good.

Landry Fields and Shump were untouchable too after their first year with the Knicks. How did they turn out? We are overrating WHG just a tad. Time will tell.
Let's  
ryanmkeane : 2/7/2018 12:44 pm : link
say for argument purposes that Willy this year is the same player he was last year. That's STILL warrants a good amount of playing time out there...especially now that KP went down.

I'm not arguing against trading the guy. Just don't see the point if you are getting garbage in return.
RE: Let's  
ajr2456 : 2/7/2018 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13825285 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
say for argument purposes that Willy this year is the same player he was last year. That's STILL warrants a good amount of playing time out there...especially now that KP went down.

I'm not arguing against trading the guy. Just don't see the point if you are getting garbage in return.


KP getting hurt doesn't open up playing time for Hernangomez, unless you are playing him at the 4 and further diminishing his value.
But I've also read  
Canton : 2/7/2018 12:50 pm : link
it could be anywhere from 9 to 20 months.





"Given Porzingis’s likely recovery time, next season is probably shot as well, putting Knicks fans in the familiar position of moaning about the present and looking forward to the future. Not that all hope is lost; as they say when a superstar’s injury ruins two separate years, “There’s always the season after next.”"
Carmelo Anthony reacts to Kristaps Porzingis’ ACL injury - ( New Window )
The argument  
Pete44 : 2/7/2018 12:51 pm : link
I think the frustration shared here by Knick fans are the following when it comes to this trade:

1) They got zero value
2) They traded him at the lowest value he has had, basically they devalued him by not playing
3) Once KP gets hurt, let him play and rebuild the value

hate the trade but  
PhilSimms15 : 2/7/2018 12:51 pm : link
It is quite possible Willie wanted out and was not swayed by KP's injury. So to satisfy Willie and his best friend, KP, the Knicks decided to trade him.

AKA, there must be a pony in here somewhere.
RE: two other aspects?  
TyreeHelmet : 2/7/2018 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13825279 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
aren't KP and WHG close, as in really close, Euro connection and all? How will this play with his resolve (and it will take that) to stay at MSG?

second, even tho the 2nd rounders are no '18 and thus sure to be at the end of the draft, '20 and '21 are a LOONNGG way off: in finance, time is money, those two picks are devalued by virtue of bing two and three years out


This^ . They couldn't even get a 2018 2nd or 2019? The Kings got a 2019 2nd for their assistant GM. The Knicks couldn't get the same for an all rookie center locked in for the vet min until 2020?

RE: RE: two other aspects?  
ajr2456 : 2/7/2018 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13825297 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13825279 ColHowPepper said:


Quote:


aren't KP and WHG close, as in really close, Euro connection and all? How will this play with his resolve (and it will take that) to stay at MSG?

second, even tho the 2nd rounders are no '18 and thus sure to be at the end of the draft, '20 and '21 are a LOONNGG way off: in finance, time is money, those two picks are devalued by virtue of bing two and three years out



This^ . They couldn't even get a 2018 2nd or 2019? The Kings got a 2019 2nd for their assistant GM. The Knicks couldn't get the same for an all rookie center locked in for the vet min until 2020?


Charlotte doesn't own their own 2018 and 2019 picks, the 2020 and 2021 ones will turn out to be higher picks.
From Scott Perry in September  
TyreeHelmet : 2/7/2018 1:01 pm : link
"Reshaping the Knicks as a championship contender will be a step-by-step process, and along the way, the plan will demand patience, as our young core of Kristaps Porzingis, Tim Hardaway Jr., Willy Hernangómez, Frank Ntilikina and Ron Baker mature."

So much for that patience....
Scott Perry today...  
Pete44 : 2/7/2018 1:03 pm : link
Porzingis - Torn ACL
Ntlikina - Jury is out
Hardaway Jr - The next untradeable contract
Willy - Traded him for speaking spanish with KP
Baker - Leaving team to become hair model
Ron Baker part of the "young core."  
bceagle05 : 2/7/2018 1:03 pm : link
What a time to be alive.
This is worse than a pathetic move.  
Dave on the UWS : 2/7/2018 1:05 pm : link
Willy asked out this week and this almost smells like a "if you don't want to be here we will dump your ass" move. That would be disgraceful.
again, even if you don't think that much of Willy  
Greg from LI : 2/7/2018 1:11 pm : link
They got two essentially worthless picks and a guy who probably will be playing in China in another year. There's no way to describe that as "a good return".
20 months for an ACL?  
Keith : 2/7/2018 1:12 pm : link
It's not 1994 anymore. Recoveries for ACL's are like 6-9 months now depending on how the person heals. Id guess that they will be careful with KP which would put him around 9 months. KP should be back(assuming no setbacks) at the end of 2018.
RE: again, even if you don't think that much of Willy  
ajr2456 : 2/7/2018 1:13 pm : link
In comment 13825331 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
They got two essentially worthless picks and a guy who probably will be playing in China in another year. There's no way to describe that as "a good return".


It is for a guy who is likely back in Spain in a couple of years.
Willy had to go because he asked for a trade. The problem  
Jim in Hoboken : 2/7/2018 1:14 pm : link
was the return and letting Horna-fucking-cek alienate Willy in the first place. Just watch, Mills and Perry will assemble a veteran-laden team and we will be in 35-win, 8th-seed hell for the next decade.
Not against the trade  
DennyInDenville : 2/7/2018 1:15 pm : link
However it makes no sense.

Assuming more trades follow like Lee and Oquinn I'm okay with this

Willy can average 15/10 and we could have gotten more. But those 2 second round picks might come in handy and in "crunch time" when the Knicks are back to hopefully highly competitive basketball for atleast a 5 year window from 2020-2025
RE: 20 months for an ACL?  
Canton : 2/7/2018 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13825334 Keith said:
Quote:
It's not 1994 anymore. Recoveries for ACL's are like 6-9 months now depending on how the person heals. Id guess that they will be careful with KP which would put him around 9 months. KP should be back(assuming no setbacks) at the end of 2018.


The nine to twenty months recovery time, for an NBA player, is based on statistics over the last 5 years, in the association.
KP will be back  
bceagle05 : 2/7/2018 1:18 pm : link
just in time for next year's playoff push!
I don't know enough to make an honest evaluation, but  
JustaDiscussion : 2/7/2018 1:20 pm : link
this moves fits with what the Knicks have been saying all year. They don't want to tank. They don't want to dump veteran players. I believe the quote from yesterdays game was that Mills said something like: he wants to make moves that makes sense both short term and long term.

Assuming that the above is true, whether you agree with it or not, their logic holds true. They traded a player that they seeming don't value as much as the fan base, for a young player and two picks to try to recoup what they lost.

Short term, they gain a player who can back up Beasley. They did not have anybody else that they seemed to like at that position on the roster.

Long term, they hope that one of the three players they get pans out to be better than WH.

Again, I personally have no idea whether or not this is smart, but to me it seems like if people listened to what the Knicks have been saying, this shouldn't be a surprise.
RE: RE: RE: two other aspects?  
ColHowPepper : 2/7/2018 1:22 pm : link
In comment 13825301 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Charlotte doesn't own their own 2018 and 2019 picks, the 2020 and 2021 ones will turn out to be higher picks.
Higher, yes, but the point that you seem to be ignoring is that NYK don't realize the "benefit" of this windfall until 2.5 years and 3.5 years out, an eternity while you're waiting for some sliver of hope from this godforsaken organization.

Red, where are you?
Ow,  
chopperhatch : 2/7/2018 1:24 pm : link
my balls!
if KP tearing his ACL  
PaulBlakeTSU : 2/7/2018 1:24 pm : link
doesn't change the front office's plans for the team in the short and long-term, then they are even more hopeless than I anticipated.
Canton,  
Keith : 2/7/2018 1:27 pm : link
you need to understand the wording that he used. He's not saying that the average return is 9-20 months. Hypotheticall, if there were 2 guys that tore their ACL and 1 came back in 9 months and 1 in 20 months, the returns were between 9-20 months. I've torn both my ACL's. I'm not comparing my injuries to a pro athlete, but I know ACL tears and I know recoveries. For him to come back in 20 months, there would have to be significant setbacks and I'd bet that he will never be the same. Assuming no setbacks, it's not gonna be longer than 9 months'ish.
I think it's probably a bad idea  
Phil in LA : 2/7/2018 1:29 pm : link
to trade young players when a coaching change is so necessary.
Assuming no meniscus damage....  
Keith : 2/7/2018 1:31 pm : link
there won't be long term effects either. Maybe they are ultra conservative with his return and hold him out 12 months because we are tanking next year too, but he will make a 100% recovery. ACL's aren't devastating anymore. Meniscus injuries are worse.
I don't remember seeing O'Bryant when we played Charlotte.  
Ira : 2/7/2018 1:45 pm : link
How do Willy and Johnny compare athletically?
RE: I don't remember seeing O'Bryant when we played Charlotte.  
ajr2456 : 2/7/2018 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13825401 Ira said:
Quote:
How do Willy and Johnny compare athletically?


Both aren't that good athletically and have poor lateral movement.
RE: RE: I don't remember seeing O'Bryant when we played Charlotte.  
Earl the goat : 2/7/2018 1:52 pm : link
In comment 13825411 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13825401 Ira said:


Quote:


How do Willy and Johnny compare athletically?



Both aren't that good athletically and have poor lateral movement.


Obryant has very good athleticism
Yeah, O'Bryant isn't very athletic, but he is rugged.  
Heisenberg : 2/7/2018 1:52 pm : link
He's like a lesser O'Quinn? Not quite as tall?
JOB game highlights from a month ago  
Canton : 2/7/2018 1:58 pm : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
According to begely  
nygiants16 : 2/7/2018 2:08 pm : link
With injury to kp Knicks will focus on their youth getting more playing time and are aggressively looking at trades to get youth and draft picks..

Lee and oquinn look to be the 2 main guys about to be traded
RE: According to begely  
TheMick7 : 2/7/2018 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13825445 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
With injury to kp Knicks will focus on their youth getting more playing time and are aggressively looking at trades to get youth and draft picks..

Lee and oquinn look to be the 2 main guys about to be traded


Saw that post. Willy at 23 would have been a young guy to play.O'Bryant is now on his 5th(4 including NYK that he played with) team. I just keep shaking my head. Hornacek is behind this in some way & he should have been the one to go!
RE: According to begely  
Keith : 2/7/2018 2:18 pm : link
In comment 13825445 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
With injury to kp Knicks will focus on their youth getting more playing time and are aggressively looking at trades to get youth and draft picks..

Lee and oquinn look to be the 2 main guys about to be traded


Theres a good young center in Charlotte. Should be able to get him for a 2nd, maybe 2 seconds. Willy Hernangomez.
No point in firing Horny at this point,  
Keith : 2/7/2018 2:19 pm : link
he's actually the perfect man for the job......when the job is to tank.
RE: I think I'm about done  
Matt M. : 2/7/2018 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13825155 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In the long history of Knicks ineptitude, this is merely a drop in the bucket, but I think this is a straw breaking the camel's back moment. The team is terrible. The one bright spot just tore his knee up. The new GM has just proven to be every bit as incompetent as the clowns who preceded him. I derive nothing but misery from following the Knicks. Why bother? For the foreseeable future, I'm just watching college ball.
I feel the same way. This season, which was already spiraling down the drain, was finished with KP's knee. But, that also killed next season too. As soon as KP went down, I thought at least now Willy gets some play. Instead, we trade him for nothing, when he costs us nothing.

The Knicks of this century make the lack of a championship in the 90s that much more painful. The last time they won I was a baby, so I effectively have never seen a Knicks championship. Moves like this make me wonder if I ever will.
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