Proof OL do not need to come from the 1st round (long-ish)

Holes on a team should be replaced by adaquate FA.. and not be forced to draft a particular position in the Draft.. It should always be BPA in the draft...

It comes down to your scouting. There have been some great ol in round 1 and in rounds 2-5

Those OLs are dominated by picks in the first 3 rounds and FA signings. My guess is that some of those FAs were picked in the first 3 rounds.

So, if you have the cap room you can build with FA's, but it can be expensive and had gotten more so in recent years. But you also can not ignore OL at the top of the draft.

It's not that the OL wasn't addressed, it was just that the picks used were misses:

Flowers is a miss
Pugh seems to be as he's always hurt
Richburg regressed

There's 2 #1 and a #2 pick that can be characterized as misses. If they all were successful, we'd only have lower round picks and/or FA to fill in 2 spots, not the possibility of 4 or 5 new starters this season

How bout someone who played or coached chip in with 'zone vs power vs etc and types of linesmen for those respectively'

In comment 13827462 njm said:

Quote:

Those OLs are dominated by picks in the first 3 rounds and FA signings. My guess is that some of those FAs were picked in the first 3 rounds. So, if you have the cap room you can build with FA's, but it can be expensive and had gotten more so in recent years. But you also can not ignore OL at the top of the draft.

first three rounds is a big range. Huge difference in investment from a 3rd round pick and a 1st.

Takeaway is like another poster said, OL help can come from a variety of sources and the 1st round investment does not necessarily correlate to a successful player or a successful team.

If a team has the space I think FA's are a safer bet. If they stay healthy you know what you get, otherwise a lot of unknown and reliance on scouting and development.

of every single position on the field.

are former 1st rounders though.

When the Giants built solid lines with the following:
2002 LT Petitgout LG Seubert C Bober RG Whittle RT Rosenthal
2005-2011 LT Diehl LG Seubert C O'Hara RG Snee RT McKenzie

The 2002 offensive line was supposed to be among the league's worst but Jim McNally did a fantastic job putting together a solid all round line with three former UDFA's on the interior and a 5th round pick at RT.

looking up everyone.


It appear that 22 out of 32 starting LT's are former 1st round picks.

In comment 13827484 Rocky369 said:

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of every single position on the field.

Of course, some people however see a need the knee jerk reaction is "we should be drafting OL in the 1st and 2nd round" because they think it's the only way to fill the need.

just thought seeing visually (or in word form) that most successful teams do not invest large amounts of 1st round picks in their OL's would help.

I looked at the playoff teams and broke down each offensive line based on whether the player was on their rookie deal and a draft pick or on a free agent deal, by position. Of course, there's a bunch of linemen who were draft picks for a team and then re-signed as free agents.

Left Tackle

Round 1 Draft Pick - 2
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 3
Round 4+ Draft pick - 0
High priced FA - 6
Mid priced FA - 1
Low priced FA - 0

Thoughts Left tackle is an expensive spot. It's either going to cost a high draft pick (2 of the 3 Day 2 picks were at the top of Round 2) or it's going to be a high priced FA.

Left guard

Round 1 Draft Pick - 0
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 2
Round 4+ Draft pick - 1
High priced FA - 1
Mid priced FA - 3
Low priced FA - 5

Thoughts This one was surprising. Very few high picks playing left guard and very few high priced free agents. Left guard seems to be a bargain position for a lot of playoff teams. Quenton Nelson and Andrew Norwell are being brought up a lot in discussion, this gives me pause.

Center

Round 1 Draft Pick - 0
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 2
Round 4+ Draft pick - 2
High priced FA - 6
Mid priced FA - 1
Low priced FA - 1

Thoughts - This was surprising to me too. Center is becoming a more valued position. Some teams are still getting value guys in the draft, but the ones who are working out are getting big contracts. We should certainly look for a C in the draft.

Right Guard

Round 1 Draft Pick - 0
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 3
Round 4+ Draft pick - 3
High priced FA - 2
Mid priced FA - 1
Low priced FA - 3

Thoughts - No real consensus here.

Right Tackle

Round 1 Draft Pick - 4
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 3
Round 4+ Draft pick - 1
High priced FA - 1
Mid priced FA - 4
Low priced FA - 0

Thoughts - No surprise, right tackle is a valued position too. A lot of draft picks playing right tackle (maybe Flowers?) and then some midpriced free agents.

In comment 13827442 chuckydee9 said:

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Holes on a team should be replaced by adaquate FA.. and not be forced to draft a particular position in the Draft.. It should always be BPA in the draft...

I agree to a certain point. I think on day 3, it's OK to fill holes that you couldn't in FA. Basically BPA at a position of need.

then most teams would have to be drafting linemen half of the time or more. That's five positions to fill. Even if you got ten years out of each guy, you'd have to draft an O-lineman every other year. So I don't think anyone believes that the first round is the only place to find good linemen.

Ernie Accorsi said in interviews that he didn't believe in taking O-linemen in the first except for a "stud tackle." It does seem that left tackles come with a pedigree -- it's rare for a guy like Chad Wheeler to work his way up to starting LT in the pros. Even what David Diehl did was rare.

I think if you take a guard, center or right tackle in the first he'd better be a Pro Bowl-caliber player. On the other hand, you had better not count on getting a left tackle late--it's a bad gamble.

The stats above are very interesting and informative. Good reference for discussion on here.

Great OP and great follow up post by AdamBrag. Very interesting to see the data and then lay that over what's available in the draft and through FA.

It sounds simple, but its true, the NFL comes down to coaching and talent. I think we had the worst coaching staff in the NFL last season and the misses by our personnel department are well known around these parts. Glad we have new FO and new coaching staff.

that the op should note if these lists are from the start of the season, or week 17.

Injuries can often lead to a lot of those undratfed and late round players in the game. There are many teams that invest high picks in the OL

In comment 13827484 Rocky369 said:

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of every single position on the field.

This is true and that is EXACTLY pjcas point. The OL at all costs crowd always throws this around when discussing drafting any position on the field other than OL. They point to recent Super Bowl champions and say that it proves that you don’t need high 1st round RBs, WRs, etc. But pjcas is rebuttting that the same can be said of OL too. And he’s 100% right.

The whole idea is to get 5 starters who can do what their position and your scheme calls for, and do it well together, so I agree with the premise; and the Pats for most of their run is the best example.
Second, it would be interesting to find out what round the FAs were drafted in( my guess is most were rounds 1&2).
Third, I think you need at least 1 if not 2 home grown draft picks, generally top 2 rounds, as a base to start then use FA to improve weaker OL positions. Unfortunately we have at least 4 weak OL positions.

The mental gymnastics people do is silly.

If Reese didn’t suck balls at finding OL in his 11 years as a GM this wouldn’t be disciseeed.

Facts

Reese picked 1 OL in the first 3 years early. Beatty Rnd 2(average at best)
Then when the OL was a shit show he drafted 3 early who have all failed for different reasons.

His FA aqusitions habe all be shit.

I’ve said this over and over. He passed on Glenn for Wilson. Max Unger for Clint Sintim. For whatever reasons he and hos staff SUCKED SUCKED SUCKED at finding OL. Early late and in FA.

Let’s hope Gettleman and the new people and old can find NFL level guys. Where and when can vary

The two Super Bowl playing QBs this year were a 6th rounder and a 3rd rounder.

The two greatest QBs ever were also a 6th rounder and a 3rd rounder. Johnny Unitas was a 9th round pick and was then cut by the team that drafted him.

While Johnny Manziel, Ryan Leaf Todd Marinovich and Jeff George were all 1st round picks. Do you need any more proof that you don't need to draft a QB in the first round?

<sarcasm mode off now>

In comment 13827621 LauderdaleMatty said:

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The mental gymnastics people do is silly. If Reese didn’t suck balls at finding OL in his 11 years as a GM this wouldn’t be disciseeed. Facts Reese picked 1 OL in the first 3 years early. Beatty Rnd 2(average at best) Then when the OL was a shit show he drafted 3 early who have all failed for different reasons. His FA aqusitions habe all be shit. I’ve said this over and over. He passed on Glenn for Wilson. Max Unger for Clint Sintim. For whatever reasons he and hos staff SUCKED SUCKED SUCKED at finding OL. Early late and in FA. Let’s hope Gettleman and the new people and old can find NFL level guys. Where and when can vary

I also think it has to do with player development and coaching. Here's hoping our head coach and the rest of this staff can improve the people we have, Gettlemen and his team do a good job of finding not only talented players, but guys with their heads on straight (see Bobby Hart, Eli Apple, etc). Maybe they can turn a Flulker and a Flowers into cornerstones. Maybe a little more focus on the run game will make the parts we have better. Bring in a FA and a higher round draft pick, maybe resign Pugh...who knows. I'm just hoping Gettleman and team are better at evaluating EVERY position and not just LB's and OL. The VERY FIRST PICK they need to evaluate a QB like their lives depend on it ;)

it's kind of ironic that Reese invested more in his line than most of those teams (two firsts, a second, a third and a FA who was a 1st counting Fluker). As much as we all obviously knew he didn't do enough to fix the OL, it wasn't because he underspent resources. It was because he did not make good evaluations.

Evaluation is key, and someone who knows what they are looking for (hog mollies).

I'm excited for Gettleman to get a crack at fixing this mess.

Were total trash (as was OL coach "Mouse" McNally)

Pugh FAILED at OT, moved to guard and is barely OK (has NEVER played at 1st round pick level).

The only OL worthwhile pick in a LONG TIME was Snee, otherwise it's been a lengthy nightmare.

and good points.

If Gettleman get a proven FA or even 2 (1 is a necessity), they draft someone with potential between the 2nd and 4th, I think with what currently exists on the roster, the Giants have a chance to be a couple ticks better.

Add Barkley, with Gallman and Darkwa in the mix, we might have a huge turnaround.

In comment 13827768 Manny in CA said:

Quote:

Were total trash (as was OL coach "Mouse" McNally) Pugh FAILED at OT, moved to guard and is barely OK (has NEVER played at 1st round pick level). The only OL worthwhile pick in a LONG TIME was Snee, otherwise it's been a lengthy nightmare.

Bober Whittle and Rosenthal formed a solid offensive line in 2002. Sure they weren't good players after that but that line greatly exceeded expectations.

But is this news?

The Olines for the 2007 and 2011 championship seasons were largely put together by the pro talent evaluation our current GM

then they would be wise to target Cameron Fleming at RT. IF the plan is for Flowers to play RT then Chris Hubbard would be a good player to bring in to compete with him at RT and serve as depth. Guard Zach Fulton of the Chiefs is another potential option for Gettleman. He was a former 6th round pick that finally got a chance to start at G last year and he played very well. He is 26 and he could potentially solidify a guard spot at a very affordable rate.

Reese was, as far as the OL goes.....it's been 6 seasons since our last SB, and we don't have one building block in our OL....

And yet, once again, many on BBI think it can be fixed in one year.....it can be, but it is not likely....

We are going to have to be incredibly lucky in the draft and free agency for this to happen....

In comment 13828186 Doomster said:

Quote:

Reese was, as far as the OL goes.....it's been 6 seasons since our last SB, and we don't have one building block in our OL.... And yet, once again, many on BBI think it can be fixed in one year.....it can be, but it is not likely.... We are going to have to be incredibly lucky in the draft and free agency for this to happen....

What’s harder to believe is that owenership ignored that ineptitude. Which was on full display and never demanded any changes or adjustments.

They forced out Gilbride Fewell and then TC. While all the while Reese and his staff just continued to fuck up the OL. Right now Wheeler looks like the only kid who might be here still in 2-3 years(As a back up or starter but who knows )

But hey. Let’s draft more WRs, the DL or DBs. Funny how there’s this angst about wasting higher picks on The OL but We
We’re alwasy supposed to trust Reese despite all the misses over 11 years

Is that OL is not all about high draft picks it’s also about to getting five guys to work together. As every position in the NFL if someone gets hurt you have to have someone ready to step up and play. Decide what type of players your looking for then go out and find them in the draft and UDFA’s. If you prefer 6-0, CB’s why bring in 5-9 guys, if you want 6-4 318 guards don’t draft or sign guards 6-1 300. It’s not that hard to find players that fit your requirements just don’t change your requirements from player to player.

In comment 13827768 Manny in CA said:

Quote:

Pugh FAILED at OT, moved to guard and is barely OK (has NEVER played at 1st round pick level).

Pugh did not fail at OT. He was very good his rookie year. He was adequate his 2nd year playing with a hyperextended elbow for most of it, true not nearly as good as his rookie year.
Moved to guard and played very well. When moved back to tackle again proved to be the best lineman on the team. (see how well Vonn Miller did against him).

Pugh's only problem is his injuries and one wasn't even his fault - lots of OL lose time because of being rolled up on in the scrum.