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Proof OL do not need to come from the 1st round (long-ish)

pjcas18 : 2/9/2018 9:43 am
annual reminder that there are many ways to build successful NFL OL.

I felt like putting this together for the people who say Giants have to go OL, OL OL or something like that.

I think there might be a better chance of success with FA OL or bringing in a coach who can develop OL (if coachable players are being drafted). Point is every team in the league, highlighted by the 12 playoff teams get OL contribution, significant OL contribution without using 1st round picks.

Dallas has 3 1st round picks on their OL, and that might be the most in the NFL, and I believe they have won 1 playoff game in the history of most of those 3 1st rounders.

The below comes from ourlads depth charts, and represents the final depth chart (not verified for accuracy but believed to be accurate) and FA's can mean UFA, UDFA (called CFA by them: college free agents) W (claimed off waivers), or SF (street free agents)

Of the 12 playoff teams in 2018 here is the composition of their OLs:

PHI: 1 1st round pick, a 5th round pick a 6th round pick and 2 FA's

NE: 1 1st round pick, 1 3rd round pick, 2 4th round picks and a FA

JAX: 1 2nd round pick, 2 3rd round picks, 2 FA's

MIN: 1 3rd round pick, 3 FAs, 1 trade

those are the "final 4" teams and two 1st round picks, Solder and Lane Johnson.

the rest:

AFC:

PIT: 2 1st round picks, 1 2nd and 2 FA's
TEN: 2 1st round picks, 3 FA's
KC: 1 1st round pick, 2 6th round picks 2 FA's
BUF: 1 1st round pick, 1 2nd round pick, 3 FA's

NFC:

LAR: 2 2nd round picks, 1 3rd round pick, 2 FA's
SEA: 1 1st round pick, 2 2nd round picks, 1 trade, 1 FA
NO: 1 1st round pick, 1 3rd round pick, 1 trade, 1 FA
ATL: 1 1st round pick, 1 6th round pick, 3 FA's
I agree..  
chuckydee9 : 2/9/2018 10:04 am : link
Holes on a team should be replaced by adaquate FA.. and not be forced to draft a particular position in the Draft.. It should always be BPA in the draft...
Honestly  
superspynyg : 2/9/2018 10:06 am : link
It comes down to your scouting. There have been some great ol in round 1 and in rounds 2-5
What I get from that  
njm : 2/9/2018 10:22 am : link
Those OLs are dominated by picks in the first 3 rounds and FA signings. My guess is that some of those FAs were picked in the first 3 rounds.

So, if you have the cap room you can build with FA's, but it can be expensive and had gotten more so in recent years. But you also can not ignore OL at the top of the draft.
Missing on 1st and 2nd round picks is HUGE  
GiantsRage2007 : 2/9/2018 10:26 am : link
It's not that the OL wasn't addressed, it was just that the picks used were misses:

Flowers is a miss
Pugh seems to be as he's always hurt
Richburg regressed

There's 2 #1 and a #2 pick that can be characterized as misses. If they all were successful, we'd only have lower round picks and/or FA to fill in 2 spots, not the possibility of 4 or 5 new starters this season
We've been kicking this around for a while  
idiotsavant : 2/9/2018 10:28 am : link
How bout someone who played or coached chip in with 'zone vs power vs etc and types of linesmen for those respectively'

RE: What I get from that  
pjcas18 : 2/9/2018 10:29 am : link
In comment 13827462 njm said:
Quote:
Those OLs are dominated by picks in the first 3 rounds and FA signings. My guess is that some of those FAs were picked in the first 3 rounds.

So, if you have the cap room you can build with FA's, but it can be expensive and had gotten more so in recent years. But you also can not ignore OL at the top of the draft.


first three rounds is a big range. Huge difference in investment from a 3rd round pick and a 1st.

Takeaway is like another poster said, OL help can come from a variety of sources and the 1st round investment does not necessarily correlate to a successful player or a successful team.

If a team has the space I think FA's are a safer bet. If they stay healthy you know what you get, otherwise a lot of unknown and reliance on scouting and development.

this is true  
Rocky369 : 2/9/2018 10:38 am : link
of every single position on the field.
I would venture a guess that most LT's  
rasbutant : 2/9/2018 10:54 am : link
are former 1st rounders though.
This was evident years ago  
Jay on the Island : 2/9/2018 11:04 am : link
When the Giants built solid lines with the following:
2002 LT Petitgout LG Seubert C Bober RG Whittle RT Rosenthal
2005-2011 LT Diehl LG Seubert C O'Hara RG Snee RT McKenzie

The 2002 offensive line was supposed to be among the league's worst but Jim McNally did a fantastic job putting together a solid all round line with three former UDFA's on the interior and a 5th round pick at RT.


Just a rough count without  
rasbutant : 2/9/2018 11:09 am : link
looking up everyone.


It appear that 22 out of 32 starting LT's are former 1st round picks.
RE: this is true  
pjcas18 : 2/9/2018 11:19 am : link
In comment 13827484 Rocky369 said:
Quote:
of every single position on the field.


Of course, some people however see a need the knee jerk reaction is "we should be drafting OL in the 1st and 2nd round" because they think it's the only way to fill the need.

just thought seeing visually (or in word form) that most successful teams do not invest large amounts of 1st round picks in their OL's would help.
This gave me an idea  
AdamBrag : 2/9/2018 11:29 am : link
I looked at the playoff teams and broke down each offensive line based on whether the player was on their rookie deal and a draft pick or on a free agent deal, by position. Of course, there's a bunch of linemen who were draft picks for a team and then re-signed as free agents.

Left Tackle

Round 1 Draft Pick - 2
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 3
Round 4+ Draft pick - 0
High priced FA - 6
Mid priced FA - 1
Low priced FA - 0

Thoughts Left tackle is an expensive spot. It's either going to cost a high draft pick (2 of the 3 Day 2 picks were at the top of Round 2) or it's going to be a high priced FA.

Left guard

Round 1 Draft Pick - 0
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 2
Round 4+ Draft pick - 1
High priced FA - 1
Mid priced FA - 3
Low priced FA - 5

Thoughts This one was surprising. Very few high picks playing left guard and very few high priced free agents. Left guard seems to be a bargain position for a lot of playoff teams. Quenton Nelson and Andrew Norwell are being brought up a lot in discussion, this gives me pause.

Center

Round 1 Draft Pick - 0
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 2
Round 4+ Draft pick - 2
High priced FA - 6
Mid priced FA - 1
Low priced FA - 1

Thoughts - This was surprising to me too. Center is becoming a more valued position. Some teams are still getting value guys in the draft, but the ones who are working out are getting big contracts. We should certainly look for a C in the draft.

Right Guard

Round 1 Draft Pick - 0
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 3
Round 4+ Draft pick - 3
High priced FA - 2
Mid priced FA - 1
Low priced FA - 3

Thoughts - No real consensus here.

Right Tackle

Round 1 Draft Pick - 4
Round 2/3 Draft Pick - 3
Round 4+ Draft pick - 1
High priced FA - 1
Mid priced FA - 4
Low priced FA - 0

Thoughts - No surprise, right tackle is a valued position too. A lot of draft picks playing right tackle (maybe Flowers?) and then some midpriced free agents.


RE: I agree..  
mrvax : 2/9/2018 11:35 am : link
In comment 13827442 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
Holes on a team should be replaced by adaquate FA.. and not be forced to draft a particular position in the Draft.. It should always be BPA in the draft...


I agree to a certain point. I think on day 3, it's OK to fill holes that you couldn't in FA. Basically BPA at a position of need.
If quality O-linemen could only be found in the first round  
81_Great_Dane : 2/9/2018 11:46 am : link
then most teams would have to be drafting linemen half of the time or more. That's five positions to fill. Even if you got ten years out of each guy, you'd have to draft an O-lineman every other year. So I don't think anyone believes that the first round is the only place to find good linemen.

Ernie Accorsi said in interviews that he didn't believe in taking O-linemen in the first except for a "stud tackle." It does seem that left tackles come with a pedigree -- it's rare for a guy like Chad Wheeler to work his way up to starting LT in the pros. Even what David Diehl did was rare.

I think if you take a guard, center or right tackle in the first he'd better be a Pro Bowl-caliber player. On the other hand, you had better not count on getting a left tackle late--it's a bad gamble.

The stats above are very interesting and informative. Good reference for discussion on here.
Nice to see the data...  
trueblueinpw : 2/9/2018 11:46 am : link
Great OP and great follow up post by AdamBrag. Very interesting to see the data and then lay that over what's available in the draft and through FA.

It sounds simple, but its true, the NFL comes down to coaching and talent. I think we had the worst coaching staff in the NFL last season and the misses by our personnel department are well known around these parts. Glad we have new FO and new coaching staff.
I'll just note  
SirYesSir : 2/9/2018 11:47 am : link
that the op should note if these lists are from the start of the season, or week 17.

Injuries can often lead to a lot of those undratfed and late round players in the game. There are many teams that invest high picks in the OL
RE: this is true  
BigBlueShock : 2/9/2018 11:47 am : link
In comment 13827484 Rocky369 said:
Quote:
of every single position on the field.

This is true and that is EXACTLY pjcas point. The OL at all costs crowd always throws this around when discussing drafting any position on the field other than OL. They point to recent Super Bowl champions and say that it proves that you donít need high 1st round RBs, WRs, etc. But pjcas is rebuttting that the same can be said of OL too. And heís 100% right.
First  
old man : 2/9/2018 12:02 pm : link
The whole idea is to get 5 starters who can do what their position and your scheme calls for, and do it well together, so I agree with the premise; and the Pats for most of their run is the best example.
Second, it would be interesting to find out what round the FAs were drafted in( my guess is most were rounds 1&2).
Third, I think you need at least 1 if not 2 home grown draft picks, generally top 2 rounds, as a base to start then use FA to improve weaker OL positions. Unfortunately we have at least 4 weak OL positions.
You can say that about any position.  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/9/2018 12:34 pm : link
The mental gymnastics people do is silly.

If Reese didnít suck balls at finding OL in his 11 years as a GM this wouldnít be disciseeed.

Facts

Reese picked 1 OL in the first 3 years early. Beatty Rnd 2(average at best)
Then when the OL was a shit show he drafted 3 early who have all failed for different reasons.

His FA aqusitions habe all be shit.

Iíve said this over and over. He passed on Glenn for Wilson. Max Unger for Clint Sintim. For whatever reasons he and hos staff SUCKED SUCKED SUCKED at finding OL. Early late and in FA.

Letís hope Gettleman and the new people and old can find NFL level guys. Where and when can vary
Agreed! Same with the QB position  
JohnB : 2/9/2018 12:36 pm : link
The two Super Bowl playing QBs this year were a 6th rounder and a 3rd rounder.

The two greatest QBs ever were also a 6th rounder and a 3rd rounder. Johnny Unitas was a 9th round pick and was then cut by the team that drafted him.

While Johnny Manziel, Ryan Leaf Todd Marinovich and Jeff George were all 1st round picks. Do you need any more proof that you don't need to draft a QB in the first round?

<sarcasm mode off now>
RE: You can say that about any position.  
Dinger : 2/9/2018 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13827621 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
The mental gymnastics people do is silly.

If Reese didnít suck balls at finding OL in his 11 years as a GM this wouldnít be disciseeed.

Facts

Reese picked 1 OL in the first 3 years early. Beatty Rnd 2(average at best)
Then when the OL was a shit show he drafted 3 early who have all failed for different reasons.

His FA aqusitions habe all be shit.

Iíve said this over and over. He passed on Glenn for Wilson. Max Unger for Clint Sintim. For whatever reasons he and hos staff SUCKED SUCKED SUCKED at finding OL. Early late and in FA.

Letís hope Gettleman and the new people and old can find NFL level guys. Where and when can vary


I also think it has to do with player development and coaching. Here's hoping our head coach and the rest of this staff can improve the people we have, Gettlemen and his team do a good job of finding not only talented players, but guys with their heads on straight (see Bobby Hart, Eli Apple, etc). Maybe they can turn a Flulker and a Flowers into cornerstones. Maybe a little more focus on the run game will make the parts we have better. Bring in a FA and a higher round draft pick, maybe resign Pugh...who knows. I'm just hoping Gettleman and team are better at evaluating EVERY position and not just LB's and OL. The VERY FIRST PICK they need to evaluate a QB like their lives depend on it ;)
Very good post, it's as much about good evaluating as resources  
Eric on Li : 2/9/2018 1:25 pm : link
it's kind of ironic that Reese invested more in his line than most of those teams (two firsts, a second, a third and a FA who was a 1st counting Fluker). As much as we all obviously knew he didn't do enough to fix the OL, it wasn't because he underspent resources. It was because he did not make good evaluations.
Good post  
GiantTuff1 : 2/9/2018 2:04 pm : link
Evaluation is key, and someone who knows what they are looking for (hog mollies).

I'm excited for Gettleman to get a crack at fixing this mess.
Bober, Whittle, Rosenthal ...  
Manny in CA : 2/9/2018 2:14 pm : link

Were total trash (as was OL coach "Mouse" McNally)

Pugh FAILED at OT, moved to guard and is barely OK (has NEVER played at 1st round pick level).

The only OL worthwhile pick in a LONG TIME was Snee, otherwise it's been a lengthy nightmare.


Good post ...  
Beezer : 2/9/2018 2:21 pm : link
and good points.

If Gettleman get a proven FA or even 2 (1 is a necessity), they draft someone with potential between the 2nd and 4th, I think with what currently exists on the roster, the Giants have a chance to be a couple ticks better.

Add Barkley, with Gallman and Darkwa in the mix, we might have a huge turnaround.
RE: Bober, Whittle, Rosenthal ...  
Jay on the Island : 2/9/2018 7:17 pm : link
In comment 13827768 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Were total trash (as was OL coach "Mouse" McNally)

Pugh FAILED at OT, moved to guard and is barely OK (has NEVER played at 1st round pick level).

The only OL worthwhile pick in a LONG TIME was Snee, otherwise it's been a lengthy nightmare.


Bober Whittle and Rosenthal formed a solid offensive line in 2002. Sure they weren't good players after that but that line greatly exceeded expectations.
No offense  
Joey in VA : 2/9/2018 7:27 pm : link
But is this news?
I'll make one more point that needs to be made here  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/9/2018 7:32 pm : link
The Olines for the 2007 and 2011 championship seasons were largely put together by the pro talent evaluation our current GM
If the Giants are going to move Flowers inside to RG  
Jay on the Island : 2/9/2018 7:32 pm : link
then they would be wise to target Cameron Fleming at RT. IF the plan is for Flowers to play RT then Chris Hubbard would be a good player to bring in to compete with him at RT and serve as depth. Guard Zach Fulton of the Chiefs is another potential option for Gettleman. He was a former 6th round pick that finally got a chance to start at G last year and he played very well. He is 26 and he could potentially solidify a guard spot at a very affordable rate.
It's hard to believe how inept,  
Doomster : 2/10/2018 7:53 am : link
Reese was, as far as the OL goes.....it's been 6 seasons since our last SB, and we don't have one building block in our OL....

And yet, once again, many on BBI think it can be fixed in one year.....it can be, but it is not likely....

We are going to have to be incredibly lucky in the draft and free agency for this to happen....
RE: It's hard to believe how inept,  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/10/2018 9:06 am : link
In comment 13828186 Doomster said:
Quote:
Reese was, as far as the OL goes.....it's been 6 seasons since our last SB, and we don't have one building block in our OL....

And yet, once again, many on BBI think it can be fixed in one year.....it can be, but it is not likely....

We are going to have to be incredibly lucky in the draft and free agency for this to happen....


Whatís harder to believe is that owenership ignored that ineptitude. Which was on full display and never demanded any changes or adjustments.

They forced out Gilbride Fewell and then TC. While all the while Reese and his staff just continued to fuck up the OL. Right now Wheeler looks like the only kid who might be here still in 2-3 years(As a back up or starter but who knows )

But hey. Letís draft more WRs, the DL or DBs. Funny how thereís this angst about wasting higher picks on The OL but We
Weíre alwasy supposed to trust Reese despite all the misses over 11 years
Fact  
Dragon : 2/11/2018 5:21 am : link
Is that OL is not all about high draft picks itís also about to getting five guys to work together. As every position in the NFL if someone gets hurt you have to have someone ready to step up and play. Decide what type of players your looking for then go out and find them in the draft and UDFAís. If you prefer 6-0, CBís why bring in 5-9 guys, if you want 6-4 318 guards donít draft or sign guards 6-1 300. Itís not that hard to find players that fit your requirements just donít change your requirements from player to player.
RE: Bober, Whittle, Rosenthal ...  
section125 : 2/11/2018 9:17 am : link
In comment 13827768 Manny in CA said:
Quote:


Pugh FAILED at OT, moved to guard and is barely OK (has NEVER played at 1st round pick level).





Pugh did not fail at OT. He was very good his rookie year. He was adequate his 2nd year playing with a hyperextended elbow for most of it, true not nearly as good as his rookie year.
Moved to guard and played very well. When moved back to tackle again proved to be the best lineman on the team. (see how well Vonn Miller did against him).

Pugh's only problem is his injuries and one wasn't even his fault - lots of OL lose time because of being rolled up on in the scrum.
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