sounds about right. Might be able to get him for less.
Listen...he is getting 8 this year. If we Franchised him the following year he gets say $17M...probably not that much.
If you sign him now...you get a discount for doing so. Look at Nicks, he never got paid. OBJ knows he needs to get his money NOW. He will take a discount to get it. One hit and it is all over.
it wasn’t a ligament. All reports say it was a clean break. Broken bones heal well unless you are rushed back (Dez Bryant).
We shouldn’t have traded him 2 years ago and we shouldn’t trade him now. What funniest bout this suggestion is Reese and McAdoo would have gotten to use those supposed picks from Beckham which would have been awesome, right?
We have someone who structures great contracts and we aren’t in cap he’ll nor will be with a fully paid Beckham. It’s unreal how people don’t see this.
with the "When was the last time someone won a SuperBowl with a WR/RB" bullshit?
If you are suggesting that signing Beckham somehow makes it less likely that they win a Superbowl that is idiocy, if that's not the suggestion then the argument itself is meaningless nonsense. Which is it?
There is this thing called a salary cap. It limits the amount of money teams can spend per year on players. So it is resource management. Putting a large cap number into a WR, considering how vulnerable they are when hit and how much they depend on their speed and explosiveness, we as Giant fans know they are one injury away from being out of the league. What if Nicks or Cruz had a contract like Odell wants? It isn't signing Beckham that makes it less likely we win a a SB. It is HOW MUCH we sign him for...How much is too much for BEckham...At what point would you say no?
Players are hitting low because of fines and penalties. Odell was hit low. What happens the next time he is hit low? He is great, he changes how the defense plays us. I get all of that. I love watching him. Very risky putting that much Cap/Gmoney into him.
RE: He should have been traded 2 years ago like I kept saying Â
1. Beckham coming off an injury without showing any signs of maturing?
2. An extra first round pick last year- even if it was a late first like Garret Bolles or Ryan Ramcyzk, An extra this year and a good cost controlled LB?
I don't see how you can pay Beckham his market rate. He's eventually going to be playing with a young QB who will need a year or so to get his bearings.
I'd rather have Odell than Bolles and a LB and it isn't even close.
The whole "when was the last high paid WR ton win" Â
With Odell and with every player in the NFL. This wasn't the kind of injury that makes you fear future injuries. You can't let elite talent walk away at 25 years old because of a freak injury that he's expected to come back 100% from.
You also can't let him walk away because of money when you are paying your 37 year old, twilight of his career, QB elite money. You let Eli go and sign Odell if you are that limited with money. The Giants aren't, but the point remains.
The next point is regarding the cap. It's not like the NBA, you can easily manipulate contracts in the NFL to make it work. The Giants have plenty of levers to pull to create money when needed, it shouldn't be a concern at all. Certainly not of a concern where you let a superstar go.
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
In fairness, except in a year when a player collects his signing bonus, his cap number will never be lower than his cash earnings for that season. The signing bonus is the only element that gets amortized (which subsequently leads to the cap number being higher than cash earnings in the other seasons of the contract). So unless those QBs happened to receive a signing bonus in those seasons in which they won the SB, they didn't make more real dollars than their cap hit reflects.
with the "When was the last time someone won a SuperBowl with a WR/RB" bullshit?
If you are suggesting that signing Beckham somehow makes it less likely that they win a Superbowl that is idiocy, if that's not the suggestion then the argument itself is meaningless nonsense. Which is it?
There is this thing called a salary cap. It limits the amount of money teams can spend per year on players. So it is resource management. Putting a large cap number into a WR, considering how vulnerable they are when hit and how much they depend on their speed and explosiveness, we as Giant fans know they are one injury away from being out of the league. What if Nicks or Cruz had a contract like Odell wants? It isn't signing Beckham that makes it less likely we win a a SB. It is HOW MUCH we sign him for...How much is too much for BEckham...At what point would you say no?
We’d have a 3-13 year like we just did, which is better than an 8-8 year whether fans want to endure it or not.
There’s a risk even with trading, you can end up with another Flowers and no Beckham because you didn’t want to fork over some cap room which is easily manipulated.
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
In fairness, except in a year when a player collects his signing bonus, his cap number will never be lower than his cash earnings for that season. The signing bonus is the only element that gets amortized (which subsequently leads to the cap number being higher than cash earnings in the other seasons of the contract). So unless those QBs happened to receive a signing bonus in those seasons in which they won the SB, they didn't make more real dollars than their cap hit reflects.
Which will also happen with Beckham. Like Keith said the only number that matters is the cap number.
RE: RE: He should have been traded 2 years ago like I kept saying Â
1. Beckham coming off an injury without showing any signs of maturing?
2. An extra first round pick last year- even if it was a late first like Garret Bolles or Ryan Ramcyzk, An extra this year and a good cost controlled LB?
I don't see how you can pay Beckham his market rate. He's eventually going to be playing with a young QB who will need a year or so to get his bearings.
I'd rather have Odell than Bolles and a LB and it isn't even close.
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
In fairness, except in a year when a player collects his signing bonus, his cap number will never be lower than his cash earnings for that season. The signing bonus is the only element that gets amortized (which subsequently leads to the cap number being higher than cash earnings in the other seasons of the contract). So unless those QBs happened to receive a signing bonus in those seasons in which they won the SB, they didn't make more real dollars than their cap hit reflects.
Performance bonuses, roster bonuses, converting bonuses to salary, adding years, etc...there are a number of different ways to manipulate the cap number and the player would get paid more than their cap dollar. The Cowboys have players who adjust their contracts yearly and see more than their cap number. Obviously they are robbing peter to pay paul and will eventually have to pay the piper, but teams routinely do these things to massage the cap number.
Shit, apparently you can funnel money through their charities to save money on the cap, lol.
RE: RE: RE: He should have been traded 2 years ago like I kept saying Â
1. Beckham coming off an injury without showing any signs of maturing?
2. An extra first round pick last year- even if it was a late first like Garret Bolles or Ryan Ramcyzk, An extra this year and a good cost controlled LB?
I don't see how you can pay Beckham his market rate. He's eventually going to be playing with a young QB who will need a year or so to get his bearings.
I'd rather have Odell than Bolles and a LB and it isn't even close.
Re-read
I read it fine. That "extra first" isn't an actual player. Give me the guy who has proven to play at an elite NFL level.
all the more reason to have great weapons for a young, cheap QB, or do I have that wrong?
QBs don’t take 4 years to develop anymore - if they do they likely aren’t starting caliber anyway. And having less talent around them while they are devloping may be the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.
RE: He wants to be the highest player in the NFL Â
There is more than just the money. I am not a fan of tying up a large percentage of cap into a WR. Throw in that OBJ has some diva in him. He has acted a certain way(not that bad IMO) How is he going to act once he has enough guaranteed money to ensure his ancestors don't ever need to work? I would rather spend those dollar on OL or pass rushers.
His contract has absolutely nothing to do with whether his ancestors had to work or not. His descendants are another matter.
There is more than just the money. I am not a fan of tying up a large percentage of cap into a WR. Throw in that OBJ has some diva in him. He has acted a certain way(not that bad IMO) How is he going to act once he has enough guaranteed money to ensure his ancestors don't ever need to work? I would rather spend those dollar on OL or pass rushers.
His contract has absolutely nothing to do with whether his ancestors had to work or not. His descendants are another matter.
Maybe he has his ancestors frozen like Ted Williams and is just waiting til he has the money to bring them back
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
You really aren’t making much sense on this thread. If anyone busts their ass 24/7 it’s Beckham. And considering he didn’t blow his hand off I’d say he’s more moreture than JPP.
You don’t like the guy, just say it and move on. Because everything you are describing is immeasurable and trivial.
RE: “He will eventually be playing with a young QB” Â
all the more reason to have great weapons for a young, cheap QB, or do I have that wrong?
QBs don’t take 4 years to develop anymore - if they do they likely aren’t starting caliber anyway. And having less talent around them while they are devloping may be the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.
Also, I can guarantee that this question was asked of both Gettleman and Shurmur in their interviews:
"How do you deal with Beckham if he continues to act out of control on the field and hurts the team?"
Their answer was a huge part of why each was hired. I doubt their answer was a shoulder shrug and a comment about how you gotta let dogs be dogs.
I keep thinking of how John Mara must feel when he watches his star player score a TD and lift his leg like a dog to piss, or get ejected for repeated fighting, or going on shirtless boat trips before a playoff game . He knows that's not the Giants way and not how the team wins titles. Believe it or not the Giants are historically one of the most successful franchises in NFL history, and their way of doing business does work.
I doubt that they are going to let some chucklenuts continue to act out like a petulant child and not toe the line of team before player, I don't care how marketable he is.
This is all the same reasoning that leads me to believe that Darnold is the prize of the Giants eye. That kid SCREAMS Giants type player.
it means Beckham is staying or why bother focusing on that? His behavior is so overblown it’s comical. If I didn’t know any better I’d think he gets ejected every game by the comments on these threads.
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
Michael Irvin put scissors to his teammates neck and was blowing lines 24/7. Cowboys did fine. Randy Moss caught what should have been the game winning TD in the Super Bowl.
Cam Newton made it to a Super Bowl. LT worked out well for the Giants. Ray Lewis was a suspect in a homicide.
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
Michael Irvin put scissors to his teammates neck and was blowing lines 24/7. Cowboys did fine. Randy Moss caught what should have been the game winning TD in the Super Bowl.
Cam Newton made it to a Super Bowl. LT worked out well for the Giants. Ray Lewis was a suspect in a homicide.
a) What did Cam Newton ever do? He has a poor attitude sometimes when things aren't going well but I've never seen him get ejected for fighting or multiple 15 yard celebration penalties.
b) Ray Lewis actually did participate in killing someone. He turned state and then got amnesia knowing they were never really going to push the issue.
I find it laughable that some of you just overlook the baby shit that Beckham pulls. He is EXACTLY who Gettleman was talking about when he said he needs professional football players not men/kids who play professional football.
I actually only put the odds of Beckham being a Giants by the draft at 50/50. Trading him is EXACTLY the type of move that Gettleman wasn't afraid to do in Carolina.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You shouldn't have wasted your time Â
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
Michael Irvin put scissors to his teammates neck and was blowing lines 24/7. Cowboys did fine. Randy Moss caught what should have been the game winning TD in the Super Bowl.
Cam Newton made it to a Super Bowl. LT worked out well for the Giants. Ray Lewis was a suspect in a homicide.
a) What did Cam Newton ever do? He has a poor attitude sometimes when things aren't going well but I've never seen him get ejected for fighting or multiple 15 yard celebration penalties.
b) Ray Lewis actually did participate in killing someone. He turned state and then got amnesia knowing they were never really going to push the issue.
I find it laughable that some of you just overlook the baby shit that Beckham pulls. He is EXACTLY who Gettleman was talking about when he said he needs professional football players not men/kids who play professional football.
I actually only put the odds of Beckham being a Giants by the draft at 50/50. Trading him is EXACTLY the type of move that Gettleman wasn't afraid to do in Carolina.
So because Ray Lewis turned state, you could win with him?
Gettleman did nothing like trading Beckham in Carolina. Nothing.
Post the proof.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You shouldn't have wasted your time Â
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
Michael Irvin put scissors to his teammates neck and was blowing lines 24/7. Cowboys did fine. Randy Moss caught what should have been the game winning TD in the Super Bowl.
Cam Newton made it to a Super Bowl. LT worked out well for the Giants. Ray Lewis was a suspect in a homicide.
a) What did Cam Newton ever do? He has a poor attitude sometimes when things aren't going well but I've never seen him get ejected for fighting or multiple 15 yard celebration penalties.
b) Ray Lewis actually did participate in killing someone. He turned state and then got amnesia knowing they were never really going to push the issue.
I find it laughable that some of you just overlook the baby shit that Beckham pulls. He is EXACTLY who Gettleman was talking about when he said he needs professional football players not men/kids who play professional football.
I actually only put the odds of Beckham being a Giants by the draft at 50/50. Trading him is EXACTLY the type of move that Gettleman wasn't afraid to do in Carolina.
So because Ray Lewis turned state, you could win with him?
Gettleman did nothing like trading Beckham in Carolina. Nothing.
Beckham has to grow up a little. To me that means focus a bit more and keep your composure. To you it’s stop fighting with everyone, blowing off practice, and going on a coke binge.
Your depiction of him is so far out of touch that I can’t take your stance seriously.
he chose not to resign him because he didn’t think he was worth the money and was a product of the system. Couldn’t be any different of a scenario, holy shit.
So either Norman had expressed his willingness to stage a messy, sit-out over the franchise tag, or the Panthers are/were really dubious about his abilities and long-term prospects. Or the franchise was feeling extra charitable, and knowing they couldn’t deliver a big contract next year, and wanted to release Norman to get his money while he still can—which Norman did by signing a $75 million deal with the Redskins immediately after being shown the door in Carolina.
So how does that compare to Odell? You continue to make shit up and dodge questions.
Trading a 25 year old superstar receiver, arguably the greatest of all time through the first three years of his career is not comparable to cutting a formerly great receiver near the end of his career or pulling the tag on a 28 year old late round CB coming off his first year as a starter asking for insane money.
Odell is such a dumb idea. You will never get value. He is an absolute beast and takes over games. His is very charitable off the field, doesn’t beat woman, doesn’t carry around guns, do drugs etc... we struck gold when we drafted him. He’s gonna get a big contract and he deserves it. Luckily for us the bulk will come when Eli’s money is gone. I can’t believe people want to get rid of him because he gets emotional. He has a very good chance of breaking all receiving records. Why would you trade the best young WR in a pass happy league?
Is not going to sign for more than four or five years and he will at some point of this contract top the twenty million mark. There are a lot of great players in the NFL but being OBJ, playing in NY, his pre game and game performances are the greatest show in the NFL.
It’s not about anything more than a QB who just started what four games signed a deal for 27 million for five years. If your agent can’t get the greatest performer in the NFL without a doubt in the biggest media capital of the world twenty million Feed Him to the Lions. Love OBJ but his market value and this teams CAP situation just don’t add up to a good ending if he resigns. If you move many of the other CAP problem players it works but if you keep them and sign him welcome to CAP truly HELL.
Is not going to sign for more than four or five years and he will at some point of this contract top the twenty million mark. There are a lot of great players in the NFL but being OBJ, playing in NY, his pre game and game performances are the greatest show in the NFL.
It’s not about anything more than a QB who just started what four games signed a deal for 27 million for five years. If your agent can’t get the greatest performer in the NFL without a doubt in the biggest media capital of the world twenty million Feed Him to the Lions. Love OBJ but his market value and this teams CAP situation just don’t add up to a good ending if he resigns. If you move many of the other CAP problem players it works but if you keep them and sign him welcome to CAP truly HELL.
Eli has had over a $20 million cap hit and not to long ago they spent $100 million on defense.
Is not going to sign for more than four or five years and he will at some point of this contract top the twenty million mark. There are a lot of great players in the NFL but being OBJ, playing in NY, his pre game and game performances are the greatest show in the NFL.
It’s not about anything more than a QB who just started what four games signed a deal for 27 million for five years. If your agent can’t get the greatest performer in the NFL without a doubt in the biggest media capital of the world twenty million Feed Him to the Lions. Love OBJ but his market value and this teams CAP situation just don’t add up to a good ending if he resigns. If you move many of the other CAP problem players it works but if you keep them and sign him welcome to CAP truly HELL.
Bullshit. This team has a few outrageously overpaid players that do not earn it. Odell would not be one of them. He is not only by far the best player on the Giants, he is among the top 10 players in the league. You don't just ship off a talent like that for a few unknown draft picks.
I really don't understand why people are having so much trouble with this. I think they should bite the bullet now and move on from Eli but either way 2018 is likely Eli's last year with the team. So when Rosen or Darnold are making $6M a year and Eli's contract is off the books, it will be no issue whatsoever fitting Beckham in the cap. Not only that, you will be thanking the Lord that our new young QB has a guy like that to throw to.
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
In fairness, except in a year when a player collects his signing bonus, his cap number will never be lower than his cash earnings for that season. The signing bonus is the only element that gets amortized (which subsequently leads to the cap number being higher than cash earnings in the other seasons of the contract). So unless those QBs happened to receive a signing bonus in those seasons in which they won the SB, they didn't make more real dollars than their cap hit reflects.
Which will also happen with Beckham. Like Keith said the only number that matters is the cap number.
I'm as in favor of extending Beckham as anyone (maybe even more so), without qualifiers or what ifs. But with all due respect, I don't think either of you are really describing contract mechanisms correctly with regards to cap number.
All the stuff Keith mentions above is irrelevant except for the one thing he got backwards - converting salary to bonus (and only specifically in the form of a signing bonus, as I originally said) is the only way to amortize money across an NFL contract. All the other bonuses that Keith mentioned work just like salary in the year they're due. With that one and only exception of a signing bonus, it is not possible for a player to earn more real dollars than his cap number in any given season.
Can you even begin to contemplate trading Beckham when you see this? I also believe Eli is a HOF QB. The proof is right here.
I am 30 so I never got to see LT play...but for my generation Odell is LT. He is that good. Pay the man and he will help us win a Superbowl in the future
RE: I am just going to leave this here again for you east coasters Â
Can you even begin to contemplate trading Beckham when you see this? I also believe Eli is a HOF QB. The proof is right here.
I am 30 so I never got to see LT play...but for my generation Odell is LT. He is that good. Pay the man and he will help us win a Superbowl in the future
with the "When was the last time someone won a SuperBowl with a WR/RB" bullshit?
If you are suggesting that signing Beckham somehow makes it less likely that they win a Superbowl that is idiocy, if that's not the suggestion then the argument itself is meaningless nonsense. Which is it?
The answer to your question btw is just this past Sunday. The Eagles signed two big ticket WRs last offseason.
Is not the real issue it’s the other players grossly overpaid that present the CAP problems going forward. Each year in theory the CAP goes up but these players contracts also increase plus who will be the next overrated player they resign. These players have a much higher dollar value of themselves then realistic but they keep getting paid you have to stop that.
In reality in FA how many players have earned the big contracts signed by the Giants, Strahan, Barber, Eli his first extension, there are a few others but due to injuries or whatever for the most part it’s a loosing process. These players for the most part last three to five years in the NFL the odds after that decline drastically. FA It’s a flawed system why continue to use something that’s proven to be flawed over and over?
Is not the real issue it’s the other players grossly overpaid that present the CAP problems going forward. Each year in theory the CAP goes up but these players contracts also increase plus who will be the next overrated player they resign. These players have a much higher dollar value of themselves then realistic but they keep getting paid you have to stop that.
In reality in FA how many players have earned the big contracts signed by the Giants, Strahan, Barber, Eli his first extension, there are a few others but due to injuries or whatever for the most part it’s a loosing process. These players for the most part last three to five years in the NFL the odds after that decline drastically. FA It’s a flawed system why continue to use something that’s proven to be flawed over and over?
So because other players are overpaid we’re going to get rid of Odell? You’re not making any logical points.
I understand what you are saying, but you are missing my point. Example, you have a contract worth ..6 years-102 million with 40 gtd. On average, that player makes 17M per, but his cap number could be:
Year 1: 8M
Year 2: 12M
Year 3: 15M
Year4: 22M
Year 5: 25M
Year 6: 28M
So in year 4, the player converts his salary to a signing bonus and adds 2 years and his cap number never touches the average salary of 17M per. Maybe I did s poor job of explaining what I meant,but that’s my point.
Is not the real issue it’s the other players grossly overpaid that present the CAP problems going forward. Each year in theory the CAP goes up but these players contracts also increase plus who will be the next overrated player they resign. These players have a much higher dollar value of themselves then realistic but they keep getting paid you have to stop that.
In reality in FA how many players have earned the big contracts signed by the Giants, Strahan, Barber, Eli his first extension, there are a few others but due to injuries or whatever for the most part it’s a loosing process. These players for the most part last three to five years in the NFL the odds after that decline drastically. FA It’s a flawed system why continue to use something that’s proven to be flawed over and over?
Your argument makes no sense. So what is your solution? Playing money ball and flipping vets for draft picks to have a team full of players on rookie contracts and cheap vets?
So just because the Giants have given out bad contracts in the past they should just avoid giving a massive contract to the one player on the team that absolutely deserves it?
we are still well under the cap and very flexible. What part of that don’t people get?
obviously the same part that you don't seem to get is that compared to a lot of teams we are definitely not well under the cap and after we sign our draft choices we might have enough money for one decent FA.
Listen...he is getting 8 this year. If we Franchised him the following year he gets say $17M...probably not that much.
If you sign him now...you get a discount for doing so. Look at Nicks, he never got paid. OBJ knows he needs to get his money NOW. He will take a discount to get it. One hit and it is all over.
We shouldn’t have traded him 2 years ago and we shouldn’t trade him now. What funniest bout this suggestion is Reese and McAdoo would have gotten to use those supposed picks from Beckham which would have been awesome, right?
We have someone who structures great contracts and we aren’t in cap he’ll nor will be with a fully paid Beckham. It’s unreal how people don’t see this.
If you are suggesting that signing Beckham somehow makes it less likely that they win a Superbowl that is idiocy, if that's not the suggestion then the argument itself is meaningless nonsense. Which is it?
1. Beckham coming off an injury without showing any signs of maturing?
2. An extra first round pick last year- even if it was a late first like Garret Bolles or Ryan Ramcyzk, An extra this year and a good cost controlled LB?
I don't see how you can pay Beckham his market rate. He's eventually going to be playing with a young QB who will need a year or so to get his bearings.
I'd rather have Odell than Bolles and a LB and it isn't even close.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him.
Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You also can't let him walk away because of money when you are paying your 37 year old, twilight of his career, QB elite money. You let Eli go and sign Odell if you are that limited with money. The Giants aren't, but the point remains.
The next point is regarding the cap. It's not like the NBA, you can easily manipulate contracts in the NFL to make it work. The Giants have plenty of levers to pull to create money when needed, it shouldn't be a concern at all. Certainly not of a concern where you let a superstar go.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
Quote:
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
Spot on
Quote:
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
In fairness, except in a year when a player collects his signing bonus, his cap number will never be lower than his cash earnings for that season. The signing bonus is the only element that gets amortized (which subsequently leads to the cap number being higher than cash earnings in the other seasons of the contract). So unless those QBs happened to receive a signing bonus in those seasons in which they won the SB, they didn't make more real dollars than their cap hit reflects.
Quote:
with the "When was the last time someone won a SuperBowl with a WR/RB" bullshit?
If you are suggesting that signing Beckham somehow makes it less likely that they win a Superbowl that is idiocy, if that's not the suggestion then the argument itself is meaningless nonsense. Which is it?
There is this thing called a salary cap. It limits the amount of money teams can spend per year on players. So it is resource management. Putting a large cap number into a WR, considering how vulnerable they are when hit and how much they depend on their speed and explosiveness, we as Giant fans know they are one injury away from being out of the league. What if Nicks or Cruz had a contract like Odell wants? It isn't signing Beckham that makes it less likely we win a a SB. It is HOW MUCH we sign him for...How much is too much for BEckham...At what point would you say no?
We’d have a 3-13 year like we just did, which is better than an 8-8 year whether fans want to endure it or not.
There’s a risk even with trading, you can end up with another Flowers and no Beckham because you didn’t want to fork over some cap room which is easily manipulated.
Quote:
In comment 13828006 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
In fairness, except in a year when a player collects his signing bonus, his cap number will never be lower than his cash earnings for that season. The signing bonus is the only element that gets amortized (which subsequently leads to the cap number being higher than cash earnings in the other seasons of the contract). So unless those QBs happened to receive a signing bonus in those seasons in which they won the SB, they didn't make more real dollars than their cap hit reflects.
Which will also happen with Beckham. Like Keith said the only number that matters is the cap number.
Quote:
Which would you rather have right now?
1. Beckham coming off an injury without showing any signs of maturing?
2. An extra first round pick last year- even if it was a late first like Garret Bolles or Ryan Ramcyzk, An extra this year and a good cost controlled LB?
I don't see how you can pay Beckham his market rate. He's eventually going to be playing with a young QB who will need a year or so to get his bearings.
I'd rather have Odell than Bolles and a LB and it isn't even close.
Re-read
Quote:
In comment 13828006 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
In fairness, except in a year when a player collects his signing bonus, his cap number will never be lower than his cash earnings for that season. The signing bonus is the only element that gets amortized (which subsequently leads to the cap number being higher than cash earnings in the other seasons of the contract). So unless those QBs happened to receive a signing bonus in those seasons in which they won the SB, they didn't make more real dollars than their cap hit reflects.
Performance bonuses, roster bonuses, converting bonuses to salary, adding years, etc...there are a number of different ways to manipulate the cap number and the player would get paid more than their cap dollar. The Cowboys have players who adjust their contracts yearly and see more than their cap number. Obviously they are robbing peter to pay paul and will eventually have to pay the piper, but teams routinely do these things to massage the cap number.
Shit, apparently you can funnel money through their charities to save money on the cap, lol.
Quote:
In comment 13827978 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
Which would you rather have right now?
1. Beckham coming off an injury without showing any signs of maturing?
2. An extra first round pick last year- even if it was a late first like Garret Bolles or Ryan Ramcyzk, An extra this year and a good cost controlled LB?
I don't see how you can pay Beckham his market rate. He's eventually going to be playing with a young QB who will need a year or so to get his bearings.
I'd rather have Odell than Bolles and a LB and it isn't even close.
Re-read
I read it fine. That "extra first" isn't an actual player. Give me the guy who has proven to play at an elite NFL level.
QBs don’t take 4 years to develop anymore - if they do they likely aren’t starting caliber anyway. And having less talent around them while they are devloping may be the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.
His contract has absolutely nothing to do with whether his ancestors had to work or not. His descendants are another matter.
Quote:
There is more than just the money. I am not a fan of tying up a large percentage of cap into a WR. Throw in that OBJ has some diva in him. He has acted a certain way(not that bad IMO) How is he going to act once he has enough guaranteed money to ensure his ancestors don't ever need to work? I would rather spend those dollar on OL or pass rushers.
His contract has absolutely nothing to do with whether his ancestors had to work or not. His descendants are another matter.
Maybe he has his ancestors frozen like Ted Williams and is just waiting til he has the money to bring them back
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
Quote:
reading that nonsense the first time.
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
You really aren’t making much sense on this thread. If anyone busts their ass 24/7 it’s Beckham. And considering he didn’t blow his hand off I’d say he’s more moreture than JPP.
You don’t like the guy, just say it and move on. Because everything you are describing is immeasurable and trivial.
QBs don’t take 4 years to develop anymore - if they do they likely aren’t starting caliber anyway. And having less talent around them while they are devloping may be the dumbest thing Ive ever heard.
Also, I can guarantee that this question was asked of both Gettleman and Shurmur in their interviews:
"How do you deal with Beckham if he continues to act out of control on the field and hurts the team?"
Their answer was a huge part of why each was hired. I doubt their answer was a shoulder shrug and a comment about how you gotta let dogs be dogs.
I keep thinking of how John Mara must feel when he watches his star player score a TD and lift his leg like a dog to piss, or get ejected for repeated fighting, or going on shirtless boat trips before a playoff game . He knows that's not the Giants way and not how the team wins titles. Believe it or not the Giants are historically one of the most successful franchises in NFL history, and their way of doing business does work.
I doubt that they are going to let some chucklenuts continue to act out like a petulant child and not toe the line of team before player, I don't care how marketable he is.
This is all the same reasoning that leads me to believe that Darnold is the prize of the Giants eye. That kid SCREAMS Giants type player.
Quote:
reading that nonsense the first time.
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
Michael Irvin put scissors to his teammates neck and was blowing lines 24/7. Cowboys did fine. Randy Moss caught what should have been the game winning TD in the Super Bowl.
Cam Newton made it to a Super Bowl. LT worked out well for the Giants. Ray Lewis was a suspect in a homicide.
Quote:
In comment 13828036 Keith said:
Quote:
reading that nonsense the first time.
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
Michael Irvin put scissors to his teammates neck and was blowing lines 24/7. Cowboys did fine. Randy Moss caught what should have been the game winning TD in the Super Bowl.
Cam Newton made it to a Super Bowl. LT worked out well for the Giants. Ray Lewis was a suspect in a homicide.
a) What did Cam Newton ever do? He has a poor attitude sometimes when things aren't going well but I've never seen him get ejected for fighting or multiple 15 yard celebration penalties.
b) Ray Lewis actually did participate in killing someone. He turned state and then got amnesia knowing they were never really going to push the issue.
I find it laughable that some of you just overlook the baby shit that Beckham pulls. He is EXACTLY who Gettleman was talking about when he said he needs professional football players not men/kids who play professional football.
I actually only put the odds of Beckham being a Giants by the draft at 50/50. Trading him is EXACTLY the type of move that Gettleman wasn't afraid to do in Carolina.
Quote:
In comment 13828090 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
In comment 13828036 Keith said:
Quote:
reading that nonsense the first time.
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
Michael Irvin put scissors to his teammates neck and was blowing lines 24/7. Cowboys did fine. Randy Moss caught what should have been the game winning TD in the Super Bowl.
Cam Newton made it to a Super Bowl. LT worked out well for the Giants. Ray Lewis was a suspect in a homicide.
a) What did Cam Newton ever do? He has a poor attitude sometimes when things aren't going well but I've never seen him get ejected for fighting or multiple 15 yard celebration penalties.
b) Ray Lewis actually did participate in killing someone. He turned state and then got amnesia knowing they were never really going to push the issue.
I find it laughable that some of you just overlook the baby shit that Beckham pulls. He is EXACTLY who Gettleman was talking about when he said he needs professional football players not men/kids who play professional football.
I actually only put the odds of Beckham being a Giants by the draft at 50/50. Trading him is EXACTLY the type of move that Gettleman wasn't afraid to do in Carolina.
So because Ray Lewis turned state, you could win with him?
Gettleman did nothing like trading Beckham in Carolina. Nothing.
Post the proof.
Quote:
In comment 13828101 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13828090 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
In comment 13828036 Keith said:
Quote:
reading that nonsense the first time.
He's like a MORE immature JPP. Good thing we tossed that money away.
Look I know it sucks- but you can't win with guys like that. Give me the guy who busts his ass 24/7 and isn't a looney toon even if he has less talent every single day.
Michael Irvin put scissors to his teammates neck and was blowing lines 24/7. Cowboys did fine. Randy Moss caught what should have been the game winning TD in the Super Bowl.
Cam Newton made it to a Super Bowl. LT worked out well for the Giants. Ray Lewis was a suspect in a homicide.
a) What did Cam Newton ever do? He has a poor attitude sometimes when things aren't going well but I've never seen him get ejected for fighting or multiple 15 yard celebration penalties.
b) Ray Lewis actually did participate in killing someone. He turned state and then got amnesia knowing they were never really going to push the issue.
I find it laughable that some of you just overlook the baby shit that Beckham pulls. He is EXACTLY who Gettleman was talking about when he said he needs professional football players not men/kids who play professional football.
I actually only put the odds of Beckham being a Giants by the draft at 50/50. Trading him is EXACTLY the type of move that Gettleman wasn't afraid to do in Carolina.
So because Ray Lewis turned state, you could win with him?
Gettleman did nothing like trading Beckham in Carolina. Nothing.
Post the proof.
Your depiction of him is so far out of touch that I can’t take your stance seriously.
So how does that compare to Odell? You continue to make shit up and dodge questions.
It’s not about anything more than a QB who just started what four games signed a deal for 27 million for five years. If your agent can’t get the greatest performer in the NFL without a doubt in the biggest media capital of the world twenty million Feed Him to the Lions. Love OBJ but his market value and this teams CAP situation just don’t add up to a good ending if he resigns. If you move many of the other CAP problem players it works but if you keep them and sign him welcome to CAP truly HELL.
It’s not about anything more than a QB who just started what four games signed a deal for 27 million for five years. If your agent can’t get the greatest performer in the NFL without a doubt in the biggest media capital of the world twenty million Feed Him to the Lions. Love OBJ but his market value and this teams CAP situation just don’t add up to a good ending if he resigns. If you move many of the other CAP problem players it works but if you keep them and sign him welcome to CAP truly HELL.
Eli has had over a $20 million cap hit and not to long ago they spent $100 million on defense.
It’s not about anything more than a QB who just started what four games signed a deal for 27 million for five years. If your agent can’t get the greatest performer in the NFL without a doubt in the biggest media capital of the world twenty million Feed Him to the Lions. Love OBJ but his market value and this teams CAP situation just don’t add up to a good ending if he resigns. If you move many of the other CAP problem players it works but if you keep them and sign him welcome to CAP truly HELL.
Bullshit. This team has a few outrageously overpaid players that do not earn it. Odell would not be one of them. He is not only by far the best player on the Giants, he is among the top 10 players in the league. You don't just ship off a talent like that for a few unknown draft picks.
I really don't understand why people are having so much trouble with this. I think they should bite the bullet now and move on from Eli but either way 2018 is likely Eli's last year with the team. So when Rosen or Darnold are making $6M a year and Eli's contract is off the books, it will be no issue whatsoever fitting Beckham in the cap. Not only that, you will be thanking the Lord that our new young QB has a guy like that to throw to.
Quote:
In comment 13828011 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 13828006 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
argument is stupid. There's no direct correlation, just a lot of coincidence. You can do this with any position.
Take a look at the cap hits for QB's. Only 7 times from 1994-2016 did the winning team have a QB with taking up double digits in the cap hit.
Maybe we should have traded Eli for a couple of firsts before paying him. Cap Hit - ( New Window )
You know whats funny about that list? A large portion of those QB's probably made more money than 99% of the league, yet the cap hit may not say so. Why? Because the cap hit number can be manipulated in a number of different ways and it's the only number fans should care about. Average contract value means absolutely nothing.
In fairness, except in a year when a player collects his signing bonus, his cap number will never be lower than his cash earnings for that season. The signing bonus is the only element that gets amortized (which subsequently leads to the cap number being higher than cash earnings in the other seasons of the contract). So unless those QBs happened to receive a signing bonus in those seasons in which they won the SB, they didn't make more real dollars than their cap hit reflects.
Which will also happen with Beckham. Like Keith said the only number that matters is the cap number.
I'm as in favor of extending Beckham as anyone (maybe even more so), without qualifiers or what ifs. But with all due respect, I don't think either of you are really describing contract mechanisms correctly with regards to cap number.
All the stuff Keith mentions above is irrelevant except for the one thing he got backwards - converting salary to bonus (and only specifically in the form of a signing bonus, as I originally said) is the only way to amortize money across an NFL contract. All the other bonuses that Keith mentioned work just like salary in the year they're due. With that one and only exception of a signing bonus, it is not possible for a player to earn more real dollars than his cap number in any given season.
Eli Manning career stats as of week 2 2017:
Targeting Odell Beckham: 63%, 35-7 TD/INT, 111.4 passer rating
Targeting anyone else: 59.5%, 285-209 TD/INT, 79.9 passer rating.
Can you even begin to contemplate trading Beckham when you see this? I also believe Eli is a HOF QB. The proof is right here.
I am 30 so I never got to see LT play...but for my generation Odell is LT. He is that good. Pay the man and he will help us win a Superbowl in the future
Eli Manning career stats as of week 2 2017:
Targeting Odell Beckham: 63%, 35-7 TD/INT, 111.4 passer rating
Targeting anyone else: 59.5%, 285-209 TD/INT, 79.9 passer rating.
Can you even begin to contemplate trading Beckham when you see this? I also believe Eli is a HOF QB. The proof is right here.
I am 30 so I never got to see LT play...but for my generation Odell is LT. He is that good. Pay the man and he will help us win a Superbowl in the future
+1 Totally agree.
If you are suggesting that signing Beckham somehow makes it less likely that they win a Superbowl that is idiocy, if that's not the suggestion then the argument itself is meaningless nonsense. Which is it?
The answer to your question btw is just this past Sunday. The Eagles signed two big ticket WRs last offseason.
In reality in FA how many players have earned the big contracts signed by the Giants, Strahan, Barber, Eli his first extension, there are a few others but due to injuries or whatever for the most part it’s a loosing process. These players for the most part last three to five years in the NFL the odds after that decline drastically. FA It’s a flawed system why continue to use something that’s proven to be flawed over and over?
In reality in FA how many players have earned the big contracts signed by the Giants, Strahan, Barber, Eli his first extension, there are a few others but due to injuries or whatever for the most part it’s a loosing process. These players for the most part last three to five years in the NFL the odds after that decline drastically. FA It’s a flawed system why continue to use something that’s proven to be flawed over and over?
So because other players are overpaid we’re going to get rid of Odell? You’re not making any logical points.
Year 1: 8M
Year 2: 12M
Year 3: 15M
Year4: 22M
Year 5: 25M
Year 6: 28M
So in year 4, the player converts his salary to a signing bonus and adds 2 years and his cap number never touches the average salary of 17M per. Maybe I did s poor job of explaining what I meant,but that’s my point.
In reality in FA how many players have earned the big contracts signed by the Giants, Strahan, Barber, Eli his first extension, there are a few others but due to injuries or whatever for the most part it’s a loosing process. These players for the most part last three to five years in the NFL the odds after that decline drastically. FA It’s a flawed system why continue to use something that’s proven to be flawed over and over?
Your argument makes no sense. So what is your solution? Playing money ball and flipping vets for draft picks to have a team full of players on rookie contracts and cheap vets?
So just because the Giants have given out bad contracts in the past they should just avoid giving a massive contract to the one player on the team that absolutely deserves it?