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How Does Flowers Project to Guard?

Capt. Don : 2/10/2018 9:35 am
The tendency (understandably so) for tackles who struggle is to move them inside to guard where they are not in space. I think that worked well with Pugh (when he was healthy) but it isnt always a solution.

David Diehl as I recall was a much better tackle than guard despite not having what you would consider good physical skills for the position.

So my question is, would Flower's skill set translate to a top tier guard? Or is there something about his skill set and physical stature that would actually be a hindrance. Height for example.
I think we have 1 year to find out.  
superspynyg : 2/10/2018 9:38 am : link
RT guard should be his. Question is who plays RT?
As of now with Norwell rumors in the mix...

Wheeler-Norwell—Jones/draft pick-Flowers-Pugh (maybe)

Flowers definitely needs to find a different home than Left Tackle  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2018 9:47 am : link
I hope he can otherwise that home will be on the bench...
First I think they have to move him to RT  
Jay on the Island : 2/10/2018 9:52 am : link
if he still struggles there in camp then he should be moved inside to RG. I hope they move him to the right side at the beginning of OTA's so that he can get comfortable on the right side.
He has the physical skillset to play Tackle or Guard.  
Brown Recluse : 2/10/2018 9:52 am : link
He just hasnt corrected his bad habits. Moving him to Guard will hopefully salvage what thus far has been a colossal draft mistake. Dont know what will happen there. Its up to Flowers.
RE: First I think they have to move him to RT  
jeff57 : 2/10/2018 9:56 am : link
In comment 13828274 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
if he still struggles there in camp then he should be moved inside to RG. I hope they move him to the right side at the beginning of OTA's so that he can get comfortable on the right side.


Yeah. He should be given first shot at RT.
RE: I think we have 1 year to find out.  
Beer Man : 2/10/2018 9:57 am : link
In comment 13828266 superspynyg said:
Quote:
RT guard should be his. Question is who plays RT?
As of now with Norwell rumors in the mix...

Wheeler-Norwell—Jones/draft pick-Flowers-Pugh (maybe)
+1, I think Fluker should be in the mix as well. If anyone fits the name "Hogmollie" it has to be Fluker.
RE: I think we have 1 year to find out.  
Brown Recluse : 2/10/2018 10:18 am : link
In comment 13828266 superspynyg said:
Quote:
RT guard should be his. Question is who plays RT?
As of now with Norwell rumors in the mix...

Wheeler-Norwell—Jones/draft pick-Flowers-Pugh (maybe)


Wheeler and Jones are players you settle on, not players you build on.
I keep thinking  
joeinpa : 2/10/2018 10:21 am : link
Of William Roberts.

From. bust to very good player
RE: RE: I think we have 1 year to find out.  
Capt. Don : 2/10/2018 10:23 am : link
In comment 13828285 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13828266 superspynyg said:


Quote:


RT guard should be his. Question is who plays RT?
As of now with Norwell rumors in the mix...

Wheeler-Norwell—Jones/draft pick-Flowers-Pugh (maybe)




Wheeler and Jones are players you settle on, not players you build on.


Agreed. I think people got "excited" about Wheeler because he wasnt awful all the time. I get that because our expectations are so low but I think he is swing material.
Absolutely not  
rich in DC : 2/10/2018 10:28 am : link
Flowers (speaking generally) strengths are, literally his size and strength. However, his weakness is that he has bad hand use and inconsistent feet.

AS a OG, that would be a BIG problem. Flowers has enough problems trying to properly use his hands to redirect small DE and LB- imagine how a good DT would just brush him aside. The inconsistent feet would lead to a lot of LB blowing right by him as he struggles to set.

No, he needs to work at an end (RT would be preferred) where he has a little space to work with and can take his man outside if he can't get his hands on him. At OG, he has to control and move the man- that means good technical hand skills that he just has not shown to date.

If we thought the 2017 Giants OL were bad, it could be worse using Flowers inside.

Just put Flowers at RT and leave him be. Think Kareem McKenzie- not exciting and not overpowering, but get the job done.
As of right now Flowers is the starting  
Dave on the UWS : 2/10/2018 10:28 am : link
LOT. Don't think we can make any projections until we see how free agency goes.
As of now...Flowers should just be a guy on the roster  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2018 10:30 am : link
Keep saying he is the default "starting anything" is what was the problem with the last regime...

...  
christian : 2/10/2018 10:33 am : link
Very surprisingly Flowers had a much better time with John Jerry next door.

He's going to open camp at LT - this is literally career making months for him.
And I agree with Rich  
Dave on the UWS : 2/10/2018 10:39 am : link
most of the scouts coming out thought he was suited for RT. Only Reese projected him as a starting LOT. par for the course.
RE: As of now...Flowers should just be a guy on the roster  
McNally's_Nuts : 2/10/2018 10:51 am : link
In comment 13828295 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Keep saying he is the default "starting anything" is what was the problem with the last regime...


This
He shouldn't be given any starting job yet, and I would also have  
PatersonPlank : 2/10/2018 10:53 am : link
reservations about him at RT. I understand the differences between LT, but there are also commonalities too. In addition the clear distinction is dimming as defenses put better and better pass rushers on that side. He may not be our best RT either. Frankly I'd try him at Guard.
Rich is kind of disrespecting McKenzie. McKenzie came in as a solid  
Ivan15 : 2/10/2018 10:54 am : link
FA pick. He was given the RT job and improved to a pro bowl level.
They aren’t going to solve entire OLine this year  
UberAlias : 2/10/2018 11:26 am : link
In situations like that what you do is get guys in there and let them compete. That was one of McAdoos fatal flaws. Poor OLine and failed to generate any competition. No OLine on the current roster should be guaranteed anything.
I hope he gets a clean slate  
larryflower37 : 2/10/2018 12:23 pm : link
and is evaluated honestly.
Fans were too hard on him and the old regime gave him too many passes.
An honest Eval. and solid coaching he might turn out to be successful. He has a good skill set but does too many things wrong that have never been corrected. (dropping his head, bad hand placement, etc).
If you can bring Norwell here, another medium priced FA, and draft an OL in the 2nd we can have a respectable line quickly.
...  
christian : 2/10/2018 12:31 pm : link
On the surface he didn't have a bad year. He went long stretches without giving up a sack, and had a handful of nice games where he gave up little to no pressure.

He's not a great LT, and maybe he's not universally thought of as good even.

But he's not an unequivocally bad player who needs immediate replacement.

He's cost controlled for 2 more years and when surrounded by a better cast, especially when the team can run the ball, he's sufficient.

Flowers suffers from being picked top 10.

If he was a 2nd round pick, I can't imagine the same hairdo being made over his play.
RE: Absolutely not  
AdamBrag : 2/10/2018 12:39 pm : link
In comment 13828290 rich in DC said:
Quote:
Flowers (speaking generally) strengths are, literally his size and strength. However, his weakness is that he has bad hand use and inconsistent feet.

AS a OG, that would be a BIG problem. Flowers has enough problems trying to properly use his hands to redirect small DE and LB- imagine how a good DT would just brush him aside. The inconsistent feet would lead to a lot of LB blowing right by him as he struggles to set.

No, he needs to work at an end (RT would be preferred) where he has a little space to work with and can take his man outside if he can't get his hands on him. At OG, he has to control and move the man- that means good technical hand skills that he just has not shown to date.

If we thought the 2017 Giants OL were bad, it could be worse using Flowers inside.

Just put Flowers at RT and leave him be. Think Kareem McKenzie- not exciting and not overpowering, but get the job done.


This.

He projects very poorly to guard. When he was drafted, he was going to play RT, but then Will Beatty got injured and they were forced to play him at LT. He should get a shot at RT.
Think with his size, power  
TMS : 2/10/2018 1:22 pm : link
and attitude he could be a monster there wiith the right techniques and development. If we do not do it somebody else will IMO.
Well said, Adam ...  
Manny in CA : 2/10/2018 1:48 pm : link

He doesn't have the feet to deal with the speed DEs that are featured against the QB's blind side, but he does project very well on the right side (which is normally the running side for most teams)

Fluker (who was improving a lot before he got hurt) & Flowers can be a "poor man's" Snee-McKinzie combo.

If we move Flowers to the right side, 40% of the problem is fixed. Left Tackle can be fixed by signing Nate Solder, Left Guard by signing Andrew Norwell or drafting Quenton Nelson and Center by drafting either Frank Ragnow or Bradley Bozeman
I may be crazy to say it, but ...  
Manny in CA : 2/10/2018 1:55 pm : link

I think we're only four players away from making a serious championship run THIS year ....

Left Tackle, Left Guard, Center and either a top tier running back (Barkely ?) or an excellent complimentary reciever opposite OBJ.
He made some inroads last year.  
MOOPS : 2/10/2018 2:04 pm : link
He did a lot of work in the off-season to improve himself.
He lost weight which helped with his mobility.
Problem was his stamina was not nearly what it needed to be. He was like a heavyweight boxer in the eighth round of a fight by the time he got into the third quarter. Form went out the window and he'd just lean in and lay on his opponent. Not a good idea against a speed rush.
He will be what he wills himself to be. He has the ability to be a good RT if he can improve his footwork and stamina. It's up to him and how much work he's willing to put in.
He should be able to handle the G position.
RE: Absolutely not  
FStubbs : 2/10/2018 2:07 pm : link
In comment 13828290 rich in DC said:
Quote:
Flowers (speaking generally) strengths are, literally his size and strength. However, his weakness is that he has bad hand use and inconsistent feet.

AS a OG, that would be a BIG problem. Flowers has enough problems trying to properly use his hands to redirect small DE and LB- imagine how a good DT would just brush him aside. The inconsistent feet would lead to a lot of LB blowing right by him as he struggles to set.

No, he needs to work at an end (RT would be preferred) where he has a little space to work with and can take his man outside if he can't get his hands on him. At OG, he has to control and move the man- that means good technical hand skills that he just has not shown to date.

If we thought the 2017 Giants OL were bad, it could be worse using Flowers inside.

Just put Flowers at RT and leave him be. Think Kareem McKenzie- not exciting and not overpowering, but get the job done.


If Flowers suddenly made the leap to being Kareem McKenzie that would be incredible.
RE: I may be crazy to say it, but ...  
TMS : 2/10/2018 2:12 pm : link
In comment 13828465 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

I think we're only four players away from making a serious championship run THIS year ....

Left Tackle, Left Guard, Center and either a top tier running back (Barkely ?) or an excellent complimentary reciever opposite OBJ.
Agree hopefully, remember we were 11/5 two years ago. Fix the OL and escape the injury shit and we could come back with a lot of playmakers on both sides of the line. Think ELI has a few more good years as well.
Balance is either a weakness he has...or  
idiotsavant : 2/10/2018 2:15 pm : link
He doesn't trust his balance.

It can be improved with specific routines, so that's helpful.

In addition - macball handed the initiative to the opposing DL far too often. I felt that made things harder for him as a developing player.

Folks at times assume a skills hierarchy from C up to OT and its simply not that simple.

Each.player.is.different.

Flowers as a guard? No real reason to think he is any better at G than at OT so far.
RE: As of now...Flowers should just be a guy on the roster  
widmerseyebrow : 2/10/2018 2:48 pm : link
In comment 13828295 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Keep saying he is the default "starting anything" is what was the problem with the last regime...


Yep. This guy needs competition for once in his career.
He's only 22, and his athleticism is off the charts!  
Glover : 2/10/2018 2:52 pm : link
So glad no one is saying that anymmore.
RE: RE: Absolutely not  
McNally's_Nuts : 2/10/2018 3:02 pm : link
In comment 13828480 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 13828290 rich in DC said:


Quote:


Flowers (speaking generally) strengths are, literally his size and strength. However, his weakness is that he has bad hand use and inconsistent feet.

AS a OG, that would be a BIG problem. Flowers has enough problems trying to properly use his hands to redirect small DE and LB- imagine how a good DT would just brush him aside. The inconsistent feet would lead to a lot of LB blowing right by him as he struggles to set.

No, he needs to work at an end (RT would be preferred) where he has a little space to work with and can take his man outside if he can't get his hands on him. At OG, he has to control and move the man- that means good technical hand skills that he just has not shown to date.

If we thought the 2017 Giants OL were bad, it could be worse using Flowers inside.

Just put Flowers at RT and leave him be. Think Kareem McKenzie- not exciting and not overpowering, but get the job done.



If Flowers suddenly made the leap to being Kareem McKenzie that would be incredible.


For real. Kareem McKenzie was one the best free agent signings the Giants ever had. Probably the best right tackle in Giants history
Christian -  
Diver_Down : 2/10/2018 3:43 pm : link
Ereck is not cost-controlled for 2 more years. This is the final year of his rookie contract. There is a 5th year option that can be elected to be picked up in May, but because he was a Top 10 pick, it is calculated differently than other 1st rounders. His 5th year option is $14M+ guaranteed for injury so if he tweaks his ankle and is unable to pass the physical at the start of the league year in 2019, he gets $14M.

In no alternative universe is $14M considered cost-controlled.
Flowers Contract - ( New Window )
RE: Well said, Adam ...  
HomerJones45 : 2/10/2018 4:11 pm : link
In comment 13828459 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

He doesn't have the feet to deal with the speed DEs that are featured against the QB's blind side, but he does project very well on the right side (which is normally the running side for most teams)

Fluker (who was improving a lot before he got hurt) & Flowers can be a "poor man's" Snee-McKinzie combo.

If we move Flowers to the right side, 40% of the problem is fixed. Left Tackle can be fixed by signing Nate Solder, Left Guard by signing Andrew Norwell or drafting Quenton Nelson and Center by drafting either Frank Ragnow or Bradley Bozeman
Fluker sucks. If he wasn't known as a first round pick, we wouldn't have picked him up and he'd probably be out of football. He gets push on occasion in the run game if his man is right in front of him and he's a pass blocking liability. In other words, no different than when the Chargers, who tried him at tackle and guard, cut him.

Stop wishing for hambones to magically transform into good players. He is what he is at this point, a bum.
RE: RE: Well said, Adam ...  
Beer Man : 2/10/2018 4:33 pm : link
In comment 13828584 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13828459 Manny in CA said:


Quote:



He doesn't have the feet to deal with the speed DEs that are featured against the QB's blind side, but he does project very well on the right side (which is normally the running side for most teams)

Fluker (who was improving a lot before he got hurt) & Flowers can be a "poor man's" Snee-McKinzie combo.

If we move Flowers to the right side, 40% of the problem is fixed. Left Tackle can be fixed by signing Nate Solder, Left Guard by signing Andrew Norwell or drafting Quenton Nelson and Center by drafting either Frank Ragnow or Bradley Bozeman

Fluker sucks. If he wasn't known as a first round pick, we wouldn't have picked him up and he'd probably be out of football. He gets push on occasion in the run game if his man is right in front of him and he's a pass blocking liability. In other words, no different than when the Chargers, who tried him at tackle and guard, cut him.

Stop wishing for hambones to magically transform into good players. He is what he is at this point, a bum.
I guess we weren't watching the same player
Flowers will be another  
Doomster : 2/11/2018 9:54 am : link
draft pick that isn't re-signed....

In 2019, there will not be one starter from the 2017 OL still playing for the Giants...hopefully....
It's a total mystery...  
Torrag : 2/11/2018 1:21 pm : link
...and a mental exercise to project how Flowers would perform at RT or OG as he's never done it. So have at it but tere's only one way to find out.

Here's the rub...first we have to have someone on this roster better at playing LT and right now that person doesn't exist.

And don't even with Chad Wheeler, the limited snaps he got he looked far worse than Flowers, awful even.
i think there is a way to guess at the liklihood of success  
Bill2 : 2/11/2018 1:44 pm : link
1) Do we agree that having a god OG is very important?

2) Do we agree that we want the OG problem solved quickly and without risk of too much failure?

3) Do we agree that essential to OG playing is getting underneath defensive players with leverage?

4) Do we agree that takes not bending at the waist, using your feet well and hand technique?

5) Do we think a player who has developed some worse technique on those three things since college is low risk to suddenly turn it around?

6) Do we have evidence the player takes to coaching or not?

7) Do we agree that even if you hate your coaches, the basic techniques of OL blocking are on youtube and therefore can be practiced by dedicated athletes?

8) Do we think the player shows he can repeat technique consistently through games and seasons?

9) While we know the player is physically tough do we have evidence he is mentally tough?

10) On a line of terrible players has he occasionally played not as bad as others?

11) Is that the same thing as good enough to solve the problem we have at any and all of the 5 positions?


I dont know about you guys, but while it may be time to experiment with Flowers, I think anything short of finding major competition for him at every position is malpractice
RE: It's a total mystery...  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/11/2018 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13829129 Torrag said:
Quote:
...and a mental exercise to project how Flowers would perform at RT or OG as he's never done it. So have at it but tere's only one way to find out.

Here's the rub...first we have to have someone on this roster better at playing LT and right now that person doesn't exist.

And don't even with Chad Wheeler, the limited snaps he got he looked far worse than Flowers, awful even.


+1

I'm surprised how many are ready to pencil Wheeler in at LT.
Agree with Torrag on Wheeler  
Bill2 : 2/11/2018 2:16 pm : link
Its literally hard to accept what a mess we have on OL
Wheeler went undrafted for very good reasons...  
Milton : 2/11/2018 3:54 pm : link
But none of them had to do with his performances on game day. The film on him coming out of college was quite positive and he may even have been a first or second round pick had that been all that the scouts knew of him.

And after one year in the NFL, the film on him continues to be promising. There is still the injury concern given his lengthy history of it, but I think he answered the questions on his other red flags. If he can stay healthy, I think he will be a plus player at left tackle.

From Drew Boylhart...
Quote:
Chad is an efficiently, smart, athletic pure left tackle who reminds me a lot of Browns Joe Thomas...What I like about Chad’s play is that he doesn’t lose his techniques, believes in them and never seems to panic when an opponent looks as if they are going to be beat him and sack his quarterback. Chad’s ability to recover and adjust and continue to trust his techniques along with his natural athletic talents shows maturity beyond most left tackles coming out in a draft.

Wheeler is no loser! - ( New Window )
Don't get me wrong  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/11/2018 4:01 pm : link
I'm not giving up on Wheeler; I just think it's a huge risk to count on him as your starting LT at this point.
RE: Don't get me wrong  
Milton : 2/11/2018 8:53 pm : link
In comment 13829227 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
I'm not giving up on Wheeler; I just think it's a huge risk to count on him as your starting LT at this point.
I feel that way, too, which is why I think Pugh can be such an important re-sign if the guaranteed money isn't an albatross. Pugh can start at right tackle and back up Wheeler at left tackle.

But I think Flowers has gotta go regardless of his youth and talent. He is part of the previous culture that Gettleman is trying to change. At least that's my expectation, situations like this are fluid.
2 things  
mrvax : 2/11/2018 9:07 pm : link
1. Wheeler looked pretty promising to me and I was watching him. I would not pencil him in at LT yet but would really work on him in camp.

2. Can anyone tell me if Flowers improved from tear 2 to year 3? He looked the same to me, as a backup quality tackle. Did he get better? PFF?
Flowers' improvement was at best marginal  
Jimmy Googs : 2/11/2018 9:17 pm : link
Don't get sucked up into his "sackless" streak because that far more Eli throwing 3 yard passes to keep from getting hit.

Flowers doesn't hold up on third down. And he isn't all that good as a run blocker either. Simple stunts fake our O-line out like they were on the high school JV team.

he stinks...
Agree with Torrag. WTF is so great about Wheeler?  
Victor in CT : 2/12/2018 8:40 am : link
He looked like what he is: a UDFA hope signing.
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