The tendency (understandably so) for tackles who struggle is to move them inside to guard where they are not in space. I think that worked well with Pugh (when he was healthy) but it isnt always a solution.
David Diehl as I recall was a much better tackle than guard despite not having what you would consider good physical skills for the position.
So my question is, would Flower's skill set translate to a top tier guard? Or is there something about his skill set and physical stature that would actually be a hindrance. Height for example.
As of now with Norwell rumors in the mix...
Wheeler-Norwell—Jones/draft pick-Flowers-Pugh (maybe)
Yeah. He should be given first shot at RT.
As of now with Norwell rumors in the mix...
Wheeler-Norwell—Jones/draft pick-Flowers-Pugh (maybe)
As of now with Norwell rumors in the mix...
Wheeler-Norwell—Jones/draft pick-Flowers-Pugh (maybe)
Wheeler and Jones are players you settle on, not players you build on.
From. bust to very good player
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RT guard should be his. Question is who plays RT?
As of now with Norwell rumors in the mix...
Wheeler-Norwell—Jones/draft pick-Flowers-Pugh (maybe)
Wheeler and Jones are players you settle on, not players you build on.
Agreed. I think people got "excited" about Wheeler because he wasnt awful all the time. I get that because our expectations are so low but I think he is swing material.
AS a OG, that would be a BIG problem. Flowers has enough problems trying to properly use his hands to redirect small DE and LB- imagine how a good DT would just brush him aside. The inconsistent feet would lead to a lot of LB blowing right by him as he struggles to set.
No, he needs to work at an end (RT would be preferred) where he has a little space to work with and can take his man outside if he can't get his hands on him. At OG, he has to control and move the man- that means good technical hand skills that he just has not shown to date.
If we thought the 2017 Giants OL were bad, it could be worse using Flowers inside.
Just put Flowers at RT and leave him be. Think Kareem McKenzie- not exciting and not overpowering, but get the job done.
He's going to open camp at LT - this is literally career making months for him.
This
Fans were too hard on him and the old regime gave him too many passes.
An honest Eval. and solid coaching he might turn out to be successful. He has a good skill set but does too many things wrong that have never been corrected. (dropping his head, bad hand placement, etc).
If you can bring Norwell here, another medium priced FA, and draft an OL in the 2nd we can have a respectable line quickly.
He's not a great LT, and maybe he's not universally thought of as good even.
But he's not an unequivocally bad player who needs immediate replacement.
He's cost controlled for 2 more years and when surrounded by a better cast, especially when the team can run the ball, he's sufficient.
Flowers suffers from being picked top 10.
If he was a 2nd round pick, I can't imagine the same hairdo being made over his play.
AS a OG, that would be a BIG problem. Flowers has enough problems trying to properly use his hands to redirect small DE and LB- imagine how a good DT would just brush him aside. The inconsistent feet would lead to a lot of LB blowing right by him as he struggles to set.
No, he needs to work at an end (RT would be preferred) where he has a little space to work with and can take his man outside if he can't get his hands on him. At OG, he has to control and move the man- that means good technical hand skills that he just has not shown to date.
If we thought the 2017 Giants OL were bad, it could be worse using Flowers inside.
Just put Flowers at RT and leave him be. Think Kareem McKenzie- not exciting and not overpowering, but get the job done.
This.
He projects very poorly to guard. When he was drafted, he was going to play RT, but then Will Beatty got injured and they were forced to play him at LT. He should get a shot at RT.
He doesn't have the feet to deal with the speed DEs that are featured against the QB's blind side, but he does project very well on the right side (which is normally the running side for most teams)
Fluker (who was improving a lot before he got hurt) & Flowers can be a "poor man's" Snee-McKinzie combo.
If we move Flowers to the right side, 40% of the problem is fixed. Left Tackle can be fixed by signing Nate Solder, Left Guard by signing Andrew Norwell or drafting Quenton Nelson and Center by drafting either Frank Ragnow or Bradley Bozeman
I think we're only four players away from making a serious championship run THIS year ....
Left Tackle, Left Guard, Center and either a top tier running back (Barkely ?) or an excellent complimentary reciever opposite OBJ.
He lost weight which helped with his mobility.
Problem was his stamina was not nearly what it needed to be. He was like a heavyweight boxer in the eighth round of a fight by the time he got into the third quarter. Form went out the window and he'd just lean in and lay on his opponent. Not a good idea against a speed rush.
He will be what he wills himself to be. He has the ability to be a good RT if he can improve his footwork and stamina. It's up to him and how much work he's willing to put in.
He should be able to handle the G position.
AS a OG, that would be a BIG problem. Flowers has enough problems trying to properly use his hands to redirect small DE and LB- imagine how a good DT would just brush him aside. The inconsistent feet would lead to a lot of LB blowing right by him as he struggles to set.
No, he needs to work at an end (RT would be preferred) where he has a little space to work with and can take his man outside if he can't get his hands on him. At OG, he has to control and move the man- that means good technical hand skills that he just has not shown to date.
If we thought the 2017 Giants OL were bad, it could be worse using Flowers inside.
Just put Flowers at RT and leave him be. Think Kareem McKenzie- not exciting and not overpowering, but get the job done.
If Flowers suddenly made the leap to being Kareem McKenzie that would be incredible.
I think we're only four players away from making a serious championship run THIS year ....
Left Tackle, Left Guard, Center and either a top tier running back (Barkely ?) or an excellent complimentary reciever opposite OBJ.
It can be improved with specific routines, so that's helpful.
In addition - macball handed the initiative to the opposing DL far too often. I felt that made things harder for him as a developing player.
Folks at times assume a skills hierarchy from C up to OT and its simply not that simple.
Each.player.is.different.
Flowers as a guard? No real reason to think he is any better at G than at OT so far.
Yep. This guy needs competition for once in his career.
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Flowers (speaking generally) strengths are, literally his size and strength. However, his weakness is that he has bad hand use and inconsistent feet.
AS a OG, that would be a BIG problem. Flowers has enough problems trying to properly use his hands to redirect small DE and LB- imagine how a good DT would just brush him aside. The inconsistent feet would lead to a lot of LB blowing right by him as he struggles to set.
No, he needs to work at an end (RT would be preferred) where he has a little space to work with and can take his man outside if he can't get his hands on him. At OG, he has to control and move the man- that means good technical hand skills that he just has not shown to date.
If we thought the 2017 Giants OL were bad, it could be worse using Flowers inside.
Just put Flowers at RT and leave him be. Think Kareem McKenzie- not exciting and not overpowering, but get the job done.
If Flowers suddenly made the leap to being Kareem McKenzie that would be incredible.
For real. Kareem McKenzie was one the best free agent signings the Giants ever had. Probably the best right tackle in Giants history
In no alternative universe is $14M considered cost-controlled.
Flowers Contract - ( New Window )
He doesn't have the feet to deal with the speed DEs that are featured against the QB's blind side, but he does project very well on the right side (which is normally the running side for most teams)
Fluker (who was improving a lot before he got hurt) & Flowers can be a "poor man's" Snee-McKinzie combo.
If we move Flowers to the right side, 40% of the problem is fixed. Left Tackle can be fixed by signing Nate Solder, Left Guard by signing Andrew Norwell or drafting Quenton Nelson and Center by drafting either Frank Ragnow or Bradley Bozeman
Stop wishing for hambones to magically transform into good players. He is what he is at this point, a bum.
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He doesn't have the feet to deal with the speed DEs that are featured against the QB's blind side, but he does project very well on the right side (which is normally the running side for most teams)
Fluker (who was improving a lot before he got hurt) & Flowers can be a "poor man's" Snee-McKinzie combo.
If we move Flowers to the right side, 40% of the problem is fixed. Left Tackle can be fixed by signing Nate Solder, Left Guard by signing Andrew Norwell or drafting Quenton Nelson and Center by drafting either Frank Ragnow or Bradley Bozeman
Fluker sucks. If he wasn't known as a first round pick, we wouldn't have picked him up and he'd probably be out of football. He gets push on occasion in the run game if his man is right in front of him and he's a pass blocking liability. In other words, no different than when the Chargers, who tried him at tackle and guard, cut him.
Stop wishing for hambones to magically transform into good players. He is what he is at this point, a bum.
In 2019, there will not be one starter from the 2017 OL still playing for the Giants...hopefully....
Here's the rub...first we have to have someone on this roster better at playing LT and right now that person doesn't exist.
And don't even with Chad Wheeler, the limited snaps he got he looked far worse than Flowers, awful even.
2) Do we agree that we want the OG problem solved quickly and without risk of too much failure?
3) Do we agree that essential to OG playing is getting underneath defensive players with leverage?
4) Do we agree that takes not bending at the waist, using your feet well and hand technique?
5) Do we think a player who has developed some worse technique on those three things since college is low risk to suddenly turn it around?
6) Do we have evidence the player takes to coaching or not?
7) Do we agree that even if you hate your coaches, the basic techniques of OL blocking are on youtube and therefore can be practiced by dedicated athletes?
8) Do we think the player shows he can repeat technique consistently through games and seasons?
9) While we know the player is physically tough do we have evidence he is mentally tough?
10) On a line of terrible players has he occasionally played not as bad as others?
11) Is that the same thing as good enough to solve the problem we have at any and all of the 5 positions?
I dont know about you guys, but while it may be time to experiment with Flowers, I think anything short of finding major competition for him at every position is malpractice
Here's the rub...first we have to have someone on this roster better at playing LT and right now that person doesn't exist.
And don't even with Chad Wheeler, the limited snaps he got he looked far worse than Flowers, awful even.
+1
I'm surprised how many are ready to pencil Wheeler in at LT.
And after one year in the NFL, the film on him continues to be promising. There is still the injury concern given his lengthy history of it, but I think he answered the questions on his other red flags. If he can stay healthy, I think he will be a plus player at left tackle.
From Drew Boylhart...
Wheeler is no loser! - ( New Window )
But I think Flowers has gotta go regardless of his youth and talent. He is part of the previous culture that Gettleman is trying to change. At least that's my expectation, situations like this are fluid.
2. Can anyone tell me if Flowers improved from tear 2 to year 3? He looked the same to me, as a backup quality tackle. Did he get better? PFF?
Flowers doesn't hold up on third down. And he isn't all that good as a run blocker either. Simple stunts fake our O-line out like they were on the high school JV team.
he stinks...