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If we do not decide to go QB at #2 ?

TMS : 2/10/2018 1:18 pm
Do we take Barkely or trade back? Second pick in the draft is OJ Simpson/ Jim Brown territory and they were worth it. Is he ?
I'd take Chubb or trade down  
adamg : 2/10/2018 1:26 pm : link
I can't justify paying 2nd pick money to a RB.
The only people who think Barkley  
djstat : 2/10/2018 1:32 pm : link
Goes #2 are moronic fans. Barkley is not worth 2
Biggest complaint over the past several years  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 1:34 pm : link
Equal to or slightly behind the OL...Lack of a running game.

And, we canít fix it with what we have. And, after the second round, thereís no difference with what we have.
Well  
jtgiants : 2/10/2018 1:35 pm : link
Barkley could be the pick. I think a trade back more likely but the people who don't think Barkley goes top 5 are flat out mistaken imo
Dogma is a type of blindness  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 1:36 pm : link
.
I like Barkley a lot  
Big Rick in FL : 2/10/2018 1:37 pm : link
He's not in Jim Brown or OJ Simpson territory. Please let's stop comparing him to HOFers before he even runs at the combine.

Also let's get it out of our head that the Giants aren't drafting q QB. It makes no sense to draft a RB at 2. When you can get guys like Michel, Chubb, Freeman, Rodney Anderson etc etc somewhere in rounds 2-5. The value just isn't there.
Thatís a contradiction  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 1:42 pm : link
Unless youíre saying that you *wouldnít* ever draft Jim Brown or OJ Simpson at #2.

Which is okay I guess. Some people are wed to their dogma. IMO, itís daft, but different strokes.
RE: Well  
Big Rick in FL : 2/10/2018 1:45 pm : link
In comment 13828450 jtgiants said:
Quote:
Barkley could be the pick. I think a trade back more likely but the people who don't think Barkley goes top 5 are flat out mistaken imo


Not really mistaken. It makes sense. There's no point in spending a top 5 pick for a position with a short career. Especially when you factor in the money difference between a RB in the top 5 and a RB in the 2nd or 3rd round.

A guy like Royce Freeman or Rodney Anderson in the 3rd will cost you about a million per year. Barkley in the top 5 will cost you about 7 million a year. There productivity isn't that much different to justify that kind of money.
RE: RE: Well  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13828455 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
In comment 13828450 jtgiants said:


Quote:


Barkley could be the pick. I think a trade back more likely but the people who don't think Barkley goes top 5 are flat out mistaken imo



Not really mistaken. It makes sense. There's no point in spending a top 5 pick for a position with a short career. Especially when you factor in the money difference between a RB in the top 5 and a RB in the 2nd or 3rd round.

A guy like Royce Freeman or Rodney Anderson in the 3rd will cost you about a million per year. Barkley in the top 5 will cost you about 7 million a year. There productivity isn't that much different to justify that kind of money.
well. At least you took Darnold in your mock as opposed to borland Rosen, so youíre consistent about longevity. But I donít think you can really say for sure about anyone.
I Don't Like Rosen's Injury History  
Trainmaster : 2/10/2018 1:49 pm : link
Based on what I know now, I'd hate picking Rosen at #2. I hope he is gone and the Giants have the choice between Barkley and Darnold.

If the Giants are convinced that Eli has at least 2 more good years in him AND that Barkley is in the Elliott, Gurley talent level, I have no issue with Barkley at #2. Look at the difference Beckham makes in the Giants offense. A fast, strong, pass catching RB can be a game changer as well. The entire defense won't be focused on Barkley. Beckham, Engram and Barkley are a nice set of "triplets".

I'd make sure the Giants grabbed a stud offensive lineman late in the first (I'd be OK with a trade up) or the best lineman available in the second round (I'm OK leaning toward need in round 2).
Like most others  
allstarjim : 2/10/2018 1:57 pm : link
I think Barkley is the best player in the draft. And, I think there is a fairly reasonable chance that Barkley is unavailable at our pick at #2. In your scenario, if he was available, I'd want Barkley. I've made no secret at that.

But I do love the discussion, what would happen if we traded back? Who would you like then? And to answer that, we could have a discussion on the draft spot we'd be trading back to.

A separate discussion would be, if the Giants decided they didn't like ANY of the QBs in the draft at #2, and Barkley was taken at #1 overall (unlikely, I know, and I'd of course be shouting to take Darnold), who would you want? In this case, I would definitely want them to trade back. But if you take that off the table, my pick would be Bradley Chubb, who I think is going to be a defensive force for many years.
Bill L  
Big Rick in FL : 2/10/2018 1:58 pm : link
No what I'm saying is people need to stop comparing college players to HOFers. It's a dumb thing to do.

Barkley is great, but people are definitely overhyping him when comparing him to guys like that.

I know stats aren't everything, but he's not even in the top 160 in NCAA rushing yards. I need more production before I start comparing him to guys like Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Walter Payton etc etc
This seems to be a strong QB class  
UberAlias : 2/10/2018 1:59 pm : link
4 legitimate 1st round prospects, with 2 as strong prospects as any in recent drafts aside from Luck. I just think it would be big mistake passing on that kind of opportunity. I would be very surprised if 2 of these guys didnít pan out as franchise NFL QBs.
I'd personally take Rosen  
Big Rick in FL : 2/10/2018 2:00 pm : link
I'm not as worried about his injuries as everybody else. I don't think he's had to deal with anything different then just about every college football player.

I just think the Giants will choose Darnold based on the fact that he's a similar person to Eli.
RE: This seems to be a strong QB class  
Big Rick in FL : 2/10/2018 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13828468 UberAlias said:
Quote:
4 legitimate 1st round prospects, with 2 as strong prospects as any in recent drafts aside from Luck. I just think it would be big mistake passing on that kind of opportunity. I would be very surprised if 2 of these guys didnít pan out as franchise NFL QBs.


Don't worry they aren't going to pass on a QB. There's a reason they brought in a QB guru like Shurmur. It isn't to work with a 15 year NFL vet whose 37 years old.
RE: The only people who think Barkley  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/10/2018 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13828448 djstat said:
Quote:
Goes #2 are moronic fans. Barkley is not worth 2

Said without a hint of irony.
That doesnít make sense to me  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 2:05 pm : link
Because youíd say that Jim Brown wasnít Jim Brown before his draft because he was only a college guy. Scouts are paid to project.

Also isnít consistent, imo, to not worry about Rosenís short career risk and say youíd never pick a RB because of short-career risk. For one, itís specualtion either way. For the second, when you distill to individuals, youíre accepting evidence-based risk assessment (I.e., CTE potential) versus rejecting a person with a lack of an injury history, based on injury likelihood.
Trainmaster  
Big Rick in FL : 2/10/2018 2:05 pm : link
Even if you think he's a Gurley/Zeke/Fournette type you have to look at where guys like Le'Veon, Kareem Hunt, Alvin Kamara were taken. Those guys are perfect examples of why you don't take RBs this high. It's much easier to find a good to great RB later on then it is to find a good to great player at basically any other position.

The Giants need to build this team the way they built the 2 SB teams. Top 4 QB with a good OL. When you have that you can find a RB basically anywhere.
Iíd take Chubb.  
bradshaw44 : 2/10/2018 2:06 pm : link
Strengthen the D line. And snag Michele or one of the other backs in the top of the second.
Big rick  
jtgiants : 2/10/2018 2:06 pm : link
I want Darnold if we go qb. I'd never take Rosen due to concussions. I've had scouts tell me Barkley is a better prospect then Elliot and Tourette? Do you think those teams regret those picks? Nonesense. You don't have to like it but Barkley is going top 5
Itís forcing a QB with this specific group  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 2:07 pm : link
Plus the late round qb argument is as valid as late round rb argument. Examples either way. If you purely go for value, itís hard not to want Barkley. Itís when you factor other things, besides value, although you say you want a great player, that we go for someone else.
As a follow-up  
allstarjim : 2/10/2018 2:08 pm : link
If I was Cleveland, and I wanted to keep both #1 and #4 (which is in and of itself an interesting question, I could see the Browns trading down from one of those picks), I would take Barkley #1, without question.

And the reasoning behind that is, at #4, I am almost guaranteed to get, at minimum, the 2nd highest rated QB on my board. Unless there is a big drop-off in my grade at QB, and acknowledging that every QB in this draft has inherent risk, I might as well get my QB at #4. I do not think the Colts will draft a QB. Sure, they could trade down to a QB-needy team, but we can't assume that they will.

And that means, only if they do trade down, and both the Giants and the team trading up to #3 takes both QBs at the top of my board, do I then have to take my third-best QB. And with 4 highly rated QBs at the top, I can live with taking that chance.

Perhaps I want Rosen, and the Giants take Darnold at #2. Then the Colts trade out to Denver...and I will go on record right now, I think that Denver will be infatuated with Josh Allen. Denver takes Allen at #3, and then I get Rosen at #4, who I possibly would've taken at #1 overall anyway.

Plausible. But to me, it is rare to have the opportunity to draft a franchise-changing RB like Barkley, a guy who is clearly a generational talent. That is the prize at #1, and then I get my guy at #4, sign whoever the Vikings don't want out of Bridgewater, Bradford, or Keenum to serve as the bridge, and then begin developing my guy. Not Cousins, though (too much money, and my draft pick will be my future at the position).



It Makes No Sense to Draft a QB at #2  
Jim in NH : 2/10/2018 2:16 pm : link
"It makes no sense to draft a RB at 2. When you can get guys like Michel, Chubb, Freeman, Rodney Anderson etc etc somewhere in rounds 2-5"
Try to remember what Tiki Barber did for this team.  
Ira : 2/10/2018 2:18 pm : link
He was our best offensive player - arguably our best receiver. Barkley is stronger and faster than him. If we don't want to take a qb and Barkley is there, I'd like to see us take him.

By the way, there's no chance that Michel will last until the second round.
It Makes No Sense to Draft a QB at #2  
Jim in NH : 2/10/2018 2:21 pm : link
"It makes no sense to draft a RB at 2. When you can get guys like Michel, Chubb, Freeman, Rodney Anderson etc etc somewhere in rounds 2-5"

Well then, it makes no sense to draft a QB at 2 when you can get guys like Bart Starr, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler, Joe Montana, Joe Theismann, Brett Favre, Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Russell Wilson somewhere in rounds 2-6.
I sometimes wonder how many people on this board  
Mike from Ohio : 2/10/2018 2:25 pm : link
actually watch football outside of Giants games. The draft is about acquiring talent, not picking positions. There are reasons Zeke Elliott and Leonard Fournette go at the top of the first round and Wayne Gallman goes in the 4th. You can't find similar production in later rounds just because you repeat it often enough.

If the Giants believe Barkley is the best player available when they are on the clock, they should pick him.
No I'm basing it off the history of football  
Big Rick in FL : 2/10/2018 2:25 pm : link
Quarterbacks last a lot longer then RBs. It's a fact.

Simply look at Brady, Brees, Peyton, Eli, Rivers, Ben. Then go look at the RBs from those same draft classes.

Example the 2004 draft class. Eli, Rivers & Ben were the top 3 QBs. They are going into 2018 as starting QBs.

So here are the top 6 players at QB & RB from 2004

Eli - Active in 2018
Rivers - Active in 2018
Ben - Active in 2018
Losman - Retired after 2011
Schaub - Active in 2018
McCown - Active in 2016

Jackson - Retired in 2015
Chris Perry - Retired in 2008
Kevin Jones - Retired in 2009
Tatum Bell - Retired in 2008
Julius Jones - Retired in 2010
Cedric Cobbs - Retired in 2006

This shows exactly why you can't draft a RB top 5. Basically at the absolute max you're getting 7-8 seasons of production from a RB. Mostly 4-5 years. Meanwhile the QBs you are getting 12-15 seasons from them.
Nothing wrong with the argument  
allstarjim : 2/10/2018 2:29 pm : link
that using the #2 overall pick on a RB is a bad allocation of draft resources because of the historical positional draft value of RBs who have succeeded at the highest level and were taken later in the draft.

It's an argument and position I myself, in previous years, have made.

To me, Barkley is the kind of player that defines the "exception to the rule."

Some may say that people said that about Trent Richardson and other examples. I was not one of those people. I projected Richardson would be a bust, as he never wowed me with his tape and he ran behind probably the most dominating OL in college football at the time.

I do have Barkley higher than Elliott or Fournette, or even Gurley. To me, this is the chance to grab Marshall Faulk or LaDainian Tomlinson, or Barry Sanders for your team. Guys that are on the high end of the elite scale. Some will say that it is foolish to project that but the skills he displays are just too rare to ignore. Others will talk about the production. He is in the top 100 of all-time CFB scrimmage yards. And here's the thing, he did it in about 2.75 seasons (11 games as a freshman and did not have the kind of touches he's had the last 2 seasons). Most of the people above him on the list accomplished what they did in 4 years. If you give Barkley the same number of CFB games as the guys above him on the list, he's probably going to finish in the top 15 of that list. And then you consider that the entire offense revolved around him, and that he was far and away the focal point of every defensive coordinator's game plan. Nobody was worried about being beat through the QB, and he did it behind an OL that was average at best, very much unlike Trent Richardson's OL at Alabama.

I'll make a prediction right now that whoever drafts Barkley, if he stays on the field in 2018, will have a minimum of a 4-win improvement on their record.
Just for the sake of argument  
Jim in NH : 2/10/2018 2:42 pm : link
Here are 13 Super Bowl winning QBs drafted after Round One:

Bart Starr Round 17 Player 200
Roger Staubach Round 10 Player 129
Ken Stabler Round 2 Player 52
Joe Montana Round 3 Player 82
Joe Theismann Round 4 Player 99
Jeff Hostetler Round 3 Player 59
Mark Rypien Round 6 Player 146
Brett Favre Round 2 Player 33
Kurt Warner undrafted
Tom Brady Round 6 Player 199
Brad Johnson Round 9 Player 227
Russell Wilson Round 3 Player 75
Nick Foles Round 3 Player 88
Drafting based on the average career length  
RobCarpenter : 2/10/2018 2:53 pm : link
makes no sense to me. Itís about the expected production during the career.

As for Rosen his concussions are a huge red flag for me.
RE: Big Rick in FL  
Trainmaster : 2/10/2018 2:56 pm : link
See Jim in NH's points and list.

The current NFL rules are designed for QB longevity IF they can play the game at a high level.

I don't you can generalize much about QBs and RBs. You can find first round busts and late rounds gems take at both positions.

My premise is Eli has a couple more years. Use the 2nd overall either to grab a likely game changing, multi-talented RB at #2, address the OL in round 2, and again at least once in rounds 3 through 5.

Barkley should make the whole offense better. If he is what is claimed, teams will not be able to double more than 1 Giants receiver.

RE: Drafting based on the average career length  
allstarjim : 2/10/2018 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13828519 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
makes no sense to me. Itís about the expected production during the career.

As for Rosen his concussions are a huge red flag for me.


I agree, and good post. Although you have to take positional value into account, and that includes evaluating career longevity at the top pick, it is only a PART of the overall evaluation of who you should take. A bigger factor is how you rate the actual players. If you believe you have a QB that can carry a franchise for 15 years and win a Super Bowl, you take him, regardless of whether or not you feel Barkley is the talent I believe he is. But if you just aren't sure that the guy that is available to you at QB is that kind of a QB, then it makes much less sense to take him wishing and hoping he is the real deal, when a talent as massive as Barkley is available.

If you pick the wrong QB, it's really bad. If you pick the wrong QB AND you missed out on the chance at another Marshall Faulk-caliber of talent, it's much, much worse.
RE: RE: Well  
superspynyg : 2/10/2018 3:06 pm : link
In comment 13828455 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
In comment 13828450 jtgiants said:


Quote:


Barkley could be the pick. I think a trade back more likely but the people who don't think Barkley goes top 5 are flat out mistaken imo



Not really mistaken. It makes sense. There's no point in spending a top 5 pick for a position with a short career. Especially when you factor in the money difference between a RB in the top 5 and a RB in the 2nd or 3rd round.

A guy like Royce Freeman or Rodney Anderson in the 3rd will cost you about a million per year. Barkley in the top 5 will cost you about 7 million a year. There productivity isn't that much different to justify that kind of money.


Then why does EVERY scout, ex GM, and paid draft guru put Barkley above everyone in terms of talent and they put most others in rd 3 or later?

Is Gurley or Zeke the same as Gallman or Perkins? No
RE: The only people who think Barkley  
dk in TX : 2/10/2018 3:14 pm : link
In comment 13828448 djstat said:
Quote:
Goes #2 are moronic fans. Barkley is not worth 2


You couldn't be more right.
Just To Be Fair  
Jim in NH : 2/10/2018 3:19 pm : link
31 QBs have won 51 Super Bowls. I listed 12 drafted after Round One (plus one undrafted). Here are the 18 others:

Joe Namath Round 1 Player 1
Len Dawson Round 1 Player 5
Earl Morrall Round 1 Player 2
Bob Griese (2) Round 1 Player 4
Terry Bradshaw (4) Round 1 Player 1
Jim Plunkett (2) Round 1 Player 1
Jim McMahon Round 1 Player 5
Phil Simms Round 1 Player 7
Doug Williams Round 1 Player 17
Troy Aikman (3) Round 1 Player 1
Steve Young Round 1 Player 1
John Elway (2) Round 1 Player 1
Trent Dilfer Round 1 Player 6
Eli Manning (2) Round 1 Player 1
Ben Roethlisberger Round 1 Player 11
Aaron Rodgers Round 1 Player 24
Joe Flacco Round 1 Player 18
Peyton Manning (2) Round 1 Player 1
Just as a reminder  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 3:28 pm : link
From Walter Football
Quote:
Merging the 2018 and 2017 prospects
Josh Rosen
Mitch Trubisky
Pat Mahomes II
Deshaun Watson
Sam Darnold
Josh Allen
Lamar Jackson
Baker Mayfield
DeShone Kizer
Davis Webb

And Rosen has a Borland shelf-life.

So comparing magnitude of Barkley over even the next best versus what you get a QB simply has to be part of the calculus.
RE: Just To Be Fair  
allstarjim : 2/10/2018 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13828530 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
31 QBs have won 51 Super Bowls. I listed 12 drafted after Round One (plus one undrafted). Here are the 18 others:

Joe Namath Round 1 Player 1
Len Dawson Round 1 Player 5
Earl Morrall Round 1 Player 2
Bob Griese (2) Round 1 Player 4
Terry Bradshaw (4) Round 1 Player 1
Jim Plunkett (2) Round 1 Player 1
Jim McMahon Round 1 Player 5
Phil Simms Round 1 Player 7
Doug Williams Round 1 Player 17
Troy Aikman (3) Round 1 Player 1
Steve Young Round 1 Player 1
John Elway (2) Round 1 Player 1
Trent Dilfer Round 1 Player 6
Eli Manning (2) Round 1 Player 1
Ben Roethlisberger Round 1 Player 11
Aaron Rodgers Round 1 Player 24
Joe Flacco Round 1 Player 18
Peyton Manning (2) Round 1 Player 1


Correction:

Ben Roethlisberger 2 Round 1 Player 11
Ugh  
jeff57 : 2/10/2018 3:31 pm : link
Two and half more months.
RE: RE: Just To Be Fair  
allstarjim : 2/10/2018 3:32 pm : link
In comment 13828539 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13828530 Jim in NH said:


Quote:


31 QBs have won 51 Super Bowls. I listed 12 drafted after Round One (plus one undrafted). Here are the 18 others:

Joe Namath Round 1 Player 1
Len Dawson Round 1 Player 5
Earl Morrall Round 1 Player 2
Bob Griese (2) Round 1 Player 4
Terry Bradshaw (4) Round 1 Player 1
Jim Plunkett (2) Round 1 Player 1
Jim McMahon Round 1 Player 5
Phil Simms Round 1 Player 7
Doug Williams Round 1 Player 17
Troy Aikman (3) Round 1 Player 1
Steve Young Round 1 Player 1
John Elway (2) Round 1 Player 1
Trent Dilfer Round 1 Player 6
Eli Manning (2) Round 1 Player 1
Ben Roethlisberger Round 1 Player 11
Aaron Rodgers Round 1 Player 24
Joe Flacco Round 1 Player 18
Peyton Manning (2) Round 1 Player 1



Correction:

Ben Roethlisberger 2 Round 1 Player 11


Correction to the correction (formatting):

Ben Roethlisberger (2) Round 1 Player 11 [/quote]
RE: Ugh  
allstarjim : 2/10/2018 3:33 pm : link
In comment 13828540 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Two and half more months.


There's still free agency to come, combine to talk about...come on, it's an exciting time! Hope springs eternal!
RE: Just as a reminder  
allstarjim : 2/10/2018 3:36 pm : link
In comment 13828537 Bill L said:
Quote:
From Walter Football


Quote:


Merging the 2018 and 2017 prospects
Josh Rosen
Mitch Trubisky
Pat Mahomes II
Deshaun Watson
Sam Darnold
Josh Allen
Lamar Jackson
Baker Mayfield
DeShone Kizer
Davis Webb



And Rosen has a Borland shelf-life.

So comparing magnitude of Barkley over even the next best versus what you get a QB simply has to be part of the calculus.


Bill there's nothing wrong with Walter Football in terms of checking out their lists and mock drafts, as well as rumors, but Mel Kiper has more credibility than they do in term of developing any kind of draft ranking. And Mel Kiper doesn't have much credibility. I wouldn't give that list any thought whatsoever. It's not worth the proverbial paper it's proverbial paper it's written on.
RE: RE: The only people who think Barkley  
Britt in VA : 2/10/2018 3:44 pm : link
In comment 13828529 dk in TX said:
Quote:
In comment 13828448 djstat said:


Quote:


Goes #2 are moronic fans. Barkley is not worth 2



You couldn't be more right.


A bunch of moronic fans out there....

Quote:
R.J. White, CBSSports.com
Pick: Saquon Barkley, RB, Penn State
Analysis: ďBarkley is right up there as one of the best prospects at his position -- and possibly No. 1 -- heading to the NFL in recent years. If the Giants aren't locked into a QB -- and they shouldn't be -- he's a fine option for No. 2.Ē

Daniel Jeremiah, NFL.com
Pick: Saquon Barkley - RB, Penn State
Analysis: ďI could easily see the Giants addressing the quarterback spot here, but instead they opt for the best player in the draft.Ē


Bucky Brooks, NFL.com
Pick: Saquon Barkley, RB, Penn State
Analysis: "The most dynamic running back in the draft would alleviate a lot of the pressure on Eli Manning to carry the squad."
Top drafted running backs probably have a greater  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2018 4:23 pm : link
success rate than top drafted QBs but I am not sure that still is enough reason to take more risk in finding your next QB.

Especially since we clearly need to find one and sitting at #2 has to lessen that risk...
RE: Top drafted running backs probably have a greater  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2018 4:25 pm : link
In comment 13828597 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
success rate than top drafted QBs but I am not sure that still is enough reason to take more risk in finding your next QB.

Especially since we clearly need to find one and sitting at #2 has to lessen that risk...


Sorry mistyped. Meant to write this

success rate than top drafted QBs but I am not sure that still isn't enough reason to try and find your next QB.

Especially since we clearly need to find one and sitting at #2 has to lessen that risk...
Drafting the wrong QB in round #1  
RobCarpenter : 2/10/2018 4:34 pm : link
Is what the Browns have done again and again.

Donít force the pick. If Barkley is BPA take him.
The biggest argument against Barkley  
AcesUp : 2/10/2018 4:40 pm : link
Are the cap dynamics around taking him at 2. I think he immediately becomes the 3rd highest paid RB in the league with #2 $$$. So he almost has to be a Tier 1 back to not be a disappointment. Even if he is at that Zeke/Gurley level, that's what you are paying for, you essentially just hit a single with that pick. If he's good but not great, say a Melvin Gordon type, he's kind of a bust because of the cap and draft resources invested in that player. If he's a Trent Richardson (which I would put at 1%), it's a colossal bust.

If you're going to go nuts at RB, why not just pay Le'Veon Bell a little more in free agency and keep or trade your 2nd pick for more resources?
RE: The biggest argument against Barkley  
Sy'56 : 2/10/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13828618 AcesUp said:
Quote:
Are the cap dynamics around taking him at 2. I think he immediately becomes the 3rd highest paid RB in the league with #2 $$$. So he almost has to be a Tier 1 back to not be a disappointment. Even if he is at that Zeke/Gurley level, that's what you are paying for, you essentially just hit a single with that pick. If he's good but not great, say a Melvin Gordon type, he's kind of a bust because of the cap and draft resources invested in that player. If he's a Trent Richardson (which I would put at 1%), it's a colossal bust.

If you're going to go nuts at RB, why not just pay Le'Veon Bell a little more in free agency and keep or trade your 2nd pick for more resources?


Bell would be a lot more than a little more.

Not to mention the amount of hits he has taken in recent years.
RE: Try to remember what Tiki Barber did for this team.  
Section331 : 2/10/2018 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13828488 Ira said:
Quote:
He was our best offensive player - arguably our best receiver. Barkley is stronger and faster than him. If we don't want to take a qb and Barkley is there, I'd like to see us take him.

By the way, there's no chance that Michel will last until the second round.


And as good as Tiki was, we didnít win a SB until he left. That is why you take a QB at #2 or trade the pick.
RE: The biggest argument against Barkley  
Eman11 : 2/10/2018 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13828618 AcesUp said:
Quote:
Are the cap dynamics around taking him at 2. I think he immediately becomes the 3rd highest paid RB in the league with #2 $$$. So he almost has to be a Tier 1 back to not be a disappointment. Even if he is at that Zeke/Gurley level, that's what you are paying for, you essentially just hit a single with that pick. If he's good but not great, say a Melvin Gordon type, he's kind of a bust because of the cap and draft resources invested in that player. If he's a Trent Richardson (which I would put at 1%), it's a colossal bust.

If you're going to go nuts at RB, why not just pay Le'Veon Bell a little more in free agency and keep or trade your 2nd pick for more resources?


A little more for Bell? He made $12 mil this past year and turned down a longer term deal. He's looking for 13-14 mil per and if Pittsburgh can't sign him, they most likely franchise him at around 14 mil.

I'd say paying Bell would cost a heck of a lot more than just a "little more" than what Barkley would get.
It was a throwaway hypothetical  
AcesUp : 2/10/2018 5:07 pm : link
Stunted by the fact that Bell is looking to reset the bar at RB on the open market. I'll walk that one back.

The main point still stands, there's a cap variable associated with that pick that some are overlooking. He has to be an All Pro talent outside the gate to justify his pick there.
So here's the question then.  
FStubbs : 2/10/2018 5:17 pm : link
Let's assume you knew without a shadow of a doubt that Barkley was a Hall of Fame RB.

Let's also assume then that you knew without a shadow of a doubt that Darnold was basically Matt Ryan II.

Who do you pick?
If Barkley is a HoF back  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 5:51 pm : link
And we have Eli, OBJ, Engram, and even a modest OL upgrade, I take Barkley and then worry about how we can pick a future QB from the 32nd spot next year.
RE: RE: Just as a reminder  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 5:52 pm : link
In comment 13828547 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13828537 Bill L said:


Quote:


From Walter Football


Quote:


Merging the 2018 and 2017 prospects
Josh Rosen
Mitch Trubisky
Pat Mahomes II
Deshaun Watson
Sam Darnold
Josh Allen
Lamar Jackson
Baker Mayfield
DeShone Kizer
Davis Webb



And Rosen has a Borland shelf-life.

So comparing magnitude of Barkley over even the next best versus what you get a QB simply has to be part of the calculus.



Bill there's nothing wrong with Walter Football in terms of checking out their lists and mock drafts, as well as rumors, but Mel Kiper has more credibility than they do in term of developing any kind of draft ranking. And Mel Kiper doesn't have much credibility. I wouldn't give that list any thought whatsoever. It's not worth the proverbial paper it's proverbial paper it's written on.
you could be write, but I think the point remains that no matter who is evaluating this group of QB, youíll find that itís a very deep class without much height..
Final thought  
TMS : 2/10/2018 6:05 pm : link
Some here have stated that Barkley has the kind of talent that he can score anytime from anywhere on the field when he gets his hands on the ball, by pass or otherwise. Thats the kind of ability the great backs had. That kind of weapon is a game changer for sure. Put him out there with OBJ and our other receivers and look out if we can fix this OL.
My observation on Barkley  
mrvax : 2/10/2018 6:54 pm : link
is that he seems to be such a natural, smooth pass catcher. If they don't go QB, he's gotta be considered.
Chubb  
bc4life : 2/10/2018 6:57 pm : link
With two DTs Vernon and JPP - DLine could become a strength. Secondary is in decent shape, especially if Apple snaps out of it
RE: Like most others  
paesan98 : 2/10/2018 7:16 pm : link
In comment 13828466 allstarjim said:
Quote:
I think Barkley is the best player in the draft. And, I think there is a fairly reasonable chance that Barkley is unavailable at our pick at #2. In your scenario, if he was available, I'd want Barkley. I've made no secret at that.

But I do love the discussion, what would happen if we traded back? Who would you like then? And to answer that, we could have a discussion on the draft spot we'd be trading back to.

A separate discussion would be, if the Giants decided they didn't like ANY of the QBs in the draft at #2, and Barkley was taken at #1 overall (unlikely, I know, and I'd of course be shouting to take Darnold), who would you want? In this case, I would definitely want them to trade back. But if you take that off the table, my pick would be Bradley Chubb, who I think is going to be a defensive force for many years.


I think you meant to say "Like some others" not most, because most others do NOT think he is the best player in the draft
RE: As a follow-up  
paesan98 : 2/10/2018 7:26 pm : link
In comment 13828482 allstarjim said:
Quote:
If I was Cleveland, and I wanted to keep both #1 and #4 (which is in and of itself an interesting question, I could see the Browns trading down from one of those picks), I would take Barkley #1, without question.

And the reasoning behind that is, at #4, I am almost guaranteed to get, at minimum, the 2nd highest rated QB on my board. Unless there is a big drop-off in my grade at QB, and acknowledging that every QB in this draft has inherent risk, I might as well get my QB at #4. I do not think the Colts will draft a QB. Sure, they could trade down to a QB-needy team, but we can't assume that they will.

And that means, only if they do trade down, and both the Giants and the team trading up to #3 takes both QBs at the top of my board, do I then have to take my third-best QB. And with 4 highly rated QBs at the top, I can live with taking that chance.

Perhaps I want Rosen, and the Giants take Darnold at #2. Then the Colts trade out to Denver...and I will go on record right now, I think that Denver will be infatuated with Josh Allen. Denver takes Allen at #3, and then I get Rosen at #4, who I possibly would've taken at #1 overall anyway.

Plausible. But to me, it is rare to have the opportunity to draft a franchise-changing RB like Barkley, a guy who is clearly a generational talent. That is the prize at #1, and then I get my guy at #4, sign whoever the Vikings don't want out of Bridgewater, Bradford, or Keenum to serve as the bridge, and then begin developing my guy. Not Cousins, though (too much money, and my draft pick will be my future at the position).




And that's precisely why you don't work in the front office of an NFL team. You NEVER settle for the 2nd or 3rd best QB on your list if your #1 rated guy is there. You take the one at the top of your list if they are there when you pick.
RE: Just for the sake of argument  
paesan98 : 2/10/2018 7:31 pm : link
In comment 13828509 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
Here are 13 Super Bowl winning QBs drafted after Round One:

Bart Starr Round 17 Player 200
Roger Staubach Round 10 Player 129
Ken Stabler Round 2 Player 52
Joe Montana Round 3 Player 82
Joe Theismann Round 4 Player 99
Jeff Hostetler Round 3 Player 59
Mark Rypien Round 6 Player 146
Brett Favre Round 2 Player 33
Kurt Warner undrafted
Tom Brady Round 6 Player 199
Brad Johnson Round 9 Player 227
Russell Wilson Round 3 Player 75
Nick Foles Round 3 Player 88


That's rather selective to look at only 13 QBs. Where were the other SB winning QBs taken? You know, guys like Peyton and Eli Manning, John Elway, Phil Simms, etc... Or perhaps you left them out because their inclusion would shoot your argument to shit.
Drafting a RB at #2 is a bit ridiculous........  
Simms11 : 2/10/2018 7:31 pm : link
Their careers are short and thereís normally an abundance of other Running Backs that are quite capable of giving a team a sensational running game. Get an Oline and then weíll start to see a decent running game. Look for a RB, but not until round 3 IMO.
RE: The only people who think Barkley  
Joey in VA : 2/10/2018 7:33 pm : link
In comment 13828448 djstat said:
Quote:
Goes #2 are moronic fans. Barkley is not worth 2
Yeah Sy is a moron, so am I. Barkley may go 1st if the Browns are smart and like more than 2 of the QBs up there.
RE: Just To Be Fair  
paesan98 : 2/10/2018 7:35 pm : link
In comment 13828530 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
31 QBs have won 51 Super Bowls. I listed 12 drafted after Round One (plus one undrafted). Here are the 18 others:

Joe Namath Round 1 Player 1
Len Dawson Round 1 Player 5
Earl Morrall Round 1 Player 2
Bob Griese (2) Round 1 Player 4
Terry Bradshaw (4) Round 1 Player 1
Jim Plunkett (2) Round 1 Player 1
Jim McMahon Round 1 Player 5
Phil Simms Round 1 Player 7
Doug Williams Round 1 Player 17
Troy Aikman (3) Round 1 Player 1
Steve Young Round 1 Player 1
John Elway (2) Round 1 Player 1
Trent Dilfer Round 1 Player 6
Eli Manning (2) Round 1 Player 1
Ben Roethlisberger Round 1 Player 11
Aaron Rodgers Round 1 Player 24
Joe Flacco Round 1 Player 18
Peyton Manning (2) Round 1 Player 1


I responded to your first post before I saw this, but I was correct. Only 4 of these 18 were selected below the 7th pick, but all were first round selections.
RE: Drafting a RB at #2 is a bit ridiculous........  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 8:06 pm : link
In comment 13828787 Simms11 said:
Quote:
Their careers are short and thereís normally an abundance of other Running Backs that are quite capable of giving a team a sensational running game. Get an Oline and then weíll start to see a decent running game. Look for a RB, but not until round 3 IMO.
we already have two f those and...well, we got what we paid for.

Locking in to absolutes is the way you become the Browns. Pick the best players and youíll win more often than not.
For Paesan98  
Jim in NH : 2/10/2018 8:26 pm : link
So, you agree, of the 31 QBs who won 51 Super Bowls:

14 were picked in the first round, positions 1-7
13 were picked after the first round, or were undrafted
4 were picked lower in the first round?

I actually think the whole data set (which leaves out Ryan Leaf, JaMarcus Russell, Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Byron Leftwich, David Carr, and others) supports my view that it does not matter where you pick, but it matters a lot who does the picking.

The facts do not support the view that the only way, or even the best way, to get a QB who can win the Super Bowl is by using a high first round draft choice.
I pick Barkley  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 2/10/2018 8:48 pm : link
Matt Ryan is a very good QB, but not a HOF QB.
I think there is way too much  
Reb8thVA : 2/10/2018 9:11 pm : link
Anchoring bias that goes on on this board. People donít question their assumptions
RE: I think there is way too much  
Bill L : 2/10/2018 9:16 pm : link
In comment 13828846 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
Anchoring bias that goes on on this board. People donít question their assumptions
there probably is a lot of dead weight here.
Nobody can agree on who is the best QB in the draft  
Rjanyg : 2/10/2018 10:33 pm : link
But most agree Barkley is the best RB and many think the best player in the draft. He will make a huge impact day one for NYG.

It's all about the plan that DG and PS come up with.
RE: I like Barkley a lot  
santacruzom : 2/11/2018 3:07 am : link
In comment 13828452 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
He's not in Jim Brown or OJ Simpson territory. Please let's stop comparing him to HOFers before he even runs at the combine.

Also let's get it out of our head that the Giants aren't drafting q QB. It makes no sense to draft a RB at 2. When you can get guys like Michel, Chubb, Freeman, Rodney Anderson etc etc somewhere in rounds 2-5. The value just isn't there.


I dunno. In hindsight it seems laughable, but I bet people said the same about Ladainian Tomlinson prior to 2001... "You could just as easily take a guy like Deuce McCallister, Travis Henry, Lamont Jordan, etc much later and get almost the same production!"
RE: No I'm basing it off the history of football  
santacruzom : 2/11/2018 3:16 am : link
In comment 13828498 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
Quarterbacks last a lot longer then RBs. It's a fact.


Yeah but... So?

I can't imagine that your average GM is spending those minutes in the draft room debating between taking the guy who might be less talented but is more likely to be on the team for 15 years (but by no means guaranteed to be, for a litany of reasons), and the much more talented guy who may merely be around for half that. That's a good way for the GM to be fired prior to the end of those 15 years.
RE: For Paesan98  
Jimmy Googs : 2/11/2018 5:54 am : link
In comment 13828823 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
So, you agree, of the 31 QBs who won 51 Super Bowls:

14 were picked in the first round, positions 1-7
13 were picked after the first round, or were undrafted
4 were picked lower in the first round

The facts do not support the view that the only way, or even the best way, to get a QB who can win the Super Bowl is by using a high first round draft choice.


Don't the facts above EXACTLY support the view that the most likely place to find a Super Bowl Winning QB is Rd 1?

what am i missing...
Not going QB at #2  
johnboyw : 2/11/2018 1:59 pm : link
I think there is a good chance this may happen since both Darnold and Rosen have their warts but as much as I love Barkley, I would not take a RB at #2 either. Average life for a RB is 4-5 years. You want this pick to be a 10 year starter who goes to the Pro Bowl on a regular basis. A cornerstone player.
With the announcement that Manning will be around for another year or two and with the presumed development of Davis Webb, there does not seem to be an urgency to force a QB right now, especially for a team with so many other needs thanks to the Reese/Ross drafting regime. Both Denver at #5 and the Jets at #6 would love to have the #2 pick to secure their QB of the future. Were the Giants to swap 1st round picks with either, they would likely pick up an extra #2 and #4 this year. Given that they likely won't find much OL help in free agency, save for maybe Andrew Norwell, and that their two best lineman, Pugh and Richburg, are free agents who may not be worth paying what they want, and the fact that Gettleman and Shurmer have both stated that the OL needs to be fixed, I think the Giants best course of action might be to trade down to #5 or #6 and draft Quenton Nelson, a cornerstone lineman who may be the best and safest player in this draft and then go with LT Martinas Rankin and either Sony Michel or Nick Chubb at the top of Round 2. Move Flowers to RT and let Rankin compete with Wheeler at LT. Can worry about the QB next year.
Rankin be  
XBRONX : 2/11/2018 2:10 pm : link
stanking. Weak player.weak power base.
'If we do not decide to go QB at #2 ?'...  
Torrag : 2/11/2018 4:19 pm : link
Trade back as far as #6 with the Jets with only Denver an undesirable partner because of the strong chance they have a rebound seasson with a weak schedule and devalue the next years #1 that must be the cornerstone of any offer to move down, even if it's a deal with the Colts at #3.
RE: Not going QB at #2  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/11/2018 6:11 pm : link
In comment 13829149 johnboyw said:
Quote:
I think there is a good chance this may happen since both Darnold and Rosen have their warts but as much as I love Barkley, I would not take a RB at #2 either. Average life for a RB is 4-5 years. You want this pick to be a 10 year starter who goes to the Pro Bowl on a regular basis. A cornerstone player.
With the announcement that Manning will be around for another year or two and with the presumed development of Davis Webb, there does not seem to be an urgency to force a QB right now, especially for a team with so many other needs thanks to the Reese/Ross drafting regime. Both Denver at #5 and the Jets at #6 would love to have the #2 pick to secure their QB of the future. Were the Giants to swap 1st round picks with either, they would likely pick up an extra #2 and #4 this year. Given that they likely won't find much OL help in free agency, save for maybe Andrew Norwell, and that their two best lineman, Pugh and Richburg, are free agents who may not be worth paying what they want, and the fact that Gettleman and Shurmer have both stated that the OL needs to be fixed, I think the Giants best course of action might be to trade down to #5 or #6 and draft Quenton Nelson, a cornerstone lineman who may be the best and safest player in this draft and then go with LT Martinas Rankin and either Sony Michel or Nick Chubb at the top of Round 2. Move Flowers to RT and let Rankin compete with Wheeler at LT. Can worry about the QB next year.

Nelson may not even be the best OG, let alone the best OL, and certainly not the best player. Maybe you can draft a line break for your wall of text with #2 pick.
RE: Thatís a contradiction  
Jersey55 : 2/12/2018 4:40 pm : link
In comment 13828454 Bill L said:
Quote:
Unless youíre saying that you *wouldnít* ever draft Jim Brown or OJ Simpson at #2.

Which is okay I guess. Some people are wed to their dogma. IMO, itís daft, but different strokes.
todays complete RB must also be a good blocker and neither Brown or Simpson were blockers, as a matter of fact Jim Brown told the Browns that he wasn't being paid to block he was a RB..
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