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Draft Focus

giantstock : 2/11/2018 9:53 pm
IMO for the Giants they need to focus on the Oline and Defense in rounds 2-5. All this assumes there are no players on the board that slip drastically though and become surpeisingly available.

Round 1 take a QB.

For Round 2 need an Offensive Lineman. Also-- they need a Free Agent signing OL. For a free agent signing in another thread- I mentioned to get Chris Hubbard from Pittsburgh. Hubbard is a primary OT but he can move anyhwere.

Now I would look to add one more quality OL. I would prefer an OT and possibly the tackle that can get Flowers away from the tackle position either immediately or 1 year in the future. I don't think Orlando Brown nor Mike McGlinchey would be available. So here are some others:

So Round 2 hopefully Isiaah Wynn, Kolton Miller might be available. Wynn is not necessarily an OT. But take him if you have the chance and see how he does or take Miller. If not available maybe Willie Hernandez at Guard might be available. And Sy mentioned Braden Smith. But he seems like nothing but a guard. A very good guard.

Round 3 and round 4
In either Rd 3 or 4 get the best available OLB.

Round 3 or Round 4 or Round 5
Get the best available player between a FS and OLB in Round 3.

If OLB taken in round 3 then get best available between any DL or FS.

Then in Rd 5 get a FS or DL whichever not drafted in 4.

Sy said that he believes  
Jay on the Island : 2/11/2018 10:04 pm : link
Braden Smith could also play LT. If this is true then he should be at the top of the Giants board in round 2 IF he is available. Smith or Wynn is a huge get for the Giants in round 2.
I would also prefer to see the Giants  
Jay on the Island : 2/11/2018 10:05 pm : link
use either a 3rd or 4th round pick on a developmental OT like Brian O'Neill, Alex Cappa, etc.
They need to focus on getting the picks right.  
Torrag : 2/11/2018 10:06 pm : link
You do that by not forcing positions but taking the best players.
RE: They need to focus on getting the picks right.  
Jay on the Island : 2/11/2018 10:07 pm : link
In comment 13829497 Torrag said:
Quote:
You do that by not forcing positions but taking the best players.

Braden Smith and Isaiah Wynn check off both need and BPA.
So your crystal ball told you...  
Torrag : 2/11/2018 10:08 pm : link
...right now, who the best player will be on the Giants board when they are on the clock on Draft day? Impressive...if you see what I mean.
sorry, but I don't agree  
paesan98 : 2/11/2018 10:10 pm : link
with this approach. You can't take a QB in round 1 because of a perceived need. If you don't believe that one of these guys is a franchise QB, you would be making a mistake. And you don't waste draft picks drafting for need. You take the best player available on your board. That's what helps your team. If you have players ranked equally, then you can consider needs.
RE: So your crystal ball told you...  
Jay on the Island : 2/11/2018 10:12 pm : link
In comment 13829500 Torrag said:
Quote:
...right now, who the best player will be on the Giants board when they are on the clock on Draft day? Impressive...if you see what I mean.

I see what your saying but they will surely be in that grouping IF they are available. I fully expect a repeat of 2004 with QB then OL.
RE: RE: They need to focus on getting the picks right.  
paesan98 : 2/11/2018 10:13 pm : link
In comment 13829499 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 13829497 Torrag said:


Quote:


You do that by not forcing positions but taking the best players.


Braden Smith and Isaiah Wynn check off both need and BPA.


Maybe not. We won't know who the BPA is until our turn comes on draft day.
giantstock:  
mrvax : 2/11/2018 11:57 pm : link
With all the Oline talk, you forgot we need a guy who also plays center. Richburg is likely a gonner and Jones is just OK.
RE: So your crystal ball told you...  
giantstock : 2/12/2018 12:05 am : link
In comment 13829500 Torrag said:
Quote:
...right now, who the best player will be on the Giants board when they are on the clock on Draft day? Impressive...if you see what I mean.


You have to take the context post into account. So if you want to take my post so literal and ignore the context and the point I made by saying "surprises" - I'd like to counter. If the Giants take the QB that is number 1 on their board at 2, then in the 2nd round a QB becomes available, does this mean you would then take a QB int he 2nd round too? And then in the 3rd round if a QB fell, would you take him too? So I guess you are saying always take the higher player on the board regardless of need even if you take multiple QB's in the 1st 3 rounds?
RE: sorry, but I don't agree  
giantstock : 2/12/2018 12:14 am : link
In comment 13829502 paesan98 said:
Quote:
with this approach. You can't take a QB in round 1 because of a perceived need. If you don't believe that one of these guys is a franchise QB, you would be making a mistake. And you don't waste draft picks drafting for need. You take the best player available on your board. That's what helps your team. If you have players ranked equally, then you can consider needs.


I think if the Giants use the 2nd pick in the draft and choose "the right QB" that is available, that I think that "value" is the best.

There is no such thing as what you suggest. It's fantasy. In Tom Brady's prime. In Peyton Manning's prime -- you would take a QB late in the 1st round if the QB was the guy highest on your board as late 1st round pick? Or would you take the next guy in-lien based on need? When the Giants had Taylor and Banks playing at amazing level, you think it wise to take the OLB in the 1st round of that draft (Giants would have had a low pick late 1st round) instead of going more towards a need?
RE: giantstock:  
giantstock : 2/12/2018 12:40 am : link
In comment 13829540 mrvax said:
Quote:
With all the Oline talk, you forgot we need a guy who also plays center. Richburg is likely a gonner and Jones is just OK.


I know but Jones is "ok." And I don't know what the Giants expectations are and how much cap they'll have and if they are going to keep Eli. And who they plan to cut. So I'm only going under the assumption of about $18m. SO I think I was being conservative.

So now I've got 5 offensive lineman. -
Jones at center. But if the giants picked up Chris Hubbard he also can play center. ANd if they draft Isiaah Wynn he can also play center.

And Fluker is a guard. And Flowers might be able to play guard and Hubbard can play guard and Wynn can play guard.

And all 3 of Flowers, Hubbard, and Wynn can play Tackle. So I accounted for versatility with just these 5.

So it depends what happens with Eli and then it would make it more possible to get more players and higher quality ones at that.
IMO, the failure of proper O-line draft focus is the reason ...  
Manny in CA : 2/12/2018 1:49 am : link

That we SAT and watched the Eagles win the Super Bowl and were not there handing Tom Brady his 3rd SB loss to US.

Enough of getting leap-frogged out of the opportunity to get top-tier talent like Scherff and Conkilin and the settle for first round imposters like Pugh and Flowers (as well as 2nd round JAGs like Richmond and Beatty).

(Seems to me that would have learned that lesson in SB XXXV, when our rag-tag O-line was decimated by the Ravens ).

This year presents a golden opportunity to prove that Philly is a one-year-wonder and collect our 5th Lombardi (or more).

Sure, they're top-dog, right now, but recall that undermanned as we were this year, it took them to the last play of the game, the two times we met them - to beat us.
RE: They need to focus on getting the picks right.  
Mike from SI : 2/12/2018 4:32 am : link
In comment 13829497 Torrag said:
Quote:
You do that by not forcing positions but taking the best players.


Preach brother.
Position focus on the draft,in terms of who the Giants will draft,  
TheMick7 : 2/12/2018 6:36 am : link
won't actually come into focus until ,at least, a week after March 14th.Once we know who we have brought in as FAs,then positions/draft priority will fall into place. Gettleman's past record indicates he will be aggressive in FA so I think besides the #2 pick(I'm in the "they're going to take a QB"camp) our draft is a blank canvas right now. It's fun to speculate & do mock drafts but things will change drastically between now & April 26th.
Define 'best'  
idiotsavant : 2/12/2018 6:56 am : link
Especially after round 3 or so. Best for this team? Even that, nobody can safely measure that with a high degree of confidence into a career.

So you consider the likely hood of high value or quality positionally round by round.

So you also start thinking about specific types, positions, synergies, opportunities.

Call that need or whatever you call it. It's not one or the other.

If they do it well, they will have 'if so and so is still undrafted by round X that's great for this team'...a list of those all the way down.
Like 5-6 per round  
idiotsavant : 2/12/2018 7:09 am : link
And obviously depends on what you did prior rounds.
You don't draft by position.  
Mike from Ohio : 2/12/2018 8:06 am : link
Taking the best OL available in round 2 is a bad strategy. You rank players and draft talent. If there is little difference between the grades, no one is an OL and the other a receiver, obviously then you lean towards the position of need. Of course if you took a QB in round one you don't take another in round 2. NOBODY suggested that.

It would be great if there is OL talent worth the pick at the top of the 2nd. If it is close maybe you lean toward an OL, but you don't just take the best OL available.
That's not a smart tactic at the draft  
JonC : 2/12/2018 8:09 am : link
and UFA comes first for urgent needs.
RE: Sy said that he believes  
Beer Man : 2/12/2018 8:27 am : link
In comment 13829494 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Braden Smith could also play LT. If this is true then he should be at the top of the Giants board in round 2 IF he is available. Smith or Wynn is a huge get for the Giants in round 2.
Regarding Smith, other draft boards have him rated significantly lower than Sy. NFL.com projects him to be drafted rounds 3 to 4.
RE: Define 'best'  
giantstock : 2/12/2018 8:59 am : link
In comment 13829578 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
Especially after round 3 or so. Best for this team? Even that, nobody can safely measure that with a high degree of confidence into a career.

So you consider the likely hood of high value or quality positionally round by round.

So you also start thinking about specific types, positions, synergies, opportunities.

Call that need or whatever you call it. It's not one or the other.

If they do it well, they will have 'if so and so is still undrafted by round X that's great for this team'...a list of those all the way down.


I mean "highest on the board" when I referred to "best" in taking an OLB.

For the QB I mean the player most likely to have the most impact by combining short term and long term.

When I made this thread I was being conservative. I was giving what I felt "bare-bones." OFC if they were to decide to sign Norwell, and Cooper and re-sign Richburgh then in Round 2 they wouldn't be looking for a guard.

If they don't keep ELi - more than likely they are telling us that they're in rebuild mode. But who knows, maybe they trade for "Fowles" instead. I seriously doubt this.

All I did was put out a partial strategy that would work as a combination of short-term and long-term.

On another thread I created around the same time as this-- I said their top action should be to get the ILB Avery Williamson. All of us know the LB core are free agents. Avery is going to be 26 years old. He fits in either a win-now or rebuild mode. If Giants have cap space and they are in win-now mode, then maybe they get another LB - an OLB as a Free Agent (or maybe 2). But in terms of synergy - at a bar minimum the preferred #1 target guy is Avery.

And at the very least in terms of synergy if they are in rebuild - then I felt an OLB is needed. Whether it be in the draft or an unproven cheap OLB - I feel they need one more LB -- then at the worst they could "settle" for one of their LB's from last year or go get another cheap guy. But in terms of LB- the starting point is AT LEAST Avery and one other cheap LB if you are going to rebuild.
RE: RE: Sy said that he believes  
giantstock : 2/12/2018 9:13 am : link
In comment 13829610 Beer Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13829494 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


Braden Smith could also play LT. If this is true then he should be at the top of the Giants board in round 2 IF he is available. Smith or Wynn is a huge get for the Giants in round 2.

Regarding Smith, other draft boards have him rated significantly lower than Sy. NFL.com projects him to be drafted rounds 3 to 4.


Several others project him in 2nd round / maybe 3rd. Though at leats one below says maybe 1st.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=130731&draftyear=2018&genpos=OG

https://draftwire.usatoday.com/2017/12/31/braden-smith-nfl-draft-profile/

https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Draft-Scouting-Reports/Scouting-Report-Braden-Smith.asp

https://withthefirstpick.com/2018/01/27/2018-nfl-draft-braden-smith-scouting-report/

http://walterfootball.com/draft2018OG.php

RE: IMO, the failure of proper O-line draft focus is the reason ...  
Victor in CT : 2/12/2018 9:18 am : link
In comment 13829558 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

That we SAT and watched the Eagles win the Super Bowl and were not there handing Tom Brady his 3rd SB loss to US.

Enough of getting leap-frogged out of the opportunity to get top-tier talent like Scherff and Conkilin and the settle for first round imposters like Pugh and Flowers (as well as 2nd round JAGs like Richmond and Beatty).

(Seems to me that would have learned that lesson in SB XXXV, when our rag-tag O-line was decimated by the Ravens ).

This year presents a golden opportunity to prove that Philly is a one-year-wonder and collect our 5th Lombardi (or more).

Sure, they're top-dog, right now, but recall that undermanned as we were this year, it took them to the last play of the game, the two times we met them - to beat us.


That and hiring Ben McAdoosh
If the Giants can sign 2  
mrvax : 2/12/2018 9:23 am : link
decent veteran Oline guys, they can probably grab 1 Oline on day 2 and continue with Oline work next year. Just getting a decent pass & run blocking for 2018 would be a great accomplishment.

Reese ignored the Oline for quite some time. When he saw just how terrible it became, he did try to fix it with Pugh, Richburg & Flowers.

The Giants scouts had trouble evaluating Oline and linebacker talent. I'd really like to boot Jerry in the ass for taking Flowers so high. Most if not all draftnics had Flowers at the end of round 1. Should have taken Peat.

The Beatty injury forced a rookie to start at LT.

The Giants have to fill almost the entire OL  
Rudy5757 : 2/12/2018 10:03 am : link
So FA will play a big role in the Draft for the OL. They have to go into the draft with at least 2 FA OL under contract to free them up to draft BPA. They can't force OL and pass up on other players. I think DG will be aggressive and get the players he wants that will help this team. We need to come out with at least 2 starting caliber players if we draft a QB 1st round and 3 if we dont. We are picking at the top of the rounds so in the 2nd we should see 1st round talent and in the 3rd we should see 2nd round talent in theory especially if there is a run on QBs.

If we dont take a QB, we should trade and hopefully come away with 3 studs and set us up for 1 last run but I think we will draft a QB 1st.
RE: If the Giants can sign 2  
giantstock : 2/12/2018 10:56 am : link
In comment 13829666 mrvax said:
Quote:
decent veteran Oline guys, they can probably grab 1 Oline on day 2 and continue with Oline work next year. Just getting a decent pass & run blocking for 2018 would be a great accomplishment.

Reese ignored the Oline for quite some time. When he saw just how terrible it became, he did try to fix it with Pugh, Richburg & Flowers.

The Giants scouts had trouble evaluating Oline and linebacker talent. I'd really like to boot Jerry in the ass for taking Flowers so high. Most if not all draftnics had Flowers at the end of round 1. Should have taken Peat.

The Beatty injury forced a rookie to start at LT.


Are the Giants tryign to win this upcoming year or rebuild?

If they are trying to win then it means they keep ELi but how much money can they spend?

If they are in rebuild mode, then they don't need to after a lot of OL. They can juts go with youth.
if DG manages to, for example  
JonC : 2/12/2018 10:57 am : link
sign Norwell, Richburg, and perhaps a more moderate cost player at the other OG position, they're largely freed up for the draft in terms of OL.

Not seeing any UFA answers at LT, I'm looking for potential options that might be on the tier in the 2nd round.

In other words, not a lot of new OTs on tap to my eye.
RE: The Giants have to fill almost the entire OL  
giantstock : 2/12/2018 11:00 am : link
In comment 13829688 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
So FA will play a big role in the Draft for the OL. They have to go into the draft with at least 2 FA OL under contract to free them up to draft BPA. They can't force OL and pass up on other players. I think DG will be aggressive and get the players he wants that will help this team. We need to come out with at least 2 starting caliber players if we draft a QB 1st round and 3 if we dont. We are picking at the top of the rounds so in the 2nd we should see 1st round talent and in the 3rd we should see 2nd round talent in theory especially if there is a run on QBs.

If we dont take a QB, we should trade and hopefully come away with 3 studs and set us up for 1 last run but I think we will draft a QB 1st.


As I asked another poster- do you think the Giants are trying to win this upcoming year or rebuild? If rebuild they don't need to go after a lot. If they are tryign to win their LB core stinks too. How much cpa money do they have if they keep Eli? Enough to get quality LB's and quality OL?

And as far as the draft there are about 10 offensive lineman worthy of 1st round/ 2nd round early 3rd round.So the Giants 2nd round pick should be able to get good OLineman?
If you look at it as 22 positions  
idiotsavant : 2/12/2018 11:14 am : link
(Three different corner spots. Or 4,...or etc) what have you. For sake of discussion...its why I like the 'pools' method.

If you have 7 picks, and 10 chit positional tags in your pool (some can be repeated) aaand are picking BPA but only from within that pool of positions...

Taking into account how unscientific such valuations actually are, you are:

very likely to have an arguable 'overall bpa' individual player from within the positional chits in your pool.

It's a way of instituting discipline and avoiding the biasis and unbalanced roster problem we saw and have now.

I would define 'best' as 'most likely to be able to help us win game 1 of the next season'. In that way you avoid the fantasy of developing major projects .
RE: If you look at it as 22 positions  
giantstock : 2/12/2018 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13829765 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
(Three different corner spots. Or 4,...or etc) what have you. For sake of discussion...its why I like the 'pools' method.

If you have 7 picks, and 10 chit positional tags in your pool (some can be repeated) aaand are picking BPA but only from within that pool of positions...

Taking into account how unscientific such valuations actually are, you are:

very likely to have an arguable 'overall bpa' individual player from within the positional chits in your pool.

It's a way of instituting discipline and avoiding the biasis and unbalanced roster problem we saw and have now.

I would define 'best' as 'most likely to be able to help us win game 1 of the next season'. In that way you avoid the fantasy of developing major projects .


My definition of best and yours is different. I could counter and say without looking beyond game 1 of next season you'll always be stuck chasing your own tail from week 1 to week 2 to week 3.

IMO the moves come down to what the Giants GM believes he has. If he feels he has a contender and has cash available to get players then go for a quick overpay in free agency like they did 2 years ago.

But if they do that and try to go all out to win game 1 of next year and game 2 etc- thye not only have to rebuild the OLine. They have to rebuidl the linebackers. And they have to figure away to deal with the 2 crackpots in the secondary. DO you cut them? All the while you are overpaying Eli.

To avoid these issues and pretend like Game 1 and game 2 and game 3 are preludes to a contender; that's is living in a fantasy.

To start with-- what are they going to do with Eli? DO they think they are a contender? And how much Free Agency money do they have? Right now I think it about $18m

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