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One fear I have this offseason - forcing moves at OL

Giantfan in skinland : 2/12/2018 1:29 pm
The GM has said it, job one to make this team competitive again is to fix the OL. I agree wholeheartedly. However, this offseason just doesn't seem to line up as a great one for addressing OL.

In free agency, you have Norwell at G and not much else (in fact, the Giants guys are near the top of many of the lists I've seen - how's THAT for a thin market). In the draft, looks like there could be some solid options at G in the 2nd/3rd rounds, but not an overwhelming class.

I just hope Gettlemen can exercise some patience here if the right options don't line up. I'm concerned that there may be a lot of pressure on him to try to fix this thing all at once. I don't want the Giants to overpay for guys in FA just to make a change/force picks on good but not great talent simply out of need. Frankly, that seems to have been how we ended up with the current group.

When we came out of FA/draft last year without having made a significant investment on the OL, it certainly felt like a whiff to me....but that was because I saw some legitimate possible answers there. This year, just feels different. I guess I won't mind seeing the GM show some restraint and say the right guys weren't there (if they're not). I expect them to add at least one blue chip guy at G (norwell and/or a 2nd/3rd rounder), but I'm just not sure there's the opportunity for a lot more (besides stop gap type players).
The only thing you really have to fear  
Jimmy Googs : 2/12/2018 1:38 pm : link
is fear itself.

My guess is the Oline stuff will be a mix of some forcing, some not and some in-between. Mostly because there is a lot to do there and each move might beget a different move than originally planned.

Can only be upside if that calms your fears...
Gfis  
JonC : 2/12/2018 1:43 pm : link
Agree across the board, now is no time to tie up more precious cap space in bad decisions.
I think you should of challenged your own concerns with the  
LI NHB : 2/12/2018 1:54 pm : link
rest of your post. Yes, Norwell is a stud and will command top $. If you want him, you'll have to outbid the other (many) suitors. Plain and simple.

But like you said, the rest of the FA market is fairly pedestrian and thus shouldn't command top $. Of course teams can get desperate and reactive, but I wouldn't expect too much outside investment knowing there are extensions due to some pretty important people in Blue.

One name i'd like to see considered, should the Giants commit big dollars to either a Norwell or Pugh, would be Chris Clark. He's a young, serviceable tackle that played for the holdout Duane Brown in Houston.

Would be decent depth at a reasonable price.

Should read "you sort of challenged"  
LI NHB : 2/12/2018 1:54 pm : link
***
In the past Gettleman has done a good job  
Biteymax22 : 2/12/2018 1:55 pm : link
"bargain hunting" for O-Lineman. He signed O'Hara as an unknown and took Norwell as an UDFA. Hopefully he car rework some of that magic and get us a starter or 2 without breaking the bank.

Not much else  
superspynyg : 2/12/2018 1:58 pm : link
There is Nate Solder at LT. Cameron Fleming at RT. Daniel Kilgore at C, Xavier Su'a Filo at G.

All of these were better than our oline.
We have to trust DG and Shurmur  
Peppers : 2/12/2018 1:59 pm : link
Two guys who've had success with the OL. I don't think they'll force anything but I don't think they'll be passive either.

Don't forget the trade market  
GiantTuff1 : 2/12/2018 2:08 pm : link
I think if the Giants are looking for answers that don't seem apparent in FA or the draft, and too rich, there is still opportunity to better control our ROI by leveraging draft positioning, picks, and players that don't fit under DG and Shurmur anymore.

Guys like Apple, possibly DRC (though I like him), etc.
Lets consider the facts  
Emil : 2/12/2018 2:09 pm : link
1. The Giants have cap space, but not a ton when compared to most of the league. Even after the "create" more they are still pretty much in the middle of the pack.

2. Premium positions on the OL are LT, RT, OC in that order. Giants may need new players at all three of those positions, unless they are comfortable with Flowers at LT/RT and Jones at OC. I'd gamble on Jones, but not Flowers.

3. Premium FA OGs cost a lot of money. Around 9/10mil. On a team that needs a LT, LBs, another pass rusher, some secondary depth, and not to mention depth on the OL, I can't see spending big money on top of the line OGs. Especially when it is one of the easier positions to draft.

4. Also, Giants have two big contracts coming up. OBJ and Collins. And they are probably committed to keeping both of those guys. I wouldn't spend that money on a OG, no matter how good he is.

5. I would consider spending that money on an OT, but Nate Solder is the only one (projected) worthy of making big money as OT in this FA class. Others like Cordy Glenn, could become available, but they are not worth big money either.

6. So what is Gettleman to do? I say, do what he does best. Find unheralded O-line talent in FA and the draft. Everyone points to Norwell as a player the Giants will target because they need OL help and Gettleman knows him. Isn't it just as likely that Gettleman will look for the next Andrew Norwell as an unknown FA, UDFA, or mid-to-late round draft pick? That appears to be his MO.

Perspective...  
SLIM_ : 2/12/2018 2:29 pm : link
We just (don't get into semantics about timing) cut our starting right tackle. He is not even 24 years old. I'm thinking that he may go unsigned (if the story is true that he just didn't want to play - I would expect that to not go unnoticed by the rest of the league). He also was handed the starting job last year without any competition.

Do you think we really need to spend a lot of money to improve that position?

I see a couple of things
- We need to hit on at least 1 top end talent for OL. Draft or Free agency.
- We need to get at least another average starter. Draft or free agency.
- We need to continue to develop Wheeler, Jones, Bisnowaty and Halapio. Understood Jones may start and I would like to see Wheeler compete.

We do that and then Shurmur needs to...
- Utilize Ellison and understand that Engram is not an inline tight end.
- Stop the Mike McCarthy nonsense of not helping your offensive lineman. It doesn't work that well when you have Rodgers. It definitely doesn't work when you have Eli.
- In alignment with the Ellison/Engram point, run a more formation/play diverse scheme.

We are not going to build this in a day but there could be significant improvement in one year.


Disagree  
WillVAB : 2/12/2018 2:56 pm : link
I think the Giants can find two high level starters along the OL in rounds 2 and 3. If they snag Norwell they could be set on the interior. In that scenario the OL wouldn’t be a finished product but maybe Wheeler surprises at LT and Flowers is ok at RT — you never know. The downside is that even if it works out we’re stuck filling out the rest of the roster with late rounders.

If they trade down they’ll have plenty of picks to rebuild the deficient areas on the roster.

It all comes down to the QB situation. Ride with what you have and replenish the roster, or go QB, hope he pans out, and strap in for a rebuild period.
RE: In the past Gettleman has done a good job  
Emlen'sGremlins : 2/12/2018 3:08 pm : link
bargain hunting" for O-Lineman. He signed O'Hara as an unknown and took Norwell as an UDFA. Hopefully he car rework some of that magic and get us a starter or 2 without breaking the bank.

He also broke the bank for Kareem McKenzie, who was arguably one of our very best FA signings ever. DG will be aggressive this offseason and I will love it!
RE: Lets consider the facts  
giantstock : 2/12/2018 3:13 pm : link
In comment 13830058 Emil said:
Quote:
1. The Giants have cap space, but not a ton when compared to most of the league. Even after the "create" more they are still pretty much in the middle of the pack.

2. Premium positions on the OL are LT, RT, OC in that order. Giants may need new players at all three of those positions, unless they are comfortable with Flowers at LT/RT and Jones at OC. I'd gamble on Jones, but not Flowers.

3. Premium FA OGs cost a lot of money. Around 9/10mil. On a team that needs a LT, LBs, another pass rusher, some secondary depth, and not to mention depth on the OL, I can't see spending big money on top of the line OGs. Especially when it is one of the easier positions to draft.

4. Also, Giants have two big contracts coming up. OBJ and Collins. And they are probably committed to keeping both of those guys. I wouldn't spend that money on a OG, no matter how good he is.

5. I would consider spending that money on an OT, but Nate Solder is the only one (projected) worthy of making big money as OT in this FA class. Others like Cordy Glenn, could become available, but they are not worth big money either.

6. So what is Gettleman to do? I say, do what he does best. Find unheralded O-line talent in FA and the draft. Everyone points to Norwell as a player the Giants will target because they need OL help and Gettleman knows him. Isn't it just as likely that Gettleman will look for the next Andrew Norwell as an unknown FA, UDFA, or mid-to-late round draft pick? That appears to be his MO.


1-- The expecation is don't expect to be a playoff team? Is Eli being kept?

2-- Get young players -- get Chris Hubbard. Plays all posiitons across the line.

3-- Draft one offensive lineman in round 2. Round 2 with the 2nd pick you should be able to get a starter. Orlando Brown from Okie and Mike M. from Notre Dame will probably be gone. See if you can get Isiaah Wynn, Kolton Miller or go after more of guards such as Willi Hernandez or Sy's guy from Auburn- Smith I believe.

The idea is to get a free agent that can start and an OLineman in the draft that can start. Now for next year you give Flwowers one last chance whether it be at Tackle or Guard. You give Jones and Fluker shots too.

4-- In order to give OBJ AND Collins money need to say goodbye to Eli maybe? OFC I assume OBJ is okay. But not sure I'd back up the truck for Collins.

It is a good point  
Sy'56 : 2/12/2018 3:23 pm : link
And I agree. I would rather go in to 2018 with the same guys plus a couple rookies than spend over market value for guys who are average players an/or old.

That said, Norwell is legit and he is young.
RE: It is a good point  
Beer Man : 2/12/2018 3:48 pm : link
In comment 13830133 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
And I agree. I would rather go in to 2018 with the same guys plus a couple rookies than spend over market value for guys who are average players an/or old.

That said, Norwell is legit and he is young.
Agree, but the OL FA market is rather thin once again, and there are 20 teams with more cap space than the Giants. I think it will be like last year, where the better FA/OL are priced out of the Giants range.
RE: It is a good point  
old man : 2/12/2018 4:06 pm : link
In comment 13830133 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
And I agree. I would rather go in to 2018 with the same guys plus a couple rookies than spend over market value for guys who are average players an/or old.

That said, Norwell is legit and he is young.

+1.
We need a lot and they need to be homegrowns. Buying a D was a product of failure on homegrowns; missing out on drafting OL availables last year in favor of EE and/ or DT was inexcusable.
One or 2 OL picks res. 2-4 this year; same next year; a quality FA or 2 the next 2 offseasons= starters and quality depth.
And I'm a whole lot more confortable with DG vs JR getting ' the first pick'; as well as 2-6/7.
FWIW: I don't know who or how but I just have a gut feeling DG will pull off a trade to get a better pick position or extra early round pick.
For several years we ve been  
joeinpa : 2/12/2018 4:16 pm : link
Hearing it s not a good year from r offensive linemen. Yet the Vikings found 5 in one year.

There are always Brad Benson s and Shawn O'Hara/ Rich Sieberts (sp) out there. Find them, develop them
RE: For several years we ve been  
AcesUp : 2/12/2018 4:29 pm : link
In comment 13830204 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Hearing it s not a good year from r offensive linemen. Yet the Vikings found 5 in one year.

There are always Brad Benson s and Shawn O'Hara/ Rich Sieberts (sp) out there. Find them, develop them


I keep seeing the Vikings used as an example...it's only been 1 year. We made the same kind of investment in the DL back in 2016 and it was all sunshine and rainbows last offseason. It looks like we're regretting 2 of those contracts now.

I think the play is to put the full court press on Norwell, try to do whatever it takes to lock him up. He's the safest play of the big money FA, a guy that is only hitting the market because of what the Panthers have already invested on the OL recently. You can drop him in at LG and forget about that position for 5+ years. Look to the bargain bin from there, get an aging vet to compete at T (Ty Nsekhe or possibly Jason Peters post June 1). Sign a similar older vet on the interior. Draft a guy that can compete as a starter Day 2 of the draft. Get Ellison more involved and you have a passable unit. Finish the rebuild next offseason.
RE: For several years we ve been  
Sy'56 : 2/12/2018 4:33 pm : link
In comment 13830204 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Hearing it s not a good year from r offensive linemen. Yet the Vikings found 5 in one year.

There are always Brad Benson s and Shawn O'Hara/ Rich Sieberts (sp) out there. Find them, develop them


Ehhh....the MIN offensive line was average in 2017.
Sometimes all it takes  
paesan98 : 2/12/2018 5:22 pm : link
is adding 1 or 2 guys and shuffling the line around to get improvement
OBJ  
NikkiMac : 2/12/2018 6:28 pm : link
Is not playing for 8 million a year I don’t think

So there’s a concern there.
Disagree here  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/12/2018 6:29 pm : link
Quote:
However, this offseason just doesn't seem to line up as a great one for addressing OL.


How are we reaching this conclusion?
You should have more fear  
HomerJones45 : 2/12/2018 6:30 pm : link
of keeping the same 5-7 stiffs around who have sucked for the last 3 or 4 years.

If the Giants have to open up the wallets to get competent o-linemen, well that is just the wages of sin for letting the GM screw around for 5 or 6 years. Pay the money and get some competence on the o-line. Leaving the same clowns in place just wastes another season.
They have to force some moves.  
Red Dog : 2/12/2018 7:19 pm : link
Reese and Ross left the team in such bad shape on the OL that there is no alternative but force moves in an effort to improve what has become a multi-year disaster.
RE: You should have more fear  
Reb8thVA : 2/12/2018 7:54 pm : link
In comment 13830333 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
of keeping the same 5-7 stiffs around who have sucked for the last 3 or 4 years.

If the Giants have to open up the wallets to get competent o-linemen, well that is just the wages of sin for letting the GM screw around for 5 or 6 years. Pay the money and get some competence on the o-line. Leaving the same clowns in place just wastes another season.


That is my great fear, that once again we fail to field a competent OL.
It may be a sane approach  
fkap : 2/12/2018 10:02 pm : link
But it is the approach that Reese has taken for several years. How has that worked out? What is the overall review of Reese’s approach?

At some point you need to make a move. In FA, at OL you either pay, or get lucky. Drafting is going to take time and you have to be good at it.
They need at least 3 - 4 new linemen!  
Simms11 : 2/12/2018 11:00 pm : link
They’re going to have to force a few moves IMO. Pugh, Richburg and Fluker and Greco are all Free Agents, Jerry sucks ass and should be relegated to back up Guard, Flowers needs to be moved to the right side, Hart sucked and has been released, Jones is an RFA and so who’s left, but Flowers, Wheeler and Halapio. I think that’s pretty much the worst possible scenario and so yes, we need to force a few moves and probably will have to either trade or spend big bucks for a few decent linemen. We’re the only team in the entire NFC East that didn’t have a Pro Bowl lineman on the roster. In fact, other then Snee when did we last have an OLineman in the Pro Bowl. Yea, we need to find Olinemen big time!
FA  
Dragon : 2/13/2018 2:52 am : link
Take time to adjust and in most cases they never do these guys get the money but the teams are always the ones holding the short stick. Even the players probably looking back would have said I should have maybe taken less and played much better with my former then go to the bank and say maybe not, lol.
I’m glad I’m not  
Reb8thVA : 2/13/2018 7:08 am : link
The only one who thinks they may have to force some moves to field a competitive OL. This nibbling around he edges has resulted in nothing but five years of futility and lost opportunity
Oh posh!  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/13/2018 7:31 am : link
You can not compete if you are afraid to suceed. Last year was equally bad and so was the year before but somehow Shurmur made it work with middling FAs and draftees. Something has to be done. And for once i agree with HomerSimpson. The worse scenario is bring back the same ol chit and overspending to keep Pugh and Richburgh.

The giants really have to sign at least one premium OLineman this off season and then bring in a bunch of FAs and UDFAs and Draftees to compete for the rest of the positions. I believe that this is something Gettleman is skilled at and Shurmur knows how to make hash with. Embrace it. Dont live in fear.

Thats what I said  
Jimmy Googs : 2/13/2018 7:44 am : link
expect for the "oh posh" thing...
RE: RE: For several years we ve been  
gmenatlarge : 2/13/2018 8:19 am : link
In comment 13830227 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13830204 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Hearing it s not a good year from r offensive linemen. Yet the Vikings found 5 in one year.

There are always Brad Benson s and Shawn O'Hara/ Rich Sieberts (sp) out there. Find them, develop them



Ehhh....the MIN offensive line was average in 2017.


Uhh...average would have been a huge step up for the giants O-line!
All this is why I am not against  
idiotsavant : 2/13/2018 10:04 am : link
A trade down.

EVEN if we miss out on 'that qb' someone who wins 25 Superbowls. Or the next great RB.

At this point we hunger for a team with depth and skill and toughness in both lines... A type of team that is a bitch to defeat ..for any team ..on any Sunday and that always starts (if real, especially in the Fall....hello) with line play.

And clearly we need more than one special type ...so...

RE: Thats what I said  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/13/2018 11:02 am : link
In comment 13830663 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
expect for the "oh posh" thing...


Ha! Well put the oh posh! In and ill agree with you too 😄
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