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For those trashing Josh Rosen.....

sxdxca : 2/12/2018 5:44 pm
And saying he didn't have a winning record in college , so therefore he will be terrible in the NFL.

Well Matt Leinart was 37-2 in college , and turned out to be one of the biggest NFL qb busts of all time.

So please stop using that Bill Parcells quote , that all that matters for a qb is his win loss record in college.

Its a false measuring line , that collapses on itself.
I think most people that "trash" Josh Rosen  
JohnB : 2/12/2018 5:48 pm : link
do so because of his history of concussions. A few too many hits to the head and his career is over with. Otherwise, people have a lot of positive things to say about him.
I have one and only one concern about Rosen...  
Milton : 2/12/2018 6:00 pm : link
The shoulder injuries. And that's just not enough to drop him below number one on my board.
p.s.--the concussions don't concern me at all.
Concerns for taking Rosen  
RomanWH : 2/12/2018 6:02 pm : link
Start and end with his injury history. Concussions and shoulder surgery. Losing enough games to "earn" #2 overall... I don't know if you want to take chances with that pick on someone whose career might be over before it gets off the ground.
Concussions not concerning someone at all  
UConn4523 : 2/12/2018 6:05 pm : link
is weird, stinks of bias. I like him, and if his medicals check out then make him a Giant. But to disregard them as nothing is ridiculous.

The only thing way off with people who don’t like Rosen are those citing character concerns. They seem so bogus to me. And now everything he says those same people claim he’s just trying to cover himself pre draft. Very strange.
Time those of you pushing for a draft of Rosen ,  
TMS : 2/12/2018 6:07 pm : link
constantly, get the message that most us do to want him at # 2 period.. But it will not be up to us, DG and Shurmur will make that call . He is injury prone, and is not somebody that would rather be playing FB rather than anything else, like Shurmur said he wants in his players.
My biggest concerns with Rosen are  
robbieballs2003 : 2/12/2018 6:13 pm : link
1. His concussion
2. Milton's obsession
How is someone who missed 8 college games out of a possible 39  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/12/2018 6:15 pm : link
injury prone?

He had should surgery.
RE: My biggest concerns with Rosen are  
BillT : 2/12/2018 6:16 pm : link
In comment 13830312 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
1. His concussion
2. Milton's obsession

1. Not concerned in the slightest.
2. Completely eliminates him from consideration.
I understand the concern about concussions  
81_Great_Dane : 2/12/2018 6:17 pm : link
but realistically, don't you have to assume every single guy in the draft has had a concussion or two or three?
RE: I understand the concern about concussions  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/12/2018 6:22 pm : link
In comment 13830319 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
but realistically, don't you have to assume every single guy in the draft has had a concussion or two or three?


Especially defensive positions such as linebacker, and even linemen. Any position with repetitive impacts.
From  
AcidTest : 2/12/2018 6:22 pm : link
a pure talent standpoint, I think he's the best player in the draft. I don't care about his comments. But the concussions are concerning, and probably disqualifying.
RE: I understand the concern about concussions  
robbieballs2003 : 2/12/2018 6:24 pm : link
In comment 13830319 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
but realistically, don't you have to assume every single guy in the draft has had a concussion or two or three?


Are we supoosed to assume every player has missed a month of time and still couldn't play in a bowl game because of a concussion?
Concerns:  
giant24 : 2/12/2018 6:25 pm : link
1. Concussions
2. He already has his after football business career planned out and is excited about it.
RE: I have one and only one concern about Rosen...  
batman11 : 2/12/2018 6:31 pm : link
In comment 13830300 Milton said:
Quote:
The shoulder injuries. And that's just not enough to drop him below number one on my board.
p.s.--the concussions don't concern me at all.


I wonder if they concern his father, the neurologist/spine surgeon.... That could be a factor down the line. Just sayin.
This isn't something you can glance over  
robbieballs2003 : 2/12/2018 6:32 pm : link
when evaluating players. It is a very real situation that needs to be taken into account when evaluating prospects and not just assuming everyone gets them. Eli should have made us all aware of the phrase, "the best ability is availability."
Link - ( New Window )
RE: This isn't something you can glance over  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/12/2018 6:34 pm : link
In comment 13830337 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
when evaluating players. It is a very real situation that needs to be taken into account when evaluating prospects and not just assuming everyone gets them. Eli should have made us all aware of the phrase, "the best ability is availability." Link - ( New Window )


Eli's an unfair example to put on anyone. The fact that he's never gotten hurt is some kind of blessing, not a standard that should be expected. It flies in the face of what the sport is that a guy can play 14 years and never get hurt.
RE: RE: This isn't something you can glance over  
robbieballs2003 : 2/12/2018 6:35 pm : link
In comment 13830339 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13830337 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


when evaluating players. It is a very real situation that needs to be taken into account when evaluating prospects and not just assuming everyone gets them. Eli should have made us all aware of the phrase, "the best ability is availability." Link - ( New Window )



Eli's an unfair example to put on anyone. The fact that he's never gotten hurt is some kind of blessing, not a standard that should be expected. It flies in the face of what the sport is that a guy can play 14 years and never get hurt.


I don't get your point. You always do this. You love to play devil's advocate and cherry pick a comment. I never said any draft pick should be Eli in terms of health. I said Eli has shown is that health is very important. That is it.
RE: I think most people that  
Jay on the Island : 2/12/2018 6:37 pm : link
In comment 13830288 JohnB said:
Quote:
do so because of his history of concussions. A few too many hits to the head and his career is over with. Otherwise, people have a lot of positive things to say about him.

This.
The QB position is one in which  
allstarjim : 2/12/2018 6:38 pm : link
the highest competitors make their teammates better and when the outcome of the game is at its most perilous, that is when they play their best.

W-L record is just one important piece. It's not the only piece, it isn't everything, it isn't, by itself, a predictor of success or failure, but it IS PART OF THE EVALUATION.

If it was the only concern with Rosen, it wouldn't be something to even think about. But it's not the only concern.

He is not as good as some of you think he is. Some of you are so used to mediocrity you don't know what a GREAT QB prospect looks like anymore. Rosen just isn't "great". He's decent, but not great.

So if you disagree with me, please point to your specific arguments about him, emphasis on SPECIFIC, on why he is great. Give me the goods he has. What are they? Because the only thing he has that is GREAT or at least VERY GOOD is technique. There isn't one other aspect of him or his game that I'm putting at the elite level. Not his arm, not his accuracy, not his mobility...so what is it? He is not bad in any of those areas (except mobility), but he is "passable" in all of them. Likewise, what you are going to get at the NFL level is a "passable" QB. You should want more at #2 overall.

I'd rather Josh Allen, even. At least I can tell you multiple things and attributes at which he is GREAT.
Here is another case of a poster  
Jay on the Island : 2/12/2018 6:39 pm : link
using the opinion of a small percentage off BBI'ers as if they represent all of BBI.
The health of a starting QB is always important, but that's not  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/12/2018 6:42 pm : link
something people weren't aware of.

But the conversation of health where Rosen is concerned does not seem to be coming from an informed place. I see people parroting the same words over and over, and I've asked in multiple threads what his actual injury situation is (since I'm on the east coast and haven't watched him play), and nobody seems to have any more information than what's out there. That he missed half a season to shoulder surgery, and missed time due to a concussion.

That's not "injury prone". That's playing football for a living, especially when he's apparently played behind a lackluster O-line. I see nothing about that that tells me that he's any more of a risk than anyone else who puts on a Giants jersey.
RE: I understand the concern about concussions  
UConn4523 : 2/12/2018 6:44 pm : link
In comment 13830319 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
but realistically, don't you have to assume every single guy in the draft has had a concussion or two or three?


Yes, but wouldn’t that also mean potentially more for Rosen?
RE: The health of a starting QB is always important, but that's not  
robbieballs2003 : 2/12/2018 6:45 pm : link
In comment 13830350 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
something people weren't aware of.

But the conversation of health where Rosen is concerned does not seem to be coming from an informed place. I see people parroting the same words over and over, and I've asked in multiple threads what his actual injury situation is (since I'm on the east coast and haven't watched him play), and nobody seems to have any more information than what's out there. That he missed half a season to shoulder surgery, and missed time due to a concussion.

That's not "injury prone". That's playing football for a living, especially when he's apparently played behind a lackluster O-line. I see nothing about that that tells me that he's any more of a risk than anyone else who puts on a Giants jersey.


Ok. I never said injury prone. I said his multiple concussions and the length of them are 100% worrisome.
RE: My biggest concerns with Rosen are  
mrvax : 2/12/2018 6:47 pm : link
In comment 13830312 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
1. His concussion
2. Milton's obsession



It's weird. Milton will latch onto a solid draft prospect and for 4-5 months, hammer BBI with threads and posts talking up "his guy". He will trumpet the player's strengths and pooh-pooh what many consider valid concerns.

The word "obsession" is on the mark. It's as if Milton feels that by hammering BBI with "his guy", posters here will come to see things his way and he will tip the scales of the Giants draft board and have that guy get picked.

Last year it was Ramczyk.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/12/2018 6:48 pm : link
OP, you're fighting a straw man here.

The vast majority of the concerns with Rosen have absolutely nothing to do with his college record.
RE: RE: The health of a starting QB is always important, but that's not  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/12/2018 6:49 pm : link
In comment 13830355 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 13830350 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


something people weren't aware of.

But the conversation of health where Rosen is concerned does not seem to be coming from an informed place. I see people parroting the same words over and over, and I've asked in multiple threads what his actual injury situation is (since I'm on the east coast and haven't watched him play), and nobody seems to have any more information than what's out there. That he missed half a season to shoulder surgery, and missed time due to a concussion.

That's not "injury prone". That's playing football for a living, especially when he's apparently played behind a lackluster O-line. I see nothing about that that tells me that he's any more of a risk than anyone else who puts on a Giants jersey.



Ok. I never said injury prone. I said his multiple concussions and the length of them are 100% worrisome.


I know you didn't, but I'm not and haven't been directing all my comments at you. That label comes up in nearly every Rosen thread.
Who on this board  
bLiTz 2k : 2/12/2018 6:57 pm : link
trashed Rosen for his W-L record??

Out of the hundreds of Rosen threads that’s the one area that never really becomes a talking point —-because it shouldn’t.

Op i’d love for you to find some examples.
RE: RE: The health of a starting QB is always important, but that's not  
mrvax : 2/12/2018 6:58 pm : link
In comment 13830355 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:

Ok. I never said injury prone. I said his multiple concussions and the length of them are 100% worrisome.


A little positive news came on BBI last month with regards to Rosen. A poster who is an orthopedic surgeon posted here that if a person has had multiple concussions and can go a year w/o another one, he will no longer be "concussion prone" and will now have the average of having a new concussion.

Whatever team gets Rosen hopefully will have him just learn in 2018.
RE: I think most people that  
Mark from Jersey : 2/12/2018 7:03 pm : link
In comment 13830288 JohnB said:
Quote:
do so because of his history of concussions. A few too many hits to the head and his career is over with. Otherwise, people have a lot of positive things to say about him.
This...at least for me. Too early to take damaged goods
RE: RE: My biggest concerns with Rosen are  
robbieballs2003 : 2/12/2018 7:05 pm : link
In comment 13830359 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13830312 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


1. His concussion
2. Milton's obsession




It's weird. Milton will latch onto a solid draft prospect and for 4-5 months, hammer BBI with threads and posts talking up "his guy". He will trumpet the player's strengths and pooh-pooh what many consider valid concerns.

The word "obsession" is on the mark. It's as if Milton feels that by hammering BBI with "his guy", posters here will come to see things his way and he will tip the scales of the Giants draft board and have that guy get picked.

Last year it was Ramczyk.


Milton is a great poster. I just like busting his balls.
RE: RE: My biggest concerns with Rosen are  
Diver_Down : 2/12/2018 7:06 pm : link
In comment 13830359 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13830312 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


1. His concussion
2. Milton's obsession




It's weird. Milton will latch onto a solid draft prospect and for 4-5 months, hammer BBI with threads and posts talking up "his guy". He will trumpet the player's strengths and pooh-pooh what many consider valid concerns.

The word "obsession" is on the mark. It's as if Milton feels that by hammering BBI with "his guy", posters here will come to see things his way and he will tip the scales of the Giants draft board and have that guy get picked.

Last year it was Ramczyk.


I thought it was Cam Robinson.
RE: RE: RE: The health of a starting QB is always important, but that's not  
robbieballs2003 : 2/12/2018 7:08 pm : link
In comment 13830373 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13830355 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:



Ok. I never said injury prone. I said his multiple concussions and the length of them are 100% worrisome.



A little positive news came on BBI last month with regards to Rosen. A poster who is an orthopedic surgeon posted here that if a person has had multiple concussions and can go a year w/o another one, he will no longer be "concussion prone" and will now have the average of having a new concussion.

Whatever team gets Rosen hopefully will have him just learn in 2018.


More and more evidence comes out often today with all the attention paid to CTE. If that is true and we can have him sit for at least a year then that would be ideal.
RE: RE: My biggest concerns with Rosen are  
Milton : 2/12/2018 7:11 pm : link
In comment 13830359 mrvax said:
Quote:
The word "obsession" is on the mark. It's as if Milton feels that by hammering BBI with "his guy", posters here will come to see things his way and he will tip the scales of the Giants draft board and have that guy get picked.

Last year it was Ramczyk.
Last year it was Cam Robinson. And it's not that I feel I'm gonna change minds by hammering people with "my guy" and I certainly don't think I'll have any influence on the Giants draft board, it's just me participating in a thread.
My Guy - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: My biggest concerns with Rosen are  
mrvax : 2/12/2018 7:25 pm : link
In comment 13830385 Milton said:
Quote:
Last year it was Cam Robinson. And it's not that I feel I'm gonna change minds by hammering people with "my guy" and I certainly don't think I'll have any influence on the Giants draft board, it's just me participating in a thread. My Guy - ( New Window )


I have always enjoyed your posts, Milton. Robbie's too.
RE: The health of a starting QB is always important, but that's not  
Milton : 2/12/2018 7:26 pm : link
In comment 13830350 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
I've asked in multiple threads what his actual injury situation is (since I'm on the east coast and haven't watched him play), and nobody seems to have any more information than what's out there. That he missed half a season to shoulder surgery, and missed time due to a concussion.
He injured his shoulder playing tennis as a 12-year old and it caused him to give up the game, because he didn't love it enough to have the surgery. I don't know if there's any connection between the two, but he had another shoulder injury his sophomore year at UCLA and this time he had the surgery.

The two concussions didn't appear serious, but the fact that they occurred within four weeks of each other meant they didn't want to risk a third concussion within such a short period of time and that's why he was kept out of his bowl game. It wasn't because he was still feeling symptoms.

And this is why the concussions don't concern me. He is going to sit behind Eli for a year or two, so the concussions will be far enough in his rearview mirror to be a non-factor going forward. He is not going to cut his career short because of concussions (as some seem to fear even to the point of being convinced that will happen). This isn't a Chris Borland situation we are talking about with him.

It's the guys who are crashing into each other on just about every play who are taking on the greatest risk in terms of concussions. OL, DL, MLB, FB, who knows how many minor concussions these guys are having per game? It doesn't show up on film, but it adds up.
RE: I think most people that  
GFAN52 : 2/12/2018 7:30 pm : link
In comment 13830288 JohnB said:
Quote:
do so because of his history of concussions. A few too many hits to the head and his career is over with. Otherwise, people have a lot of positive things to say about him.


+1 I don't think is win-loss record is held against as much as his potential physical durability.
I am coming around on Rosen  
Jay on the Island : 2/12/2018 7:35 pm : link
He is now #2 on my wishlist after Darnold. If it weren't for the concussions he would be #1.
RE: Who on this board  
sxdxca : 2/12/2018 7:36 pm : link
In comment 13830371 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
trashed Rosen for his W-L record??

Out of the hundreds of Rosen threads that’s the one area that never really becomes a talking point —-because it shouldn’t.

Op i’d love for you to find some examples.


Dear Blitz

First of all thanks for responding in a respectful manner , so many on bbi just attempt to trash other people , and u didn't do that , so that's refreshing.

I don't have an exact quote , but more than a few times people on this board quote Parcells , and say all that mattered to him was a qb's win loss record in college.

And there is this misnomer going around , that Parcells philosophy is all that matters , and I was showing how bogus that philosophy is when evaluating a college qb.

Matt Leinart proves my point. I could only imagine what I would find out if I did other win loss records on other big name college qb's coming out.
Rosen  
AcidTest : 2/12/2018 7:41 pm : link
has a somewhat thin build that reminds me of Tony Eason. Even Sy said he had the body of a high school sophomore. Maybe he can add weight in an NFL weight training program, but he should be better developed after being at UCLA. Eli admittedly had a similar build, but he might be an exception. The quality of OL play in the NFL has also declined because more colleges use spread offenses. That increases the number of hits on QBs. As I've said, I'm not really enamored with Darnold, Rosen, or Allen at #2.
I do agree on the Parcells stuff  
UConn4523 : 2/12/2018 7:43 pm : link
no idea why his 30 year old, out dated mantra is touted as gospel. The NFL is so radically different now and QB's are seeing success earlier than ever before. And with the rookie pay scale, the risk with QB's is far less than it once was.
Is this an argument that all statistics are pointless?  
AdamBrag : 2/12/2018 7:48 pm : link
I'm not sure I understand it. I think a QB being able to win is a meaningful part of the process, just like evaluating tape or evaluating other statistics. There isn't likely a strong correlation between a QB winning a lot of games and being a successful QB, but there seems to be a relatively strong correlation of QBs who have winning percentages below 60% and them NOT being successful QBs in the NFL.

Aside from pure numbers mumbo jumbo, I think there is a valid question around why UCLA didn't win more as the team was talented and Rosen should have brought that team to another level. He didn't.
RE: Is this an argument that all statistics are pointless?  
sxdxca : 2/12/2018 7:55 pm : link
In comment 13830416 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
I'm not sure I understand it. I think a QB being able to win is a meaningful part of the process, just like evaluating tape or evaluating other statistics. There isn't likely a strong correlation between a QB winning a lot of games and being a successful QB, but there seems to be a relatively strong correlation of QBs who have winning percentages below 60% and them NOT being successful QBs in the NFL.

Aside from pure numbers mumbo jumbo, I think there is a valid question around why UCLA didn't win more as the team was talented and Rosen should have brought that team to another level. He didn't.


I just researched Jamarcus Russell , former #1 pick of the Raiders.

At LSU his win/loss record was 21-4 , way better than Rosen's , and was a total complete bust in the NFL.

Josh Rosen has only won 17 games in 3 years as a starter at UCLA. A big reason is because in his second year he missed a whole slew of games because of injury.

I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...
We salute  
Reb8thVA : 2/12/2018 7:57 pm : link
You?
RE: RE: Is this an argument that all statistics are pointless?  
Jay on the Island : 2/12/2018 8:36 pm : link
In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:
Quote:
In comment 13830416 AdamBrag said:


Quote:


I'm not sure I understand it. I think a QB being able to win is a meaningful part of the process, just like evaluating tape or evaluating other statistics. There isn't likely a strong correlation between a QB winning a lot of games and being a successful QB, but there seems to be a relatively strong correlation of QBs who have winning percentages below 60% and them NOT being successful QBs in the NFL.

Aside from pure numbers mumbo jumbo, I think there is a valid question around why UCLA didn't win more as the team was talented and Rosen should have brought that team to another level. He didn't.



I just researched Jamarcus Russell , former #1 pick of the Raiders.

At LSU his win/loss record was 21-4 , way better than Rosen's , and was a total complete bust in the NFL.

Josh Rosen has only won 17 games in 3 years as a starter at UCLA. A big reason is because in his second year he missed a whole slew of games because of injury.

I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...

Jay Cutler had a losing record at Vandy with a very weak supporting cast. From a physical and talent standpoint they are similar players. Now Cutler's biggest flaw is his attitude and work ethic. I wasn't implying that I believe Rosen will be the next Cutler I was just posting a counter argument.
None of these are the main issues with Rosen  
ThatLimerickGuy : 2/12/2018 8:39 pm : link
You are thinking about putting a kid who thinks he is a social justice pioneer and who feels the need to be outspoken on issues of the day into the NY media market.

He will get eaten up alive.
RE: None of these are the main issues with Rosen  
UConn4523 : 2/12/2018 8:42 pm : link
In comment 13830472 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
You are thinking about putting a kid who thinks he is a social justice pioneer and who feels the need to be outspoken on issues of the day into the NY media market.

He will get eaten up alive.


Yeah, cause that’s really the big concern. Your agenda reeks here.
RE: RE: Is this an argument that all statistics are pointless?  
mrvax : 2/12/2018 8:57 pm : link
In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:
Quote:

I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...


Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.
RE: RE: RE: Is this an argument that all statistics are pointless?  
sxdxca : 2/12/2018 9:11 pm : link
In comment 13830486 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:


Quote:



I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...



Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.


These are Parcells guidelines for drafting a qb

#1 He must be a senior

#2 He must be a graduate

#3 He must be a 3 year starter

#4 He must have at least 23 wins

Under normal circumstances these are nice guidelines , but Matt leinart 37 wins 2 losses , Jamarcus Russel 21 wins 4 losses , kind of shows its not a perfect formula.



RE: RE: RE: RE: Is this an argument that all statistics are pointless?  
Jay on the Island : 2/12/2018 9:14 pm : link
In comment 13830505 sxdxca said:
Quote:
In comment 13830486 mrvax said:


Quote:


In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:


Quote:



I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...



Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.



These are Parcells guidelines for drafting a qb

#1 He must be a senior

#2 He must be a graduate

#3 He must be a 3 year starter

#4 He must have at least 23 wins

Under normal circumstances these are nice guidelines , but Matt leinart 37 wins 2 losses , Jamarcus Russel 21 wins 4 losses , kind of shows its not a perfect formula.



Parcells wouldn't have drafted Russell under his guidelines as Russell was Junior when he declared so he obviously didn't graduate.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Is this an argument that all statistics are pointless?  
GFAN52 : 2/12/2018 9:19 pm : link
In comment 13830505 sxdxca said:
Quote:
In comment 13830486 mrvax said:


Quote:


In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:


Quote:



I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...



Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.



These are Parcells guidelines for drafting a qb

#1 He must be a senior

#2 He must be a graduate

#3 He must be a 3 year starter

#4 He must have at least 23 wins

Under normal circumstances these are nice guidelines , but Matt leinart 37 wins 2 losses , Jamarcus Russel 21 wins 4 losses , kind of shows its not a perfect formula.




Tom Brady was a 2 year starter. There are plenty of successful QBs that don't check all the boxes.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Is this an argument that all statistics are pointless?  
sxdxca : 2/12/2018 9:27 pm : link
In comment 13830518 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 13830505 sxdxca said:


Quote:


In comment 13830486 mrvax said:


Quote:


In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:


Quote:



I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...



Now hold on there partner. I believe the Parcells quote contained about 5 different things he looked for in a QB. Wins/losses was just 1 of them. And since the quote is likely 30+ years old, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. It could have been a rule of thumb when Bill made his comments.



These are Parcells guidelines for drafting a qb

#1 He must be a senior

#2 He must be a graduate

#3 He must be a 3 year starter

#4 He must have at least 23 wins

Under normal circumstances these are nice guidelines , but Matt leinart 37 wins 2 losses , Jamarcus Russel 21 wins 4 losses , kind of shows its not a perfect formula.






Tom Brady was a 2 year starter. There are plenty of successful QBs that don't check all the boxes.


Exactly .....Rosen and Darnold aren't seniors , or graduates , but there chances of being successful NFL QB's is very good
Nice Matt Leinart refrence, the same can be said for 1000 other guys  
est1986 : 2/12/2018 9:27 pm : link
BUT curious to see how many good NFL QBs with a poor college record you can refrence...?
The W-L record is like every other measurable  
Milton : 2/12/2018 9:31 pm : link
If it's inconsistent with what you see on film, you re-visit the film and see if it's meaningful or not. Nothing in and of itself is a deal-breaker, just like Baker Mayfield's height.
p.s.--No pun intended but Baker Mayfield is starting to grow on me.
How is it 2018 and people still use W/L arguments for individuals  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/12/2018 9:57 pm : link
in team sports. That has to be the laziest and least honest form of evaluation ever.
WTF are we getting all these posts about Rosen ?  
TMS : 2/12/2018 11:02 pm : link
Like the whole organization is being NAGGED to draft this guy. When most think he will be a short term flash in the pan QB who will quit after another concussion or injury with a golden parachute for retirement. My opinion. Pass.
RE: Who on this board  
est1986 : 2/12/2018 11:39 pm : link
In comment 13830371 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
trashed Rosen for his W-L record??

Out of the hundreds of Rosen threads that’s the one area that never really becomes a talking point —-because it shouldn’t.

Op i’d love for you to find some examples.


I’ve brought up his W-L as a concern of mine... but have never ever “trashed” Rosen... he and Baker are tied for my second fav QB in this class behind Darnold... did not say he won’t be a good QB based on his record but have only said it is a concern and have asked if anyone can remember a good NFL QB with a poor college record and it seems there hasn’t been one since Elway.....
Rosen  
Dragon : 2/13/2018 2:10 am : link
Is a very good QB in most drafts he would be the top however this draft he is the third best QB behind Allen and Darnold. Your looking for a franchise QB, desire, injury free, tuff, strong, young, great size, mobility, can make all the throws and has the most upside available.

Allen only comes of short in two of those fields he is a year older than the other two and broken collarbone injury history. The arm strength is something you can’t help but salivating upon images on an NFL field.

Darnold has not shown the deep ball as much in his game to this point but he checks all the other boxes solidly. He is second to Allen in physical and upside but he could be the safer pick of all three.

Rosen gets the big name and field time experience but comes up short in arm strength, physical size and injury concerns. He is a very good QB but compared to Allen and Darnold he comes up way short in several major areas.

If the Browns and Giants draft a QB they will both be looking at the weather conditions they play in you have to consider that as a primary requirement for your QB.
If Rosen is there at 2...  
KingBlue : 2/13/2018 6:51 am : link
He will be the selection. However, I suspect the Browns will take him.
Rosen looks  
mattyblue : 2/13/2018 7:41 am : link
like a great QB to me. I had the chance to, separately, meet him, Darnold, and Mayfield. All of them were very nice, Darnold had a lot of charisma you could tell right away. This was work related and I passed on going out on the trip where my team met Allen, but him and a few non QBs were the only ones that people complained about. Mayfield seemed so much shorter than what he actually measured at, I really thought he was gonna be in 5’ 10 range but I was wrong apparently. I spoke with Rosen the longest of the three and he genuinely seemed like a nice guy. He would have no reason to put an act on for me, none of that information would be relevant to what we do.
RE: The QB position is one in which  
section125 : 2/13/2018 7:58 am : link
In comment 13830346 allstarjim said:
Quote:

So if you disagree with me, please point to your specific arguments about him, emphasis on SPECIFIC, on why he is great. Give me the goods he has. What are they? Because the only thing he has that is GREAT or at least VERY GOOD is technique. There isn't one other aspect of him or his game that I'm putting at the elite level. Not his arm, not his accuracy, not his mobility...so what is it? He is not bad in any of those areas (except mobility), but he is "passable" in all of them. Likewise, what you are going to get at the NFL level is a "passable" QB. You should want more at #2 overall.

I'd rather Josh Allen, even. At least I can tell you multiple things and attributes at which he is GREAT.


If you think Allen is a better player than Rosen, then there is no point in posting anything.
We should do the reverse. Give us specifics on Allen. Ok he has a great arm - can't hit the broad side of a barn, but strong arm.

I'm not a scout, but if you cannot see that Rosen has a very strong, extremely accurate arm then you are fooling yourself. His mechanics are head and shoulders above all QBs in the draft. He quickly goes through his progressions.

Does he have faults? Yes. but they are injury concerns and his slight build, although I'd argue that Lamar Jackson is every bit as slightly built.
Rosen  
mattyblue : 2/13/2018 8:03 am : link
can through a bullet I will say that. Excellent velocity.
How can anyone..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/13/2018 8:06 am : link
dismiss the concussions??

Seriously. The league is teetering on a future collapse because of a spotlight on head trauma, and a guy coming into the league with two concussions is a huge risk. Most medical professionals would advise against ever playing a contact sport with multiple concussions, and they usually make that line in the sand on 3 severe concussions.

If you actually type "the concussions don't worry me", then that's being tone-deaf and really obtuse if not outright moronic.

It means the potential #2 pick is literally one bad hit away from having his career end.
To the op  
Tuckrule : 2/13/2018 8:17 am : link
Nobody discusses win loss record in college as any barometer for qb success. This notion was made up in your head and sadly for Bbi it appeared in a thread.
RE: How can anyone..  
Zepp : 2/13/2018 8:18 am : link
In comment 13830671 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
dismiss the concussions??

Seriously. The league is teetering on a future collapse because of a spotlight on head trauma, and a guy coming into the league with two concussions is a huge risk. Most medical professionals would advise against ever playing a contact sport with multiple concussions, and they usually make that line in the sand on 3 severe concussions.

If you actually type "the concussions don't worry me", then that's being tone-deaf and really obtuse if not outright moronic.

It means the potential #2 pick is literally one bad hit away from having his career end.


EXACTLY!!!!!!

Not to mention his typical millennial attitude. Gettleman says he wants players that hate to lose. Rosen, according to reports, already has his post football career planned out. He doesn't love the game and that is clear and on top of that he has concussions.

The Giants don't want to be in QB hell and drafting Rosen will put them in that.
damn, sxdxca killed all the doubters with this thread  
YAJ2112 : 2/13/2018 8:25 am : link
not one person had the guts to stand up to him and try to defend the W-L argument
I downplay the concussions to a good degree in the evaluation  
Jimmy Googs : 2/13/2018 8:29 am : link
From my view, its very hard to find such a strong candidate at QB, not alone being in the position to draft him. Not saying ignore the concussions as risk factors should be placed on all attributes, including the concussions.

But I would be placing far more risk on the Other QBs shortfalls at QB vs. Rosen than I would Rosen's concussion history vs the Others...
I have no problem with anything that Rosen has said. He sounds like an  
Victor in CT : 2/13/2018 8:37 am : link
intelligent kid. It's the concussion, the slight frame and the shoulder injury that worry me.
RE: How can anyone..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/13/2018 8:47 am : link
In comment 13830671 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
dismiss the concussions??

Seriously. The league is teetering on a future collapse because of a spotlight on head trauma, and a guy coming into the league with two concussions is a huge risk. Most medical professionals would advise against ever playing a contact sport with multiple concussions, and they usually make that line in the sand on 3 severe concussions.

If you actually type "the concussions don't worry me", then that's being tone-deaf and really obtuse if not outright moronic.

It means the potential #2 pick is literally one bad hit away from having his career end.


Though to be fair, anyone in football is one bad hit away from having his career end. We've seen that multiple times as Giants fans. Cruz and Nicks had their careers demolished by one hit.
Also, let's take a step back and realize what we're saying  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/13/2018 8:57 am : link
If a guy with two concussions in his career can now be considered a hard sell to draft, then you're not going to draft anyone that's played college football, and this becomes a very different conversation. Josh Rosen isn't the only player in the draft that's had a concussion or two. He's probably not the only player in the top 5. Do we think a runningback hasn't? A safety known for his hitting hasn't? A lineman hasn't?

With full respect to the concussion issue, and I'm acutely aware of how serious it is and I care very much about the long-term effects, they're not going to stop playing football in the next 5 years, so business is going to continue whether we pick now to make the stand on it or not.
Well that solves it  
Joey in VA : 2/13/2018 9:03 am : link
You are the first person in the history of the internet to totally sway a divergent opinion with a whiny opinion of your own. You did it!!! Congratulations.

Newsflash, people will disagree and hang on tighter when posts like this appear because it reminds them of their own arguing points. Stick to your guns, but please wake up and realize you are changing zero minds. Ever.
Concussions for a QB..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/13/2018 9:44 am : link
are much more serious than position players because of their role. They aren't there to take or deliver contact - they are there to make plays and be the team leader and they probably have the highest degree of cognitive function on the team. A RB or LB who gets their bell rung has the chance to walk it off. The QB doesn't get that leeway.

Again - this isn't a run of the mill draft slot - it is the #2 slot. One that has to be hit, and do so for the next several years.
I'm a fan of Rosen, but even if the conclusions  
barens : 2/13/2018 10:16 am : link
weren't too serious, I can't disregard them completely.

He is a heck of a QB tho, and if it weren't for some of these injuries, he would be the clear cut #1 QB/player in this draft. Me personally, I'd take the risk, but clearly I don't know all the in's and out's of his medical history, and neither does anyone else on this board.
RE: .  
JonC : 2/13/2018 10:21 am : link
In comment 13830361 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
OP, you're fighting a straw man here.

The vast majority of the concerns with Rosen have absolutely nothing to do with his college record.


That's often all the OP does here.
RE: RE: Is this an argument that all statistics are pointless?  
njm : 2/13/2018 10:38 am : link
In comment 13830426 sxdxca said:
Quote:
I guarantee Josh Rosen will have a very successful career compared to Jamarcus Russell , and will prove what a sham that win loss record Parcells came up with is a joke...


That's an AWFULLY low bar to set for someone you want to use the 2md pick in the draft to select.

And concern about an injury history is not "trashing" the guy in my book.
RE: RE: The QB position is one in which  
allstarjim : 2/13/2018 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13830666 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13830346 allstarjim said:


Quote:



So if you disagree with me, please point to your specific arguments about him, emphasis on SPECIFIC, on why he is great. Give me the goods he has. What are they? Because the only thing he has that is GREAT or at least VERY GOOD is technique. There isn't one other aspect of him or his game that I'm putting at the elite level. Not his arm, not his accuracy, not his mobility...so what is it? He is not bad in any of those areas (except mobility), but he is "passable" in all of them. Likewise, what you are going to get at the NFL level is a "passable" QB. You should want more at #2 overall.

I'd rather Josh Allen, even. At least I can tell you multiple things and attributes at which he is GREAT.



If you think Allen is a better player than Rosen, then there is no point in posting anything.
We should do the reverse. Give us specifics on Allen. Ok he has a great arm - can't hit the broad side of a barn, but strong arm.

I'm not a scout, but if you cannot see that Rosen has a very strong, extremely accurate arm then you are fooling yourself. His mechanics are head and shoulders above all QBs in the draft. He quickly goes through his progressions.

Does he have faults? Yes. but they are injury concerns and his slight build, although I'd argue that Lamar Jackson is every bit as slightly built.


He doesn't have a "very strong" arm. His arm strength is about "good enough". He is also not "extremely accurate". His accuracy is about "good enough". I did not say Allen was better than Rosen, but he has attributes that are great, unlike Rosen. In other words, if you look at Allen's arm strength, it is GREAT. Not just good, not passable, but elite. Allen's mobility is great. That's the point. Rosen has great mechanics. But I need more at the #2 pick and I need more from a franchise QB in the modern NFL. That's the whole point.
RE: RE: RE: The QB position is one in which  
Jarvis : 2/13/2018 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13831271 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13830666 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13830346 allstarjim said:


Quote:



So if you disagree with me, please point to your specific arguments about him, emphasis on SPECIFIC, on why he is great. Give me the goods he has. What are they? Because the only thing he has that is GREAT or at least VERY GOOD is technique. There isn't one other aspect of him or his game that I'm putting at the elite level. Not his arm, not his accuracy, not his mobility...so what is it? He is not bad in any of those areas (except mobility), but he is "passable" in all of them. Likewise, what you are going to get at the NFL level is a "passable" QB. You should want more at #2 overall.

I'd rather Josh Allen, even. At least I can tell you multiple things and attributes at which he is GREAT.



If you think Allen is a better player than Rosen, then there is no point in posting anything.
We should do the reverse. Give us specifics on Allen. Ok he has a great arm - can't hit the broad side of a barn, but strong arm.

I'm not a scout, but if you cannot see that Rosen has a very strong, extremely accurate arm then you are fooling yourself. His mechanics are head and shoulders above all QBs in the draft. He quickly goes through his progressions.

Does he have faults? Yes. but they are injury concerns and his slight build, although I'd argue that Lamar Jackson is every bit as slightly built.



He doesn't have a "very strong" arm. His arm strength is about "good enough". He is also not "extremely accurate". His accuracy is about "good enough". I did not say Allen was better than Rosen, but he has attributes that are great, unlike Rosen. In other words, if you look at Allen's arm strength, it is GREAT. Not just good, not passable, but elite. Allen's mobility is great. That's the point. Rosen has great mechanics. But I need more at the #2 pick and I need more from a franchise QB in the modern NFL. That's the whole point.


I would disagree with some of this, however, before i do I would address the whole "trashing" thing. In my opinion i think it's how definitely people on the board make statements (goes in both directions) that leads to the perception of trashing or in some cases over praising these prospects. We really don't know the medicals on these guys. I am an orthopaedic surgeon and even have some connections (i knew Johnathon Allen was gonna slide last year because i saw his shoulder x-ray) and yet i wouldn't pretend to know what is going on with Rosen's medicals. I will say that i have concerns, but i no way would i say anything "disqualifies" him as people lie to say.

In regards to his talent i do feel he has elite attributes. You mention technique and footwork as if it is not an attribute. I personally disagree there. Many QBs flame out due to poor mechanics. Shurmur himself has stated that the key to good QB play is the footwork. I think you are selling Rosen short to feel his footwork, mechanics, etc isn't as important as Allen's arm strength. His ability to place the ball his also elite. Being able to put the ball in spots only his receiver an get it. His intelligence is elite as well. From what i have read, his completion percentage numbers were by far the most affected by drops when compared to the other QB prospects. I mention this because i do believe that while he has been inconsistent at times, he can be special when it comes to accuracy.

Finally, I think that looking for elite traits especially physical ones isn't the best way to judge a QB at all. What were Eli's elite traits coming out?..no his accuracy, or arm strength, or foot speed.

This isn't all to say we should draft Rosen. I happen to also like Darnold and Barkley. I am interested to see what our scouts say about it.
Oh  
PaulN : 2/13/2018 3:22 pm : link
Telling this crew they need not be worried about Rosen is like talking to the fucking wall. Telling them that this is the job of the New York Football Giants will be of no use, they know better then all of us. Then if the Giants get it wrong or right they get to pound their chests and tell us all how right they were and how smart they are, "I told you so". "I said it", "I knew this all along". Don't waste time trying to take their rattles away, they will scream.
RE: Concussions for a QB..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/13/2018 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13830754 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
A RB or LB who gets their bell rung has the chance to walk it off. The QB doesn't get that leeway.



I'm not sure I follow here. They're treated the same, medically, regardless of position. If a doc sees symptoms, they're going to get sit down for further exam or just taken out. At least that's how it's supposed to work. Whether it's RB, LB or QB.

Yes..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/13/2018 3:25 pm : link
and when a RB or LB leave the game, you don't have the same dropoff or impact in the reserve.

Every offensive play, the QB touches the ball.

You don't follow that?
My point about the concussions  
Milton : 2/13/2018 3:28 pm : link
Was only that Rosen is no more likely to have his career cut short from concussions than any other player in the draft, which is to say: very, very, very unlikely. He is not one concussion away from giving up football, as some oddly suggest.

As for my feelings on concussions in general, if I could make one rule change in the NFL (other than having all penalties be half the distance to the goal), I would outlaw the three-point stance. There is nothing worse for the brain on the field of play than OL and DL firing into each other 50 or 60 times per game. Justin Pugh is the guy I fear will give up the game due to concussions. And I would say good for him.
Oh, I see what you were trying to say now.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/13/2018 3:33 pm : link
But it's something every team has to deal with. Every coach is scared to death of losing their QB. They can't protect the QB with rules any more than they already do, and it still happens across the league.

It's just the nature of the sport. Trying to chase health in a brutal sport is going to leave you in circles. The best players get hurt by the truckload every year.
Darnold's talent is undeniable...  
Milton : 2/13/2018 3:38 pm : link
But he surfs. You don't spend the second overall pick in the draft on a guy who is gonna be eaten by a shark.
RE: We salute  
adamg : 2/13/2018 3:54 pm : link
In comment 13830431 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
You?
that keeps coming into my head too... ugh
RE: Darnold's talent is undeniable...  
njm : 2/13/2018 4:25 pm : link
In comment 13831412 Milton said:
Quote:
But he surfs. You don't spend the second overall pick in the draft on a guy who is gonna be eaten by a shark.




ROSEN DON'T SURF!!
RE: None of these are the main issues with Rosen  
TMS : 2/14/2018 8:00 pm : link
In comment 13830472 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
You are thinking about putting a kid who thinks he is a social justice pioneer and who feels the need to be outspoken on issues of the day into the NY media market.

He will get eaten up alive.
NYC type of guy for obvious reasons with the looks of his support. The next Chuck Shummer. After a year of injuries and a golden parachute retirement.
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