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NFT: Is Hornacek Insane?

Pete44 : 2/13/2018 9:30 am
I watched part of the Knicks game last night in the hope to watch them lose, but to also see more of Mudiay and Frenchie in the same backcourt.

Instead, we got a ton of Jarrett Jack, Courtney Lee and Lance Thomas.

At times, the lineup was Jack, Hardaway, Lee or Thomas, Beasley and Kanter.

I don't care if Ben Simmons scores 50 points, no need to play Lance Thomas extra minutes.

I don't know if management has or has not told Hornacek that his job depends on the younger players or not, but if they not, they need too.

The worst case scenario is going to happen as the veterans are going to lead the Knicks to 7-9 more wins this season, which will keep us around 9 or 10 in the draft and we will have no idea if the younger players are keepers are not.

It is extremely frustrating!

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Fuck Hornacek  
adamg : 2/13/2018 9:33 am : link
and fuck Perry for letting him fuck up
I don't think we have to worry about extra wins  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 9:34 am : link
Jack and thomas are garbage..

I think hornacek is delusional thinking jack and thomas give them the best chance to win..

If jack is still starting after the all star break I don't think I will watch until next year..
Jack needs to be cut  
DennyInDenville : 2/13/2018 9:35 am : link
.
Not saying I agree with the reasoning,  
Keith : 2/13/2018 9:36 am : link
but he claims that the kids will be playing a ton after the all-star break. He said something about them needing to practice a little more together and once the 2nd half starts, we will see some changes.
RE: Fuck Hornacek  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 9:36 am : link
In comment 13830732 adamg said:
Quote:
and fuck Perry for letting him fuck up


I think he was told to play the young guys but hornacek is a moron, in Indiana Frank and mudiay played 30 minutes each then all of a sudden he goes back to jack last night..

Hornacek keeps saying he wants to develop and see the young guys and then he does the complete opposite
RE: Not saying I agree with the reasoning,  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 9:37 am : link
In comment 13830740 Keith said:
Quote:
but he claims that the kids will be playing a ton after the all-star break. He said something about them needing to practice a little more together and once the 2nd half starts, we will see some changes.


That is fine but don't go and play jack 20 minutes, for what reason?

And why is Thomas starting?
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 2/13/2018 9:37 am : link
He's trying to save his own ass. This season is shot. Just play the damn kids & see what you got.
RE: ...  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 9:42 am : link
In comment 13830743 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
He's trying to save his own ass. This season is shot. Just play the damn kids & see what you got.


How? He is playing worse players..

I just think he is horrible
RE: Jack needs to be cut  
Tuckrule : 2/13/2018 9:45 am : link
In comment 13830738 DennyInDenville said:
Quote:
.


That’s stupid. Need a vet presence to teach and mentor. Min should be limited
Yes,I want to see the kids get more minutes.  
TheMick7 : 2/13/2018 9:47 am : link
Yes,I want to see Hornacek get fired since every game it's like he's throwing darts at a dart board when it comes to substitutions. But,let's let him coach until the end of the year since we're in tank mode & Hornacek finds new ways to lose game in,game out!
RE: Not saying I agree with the reasoning,  
Beezer : 2/13/2018 9:47 am : link
In comment 13830740 Keith said:
Quote:
but he claims that the kids will be playing a ton after the all-star break. He said something about them needing to practice a little more together and once the 2nd half starts, we will see some changes.


He's said a lot.

I'll believe it when I am watching it happen.
Last Night  
TyreeHelmet : 2/13/2018 9:51 am : link
Dotson and Burke should have played a lot more. I can't argue that Frank should have though. Frank played 21 minutes with zero points/ assists/ steals/ blocks and only 2 rebounds. That is a pathetic game.

And while you would hope he played less of Thomas, Lee and Hardaway- those guys are signed here for the next 2-3 years.

The Hardaway contract is such a killer. I thought he had made nice improvements with Atlanta with shot selection and defense, but they haven't stuck. He's making more than 2x what Lou Williams just got and isn't anywhere close to being as good.
RE: Last Night  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 9:55 am : link
In comment 13830762 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
Dotson and Burke should have played a lot more. I can't argue that Frank should have though. Frank played 21 minutes with zero points/ assists/ steals/ blocks and only 2 rebounds. That is a pathetic game.

And while you would hope he played less of Thomas, Lee and Hardaway- those guys are signed here for the next 2-3 years.

The Hardaway contract is such a killer. I thought he had made nice improvements with Atlanta with shot selection and defense, but they haven't stuck. He's making more than 2x what Lou Williams just got and isn't anywhere close to being as good.


Thomas is done after next year

Lee has 2 years..

Hardaway needs to go back to what he was doing earlier this year..

Also Knicks will have plenty of cap space after next year
Thomas  
Beezer : 2/13/2018 9:58 am : link
is my constant sticking point for this team.

I really have never understood.

Nice guy. Tries hard.

Just ... nope.
didn't see this posted last week...  
Mike in St. Louis : 2/13/2018 10:05 am : link
one man's opinions on the Willy and Mudiay trades...fair warning though, it's from Bleacher Report...

"The basics of Perry's plan—which he's drawn up alongside team president Steve Mills—are simple: Enter summer 2019 with a clean cap so the Knicks can reel in a big fish from a group of free agents that could include, among others, Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler."

* * *

"But in Perry's view, there's a proper way to go about luring stars. He touched on that Friday.

"I think that in terms of players and free agents looking to the Knicks ... they'll see how this team is coming together in terms of playing hard, trying to support one another," he said. "They sense it. They see where the culture is headed, where we're going. And I think there will be players that will want to be a part of that. Players want to be a part of teams. They want to be a part of families where they're being supported and cared for and developed and all of those things.""

* * *

""It wasn't going to be an overnight turnaround from the beginning," Perry said. "We're going to continue to make moves that are very prudent not only from a talent perspective but [also for] managing the salary cap. We have a plan in place to get there."

We know what that plan is. Will it succeed? Well, we'll have to wait about 16 months, until June 2019, to see."

Link - ( New Window )
if KP signs a max  
Enzo : 2/13/2018 10:14 am : link
extension when he's available I don't see how they have significant cap space in 2019. Obviously they can get cute about it and wait a year to do it, but that's a HUGE risk.
should be:  
Enzo : 2/13/2018 10:14 am : link
when he's able
Cap Space 2019  
TyreeHelmet : 2/13/2018 10:14 am : link
In the summer of 2019, it's going to be difficult for the Knicks to have cap space. And this is the offseason with Kawhi/ Kyrie/ Kemba/ Klay and many more potentially available. It's the year you want cap space.

They already have 56 million committed to Lee/ Noah/ Hardaway/ Nkitilina. This doesn't account for 2018 or 2019 draft pick which will probably be around 10 mill for both players. You also need to fill out the rest of the roster and pay Kanter if you want to resign him. And then the biggie- KP's max contract which will be about 27 mill for the 2019-2020 season. That brings you to over 100 mill without accounting for any other FA signings and this is being conservative.

They are most likely going to be capped in the 2019 offseason. Now they can always move contracts but there is a cost in doing that.

That was always the big problem with the Hardaway contract. It not only eats in to the 2019 cap space but 2020 too. With the Noah contract on the books, the Knicks were in no position to sign Hardaway to that deal.
Why  
DanMetroMan : 2/13/2018 10:16 am : link
do you guys think Jimmy Butler is so underrated coverage wise? The numbers absolutely love the guy.
RE: Why  
TyreeHelmet : 2/13/2018 10:21 am : link
In comment 13830812 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
do you guys think Jimmy Butler is so underrated coverage wise? The numbers absolutely love the guy.


Style of play. Doesn't really make highlight reel dunks and the media doesn't really praise perimeter defense. The guy is a terrific player though. In the MVP race...
There is no reason to do a max for kp this offseason  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 10:22 am : link
You tell him we need as much flexibility as we can get then we take care of you...

Lance is non guaranteed, that is 7 million off right there..

Lee will most likely be traded this offseason...

Noah can be stretched if someone is coming, that is another 10..

You are now down to 39 with 105 million cap..

Knicks have plenty of flexibility
RE: Why  
Enzo : 2/13/2018 10:24 am : link
In comment 13830812 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
do you guys think Jimmy Butler is so underrated coverage wise? The numbers absolutely love the guy.

maybe he was overshadowed for a while by the Derrick Rose sideshow and the Thibs/front office drama....and then once it finally became his team, they simply weren't any good.
RE: didn't see this posted last week...  
DanMetroMan : 2/13/2018 10:24 am : link
In comment 13830791 Mike in St. Louis said:
Quote:
one man's opinions on the Willy and Mudiay trades...fair warning though, it's from Bleacher Report...

"The basics of Perry's plan—which he's drawn up alongside team president Steve Mills—are simple: Enter summer 2019 with a clean cap so the Knicks can reel in a big fish from a group of free agents that could include, among others, Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler."

* * *

"But in Perry's view, there's a proper way to go about luring stars. He touched on that Friday.

"I think that in terms of players and free agents looking to the Knicks ... they'll see how this team is coming together in terms of playing hard, trying to support one another," he said. "They sense it. They see where the culture is headed, where we're going. And I think there will be players that will want to be a part of that. Players want to be a part of teams. They want to be a part of families where they're being supported and cared for and developed and all of those things.""

* * *

""It wasn't going to be an overnight turnaround from the beginning," Perry said. "We're going to continue to make moves that are very prudent not only from a talent perspective but [also for] managing the salary cap. We have a plan in place to get there."

We know what that plan is. Will it succeed? Well, we'll have to wait about 16 months, until June 2019, to see." Link - ( New Window )


Weitzman is one of the best writers covering the Knicks Bleacher Report or not.
RE: There is no reason to do a max for kp this offseason  
Enzo : 2/13/2018 10:27 am : link
In comment 13830818 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
.

no reason? Really? It's a huge risk letting him play 2019/2020 on the qualifying offer.
RE: RE: There is no reason to do a max for kp this offseason  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 10:29 am : link
In comment 13830832 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13830818 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


.


no reason? Really? It's a huge risk letting him play 2019/2020 on the qualifying offer.


He would be signed after next year, he is not playing on the qualifying offer...

RE: didn't see this posted last week...  
Keith : 2/13/2018 10:31 am : link
In comment 13830791 Mike in St. Louis said:
Quote:
one man's opinions on the Willy and Mudiay trades...fair warning though, it's from Bleacher Report...

"The basics of Perry's plan—which he's drawn up alongside team president Steve Mills—are simple: Enter summer 2019 with a clean cap so the Knicks can reel in a big fish from a group of free agents that could include, among others, Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Kyrie Irving and Jimmy Butler."

* * *

"But in Perry's view, there's a proper way to go about luring stars. He touched on that Friday.

"I think that in terms of players and free agents looking to the Knicks ... they'll see how this team is coming together in terms of playing hard, trying to support one another," he said. "They sense it. They see where the culture is headed, where we're going. And I think there will be players that will want to be a part of that. Players want to be a part of teams. They want to be a part of families where they're being supported and cared for and developed and all of those things.""

* * *

""It wasn't going to be an overnight turnaround from the beginning," Perry said. "We're going to continue to make moves that are very prudent not only from a talent perspective but [also for] managing the salary cap. We have a plan in place to get there."

We know what that plan is. Will it succeed? Well, we'll have to wait about 16 months, until June 2019, to see." Link - ( New Window )


I like that they have a plan, that's a start. Seems as though the plan was never to tank in any situation. This season has fallen apart at the seams so there is no other option, but it sounds like they will not be tanking next season. They are going to try and build a team to win next year to improve the culture and the optics for FA's.
RE: There is no reason to do a max for kp this offseason  
TyreeHelmet : 2/13/2018 10:32 am : link
In comment 13830818 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
You tell him we need as much flexibility as we can get then we take care of you...

Lance is non guaranteed, that is 7 million off right there..

Lee will most likely be traded this offseason...

Noah can be stretched if someone is coming, that is another 10..

You are now down to 39 with 105 million cap..

Knicks have plenty of flexibility


You are missing some key points here. It won't be easy to trade Lee without taking money back. Definitely the most attainable out of the 3 big contracts though.

You are going to ask Porzingis to play on a qualifying offer that will make him a unrestricted free agent in 2020? Thats insanely risky and there is no way he is agreeing to take a 20 million discount year 1 and risk jeopardizing a max contract with his injury history. Not happening.

You also have to account for other players, draft picks, cap holds. They have to fill out a roster next year and the Knicks have shown zero ability to have financial restraint with free agents.
Free agency is after next year  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 10:35 am : link
Who said anything about kp playing on the qualifying offer?

He plays next year on his 4th year and then he is signed next off-season, no qualifying offer..

He simply waits until free agents are signed, same exact thing spurs did with laehi..

RE: RE: RE: There is no reason to do a max for kp this offseason  
Enzo : 2/13/2018 10:35 am : link
In comment 13830834 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13830832 Enzo said:


Quote:


In comment 13830818 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


.


no reason? Really? It's a huge risk letting him play 2019/2020 on the qualifying offer.



He would be signed after next year, he is not playing on the qualifying offer...

if you sign him after next year you don't gain any flexibility. WTF?
And I never took out Lee's 12 million  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 10:36 am : link
I took out lance and noah contract..
RE: RE: RE: RE: There is no reason to do a max for kp this offseason  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 10:38 am : link
In comment 13830848 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13830834 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 13830832 Enzo said:


Quote:


In comment 13830818 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


.


no reason? Really? It's a huge risk letting him play 2019/2020 on the qualifying offer.



He would be signed after next year, he is not playing on the qualifying offer...



if you sign him after next year you don't gain any flexibility. WTF?


The year kawhi and kyrie are free agents is after next year, of course they gain flexibility
The only thing on the books is his cap hold  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 10:39 am : link
They sign 2 max and then resign kp..really not that hard to understand
I don't love Horn  
djm : 2/13/2018 10:46 am : link
but you guys tend to overstate the minutes thing with Jack. Mudiay likely didn't play 25+ last night because it was back to back and he hasn't had much practice time here with the club.

Some of you get the vapors over 2-3-4 minutes of play. Frank is getting plenty of time here in his rookie year. Mudiay will get plenty as well. Burke doesn't seem to be getting much, but it's possible that he fucking sucks...i know that's hard to accept...but it's a probably conclusion.

In any case, the Knicks are terrible across the board. Horn isn't the best coach out there but I don't think he's this terrible clueless entity some of you insist on parroting around here. He does seem to have the respect of the players and he seems like a good communicator. Ok maybe he should play guys like Burke more minutes and maybe Thomas doesn't belong on an NBA roster let alone the starting lineup, but he does play hard and focuses on defense, something this team needs to emulate.

I'm sure I will get shit on for that post. Have at it.
No you're right  
adamg : 2/13/2018 10:49 am : link
Hornacek is really good.
RE: And I never took out Lee's 12 million  
TyreeHelmet : 2/13/2018 10:49 am : link
In comment 13830850 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
I took out lance and noah contract..


I never accounted for Lance Thomas- only guaranteed for 1 mill the last year.

Fair point about KP doing a Kawhi but you are still risking him accepting that qualifying offer and becoming an unrestricted FA. And I’m guessing KP wants that extension this summer with the knee injury.

Bottom line is that it’s going to be hard to create 1 max spot in cap space in 2019. Creating 2 spots would be incredibly hard and very costly.
No it's really not hard at all  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 10:54 am : link
Seeing as they could easily get rid of 17 million with 2 moves..

And if you talk to kp and tell him the plan and then say you are going to take care of him he is not going to demand a contract ..

Same arguments every day for the past 3 months  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 2/13/2018 10:55 am : link
-Why Lance?
-Why Jack?
-Bad rotations
-Horrible substitutions
-Bad defense
-Oh, great another team going off behind the arc
-We suck at shooting the 3
-Are we actually running plays?
-Where are the young guys?

Every. Flipping. Day. It’s getting old. I might just start checking out the box scores and save myself 2 and half hours every game.
RE: The only thing on the books is his cap hold  
Enzo : 2/13/2018 10:55 am : link
In comment 13830857 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
They sign 2 max and then resign kp..really not that hard to understand

you're right but it still comes with risk. He's then only one year away from unrestricted free agency. The Spurs had the organizational credibility to sell a plan like this to Kawhi. The Knicks are a clownshow until proven otherwise.
I just don't trust Hornacek to develop players  
bceagle05 : 2/13/2018 10:59 am : link
the way Brett Brown or Kenny Atkinson develop players. That's what the Knicks need right now - a developer, not a master strategist (though Hornacek is neither). They need to find a guy like that this summer.

Next year's team will include most - if not all - of the following players: KP, Hardaway, Frank, a top 10 pick, Mudiay, Burke, Baker, Dotson, and two second round picks.

There's some legit talent there, and we need someone to maximize it.

RE: No it's really not hard at all  
TyreeHelmet : 2/13/2018 11:01 am : link
In comment 13830878 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Seeing as they could easily get rid of 17 million with 2 moves..

And if you talk to kp and tell him the plan and then say you are going to take care of him he is not going to demand a contract ..


Im sure that conversation with KP will go over great...

And you are going to move 50 million in salary between Lee/ Hardaway/ Noah and not take any money back? That's going to cost you 3 future 1st round picks and probably more...
RE: No you're right  
djm : 2/13/2018 11:03 am : link
In comment 13830869 adamg said:
Quote:
Hornacek is really good.


Yup that's exactly what I said.

I said he was ordinary...maybe even a little worse but he's not clueless and complaints about a difference of 3-4-5 minutes doesn't change that. He could just be easing guys like Frank and Mudiay along. Can't speak to Burke but after his first 2 games here he looks like shit, in limited playing time... one thing is certain, Burke can't play D. Surprise.
I do want to replace Horn  
djm : 2/13/2018 11:05 am : link
I just want to make replace him with a clear upgrade. Not a another lateral move please. We fire one guy and replace him with another guy...rinse...repeat..over and over and over again.

The bad thing with firing a guy for shits and giggles is that the next guy immediately comes in with a 2 year grace period. So if the next guy sucks we just lost 2 more years.

You want to fire Horn be my guest, but you better bring in an upgrade or we just lost another 2-3 years.
Free Agents  
Pete44 : 2/13/2018 11:13 am : link
We can never count on free agents coming to the Knicks, it has yet to work out. I hate to say this but as many NBA guys have said, the Knicks are not a top NBA destination. Maybe, that changes in the future, but it has not been since Checketts/Riley/Grunfeld.

The best plan remains, develop the young guys, we have now, hope to get two blue chip prospects in the 2 upcoming drafts to play along KP and maybe Frenchie and Hardaway. Once, that happens the culture may improve and maybe a FA comes here.
What NBA players said they wouldn't come to the Knicks?  
Keith : 2/13/2018 11:16 am : link
Draymond Green? Eff him, nobody cares what he says. After the Dolan/Oakley situation became public, it was the hot topic...until Kyrie actually tried to get to NY. Plenty of players will want to play in NY. NY is a great city to play ball in. Your initial point is correct, we have a terrible history of signing FA's, but plenty of players will want to play in NY if we could show competence.
RE: RE: No it's really not hard at all  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 11:16 am : link
In comment 13830891 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13830878 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


Seeing as they could easily get rid of 17 million with 2 moves..

And if you talk to kp and tell him the plan and then say you are going to take care of him he is not going to demand a contract ..




Im sure that conversation with KP will go over great...

And you are going to move 50 million in salary between Lee/ Hardaway/ Noah and not take any money back? That's going to cost you 3 future 1st round picks and probably more...


Noah can be stretched if a guy agrees to come, takes off 10 million..

If kp says no money now after you explain to him you need the fle,mobility to go out and add 2 stars I would be shocked, you just promise him that you will max him out..

Plenty of superstars have done this
RE: Free Agents  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 11:18 am : link
In comment 13830918 Pete44 said:
Quote:
We can never count on free agents coming to the Knicks, it has yet to work out. I hate to say this but as many NBA guys have said, the Knicks are not a top NBA destination. Maybe, that changes in the future, but it has not been since Checketts/Riley/Grunfeld.

The best plan remains, develop the young guys, we have now, hope to get two blue chip prospects in the 2 upcoming drafts to play along KP and maybe Frenchie and Hardaway. Once, that happens the culture may improve and maybe a FA comes here.


You have to do both, you have to hit on draft picks and hit in free agency..

If kp comes back healthy Knicks will be appealing..

The reason the 2010 plan was flawed was because they had no one on the roster to attract a free agent
RE: What NBA players said they wouldn't come to the Knicks?  
Pete44 : 2/13/2018 11:24 am : link
In comment 13830929 Keith said:
Quote:
Draymond Green? Eff him, nobody cares what he says. After the Dolan/Oakley situation became public, it was the hot topic...until Kyrie actually tried to get to NY. Plenty of players will want to play in NY. NY is a great city to play ball in. Your initial point is correct, we have a terrible history of signing FA's, but plenty of players will want to play in NY if we could show competence.


I'm saying we need to make this a more attraction destination or it will be 2010 all over again. The Knicks have to have KP healthy and other young players. In addition, the culture of ineptitude and chaos has to end. Even the Noah situation is not a good optically for the Knicks.

I think player would love to play for the Knicks, but they won't set themselves up to fail for be the media scapegoat. (See Lebron James). If we are going to think back fondly on Melo, at least he embraced it as flawed of a player he was.
Pete,  
Keith : 2/13/2018 11:25 am : link
Ok, I understand you now. I agree completely.
RE: RE: Free Agents  
Pete44 : 2/13/2018 11:27 am : link
In comment 13830938 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13830918 Pete44 said:


Quote:


We can never count on free agents coming to the Knicks, it has yet to work out. I hate to say this but as many NBA guys have said, the Knicks are not a top NBA destination. Maybe, that changes in the future, but it has not been since Checketts/Riley/Grunfeld.

The best plan remains, develop the young guys, we have now, hope to get two blue chip prospects in the 2 upcoming drafts to play along KP and maybe Frenchie and Hardaway. Once, that happens the culture may improve and maybe a FA comes here.



You have to do both, you have to hit on draft picks and hit in free agency..

If kp comes back healthy Knicks will be appealing..

The reason the 2010 plan was flawed was because they had no one on the roster to attract a free agent


I think hitting it on the draft, precedes getting a free agent here. Also, the culture of chaos and ineptitude has to change.

One of the reasons that I hate Isola is that his tweets and constant bashing of the Knicks does not help. The players read social media all the time and his stuff sticks.
Pete agreed 100 oercent  
nygiants16 : 2/13/2018 11:32 am : link
You mention isola everyone in New York radio is ripping the knicks
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