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Leadership discussion

Thegratefulhead : 2/13/2018 2:29 pm
I heard this discussion on the radio but care little for those having it. Do you prefer a HC that leads through fear? How about love and respect? Who is your favorite leader in film? In history? Favorite HC? Can team win and have fun or must it be serious? Patriots vs Seahawks team culture?

I liked Bill Parcells style, my favorite HC. He loved his guys and they loved him and each other. I like "Dick" Winters(Easy Company) as portrayed in Band of Brothers and his actual leadership in WWII. The Patriots are the model for professional sports excellence but I prefer the Seahawk culture. I think the Patriot success is more attributed the brilliance of Belichick and the presence of the GOAT(Brady) rather than the serious no fun zone. What's your take?
Its funny, the leader I would rally to versus my ideal for a football  
BLUATHRT : 2/13/2018 2:33 pm : link
coach, or what I'd idolize as a leader are far different. For me, a guy like Dick Vermeil or Tony Dungy would inspire me. A guy I knew was personally invested in me as a person every day. The guy I think I see as the best leader, or think could universally translate team to team is a style like Coughlin's. Disciplinarian, with the personal aspect thrown into the mix.
Growing up  
JOrthman : 2/13/2018 2:38 pm : link
I admired the guys like Patton and MacArthur, but as I got older I grew more to appreciate Eisenhower.
players make too much money now  
UConn4523 : 2/13/2018 2:43 pm : link
to be motivated by fear. Displaying intelligence, having respect, and finding ways to relate to players are all much better qualities.
Not going to be hard to believe, but... Tom Coughlin  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2018 2:44 pm : link
Doing things the right way, strong preparation, great motivational skills, caring and good man whose actions off the field show he practices what he preaches.

That's who I view as an ideal leader.
RE: Not going to be hard to believe, but... Tom Coughlin  
Thegratefulhead : 2/13/2018 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13831327 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Doing things the right way, strong preparation, great motivational skills, caring and good man whose actions off the field show he practices what he preaches.

That's who I view as an ideal leader.
I like TC a lot. His pre-superbowl speech where he told his payers he loved them and how much he wanted that win for them is amazing.
I think players respect authenticity.  
Section331 : 2/13/2018 2:47 pm : link
You can't fake anything and try to be something you are not. I think coaching by fear won't last too long, and I disagree that Parcells coached that way. He could be a hardass, but he also had a great sense of humor, and I think most players generally liked him.

Whatever works. Shurmer doesn't seem to be a hardass, and he doesn't need to be. Communicate effectively, and while players may not like all of your decisions, but they'll respect it.
Success follows Coughlin everywhere he's gone  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2018 2:51 pm : link
The Player

-Went to Syracuse, played alongside Larry Csonka and Floyd Little. In 1967 set the school's all time single season pass recieving record.

Early Coaching Highlights

-Was Doug Flutie's QB Coach at BC

-Coached the WR's in Philly and Green Bay before coming to New York under Bill Parcells.

-Won a Superbowl as an Assistant Coach in 1990

Head Coach

-Went back to BC and completely turned the program around, capping it off by beating an undeafeated Notre Dame (number one in the country) 41-39 in 1993.

-Became the first ever coach in Jacksonville, making them the the most successful expansion team ever. Took the team to the AFC Championship in only their second season in existence.

-Named NFL Coach Of The Year in 1996.

-Took them to another AFC Championship in 1999 with a 14-2 record.

-Turned the Giants from complete country club mentality in the lockerroom into a business/professional lockerroom. Really took a good look at himself in the mirror and made real change to show his players he cared about them.

-Won the Superbowl in only his 4th year with the team, then kept the run going starting the next season with an 11-1 record.

-3 Superbowl Rings, 2 as a head coach, 3 Championship appearances as a head coach, 1 Coach Of The Year Award.

The Man

-Kept up with his Jay Fund that was started in Jacksonville, even after leaving, to honor one of his former players.

-Countless charitable trips for the armed forces, including going overseas.


And none of this is to mention what he has done so far with the Jags.
There needs  
Pascal4554 : 2/13/2018 2:52 pm : link
to be a setting of standards. The coach can be friendly, but there needs to be a setting of standards and a certain level of discipline for everyone. I prefer someone who is consistent, disciplined, and even keel. Coughlin was too volatile emotionally for my taste at least from what I saw on the sideline, but he certainly got the job done and the players loved him.

Also, a leader needs to be self-aware enough to understand their own strengths and weaknesses and not try to be something they are not. If they are friendly and fun, great, if they are a hard ass no nonsense person, great, but they need to understand their weaknesses and compensate accordingly by hiring folks with the skill sets they lack. All different types of personalities can be successful as leaders. Personally, I'm skeptical of leaders who rely too much on charisma.
If that's not a HOF resume, I don't know what is.  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2018 2:52 pm : link
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RE: If that's not a HOF resume, I don't know what is.  
BrettNYG10 : 2/13/2018 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13831340 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


I think both Eli and TC get in, but I think TC is closer to a shoo-in than Eli.
Fear last longer than Love  
Peppers : 2/13/2018 3:15 pm : link
-Sonny
Key elements  
Reale01 : 2/13/2018 3:18 pm : link
Must have:
1 Have a good plan/goals/rules/approach
2 Communicate it clearly
3 Create a good environment
4 Give players what they need to be successful
5 Accountability and Oversight Corrections/Improvements
6 Ability to motivate/inspire when needed

So many other things go into it with respect to specific style and method, but I think the elements above do not change. I believe that BM failed on all counts his 2nd year. I think TC fell short on the last two in his later years. BB excels in all of these. I think Shurmer will be fine with the first four, the last two remain to be seen.

Tom Coughlin had a 531 winning percentage  
arniefez : 2/13/2018 3:32 pm : link
170 wins. 10 out of 20 years he coached in the NFL his teams won 8 games or less. His last 4 years in Jacksonville he went 25-39. His last 3 years with the Giants he went 19-29. 15 out of his 20 years his teams didn't win a single playoff game.

Tony Dungy was the last coach elected his winning percentage was 668 with 148 wins.

George Seifert 11 years won 2 Super Bowls with a 648 winning percentage and 176 wins. Not in the HOF. I don't think he deserves to be.

Mike Shanahan 20 years won 2 Super Bowls with 552 winning percentage and 170 wins. Not in the HOF. I don't think he deserves to be.

Jimmy Johnson 9 years won 2 Super Bowls with 556 winning percentage and 80 wins. Not in the HOF. The pissing match the Jerry probably cost him the HOF because if stayed that team wins more Super Bowls. They won with Switzer which is incredible.

Tom Flores 12 years won 2 Super Bowls with a 527 winning percentage and 97 wins. Not in the HOF. I don't think he deserves to be.

The only coach in the HOF with a lower winning percentage than Coughlin is Webb Ewbank. Who was elected for winning the 2 most famous championship games in football history. The eagles beating Belichick doesn't help Coughlin's case.

If Coughlin gets elected it will be because of the 2 Super Bowl wins and the NFL good old boys network. The other 18 years of his career aren't close to a HOF resume.
A leader  
old man : 2/13/2018 3:35 pm : link
has to get people to buy into what they do, that is, respect for their position, whether it be a Private in the Army, a corporate middle manager or even an assembly line worker, or a second string WR; and respect for their employer.
Then a leader must get them to buy into their vision on how to accomplish success together and individually.
A leader needs to find the right buttons to push to motivate and keep people energized by being an example themselves.
My daughter told me: You manage people, the rest takes care of itself.
Whether you are a Parcells, Coughlin or Belichick, or an oldman,if you can't do the above, you can't lead.
As to the 'how', if it works for you it works.
RE: Tom Coughlin had a 531 winning percentage  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2018 3:39 pm : link
In comment 13831401 arniefez said:
Quote:
170 wins. 10 out of 20 years he coached in the NFL his teams won 8 games or less. His last 4 years in Jacksonville he went 25-39. His last 3 years with the Giants he went 19-29. 15 out of his 20 years his teams didn't win a single playoff game.

Tony Dungy was the last coach elected his winning percentage was 668 with 148 wins.

George Seifert 11 years won 2 Super Bowls with a 648 winning percentage and 176 wins. Not in the HOF. I don't think he deserves to be.

Mike Shanahan 20 years won 2 Super Bowls with 552 winning percentage and 170 wins. Not in the HOF. I don't think he deserves to be.

Jimmy Johnson 9 years won 2 Super Bowls with 556 winning percentage and 80 wins. Not in the HOF. The pissing match the Jerry probably cost him the HOF because if stayed that team wins more Super Bowls. They won with Switzer which is incredible.

Tom Flores 12 years won 2 Super Bowls with a 527 winning percentage and 97 wins. Not in the HOF. I don't think he deserves to be.

The only coach in the HOF with a lower winning percentage than Coughlin is Webb Ewbank. Who was elected for winning the 2 most famous championship games in football history. The eagles beating Belichick doesn't help Coughlin's case.

If Coughlin gets elected it will be because of the 2 Super Bowl wins and the NFL good old boys network. The other 18 years of his career aren't close to a HOF resume.


What a load of sh-t. Paralysis by analysis, like most things on this site these days.
Can't see the forest for the trees.  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2018 3:42 pm : link
.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 2/13/2018 3:42 pm : link
Coughlin's work with JAX puts him over the top, IMO.
arniefez  
NYG27 : 2/13/2018 3:52 pm : link
You left out a few key items from Tom Coughlin's resume.

He took an expansion team in 1995 to two AFC Championship games in their first 5 years of existence.

He had two of the biggest upsets in Superbowl History, including the 18-0 Pats run that most "experts" in the media had all but locked up the Pats winning that SB.

Plus in his latest chapter, he took over the management of the Jacksonville Jaguars who had gone 22-74 in the prior 6 seasons. Then under Coughlin's leadership and guidance, Coughlin and Doug Marrone win double digit games and take the Jaguars to the AFC Championship game.

Coughlin already had a HOF career as a coach, if he continues the Jaguars stellar run they had this year, it's only the final nail to guarantee his HOF selection.
Also forgotten....  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2018 3:53 pm : link
11-0 on the road in 2007.
I wonder how Matt Dodge feels about Coughlin  
Go Terps : 2/13/2018 3:58 pm : link
.
RE: Also forgotten....  
NYG27 : 2/13/2018 4:01 pm : link
Britt in VA said:
Quote:
11-0 on the road in 2007.


Britt, good point about the NFL record of 11 straight road wins in that Superbowl season.

Although they weren't 11-0 on the road in 2007. They lost the first game of the season @ Dallas and finished 11-1 on the road in 2007.
The early Jacksonville stuff is well known to  
arniefez : 2/13/2018 4:17 pm : link
NFL people. Dom Capers and Carolina were in the championship game in year 2 too. The NFL made it way too easy for Jacksonville & Carolina when they entered the league. Ask the people in Cleveland what it was like for the Browns when they changed the rules next time there was expansion.

To his credit Coughlin took that advantage to build his team but then ran it into the ground. Completely mismanaging the salary cap after losing to Jeff Fisher 3 times in one year when had the best team in the NFL. As far as last years Jacksonville team goes. Other people built that team and other people coached that team. I'm sure his professionalism and attention to detail was a very positive part of their 2017 but it has nothing to do with his coaching record. His coaching record isn't a HOF record. But the 2 Super Bowls might be enough. We'll see in about 4 years.
Coach  
bc4life : 2/13/2018 6:08 pm : link
according to who you are. Nothing else will work.


It's also about followership, probably more important than leadership.
Britt in VA  
arniefez : 2/13/2018 7:59 pm : link
Indisputable fact. 100% accurate. No Giants colored glasses allowed.

Tom Coughlin 20 years with a 531 winning percentage 170 wins. 10 out of 20 years he coached in the NFL his teams won 8 games or less. His last 4 years in Jacksonville he went 25-39. His last 3 years with the Giants he went 19-29. 15 out of his 20 years his teams didn't win a single playoff game.

Tony Dungy was the last coach elected his winning percentage was 668 with 148 wins.

George Seifert 11 years won 2 Super Bowls with a 648 winning percentage and 176 wins. Not in the HOF.

Mike Shanahan 20 years won 2 Super Bowls with 552 winning percentage and 170 wins. Not in the HOF.

Jimmy Johnson 9 years won 2 Super Bowls with 556 winning percentage and 80 wins. Not in the HOF. .

Tom Flores 12 years won 2 Super Bowls with a 527 winning percentage and 97 wins. Not in the HOF.

The only coach in the HOF with a lower winning percentage than Coughlin is Webb Ewbank. Who was elected for winning the 2 most famous championship games in football history.

We'll see when he's eligible.
And none of those dudes had success with a second team....  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2018 9:01 pm : link
like Coughlin did.

Indisputable. Doesn't matter what "advantages" he may have had. You play the hand you're dealt, and he played it well.

Cleveland? Who gives a f-ck what Cleveland does. They've had a top five pick in like 20 drafts, where did that get them? They're still Cleveland.

Coughlin started Jacksonville and took them to two AFC Championships. They tanked, and he got fired. They've toiled in mediocrity ever since. He returns and they're back in the Championship game one year later. Coincidence? All three AFC Championships that Jacksonville has appeared in, Coughlin was employed by the team.

Fact.
RE: Tom Coughlin had a 531 winning percentage  
NikkiMac : 2/14/2018 6:02 am : link
In comment 13831401 arniefez said:
Quote:
170 wins. 10 out of 20 years he coached in the NFL his teams won 8 games or less. His last 4 years in Jacksonville he went 25-39. His last 3 years with the Giants he went 19-29. 15 out of his 20 years his teams didn't win a single playoff game.

Tony Dungy was the last coach elected his winning percentage was 668 with 148 wins.

George Seifert 11 years won 2 Super Bowls with a 648 winning percentage and 176 wins. Not in the HOF. I don't think he deserves to be.

Mike Shanahan 20 years won 2 Super Bowls with 552 winning percentage and 170 wins. Not in the HOF. I don't think he deserves to be.

Jimmy Johnson 9 years won 2 Super Bowls with 556 winning percentage and 80 wins. Not in the HOF. The pissing match the Jerry probably cost him the HOF because if stayed that team wins more Super Bowls. They won with Switzer which is incredible.

Tom Flores 12 years won 2 Super Bowls with a 527 winning percentage and 97 wins. Not in the HOF. I don't think he deserves to be.

The only coach in the HOF with a lower winning percentage than Coughlin is Webb Ewbank. Who was elected for winning the 2 most famous championship games in football history. The eagles beating Belichick doesn't help Coughlin's case.

If Coughlin gets elected it will be because of the 2 Super Bowl wins and the NFL good old boys network. The other 18 years of his career aren't close to a HOF resume.


And his work in Jacksonville was partially due to the NFL giving too much to the expansion teams which they admitted years later so to me his record is tainted there also sorry.... To me Eli in HOF is no brainer guy is going to retire as the 6th best passer in history 2 mvp and 2 SB wins and the Manning name this Eli HOF stuff is laughable
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/14/2018 8:57 am : link
Quote:
And his work in Jacksonville was partially due to the NFL giving too much to the expansion teams which they admitted years later so to me his record is tainted there also sorry


It was still an expansion team!! Carolina and Jax had early success, but the way they were set-up there was going to be a natural decline and they were both led by a couple of good coaches.

Britt - you have to understand that arniefez is Randal Graves. A poster who takes delight in shitting on the front office and the team whenever possible, and an even bigger fuckstick on baseball threads.

Makes you wonder why the fuck a guy like that is a fan or spends time on a fan site since he appears to hate all things giants related.
Derailed  
Thegratefulhead : 2/14/2018 9:07 am : link
This was a decent thread until the people stalking Britt showed up. I disagree with Britt on a number of things but do not stalk him all over the board. Can't we ever have a discussion without it turning into an argument about TC or Eli? Holy shit fuck balls.
RE: Derailed  
Britt in VA : 2/14/2018 9:11 am : link
In comment 13831913 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
This was a decent thread until the people stalking Britt showed up. I disagree with Britt on a number of things but do not stalk him all over the board. Can't we ever have a discussion without it turning into an argument about TC or Eli? Holy shit fuck balls.


Thank you for acknowledging that I don't start a lot of these arguments.
In the spirit of the thread....  
Britt in VA : 2/14/2018 9:21 am : link
I know that Coughlin admired Coach John Wooden as a leader very much. He even called him a "national treasure".
Wooden  
Thegratefulhead : 2/14/2018 11:24 am : link
I have always meant to read his book. Have you read it? Anyone that has willing to chime in? Curious.
I haven't, but like you I have meant to....  
Britt in VA : 2/14/2018 11:34 am : link
.
This is what Coughlin had to say about Wooden after he passed....  
Britt in VA : 2/14/2018 11:36 am : link
Quote:
"There is a great sense of emptiness today," wrote Coughlin. "We all knew this day was coming, and there was nobody more prepared for it than Coach Wooden because of his devout faith in God and his love for his late wife Nell and the knowledge that he would one day be together with her again. He was a man at peace.

"Still, that sense of emptiness comes from knowing we have lost a national treasure. I was very blessed and fortunate to have had a chance to visit with Coach Wooden a couple years ago just after the league meetings in California. My wife Judy had been encouraging me for years to make a point of going to see Coach Wooden, and with the help of mutual friends, I was able to.

"I spent three hours talking, but mostly listening, to Coach Wooden. It seemed like five minutes. What I have always appreciated about his philosophy is its simplicity and that it transcended sports. He wasn't just a basketball coach, he was and is a life coach, and for that, we can all be thankful. He was the best living example of his teachings about teamwork, preparedness and humility."


Link - ( New Window )
I have mixed feelings on Coughlin  
Go Terps : 2/14/2018 11:48 am : link
I thought the idea that he was a disciplinarian was false, given what we know about how Plax, Shockey, and Beckham were (not) handled probably in large part because they were star players. Meanwhile if you were a rookie Kiwanuka or Dodge he had no issues publicly humiliating you at a low moment in your career and maybe even your life. I thought those were bad moments for him, and I suspect he had quite a few others behind the scenes.

But that said, there is no question that he was an incredibly hard worker and a really good football coach. It's amazing that he was the head coach for three of the great upsets we've ever seen by three different teams:

- BC over #1 Notre Dame in '93 (vengeance for Holtz running a fake punt up 37-0 in the third quarter the year before)
- Jacksonville over Denver in '96
- Super Bowl XLII
RE: I have mixed feelings on Coughlin  
Sean : 2/14/2018 11:55 am : link
In comment 13832160 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I thought the idea that he was a disciplinarian was false, given what we know about how Plax, Shockey, and Beckham were (not) handled probably in large part because they were star players. Meanwhile if you were a rookie Kiwanuka or Dodge he had no issues publicly humiliating you at a low moment in your career and maybe even your life. I thought those were bad moments for him, and I suspect he had quite a few others behind the scenes.

But that said, there is no question that he was an incredibly hard worker and a really good football coach. It's amazing that he was the head coach for three of the great upsets we've ever seen by three different teams:

- BC over #1 Notre Dame in '93 (vengeance for Holtz running a fake punt up 37-0 in the third quarter the year before)
- Jacksonville over Denver in '96
- Super Bowl XLII


GT: what were your thoughts on Coughlin interviewing with Philly ten minutes after coaching here?
Sean  
Go Terps : 2/14/2018 11:58 am : link
It didn't bother me; that was his right. I thought he could have handled his departure with more class, but once he was gone he was free to do what he had to do. NFL head coaching jobs are rare, and also given his age he didn't have time to be sitting around.
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