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X's & O's: How do you defend the RPO?

RomanWH : 2/14/2018 2:39 pm
During this time of the year when the new coaching staff is being sorted out and everyone is speculating who our beloved Giants will pick in the draft or possible FA signings, I figured we could use an old school football discussion focusing on the latest NFL trend... The Run-Pass Option.(beats trashing Josh Rosen. Lol)

Full disclosure: never coached or played. Just a big football fan and I was hoping BBI's very knowledgeable group of posters(past players and coaches) can break down, dissect, and explain how to defend the trendy offensive scheme that helped propel our division rival Eagles to their first Lombardi(it truly pains me to type that).

Correct me if I'm inaccurate with anything: QB in shotgun with the RB next to him. Ball is snapped, line starts run blocking, QB has the option to do a quick handoff to his RB, pull the ball out and throw a quick slant to his WR, or even just tuck it and run with it himself. With the split second decision being made by the QB as he eyes up how the defense is reacting to the play.

Man defense would just getting eaten up by the slant all day, right? Zone might come up short in keeping the run play to a minimum? Would love to hear some football insight and strategy.
When the QB pulls the ball back,  
Section331 : 2/14/2018 2:43 pm : link
he almost always throws to the area right behind the run fake. I'm no DC, but I would think you would want to slide your coverage in that direction as the play develops. It helps to have good cover LB's, which is why Philly was so successful v. NE. They may be the only team in the league with worse LB's than us. Not sure how to explain what they did to Minny.
First of all...  
Dan in the Springs : 2/14/2018 2:46 pm : link
defenses are still trying to figure that out. RPO in the NFL is on the rise.

Having said that, the keys are to have a defensive front that can win its assignments and play disciplined football. Then you have to have a secondary who can play aggressive, controlling receivers at the LOS to disrupt timing, which is crucial for the scheme to work.

Finally, you have to get pressure on the QB.

No easy task, but then again, it all depends on who you are up against.

One of the reasons that Philly looked so good on offense this year was the quality of their OL. Same with DAL recently. If you have the type of OL that can dominate the POA and the LOS you will be able to run comfortably, which opens everything else up on offense.
I am old enough to remember Ara Parseghian  
81_Great_Dane : 2/14/2018 2:46 pm : link
doing commercials where he talked about the triple option. (I think it was some kind of car commercial.) I believe the option he was talking about was run/pass/pitch-out. The read option and shotgun option have the advantage of novelty, but defenses will adjust. Someone will solve it and then everyone will copy that.

The more interesting thing is, what tradeoffs do you have to make when you adjust? What do you open yourself up to? Is there a way for an offense to mix in the option with other stuff to exploit new vulnerabilities?
So  
RomanWH : 2/14/2018 2:54 pm : link
Have the CB press hard to disrupt the possible slant throw and hope your front seven do a good job sniffing out the run play. How important is the backside DE's assignment? Does he crash down hard or play a softer contain in case the QB takes off? Would that even be his assignment or would it be the 'backer's?
The RPO  
djstat : 2/14/2018 2:55 pm : link
First and foremost requires a very good OL. Keep in mind IL can’t move more then one yard down field. So being able to block like this is tough. In regards to taking away slants, in theory you can man up your secondary and force outside leverage to the WR and take away the slant. This however would lead the QB to handing the ball off and you have to be able to stop the run with 5-6 guys. Zone often will lead to seams and creases for the passing game. Accuracy is critical.

Personally I’d attack an RPO team with a zone blitz and aggressively attack the offense. Can’t be predictable and have to attack gaps from all angles.

RE: When the QB pulls the ball back,  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/14/2018 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13832392 Section331 said:
Quote:
he almost always throws to the area right behind the run fake. I'm no DC, but I would think you would want to slide your coverage in that direction as the play develops. It helps to have good cover LB's, which is why Philly was so successful v. NE. They may be the only team in the league with worse LB's than us. Not sure how to explain what they did to Minny.


If you slide the coverage back I am handing the ball off to the runner.
When you figure it out  
SHO'NUFF : 2/14/2018 2:58 pm : link
please CC Belichick and Patricia.
Lil Bill forgot one important thing  
SHO'NUFF : 2/14/2018 2:59 pm : link
Hit the quarterback regardless.
Assignment football  
JonC : 2/14/2018 3:18 pm : link
Alot of teams deploy man at the snap to cut down on the read/react decision making, and there tends to be a lot of different looks shown, eg, mix zone looks as a disguise at pre-snap and then roll into your actual call at the snap.

The RPO tends to create a numbers advantage, eg by leaving backside defenders away from the ball unblocked. It often forces defenses to bring a safety up as an extra defender in the box to try and solve the numbers disadvantage. Teams will try to mix the safety looks as well, eg the up safety might rotate down at the snap and be a QB spy who is expected to run fill to his side, and the WILL drops to cover the pass.

You're trying to disrupt their reads and timing with rotation, hold contain, man on receivers, squeeze off cutback lanes, force the ball inside where more hats can quickly rally to the football.

You need speed too, thus a lot of nickel looks. Running man coverage means backs are turned to the QB and the football, there's a lot of single high safety, so there has to be communication.
Also, you'll see defenders swap assignments  
JonC : 2/14/2018 3:33 pm : link
eg, the safety becomes a LB with gap assignment and run first progression, and vice versa concept.

Defend first down well to put them behind schedule, maintain 2-gap integrity, attack the mesh from the inside of the DL, squeeze cutback lanes and passing seams, try to set traps on where they read and pass to, and tackle well in space.

That's my layman's take.
Sounds like a pro take to me jon  
idiotsavant : 2/14/2018 3:42 pm : link
My 2c is get a DT across that line there quick-like.

Blow up either the runner or the passer.

A quality DT or the Other DT

You gotta mix things up. So. Sometimes it's a LB interior gap blitz.

Besides that. Discipline in your assignmemts and hammer the fuck outta the ball carrier.
Remember a scripted disciplined and multiple  
idiotsavant : 2/14/2018 3:48 pm : link
One gap attack accounts for risk management with the whereabouts of all the other members of the defense.
At very least your DT is in the passing lane  
idiotsavant : 2/14/2018 3:51 pm : link
.
RE: RE: When the QB pulls the ball back,  
BillKo : 2/14/2018 3:51 pm : link
In comment 13832423 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13832392 Section331 said:


Quote:


he almost always throws to the area right behind the run fake. I'm no DC, but I would think you would want to slide your coverage in that direction as the play develops. It helps to have good cover LB's, which is why Philly was so successful v. NE. They may be the only team in the league with worse LB's than us. Not sure how to explain what they did to Minny.



If you slide the coverage back I am handing the ball off to the runner.


Make it one dimensional, a common goal of an NFL defense.

Take the pass away or the run, make them do the opposite, to play into your strength.

The thing about the RPO is it extends drives, but it doesn't hit on big plays....it seems to me it's mostly slants and such that go for generally under 10 yards.
There's a ton more to it  
JonC : 2/14/2018 3:55 pm : link
Playing the pitch, unblocked and backside play, scraping to create confusion for the OL, force leverage on receivers, there's tons of option rules focused on the mesh point, and I don't know how the DTs and MIKE play together off the top of my head. If it's a zone call then it gets crazy because of all the positional techniques to defend spaces instead of a man. Generating pressure and playing fast are huge.

What the RPO is most effective at  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/14/2018 3:56 pm : link
is making half your defense go one way, leaving you with very few people to defend on the opposite side of the field. Even if they aren't effective at first, it starts to get the defenses moving in one direction, and then the team will hit a counter off of it that will lead to wide open plays.

Ajay's long run is the perfect example. Half the defense was moving the opposite direction mostly because they had influenced the defense to do so.
RPO..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/14/2018 4:06 pm : link
tries to level the playing field by forcing the D to win individual battles to make plays, so mismatches are exploited. Incorrect defensive shifts are punished. It puts pressure on the D to not make mistakes and stay in their assignments. It is risky, but a d can keep showing several different fronts or looks pre-snap to cause confusion. I was surprised the Pats didn't do that continuously during the SB. They ended up being reactive instead of proactive.

It may very well end up that RPO stays a fixture or at least a subset of offenses for years to come, because if it is run well, it is only defensed by a very disciplined team.

But it also requires elements to be successful. It needs a good OL to hold the point of attack. It needs RB's that are able to read and adapt (and cutback a lot). It needs a QB with above average skills to read a defense pre and post-snap.
Eagles were effective in being multiple on offense  
JonC : 2/14/2018 4:17 pm : link
dictating tempo and where the game took place to the defense. Pats looked stunned and just couldn't nail anything down, but it was also one of their lesser collective talents on D.
Similar to what we may be doing O this year with power spread  
idiotsavant : 2/14/2018 4:17 pm : link
Or what have you. Directional football as opposed to pure power ball. Get them going east... we go west.

Similar to East running West roll outs/passing in shanny zone ball?

In that it's opposite directional when the change ups happen.

Lots of that.

I say blow it up before it gets going.

If you have great DTs they can adjust on the fly before either run or pass develops. It's why I don't favor stunts on DL. Not quick enough.

And as someone.mentioned. your dbacks have to divert possible receivers before the 5 yards rule. Or after.. simply by clogging the route. Practice squad.

Man cover might help also - in that your counter play receiver will still have at least that one DB on him.

Who is the teams typical change up WR? Man cover. For that spy db, ignore flow of play just watch the one backside threat player.
Lots of good info.  
RomanWH : 2/14/2018 4:55 pm : link
Appreciate the contributions.

Would dropping a safety in the box influence the pre snap read of an RPO play call? And would doing so open up the possibility of a slant and go option for the single side WR? Take advantage of the D overplaying the base RPO(handoff or slant pass option).
If the RPO continues to be effective  
NINEster : 2/16/2018 6:51 am : link
I can see Kaepernick returning to the NFL in such an offense, easily.
RPO..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/16/2018 8:11 am : link
requires the QB to make a lot of reads, both pre and post snap.

That isn't a strength of Kap.

Don't confuse the RPO with the option. It doesn't rely on a mobile QB - it relies on making quick and accurate reads.
I think  
English Alaister : 2/16/2018 8:30 am : link
A few things

1. If you have a run stopping front then have your LBs read pass and force them to stop you. Tough with Ajayi and Blount playing well but we could do it when we had Hankins.

2. Blitz from the non-LB positions. The QB is having to read the LBs so you can run blitz a safety or blitz a CB effectively.

3. Show all out blitz and man up and just play try and get home in 2 seconds.
Why I keep going back to big quick DTs  
idiotsavant : 2/16/2018 1:37 pm : link
DTs that can jump into across the line but who also have the requisite heft not to get washed out, for example by zone type OL run blocks, or double blocks...

A quick single gap rush can fuck up -any- scheme?

As always. If you can destroy blocking, get rush -and- stop the run w 4...then you have an extra speed player or two for plays that go counter flow, backside, unnatended receivers. Etc?
Assume 3 wrs  
idiotsavant : 2/16/2018 1:46 pm : link
Even in a 3/4 you need at least 4 legit pass rush/run stopping dual dl type threats.

3 corners in man cover.

That leaves another 4 players for disciplined zone duties.
-all - of whom must be able to run very quickly and have real zone football instincts and can tackle well.
No clue but assuming since our new coach  
eli4life : 2/16/2018 1:53 pm : link
Ran some of it himself he might have an idea it’s weaknesses or at least I hope he does
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