Salary cap won't prohibit Giants from significant moves

you love to completely destroy JPP and Vernon while singing the praises of Von Miller.

JPP had more tackles than Miller last year. Miller had ONE more sack.

Is Miller hot smelly garbage too?

JPP and Vernon are productive DEs in this league. Compliment them with more talent. Watch the D thrive. Those two DEs are as good against the run as any DE combo going. Add talent to the LBs and Edge rushers. COMPLIMENT THEM.

In comment 13833666 bigbluehoya said:

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I agree, and it’s one of the many reasons why consuming most of NFL offseason media coverage has become unbearable. Everything needs to get boiled down to a 15-word sound bite and everything gets tremendously misleading in oversimplification. There ought to be a more ubiquitous metric that objectively analyzes each contract based on it’s structure and the player’s age/position to boil it down to an expected number of years and $ earned. Something like modified duration on interest rate products.

You would hope that the sophisticated fan would understand this and wouldn't keep parroting the same stupid thing to try and diminish a guy like Odell or JPP, but that's not the case. Either certain people have no understanding of the cap or choose to speak in false narratives to make a point. It's not reality.

who fucking cares how much JPP and Vernon make? They will keep their jobs here if they stay on the field and produce. Ok fine, maybe they are overpaid but will anyone really give a shit if JPP is batting down a pass in the 4th quarter of a big game week 14 next season? No. We won't.

And he had good seasons after 2011 --but you consistently ignore that and post the same bs every other day. 2014 ring a bell? What about most of 2016 before he got hurt?

The Giants paid Vernon and JPP big money because they are two way DEs. They aren't the best passrushers in the NFL but they are good two way players and those guys are hard to find. Perhaps the Giants could find a way to lessen their snap counts in 2018...that would be nice.

Afternoon guys: Interesting discussion again. In fact, there is no mystery as to how we got here. In the 2015 season, the Giants offense, which the team had been meticulously rebuilding, took off and was one of the best in the league. However, the defense sucked. So with Eli looking at a 3-4 year window of opportunity given his age and contract, they went out and literally bought the best defense money could buy by signing JPP, Vernon, Snacks and Jackrabbit to what are essentially 3-4 year contracts that would let the Giants off the hook around the time that Eli would be moving on. And that defense played great in 2016, but for whatever reason the offense took a major step backwards. The peanut gallery tended to blame the OL - which for the record was the same unit that they had in the top 5-10 year in 2015 - although, as I have indicated in the past, my sources reported that the organization put most of the blame on Eli.

Entering 2017, the hope/expectation was that the D would play at the somewhere near the same level as the previous year and that the offense in general, and Eli in particular would have a bounce back year. Instead, the offense continued to struggle while the defense just never played with the anywhere near same intensity as 2016. Who's to blame; who knows; my own sense is that this is sports and shit happens.

Interestingly, my sense is while the obviously have to find some bodies to fill out the OL, the key to the 2018 season is the defense. If they can play back to the 2016 level then the Giants could be reasonably competitive again this fall. And there is no reason they shouldn't. There is talent on that side of the ball: Snacks, Collins and Jackrabbit are each legit Pro Bowl possibilities and if healthy and motivated JPP and Vernon - both of whom may be playing for their 2019 contracts - are as good as just about any DE combo in the league.

At the same time, though, the Giants are clearly in a transition period from the Eli era to whatever comes next and 2018 will really be more a transition year so one would really like to see moves - whether its the draft or free agency - to have something of a longer term perspective than usual.

Should be an interesting year.

In comment 13833649 Keith said:

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If JPP and Vernon don't improve/stay healthy, they will NEVER see all of the money. People keep looking at NFL contracts like they are gtd, but they aren't. This is the NFL where you can rid yourself of bad contracts fairly easily.

The $200M also gets thrown around like it’s $200M per season. It’s just a strange obsession some fans have. Let’s add up all the years of every contract and bitch incessantly about a team spending money well within the cap. Never mind that much of that money will never be seen by the players.

when fans rate a player based on how much he's getting paid, especially in uncapped sports.

The Vernon comments are particularly frustrating because when he's healthy he's very good, and he's exactly the model people here screamed for. Young player coming off of a rookie contract instead of an aging guy at the end of the string.

Heck, every guy Reese signed with the $200M fit that bill.

But really, the $$ shouldn't matter to the fans, let the cap guys figure it out. I just never understood talk about guys overdrafted or overpaid, and a lot of times it is subjective.

Not to pick on GT again, but he was commenting this week about how the Panthers overdrafted McCaffery. The guy ended up with 80 receptions and was a focal point of the offense as a rookie. He was a key reason they made the postseason, so does it matter where he was drafted? Panthers weren't going to get him a round later.

Same goes with salary. I'm not sitting here going, "Nice pick Jenkins, but you should have another two before the game's over because you are making a shitload of cash!".

It isn't logical at all.

In comment 13833689 djm said:

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who fucking cares how much JPP and Vernon make? They will keep their jobs here if they stay on the field and produce. Ok fine, maybe they are overpaid but will anyone really give a shit if JPP is batting down a pass in the 4th quarter of a big game week 14 next season? No. We won't. And he had good seasons after 2011 --but you consistently ignore that and post the same bs every other day. 2014 ring a bell? What about most of 2016 before he got hurt? The Giants paid Vernon and JPP big money because they are two way DEs. They aren't the best passrushers in the NFL but they are good two way players and those guys are hard to find. Perhaps the Giants could find a way to lessen their snap counts in 2018...that would be nice.

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Terps and some others were right about JPP djm : 10/1/2017 7:48 pm : link He's a good but not great player. Money should have been used elsewhere. I hate everything. Fuck spags too.

Link - ( New Window )

McCaffrey isn't a bad player by any stretch, but you could see that Panthers were struggling, especially early in the season, to incorporate him into the offense. They were trying very hard to shoe horn in plays for him; I made that point backing up my feeling that Shula had a tough job in 2017.

You're right...we shouldn't care about the money...it isn't ours.

What we should care about is Kelechi Osemele and Mitchell Schwartz being All-Pro offensive linemen elsewhere for less guaranteed money combined than what we gave Vernon. And meanwhile our offensive line is a complete joke to the point where Gettleman brought it up in his introductory press conference.

It's not about the money, it's what could be done with it.

then would we have kept a shitty defense and then complain too?

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It's not about the money, it's what could be done with it.

It really isn't what can be done with the money. It is that a team that is strong in making good scouting decisions on personnel should do well, no matter the salary implications.

As pointed out above, our roster construction fell apart because of the OL. But not because we were cheap - because we missed evaluating the players correctly.

We could've brought Schwartz and Whitworth and whomever else to the team, but if we then limped to 8-8, people would pick a few players and ride them as being overpaid stiffs.

If players are going to be ridden, it should be because they suck. Markus Kuhn. Matt Dodge. Jerrel Jernigan. Larry Donnell. Those guys were mostly steaming piles of crap, but their cap allocation wasn't the reason - they basically made peanuts.

I don't think it is offbase to argue that both Vernon and JPP are in the top half of the league at DE (I know I could at least make that argument), yet some treat them like they are Markus Kuhn because of what they make. Don't do that - do it on the merits of their play.

That 2016 spending spree was a mulligan for drafting like shit the prior 5 years. We were able to spend that money outside because we didn't have to bother resigning any of our own (discounting the weird JPP saga). That's the upside of drafting poorly, you give the fans a more exciting FA period.

The Giants should have spent money on the OL and at the end of the day, that's the main reason we were a huge disappointment last year. That's different from...we shouldn't have signed JPP and vernon, we should have signed a few good OL. Why couldn't we do both? The answer is that Reese doubled down on the stupid. He believed that the guys he had on the OL were good enough. He was wrong and it costs him his job.

In comment 13833758 Go Terps said:

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You're right...we shouldn't care about the money...it isn't ours. What we should care about is Kelechi Osemele and Mitchell Schwartz being All-Pro offensive linemen elsewhere for less guaranteed money combined than what we gave Vernon. And meanwhile our offensive line is a complete joke to the point where Gettleman brought it up in his introductory press conference. It's not about the money, it's what could be done with it.

How do you know that Osemele and Schwartz would have come to the Giants? How do you know the Giants didn’t try? You compare players contracts like this all the time but it’s just not that black and white. Heck, many times you compare to players that have never been FAs and have never been available. You search around the league to find all of the absolute best values and throw it around like it’s easy for the Giants to just raid teams of their players. Or just snap their fingers and convince players to sign with the Giants.

In comment 13833780 AcesUp said:

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That 2016 spending spree was a mulligan for drafting like shit the prior 5 years. We were able to spend that money outside because we didn't have to bother resigning any of our own (discounting the weird JPP saga). That's the upside of drafting poorly, you give the fans a more exciting FA period.

This is 100% accurate, and almost always overlooked. Had Reese drafted Vernon, Jenkins and Harrison, they still would have reached FA when they did, and we'd still have had to make the same decisions on whether to sign them. People are quick to claim that it's because of the poor drafting that the Giants had to spend as much as they did without acknowledging that it's also why they were able to to spend as much as they did.

You can make the case that if there was a more consistent pipeline of talent in general, they might have only signed 1-2 of them rather than all 3, but that's mostly conjecture.

It isn't that simple. Their cost matters, because it impacts the way the rest of the roster is constructed. Big money spent in one area is going to mean less spent in another. The Giants spent huge at defensive end, and that position is not carrying the defense to the extent it should. It's not enough to be in the top half of the league at their position, if they are at all. We aren't going to pay a star free agent at a position of need this offseason (say, LeVeon Bell) in part because we are paying Vernon and JPP.

A couple months ago I started a thread calling attention to Spotrac's player valuation tool. Here's how they describe it:

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An up-to-date look at the value rankings of all active NFL players based on a mathematical comparison of their current average salary against their cumulative "production points". These points are made up of major statistical categories relevant to that player's position. From there, we generate a z-score for each player among their position, to rank them with a "value". This True Value rating is what you see below. By default players must have played in 60% of available snaps in order to qualify.

I'm not touting this as the end all be all; it's just a tool that should be used along with other qualitative and quantitative measures to try to tell the story.

According to this one particular tool, Vernon ranked 71st and JPP 74th in the NFL amongst defensive ends in performance v. salary.

Again, just one tool and not the end all be all. But if you go through the team rankings and player rankings it looks like there is some correlation between these valuations and win-loss records.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13833799 Go Terps said:

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It isn't that simple. Their cost matters, because it impacts the way the rest of the roster is constructed. Big money spent in one area is going to mean less spent in another. The Giants spent huge at defensive end, and that position is not carrying the defense to the extent it should. It's not enough to be in the top half of the league at their position, if they are at all. We aren't going to pay a star free agent at a position of need this offseason (say, LeVeon Bell) in part because we are paying Vernon and JPP. A couple months ago I started a thread calling attention to Spotrac's player valuation tool. Here's how they describe it: Quote: An up-to-date look at the value rankings of all active NFL players based on a mathematical comparison of their current average salary against their cumulative "production points". These points are made up of major statistical categories relevant to that player's position. From there, we generate a z-score for each player among their position, to rank them with a "value". This True Value rating is what you see below. By default players must have played in 60% of available snaps in order to qualify. I'm not touting this as the end all be all; it's just a tool that should be used along with other qualitative and quantitative measures to try to tell the story. According to this one particular tool, Vernon ranked 71st and JPP 74th in the NFL amongst defensive ends in performance v. salary. Again, just one tool and not the end all be all. But if you go through the team rankings and player rankings it looks like there is some correlation between these valuations and win-loss records. Link - ( New Window )

That's an interesting tool, and it definitely supports your view on their contracts. The only observation that I'd make is that it seems to weight sacks very heavily with less value placed on run defense for DEs (the actual formula is not shown, is it?). Now, maybe that actually is the proper weighting for DE valuation, but if not, the tool is almost certainly bound to undervalue both JPP and OV.

That said, their contracts are such that they're not likely to represent a good value relative to lesser paid players. Since they're already paid like stars, they're going to get dinged for anything less. And I realize that's exactly your point, and I'm not disputing it.

I'm curious what you think a fair value for them would be. This is completely separate from the argument of whether or not you fundamentally agree with spending so much on one position group - it's really more, if we fully concede that JPP and OV are overpaid, how much do you estimate that they're overpaid by? And once that is determined, what is the opportunity cost that the overpayment value represents?

In comment 13833794 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 13833780 AcesUp said: Quote: That 2016 spending spree was a mulligan for drafting like shit the prior 5 years. We were able to spend that money outside because we didn't have to bother resigning any of our own (discounting the weird JPP saga). That's the upside of drafting poorly, you give the fans a more exciting FA period. This is 100% accurate, and almost always overlooked. Had Reese drafted Vernon, Jenkins and Harrison, they still would have reached FA when they did, and we'd still have had to make the same decisions on whether to sign them. People are quick to claim that it's because of the poor drafting that the Giants had to spend as much as they did without acknowledging that it's also why they were able to to spend as much as they did. You can make the case that if there was a more consistent pipeline of talent in general, they might have only signed 1-2 of them rather than all 3, but that's mostly conjecture.

It's all about perspective. Resigning a known commodity during the season or prior to FA doesn't bring the headlines or attention like signing the #1 DE on the open market. If we simply drafted Vernon and gave him that contract prior to FA, there would be 1 sticky at the top of this site and not 50 different threads leading up to and after. I always look at Vernon, Jenkins and Snacks as pseudo mulligans for DaMontre Moore, Prince and Hankins. Yes, Abrams is good but he's not a magician, he was simply working without the burden of having to extend any of his own players. I'm hoping that changes.

In comment 13833373 adamg said:

Quote:

He'd fold every hand until he gets aces, see the flop, and then fold to a big bet when he doesn't flop quads.

If you'd ever played cards with him, you'd know that's not true at all. I don't think I've seen him fold a hand in 15 years.

.

I still can't believe his plan was Hart & Flowers.

Seriously?

Reese & Ross over-allocation of resources to athletes at skill positions crushed this team.

Draft success is fleeting. Injuries play a part for sure.

I'll never let go of Reese drafting David Wilson. Wilson was awesome - no doubt. However, we needed OL. Our OL had aged. McKenzie certainly was winding down.

I was at a panthers game where we got blown out, shut out and the interior OL crumbled with 2 injuries. It was the worst live game I've been to as a Giants fan. Manning was getting destroyed.

That game was in 2013. 2013! The fact that wasn't fixed by 2015 is a joke.

This regime is going to end that.

Reese seemed incapable of extending anyone prior to their contract ending. I'm sure this is not accurate, but it feels this way.

I'd like to see the Giants prioritize prior to FA
1) Resigning Cockrell
2) Extending Collins
3) Resign Fluker

At FA
4) Get at least 1 OL Caliber starter
5) Get some LBers / hybrid dbs that are fast , phsyical and are multiple and fit into Betchers system

In comment 13833948 DavidinBMNY said:

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I still can't believe his plan was Hart & Flowers. Seriously? Reese & Ross over-allocation of resources to athletes at skill positions crushed this team. Draft success is fleeting. Injuries play a part for sure. I'll never let go of Reese drafting David Wilson. Wilson was awesome - no doubt. However, we needed OL. Our OL had aged. McKenzie certainly was winding down. I was at a panthers game where we got blown out, shut out and the interior OL crumbled with 2 injuries. It was the worst live game I've been to as a Giants fan. Manning was getting destroyed. That game was in 2013. 2013! The fact that wasn't fixed by 2015 is a joke. This regime is going to end that.

I don't think you can fairly say that the OL failed due to lack of resources - they did use two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick (plus a 6th and 7th round pick) on the OL in recent years. They just didn't pick the right guys. If Flowers had turned into Tyron Smith, Pugh into Zack Martin and Richburg into Travis Frederick, would the Giants have an OL problem?

Quote:

I'm curious what you think a fair value for them would be. This is completely separate from the argument of whether or not you fundamentally agree with spending so much on one position group - it's really more, if we fully concede that JPP and OV are overpaid, how much do you estimate that they're overpaid by? And once that is determined, what is the opportunity cost that the overpayment value represents?

It's difficult to say. JPP is certainly wildly overpaid considering the physical injuries he's had as well as the questions that have been there from time to time about effort level. If you look at Cameron Jordan (a better player than both JPP and Vernon IMO), he signed a 5 year $55M contract in 2015. To me that would have been the absolute ceiling for Vernon. For JPP I wouldn't have offered more than $4 or $5M a year for a year or two.

In 2015 Brandon Graham signed a 4 year, $26M contract extension with Philly. Compare that with what we gave JPP: 1 year $10M in 2016 and then 4 years $62M in 2017. JPP may have been better than his draft classmate Graham in 2011, but that was several years and a half a hand ago. I'd argue Graham is clearly a better player than JPP is now, and his 2018 cap hit will be almost $10M less. That's tough to swallow...$10M is a lot of cap space.

But we were desperate and flush with cash following 2015, and the agents knew it. So here we are today.

It's the second most expensive position on the field. There are other positions, like TE, G, or S, where "spending huge" is a completely different ball game.

I pointed out the $10M difference in 2018 salary cap between JPP and Brandon Graham. Here are some players with a $10M or less cap hit in 2018:

Malcolm Jenkins
Harrison Smith
Travis Kelce
Mike Iupati
Keenan Allen
Snacks
Kam Chancellor
Geno Atkins
Zack Martin
Larry Worford
LeSean McCoy

That should put the absurdity of JPP's (and Vernon's) contracts in perspective...in 2018, JPP (or Vernon) = Brandon Graham + any one of those guys.

In comment 13833955 Gatorade Dunk said:

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I don't think you can fairly say that the OL failed due to lack of resources - they did use two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick (plus a 6th and 7th round pick) on the OL in recent years. They just didn't pick the right guys. If Flowers had turned into Tyron Smith, Pugh into Zack Martin and Richburg into Travis Frederick, would the Giants have an OL problem?

No, but I bet Richburg's wife would be really confused.

In comment 13833740 Go Terps said:

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In comment 13833689 djm said: Quote: who fucking cares how much JPP and Vernon make? They will keep their jobs here if they stay on the field and produce. Ok fine, maybe they are overpaid but will anyone really give a shit if JPP is batting down a pass in the 4th quarter of a big game week 14 next season? No. We won't. And he had good seasons after 2011 --but you consistently ignore that and post the same bs every other day. 2014 ring a bell? What about most of 2016 before he got hurt? The Giants paid Vernon and JPP big money because they are two way DEs. They aren't the best passrushers in the NFL but they are good two way players and those guys are hard to find. Perhaps the Giants could find a way to lessen their snap counts in 2018...that would be nice. Quote: Terps and some others were right about JPP djm : 10/1/2017 7:48 pm : link He's a good but not great player. Money should have been used elsewhere. I hate everything. Fuck spags too. Link - ( New Window )

Wow you got me.. in the throes of the shittiest nyg seaaon ever I questioned everything Giants related including jpp.

Great. What's the point? He's still a good live body at DE.

It stands to reason that the Giants might have been better off signing a top flight OT rather than re-sign jpp. I could stand by that but I'm not going to dwell on it either and part of me is hopeful that jpp can help this team win again in 2018.

I stated my blueprint for last off season before it began. They didn't do what I wanted.

In comment 13833859 rsjem1979 said:

Quote:

In comment 13833373 adamg said: Quote: He'd fold every hand until he gets aces, see the flop, and then fold to a big bet when he doesn't flop quads. If you'd ever played cards with him, you'd know that's not true at all. I don't think I've seen him fold a hand in 15 years.

I fold shit and bet aggressively on anything good. Table won't be boring if I'm playing.

Use the bet as a weapon.

In comment 13833982 Go Terps said:

Quote:

It's the second most expensive position on the field. There are other positions, like TE, G, or S, where "spending huge" is a completely different ball game. I pointed out the $10M difference in 2018 salary cap between JPP and Brandon Graham. Here are some players with a $10M or less cap hit in 2018: Malcolm Jenkins Harrison Smith Travis Kelce Mike Iupati Keenan Allen Snacks Kam Chancellor Geno Atkins Zack Martin Larry Worford LeSean McCoy That should put the absurdity of JPP's (and Vernon's) contracts in perspective...in 2018, JPP (or Vernon) = Brandon Graham + any one of those guys.

You're still formulating arguments that show a lack of understanding of the cap.

First, these guys all play assorted positions - so the positional values are going to vary quite a bit. There are linemen, RB's, WR's, and DB's on that list.

Second, cap hits don't spread evenly. Just because these guys had a cap hit of 10M or less this year doesn't mean they do every year.

Allen signed his deal coming off a year where he missed half the season due to injury and then actually missed the entire following season. His cap hit jumps over 10M next year and the following year, as well.

Zack Martin just got his option picked up - his cap number is 100% going to be over 10M per year as soon as he gets his next contract. Zeiter's cap hits are 12-14M - Martin will get more.

Harrison Smith's cap hit hits 10M and over starting next year.

When Atkins signed his deal back in 2013, there weren't even any 4-3 DT's in the sport with a cap hit @ 11M or higher.

That list is quite frankly, meaningless. Most of those contracts were signed at different times, and the players all play different positions, and their cap hits aren't static from year to year.

Kelce signed a 6 year deal back in 2014.

If he were on the market right now, he would be made the highest paid C in the league and his cap hit would jump over 10M per year because that's what it would require.

You keep saying I don't get it and implying that you do, but continue to miss the point.

We have overspent foolishly for non-elite players at the worst possible positions to make such a mistake. If you can't grasp that I don't know what to tell you.

In comment 13834028 Go Terps said:

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You keep saying I don't get it and implying that you do, but continue to miss the point. We have overspent foolishly for non-elite players at the worst possible positions to make such a mistake. If you can't grasp that I don't know what to tell you.

All I am doing is pointing out that you proved nothing with that list and I showed you exactly why.

I'm not missing the point because you're not making one.

Listing players at a billion different positions than the ones you're complaining about and isolating single year cap hits is entirely fruitless.

Half of those deals were signed several years ago, most of those positions are less costly than pass rushers, and guys like Zack Martin are still on their rookie deals.

JPP and Vernon aren't prohibiting this team nearly as much as you think.

Either you can learn more about how the cap works or keep making foolish arguments like the one you tried above.

Your call.

And NY tried to snag him that offseason but he choose to go back to Philly. And what I mean by they got lucky is check his numbers before and after the signing and you will see what I mean... and FYI you are so wrong all over this thread

Several of the deals I've talked about were signed in 2015 and 2016. They are all applicable to the discussion. And yes I realize they change year to year, but so do JPP and Vernon's.

I've already acknowledged that I understand cap hell is a thing of the past, but that doesn't make JPP and Vernon less shitty contracts. We're tied to them and they underperform. And it was obvious this would happen since before we signed them.

are only shitty contracts if we could easily replace them with cheaper players. Both can be off the books after this year without much problem.

That's why it is foolish to look at players primarily by value.

But we really aren't "tied" to them.

We could cut JPP after next season and save nearly 10M in space. Sure, it still eats space in dead money but it halves the cap hit.

Same deal with Vernon - if we really wanted to, we could cut him after next season and save 11M.

It's not like they are useless players anyway. JPP bugged me last year from an effort standpoint but I think in a new defense, Bettcher may be able to get more out of both players.

I still think Vernon is pretty darn good when he's healthy.

In comment 13834038 Go Terps said:

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Several of the deals I've talked about were signed in 2015 and 2016. They are all applicable to the discussion. And yes I realize they change year to year, but so do JPP and Vernon's. I've already acknowledged that I understand cap hell is a thing of the past, but that doesn't make JPP and Vernon less shitty contracts. We're tied to them and they underperform. And it was obvious this would happen since before we signed them.

Well, those contracts are from the prior administration. No need to dwell on them. It is what it is. Gettleman was hired & he’s a hard ass on these things.

Can we move on from them right now? If not, why is that?

Quote:

arc Go Terps : 2/15/2018 10:27 pm : link : reply Can we move on from them right now? If not, why is that?

Technically, we can move on from any player, but here's the thing - Why should we move from JPP and Vernon right now? Are they THAT bad? No.

That's the issue when you start overly leaning on a skewed view of a player by their contract - you start to treat them as if they are terrible - hence my parallels to Kuhn, Donnell and others above, when in actuality, they are impact guys. Heck, a healthy Vernon is still a young guy and both players are solid two-way guys.

Making moves solely on how expensive a player is will lead you to cheaper options, but rarely better ones

In comment 13834095 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Can we move on from them right now? If not, why is that?

Why would we move on from them? Who are we bringing in that is better? And if we cut them what players from other positions are we signing that we can’t right now? The Giants have made it clear that the cap will not prevent them from signing any players. If they want Norwell and he wants them, they will sign him. So how exactly does it help the team to cut both pieces of what many consider one of the best DE tandems in the league?

Regardless of your opinion of them, when teams are scouting the Giants and you read pregame evaluations each week from the opponents, the first things that come up from them when talking about the Giants strengths are Beckham and the DL.

they'd probably get the same deals on the open market. The Giants have plenty of cap space and don't need to clear it. I don't think any reasonable fan would want to get rid of JPP and/or Vernon when we aren't trying to save money to sign someone else.

we could have a strong OL!!






And a shitty tandem of DE's......

In comment 13834095 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Can we move on from them right now? If not, why is that?

"Why do we need to?" might be a better question.

I'm not sure I can come up with a good answer for that.

They're overpaid, but these aren't albatross deals for players who are useless. Both guys can still play. Why are we in such a rush to get out of these deals right this second?

and should have productive years ahead with an "easy" out within the next year or 2.

hard why Go Terps wants to move away from them. He thinks JPP is a jackass for blowing off his hand and that they are overpaid.

So he's going to bang the drum that they shouldn't be here, just as he keeps doing with Beckham. Basically, the players are unlikeable in his eyes (not sure how that applies to Vernon), so he'd prefer they aren't giants. Same for Jenkins.

I get that. So just say you don't want them on the team - don't try to twist it into an illogical argument or arguments.

Trying to bring logic into an emotional decision. It doesn't work.

He loves this shit about the cap despite displaying no rationale worth listening to. But people continue to ask for his 'insight'.

In comment 13833982 Go Terps said:

Quote:

There are other positions, like TE, G, or S, where "spending huge" is a completely different ball game.

Meant to say that while this debate has gone all over the place, I do think that this is an interesting point

Quote:

There are other positions, like TE, G, or S, where "spending huge" is a completely different ball game.

Reese, and many other GMs, have their "glamour" positions. Logic says you spend big money and use valuable draft picks on DE, LT, CB, WR. You don't use those assets on TE, G, S, LB, DT, etc.

But the price for that when everybody is thinking the same way is those guys end up being tremendously expensive.

While I think Vernon and JPP are good players, there is no doubt that we paid elite money for very good, but not elite players. But if we didn't give Vernon that, he would have easily got it elsewhere.

I'm interested in the idea of going the opposite way of that. Invest the money in the non premium positions because the elite money isn't nearly as much as it will be for premium positions. And you can maybe get 2-3 of them for the price of one big DE contract.

I thought the Eagles did a nice job of that. They locked up key pieces at DT, TE, S, and LB. They built a lot of depth at DE with manageable contracts. No matter what you think of our guys, there is no doubt that we lack pass rushing depth.

Their CBs were nothing special, probably below average. But they didn't have to be great because the surrounding units were so strong.

The Patriots model is unrealistic. But I thought the Eagles presented a nice, realistic model of a team that spent to retain their guys, but did so efficiently at positions that are not valued at a premium by the market.

Just a thought

In comment 13834406 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

hard why Go Terps wants to move away from them. He thinks JPP is a jackass for blowing off his hand and that they are overpaid. So he's going to bang the drum that they shouldn't be here, just as he keeps doing with Beckham. Basically, the players are unlikeable in his eyes (not sure how that applies to Vernon), so he'd prefer they aren't giants. Same for Jenkins. I get that. So just say you don't want them on the team - don't try to twist it into an illogical argument or arguments.

This is completely wrong.