Salary cap won't prohibit Giants from significant moves

The fact most of their high priced talent, Snacks excluded, did not perform up to expectations is no concern?

And if you get rid of them to create cap space next year, you have to pay big bucks to replace them....

Who cares about 2019? What about 2018?

We do not have a lot of cap space to make significant moves this year........

Moves made depend on the direction this team takes.....play for now or play for the future.....if you play for now and make the wrong moves, the dark ages continue....

You can sign a players this year for a lower base salary and have most of the hit come next year and the year after.

is some kinda wizard with the cap numbers... glad to still have him on our side

because he knows his numbers and manipulates the cap very well.

In comment 13833088 fireitup77 said:

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You can sign a players this year for a lower base salary and have most of the hit come next year and the year after.

Eli comes off but Odell and Collins will go up. It balances out.

so short sighted. We aren't going to be completely out of the mess in 2018. Could it happen maybe, but probably not. We should have a better season next season, but winning it all probably isn't realistic. Say what you want about Reese, but he didn't strap us with terrible contracts that we can't move on from.

Beckham’s cost is stupid.

are looking at a multiple year rebuild -- I think they are going to strike with 3 or 4 key FA moves this year and try to be very competitive

my prediction

2 Olineman will be signed to significant contracts
at least 2 other Olineman signed to mid to low range contracts
1 or 2 LBs will be signed to mid to high range range contracts
at least 1 significant veteran RB will be signed to mid to high range contract
2 DBs will be signed to mid to low range contracts

In comment 13833114 UConn4523 said:

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Beckham’s cost is stupid.

No... Stupid is saying an argument about his cost is a 1 to relation to the cap only. Beckhams cost argument includes possible issues with attitude and behavior, overall value of a WR (no matter how good) to a team with many holes and whether or not we will have the QB to get him the ball.

Saying anyone who argues over Beckhams contract value is stupid, without looking at all the factors that make up tehir argument, is stupid.

and hopefully we can find a FS

In comment 13833116 gidiefor said:

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are looking at a multiple year rebuild -- I think they are going to strike with 3 or 4 key FA moves this year and try to be very competitive my prediction 2 Olineman will be signed to significant contracts at least 2 other Olineman signed to mid to low range contracts 1 or 2 LBs will be signed to mid to high range range contracts at least 1 significant veteran RB will be signed to mid to high range contract 2 DBs will be signed to mid to low range contracts

Gidie, about 48 hours ago, I would have disagreed with you completely. In fact, I was completely pessimistic about the upcoming offseason, because frankly there just isn't a lot to pick from among the free agents (naturally that can change) and what is there will be pricey. I was mulling over the thought that maybe Gettleman almost had to trade the #2 pick because the Giants would have to rely overwhelmingly on the draft to fix the team. Not to mention the impending contracts for Collins and OBJ.

Then I realized, I was looking at the cap all wrong. I was not considering the long term cap management implications, and the fact that if need be, in 2019 and 2020, the Giants can shed significant salary.

I don't disagree with the basics of what you posted at all. The challenge will be identifying which players to spend big money on. Right now, the FA market is not looking strong. Norwell, even at more an 10mil avg salary makes a ton of sense for the Giants. Solder at LT makes sense too, but it will be a lot of money to pay a tackle who just hit 30. Other than bringing back Pugh to play RT, which I don't think Gettleman will do, I don't see what other moves for big money OL additions make sense.

All that said, if the Giants can do as you outline (2 big OL FAs, 2 cheaper OL, 1-2 LBs, 1 Vet RB, and 1-2 DBs) then they can truly go BPA throughout most of the draft.

In comment 13833163 NikkiMac said:

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and hopefully we can find a FS

A single high FS will be hard, but I think there is good value in the WR FA class.

may very well cost 11 per, but the oresence he bring will be worth the cost.

If the rumor about resigning Pugh is true it doesn't make sense to spend that much on the interior. If that happens you can bet that they have an idea of moving Pugh to tackle.

In comment 13833182 Emil said:

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In comment 13833163 NikkiMac said: Quote: and hopefully we can find a FS A single high FS will be hard, but I think there is good value in the WR FA class.

If the giants trade the #2 and pick up more picks is a guy like Fitzpatrick to be considered as a Single high FS or the kid from Florida state maybe ?

even after extending Beckham and Collins. If they take a QB at 2 they will have the benefit of paying their starting QB well below market value for 4 years in which they could use that freed up money to improve the rest of their roster.

Evaporates quickly after giving Beckham/Collins deals and year 2 of any FAs signed this year.

is increasingly creeping up to the point where it has little constraint anymore.

There are so many techniques being used to restructure contracts and have bad ones go off the books, coupled with the cap increasing rapidly every year, and we are almost closer to the days of no cap than the early days of the cap where constraint was a real and troubling issue.

I keep trying to point this out when posters complain about the onerous salaries or the bitchfest over the $200M given out to the D two years ago.

In terms of a true impact, there was little to none on the ability to make moves.

It seems like you need a cap expert to make this whole thing work. Sign whom you need and avoid cap hell. Abrams has done a good job and I'm glad he stayed.

In comment 13833116 gidiefor said:

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are looking at a multiple year rebuild -- I think they are going to strike with 3 or 4 key FA moves this year and try to be very competitive my prediction 2 Olineman will be signed to significant contracts at least 2 other Olineman signed to mid to low range contracts 1 or 2 LBs will be signed to mid to high range range contracts at least 1 significant veteran RB will be signed to mid to high range contract 2 DBs will be signed to mid to low range contracts

I think so as well. Especially if they really believe Eli has some juice left. Not to mention the OL will need the overhaul regardless of Eli, rookie QB, Webb .... A vet QB drops from the sky... etc.

We have 3 pass catchers OBJ, Shep & EE barring they can get healthy just need a true #2 WR.

Question is DB and DE depth and as mentioned a LB.

It can be done in 2 yrs 1 with a couple of HRs on the OL and our health stays ups.

Thanks

In comment 13833257 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is increasingly creeping up to the point where it has little constraint anymore. There are so many techniques being used to restructure contracts and have bad ones go off the books, coupled with the cap increasing rapidly every year, and we are almost closer to the days of no cap than the early days of the cap where constraint was a real and troubling issue. I keep trying to point this out when posters complain about the onerous salaries or the bitchfest over the $200M given out to the D two years ago. In terms of a true impact, there was little to none on the ability to make moves.

Ok, so let's try to sign LeVeon Bell, Nate Solder, Andrew Norwell, Nigel Bradham, Derrick Johnson, and Sammy Watkins this offseason. Let's also pay Beckham, Collins, Pugh, and Richburg.

If the salary cap didn't matter, it wouldn't exist.

have a lot of cap space by cutting all of our good players?

In comment 13833291 Go Terps said:

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Ok, so let's try to sign LeVeon Bell, Nate Solder, Andrew Norwell, Nigel Bradham, Derrick Johnson, and Sammy Watkins this offseason. Let's also pay Beckham, Collins, Pugh, and Richburg. If the salary cap didn't matter, it wouldn't exist.

Salary Cap:
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime...

the salary cap doesn't matter. I said it is actually closer now to the days of the cap-free times than the early days of the cap.

But accepting this means the majority of your bitching about contracts over the past two years has been practically useless.

And frankly, there are multiple ways to sign all those guys you mentioned - it would be extremely unlikely because some guys would demand a one-year deal and we'd need a complex mix of years vs. bonus $$ and guaranteed dollars, but from a cap way - there's a way to make it work.

The cap today only punishes teams who have poor cap experts, and we went from years in the 90's with half the league having to make significant personnel moves to get under the cap to 1 or 2 teams some years and no teams other years.

...it almost never does. Teams with competent cap managers like Abrams can consistently tweak contracts by restructuring deals, shifting bonus money, extending contracts into the future or make decisions on cap cuts for other priorities if they want/need to.

In comment 13833307 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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The cap today only punishes teams who have poor cap experts, and we went from years in the 90's with half the league having to make significant personnel moves to get under the cap to 1 or 2 teams some years and no teams other years.

It also punishes teams that draft poorly. You need to use cap space to plug roster holes.

the cap increases, for yrs and yrs teams have been using "cap space" as a reason to give fans for the owners not wanting to spend more. To the owners, teams are a business. Some owners like to spend a lot on their business's, some don't. They all have unique personalities and perspectives on how they want to run their business.

Supposedly the collective bargaining agreement forced teams to use the majority of their cap space. But that's looking like a load of bologna considering all the teams with massive available cap space the past few yrs.

My bitching has been because we have committed to building our team around non-elite players as if they were elite. The commitments we made to Vernon, JPP, and Jenkins were extremely foolish no matter how good a cap wizard Abrams is. We're tied to those guys and we have to hope they become something they've never been (or at least in JPP's case, not since 2011 and before blowing off a piece of his hand).

This team as currently constructed is a complete joke, and a large part of that is because we have committed to the players that we have. I know that "getting ourselves into cap hell" isn't a reality anymore...but still here we with a completely shitty roster and a locker room with some serious character questions in it.

Everyone was happy we fired Reese, but his mistakes are all still here and we can't move on because of the contracts he gave them.

In comment 13833312 Torrag said:

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...it almost never does. Teams with competent cap managers like Abrams can consistently tweak contracts by restructuring deals, shifting bonus money, extending contracts into the future or make decisions on cap cuts for other priorities if they want/need to.

Agreed, but Abrams is always thinking a few years down the road. How will actions taken this season affect the next few years?

In comment 13833325 Go Terps said:

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My bitching has been because we have committed to building our team around non-elite players as if they were elite. The commitments we made to Vernon, JPP, and Jenkins were extremely foolish no matter how good a cap wizard Abrams is. We're tied to those guys and we have to hope they become something they've never been (or at least in JPP's case, not since 2011 and before blowing off a piece of his hand). This team as currently constructed is a complete joke, and a large part of that is because we have committed to the players that we have. I know that "getting ourselves into cap hell" isn't a reality anymore...but still here we with a completely shitty roster and a locker room with some serious character questions in it. Everyone was happy we fired Reese, but his mistakes are all still here and we can't move on because of the contracts he gave them.

Yeah, Vernon sucks. He's only our best pass rusher by leaps and bounds. And yeah, that shitty Jenkins who's the only shutdown corner in the NFCE. Those signings man... I like that you didn't mention Snacks among those. He's a waste too, only the best run defender in football.... Wah wah wah...

But the key distinction - even as you pointed it out - is that the roster is a mess, not because of the salary cap preventing moves, but because Reese made the wrong moves.

That's a huge difference. And I think we'll agree to disagree about the defensive $$ allocation. We got 2 Pro Bowlers out of the deal, didn't have any adverse cap ramifications, and after this year we can get contracts off the books if we need to.

don't look so hot is that they are on the field too often and both have dealt with injuries.

but they aren't nearly as tight as some people think they are. There are also tons of levers to pull in order to create more space or to manipulate the current number. Most of the time, you are going to have to pay the piper eventually, but you can take that hit in 1 year and then start fresh. For example, there are some that bitched about JPP's contract, but there are tons of things we could do to fix it.

4 year deal/62M total

I'm not sold that JPP isn't worth that money, but if he has another year like last, we could easily get out of the deal after next season and SAVE 10M on the cap. If we hold off to the following season, we can get out and save $15M on the cap. If JPP stays healthy and has a good season, we could extend him and turn his salary into a bonus and cut his cap number in half. Tons of things to do to manipulate the cap number.

That being said, teams need to be careful with all the big contracts and ladder the "outs" so that we don't have too much dead money in any given year. Not all that difficult to do.

I think people are underestimating the fact that dirt cheap contributors like Kennard and Cockrell are free agents, these are additional holes that people aren't factoring into the cap. We have an entire OL and LB unit to fill. If the Giants cut DRC for cap space, corner is baren behind Jenkins. We still need a FS, WR depth and RB. A lot of the cap benefits are based on Eli coming off the books in the near future...but we won't be competitive without a QB...so you're either extending Eli, overpaying a mediocre FA at 25m+/yr or devoting your limited cost controlled draft resources replacing him. OBJ and Collins will be extended to position high contracts or franchised at a cap constraining number. I don't think it's as peachy as some make it out to be, that number will dry up quickly.

is the OL. Reese's biggest mistake was NOT spending on the OL and drafting/signing bad players. Not spending money on Vernon, JPP and Jenkins(which is ridiculous). That didn't prevent us from fixing the line, Reese just decided that it didn't need to be fixed.

It seems to me that everything here is structured so that 2018 is one of those "pay the piper" years and it's really not that bad at all.

Harrison has been the best player on the team since he got here.

But anyone that thinks the JPP and Vernon contracts have worked out is fucking high. And as for Jenkins, I'll point you to Sy's game review from San Francisco:

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One of the reasons many Rams fans and teammates were not upset to see Janoris Jenkins leave in free agency last year was…well…exactly what we saw Sunday. Jenkins, for the most part, has been an outstanding CB for NYG since signing in 2016. However a suspension handed down by Ben McAdoo last week and a horrid 2017 season for the Giants have taken the wind out of his sails and it showed up in San Francisco. Jenkins was torched deep, intermediate, and short all afternoon. He missed three tackles, two of which were I would say a result of less than 30% effort. It was an embarrassment and he should have been benched mid-game.

When you build your team around the likes of Janoris Jenkins it's no wonder you go 3-13.

In comment 13833345 Keith said:

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is the OL. Reese's biggest mistake was NOT spending on the OL and drafting/signing bad players. Not spending money on Vernon, JPP and Jenkins(which is ridiculous). That didn't prevent us from fixing the line, Reese just decided that it didn't need to be fixed.

+1000

People want to blame the whole roster for a losing season. They wouldn't do that two years ago...

however it's been noted that he was very injured. I'll give him a pass on that.

In comment 13833349 Go Terps said:

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Harrison has been the best player on the team since he got here. But anyone that thinks the JPP and Vernon contracts have worked out is fucking high. And as for Jenkins, I'll point you to Sy's game review from San Francisco: Quote: One of the reasons many Rams fans and teammates were not upset to see Janoris Jenkins leave in free agency last year was…well…exactly what we saw Sunday. Jenkins, for the most part, has been an outstanding CB for NYG since signing in 2016. However a suspension handed down by Ben McAdoo last week and a horrid 2017 season for the Giants have taken the wind out of his sails and it showed up in San Francisco. Jenkins was torched deep, intermediate, and short all afternoon. He missed three tackles, two of which were I would say a result of less than 30% effort. It was an embarrassment and he should have been benched mid-game. When you build your team around the likes of Janoris Jenkins it's no wonder you go 3-13.

So you're just going to ignore Jenkins' absolutely stellar 2016 season? What a joke you've become, GT.

But because we paid him like a top talent, you expect him to single handedly turn the pass defense around?

You're smarter than this. This is just another opportunity for you to bitch about the big money being thrown around the NFL- even though its the same it has always been. Talent gets paid.

In comment 13833362 Giantology said:

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But because we paid him like a top talent, you expect him to single handedly turn the pass defense around? You're smarter than this. This is just another opportunity for you to bitch about the big money being thrown around the NFL- even though its the same it has always been. Talent gets paid.

+1

The shtick is tired and just not correct.

Yeah he was good in 2016. I said so myself here. But he showed in 2017 he's not someone that can be counted on.

The only joke here is watching homer fans stand up for highly paid underperformers on a a piece of shit 3-13 team.

Janoris Jenkins was a top 5 CB in 2016.

Pointing to one game where he was significantly hurt as proof that it was a bad signing is... silly.

Cmon. He's a fantastic player. This was not even close to a poor signing.

He'd fold every hand until he gets aces, see the flop, and then fold to a big bet when he doesn't flop quads.

even Sy points it out:

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Jenkins, for the most part, has been an outstanding CB for NYG since signing in 2016. However a suspension handed down by Ben McAdoo last week and a horrid 2017 season for the Giants have taken the wind out of his sails and it showed up in San Francisco

I think everyone quit on the team last year, fans included. THAT'S how bad McAdoo was last year in the way he handled things. Reese too.

I'm not going to hold a performance against SF in a lost season when he was playing through injury to outweigh a season where he was our best CB (and probably was still our best CB last year).

We had 3 of our 4 top CB's suspended last year. That isn't all on their character, just like if I said it was all on the coaches - that too would be an incorrect statement.

Basically, you hated spending $200M and you hate some of the characters on the team. I get that. But you shouldn't let it cloud every post and stance you take. the net effect of spending $200M has been positive and it hasn't caused cap issues.

You'll probably talk about cap constraints when resigning Odell, but the crux of your argument won't be rooted in a real calamity. It will be rooted in the fact you don't like the dude.

I like you as a poster - but I'll push back on these types of arguments because they have no teeth.

In comment 13833349 Go Terps said:

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Harrison has been the best player on the team since he got here. But anyone that thinks the JPP and Vernon contracts have worked out is fucking high. And as for Jenkins, I'll point you to Sy's game review from San Francisco: Quote: One of the reasons many Rams fans and teammates were not upset to see Janoris Jenkins leave in free agency last year was…well…exactly what we saw Sunday. Jenkins, for the most part, has been an outstanding CB for NYG since signing in 2016. However a suspension handed down by Ben McAdoo last week and a horrid 2017 season for the Giants have taken the wind out of his sails and it showed up in San Francisco. Jenkins was torched deep, intermediate, and short all afternoon. He missed three tackles, two of which were I would say a result of less than 30% effort. It was an embarrassment and he should have been benched mid-game. When you build your team around the likes of Janoris Jenkins it's no wonder you go 3-13.

Terps, I agree with you that maybe Jenkins and Vernon are not worth the money we pay them currently, but we had a ton of space, we had DESPERATE need and those were the market rates for the positions. If we didn't pay what we did, someone else was paying them close to that. They immediately helped out and though last year was a disaster, I think that Vernon is currently our best DE and no one else is letting a similar talent or better get to Free agency and Jenkins is a head case but with DB's and WR's you have those. He will bounce back and prove to be an asset with a more disciplinary atmosphere. JPP is the worst of the signings and if you let him go, again it won't hurt us. I think you have to take a look at the big picture. Its about how you get better. and in 2015 we couldn't be choosy about our FA signings. We had to get a lot better on D.

the guy does an excellent job structuring deals and maneuvering the cap. The Giants have a ton of flexibility in 2019 and 2020 thanks to the structure of those deals. Nice to have a good cap guy in the building.

I had no problems spending the $200 million. We should spending at or close to the cap every season...we shouldn't be leaving resources on the table. My problem is how we spent it. It was a reactionary panic move to 2015, and resulted in us paying some players like they're better than they actually are.

And as for Beckham, yeah I obviously think he's a punk. He's a player I don't enjoy having to root for on Sunday. I make no bones about that.

But I also don't think he's a winning player...at least not on this team. I think he would do well for himself to get a change of scenery and get to a team that will make him grow up already. I don't think he's going to do it here. I think everyone from Mara on down in the front office and coaching staff has failed with Beckham.

as if you need to be a stoic player to be successful:

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I think he would do well for himself to get a change of scenery and get to a team that will make him grow up already

Nobody has failed Beckham. He doesn't even need to "grow up". He just keep needs to be the prolific player he is.

Frankly, he was quiet last year, because he didn't play, and the team was far worse off for it.

You have some false equivalency in your mind that TD celebrations or being a punk on the field somehow means the guy doesn't care to win and slacks off, yet there are so many examples of his hard work that contradict that.

You know who used to walk up and down the sideline screaming at guys and who actually went after teammates a couple of times in the locker room when the offense was crapping the bed? LT. And for all we know he was coked out at the time. And he didn't even work his ass off. He was just a mean SOB. And a Giant legend,

Having Beckham "grow up", to whatever subjective standard that is supposed to be, doesn't ensure success, just as him being a punk, to the same subjective standard, doesn't ensure the team will lose.

what is more likely true is that subtraction of an elite player will almost certainly have an impact.

and restructure some contracts last year

In comment 13833402 Go Terps said:

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And as for Beckham, yeah I obviously think he's a punk. He's a player I don't enjoy having to root for on Sunday. I make no bones about that.

You don't have to root for him. You've made it quite clear that you think there are a lot of players on this team that are tough for you to root for. I think there's a pretty simple solution for that which is completely within your control.

In comment 13833412 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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as if you need to be a stoic player to be successful: Quote: I think he would do well for himself to get a change of scenery and get to a team that will make him grow up already Nobody has failed Beckham. He doesn't even need to "grow up". He just keep needs to be the prolific player he is. Frankly, he was quiet last year, because he didn't play, and the team was far worse off for it. You have some false equivalency in your mind that TD celebrations or being a punk on the field somehow means the guy doesn't care to win and slacks off, yet there are so many examples of his hard work that contradict that. You know who used to walk up and down the sideline screaming at guys and who actually went after teammates a couple of times in the locker room when the offense was crapping the bed? LT. And for all we know he was coked out at the time. And he didn't even work his ass off. He was just a mean SOB. And a Giant legend, Having Beckham "grow up", to whatever subjective standard that is supposed to be, doesn't ensure success, just as him being a punk, to the same subjective standard, doesn't ensure the team will lose. what is more likely true is that subtraction of an elite player will almost certainly have an impact.

I couldn't agree more. And with LT there was a ton of off field stuff that if it happened today, we'd be talking about a different career arc for him. Odell is passionate and you see that both on the field and on the sideline. He has done nothing off the field to disparage the Giants or himself and Id say his lone transgression was the boat trip. Hell I'll take that if he can help get us to the next superbowl parade.

In comment 13833116 gidiefor said:

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are looking at a multiple year rebuild -- I think they are going to strike with 3 or 4 key FA moves this year and try to be very competitive my prediction 2 Olineman will be signed to significant contracts at least 2 other Olineman signed to mid to low range contracts 1 or 2 LBs will be signed to mid to high range range contracts at least 1 significant veteran RB will be signed to mid to high range contract 2 DBs will be signed to mid to low range contracts

My take is
2 OL signed to significant contracts
1 to mid to low range OL contracts
2 Draft picks

1 or 2 LBs signed to mid to high range range contracts
1 draft pick

1 vet DT
1 draft pick

No significant running back via FA. One draft choice.
1 draft pick

1 DB high range (FS)
1 DB mid to low range contracts
1 draft pick (later unless we trade down)

1 vet WR to medium-high contract or a prove it deal. Marshall cut.

JPP, Vernon were paid as if they they were elite. To this point, they haven't shown it. They are solid, but not elite, so I get GT's gripe. Back in 2016 the mixture of desperation from the Giants (especially Reese) to turn around the ship / defense forced them to make reactionary moves in as calculated way as possible based on youth and player potential, hoping the players would become elite. Some would say that's a big mistake to pay for what hasn't been yet, but it's what they did and how they sold us, and it's half worked.

2016 Jenkins and Snacks were incredible. Vernon was solid, hurt, or meh. JPP mostly meh
2017 Snacks still incredible. Vernon solid, hurt, or meh, Jenkins falls off. JPP mostly meh

Definitely a mixed bag, so no, it didn't really justify the $200M yet. Did the Giants have a better alternative path without those players? I'm not sure of that, as I don't think we make a wildcard berth in 2016 without them. They were also all on a 3-13 team last year. Again, mixed bag. So we have, based on this article, one more year to see what this quad of players has and who sticks after this.

Last year was such a glorious disaster, no one knows the level of behind-the-scenes frustration that might have gone on to make the secondary lose their shit, and the team collectively crap the bed.

I am more of Terp's belief to not idiotically spend money above a players worth, but let's see what the jury says this year, and something tells me Gettleman will be willing to do the right thing by this team in making prudent moves, rather than what's selfish like we saw in the late moves of Reese and McAdoo trying to save their skin.

Luckily we aren't really handicapped despite the $200M spend, tho I would caution on overcommitting in the next few years since if we're fortunate enough to land another franchise QB, they will need to eventually come on the books too.

JPP is an elite run defender at his position and Vernon is an elite rusher. The sack numbers might not be what you'd like to see but that's the fact of the matter.

Snacks is the best run defender in the game.

And Jenkins is as good a corner as you're going to get.

The team sucked last year, and it rotted from McAdoo on down and that played a role in our perception of the team. But that talent is there on defense. It actually is.

In comment 13833084 Doomster said:

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The fact most of their high priced talent, Snacks excluded, did not perform up to expectations is no concern? And if you get rid of them to create cap space next year, you have to pay big bucks to replace them.... Who cares about 2019? What about 2018? We do not have a lot of cap space to make significant moves this year........ Moves made depend on the direction this team takes.....play for now or play for the future.....if you play for now and make the wrong moves, the dark ages continue....

Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

If JPP and Vernon don't improve/stay healthy, they will NEVER see all of the money. People keep looking at NFL contracts like they are gtd, but they aren't. This is the NFL where you can rid yourself of bad contracts fairly easily.

I'll give Jackrabbit a pass for last year. I was pissed when it looked like he quit, but obviously he was battling a major injury. He was elite in 2016 and then got hurt. Thats a contract that the Giants still make, knowing what we know.

In comment 13833114 UConn4523 said:

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Beckham’s cost is stupid.

Most of the time when fans bitch about the cap or money it's stupid. Broken record.

Money is a factor. Cap is a factor. It's not THE factor that many money obsessed fans live by. Not even close.

The salary cap and player contracts is the most annoying, overstated talking point in the sports landscape today and by a wide margin. It has clouded judgments on player value and skewed what's important.

90% of the time, a player making slightly more than he is "worth" doesn't matter in the least. Won't stop fans from getting the vapors.

In comment 13833649 Keith said:

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If JPP and Vernon don't improve/stay healthy, they will NEVER see all of the money. People keep looking at NFL contracts like they are gtd, but they aren't. This is the NFL where you can rid yourself of bad contracts fairly easily.

Yeah, the $200M tag gets tiresome... this isn't Major League Baseball.

Of course the cap creates restrictions. But not anywhere near to the degree people seem to think.

I remember every single year, people would watch the Eagles maneuver their cap and say "this is gonna catch up to them sooner than later and they're going to be in cap hell!"

Except it really didn't happen.

When you have a good cap guy in the FO, you can pretty easily spend and avoid cap hell.

I agree, and it’s one of the many reasons why consuming most of NFL offseason media coverage has become unbearable. Everything needs to get boiled down to a 15-word sound bite and everything gets tremendously misleading in oversimplification.

There ought to be a more ubiquitous metric that objectively analyzes each contract based on it’s structure and the player’s age/position to boil it down to an expected number of years and $ earned.

Something like modified duration on interest rate products.

and teams still found a way to fuck around with the good ship lollipop. They would low ball players. The players would hold out and in many cases hold out all summer long. Then that player inevitably got hurt and/or had a bad year.

I don't think the roster is a mess at all. I think the OL needs work and we need to find a very good RB. The biggest thing wrong with the 2016-2017 Giants was the HC. The Giants had no direction on offense and no leadership. They were a house of cards. It happens all the time where a veteran team that expects to win starts to slowly fall apart and before you know it these veteran players check out. Many of he best players in NFL history have checked out or failed to buy in. This happened in 91-92. It happened in 2017.

ONce the 2017 Giants knew they had no shot they adopted a business decision mentality. Doesn't make it right, but it happened. Also doesn't mean those same players won't help this team reinvent itself in 2018. We've seen it before.

you love to completely destroy JPP and Vernon while singing the praises of Von Miller.

JPP had more tackles than Miller last year. Miller had ONE more sack.

Is Miller hot smelly garbage too?

JPP and Vernon are productive DEs in this league. Compliment them with more talent. Watch the D thrive. Those two DEs are as good against the run as any DE combo going. Add talent to the LBs and Edge rushers. COMPLIMENT THEM.

In comment 13833666 bigbluehoya said:

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I agree, and it’s one of the many reasons why consuming most of NFL offseason media coverage has become unbearable. Everything needs to get boiled down to a 15-word sound bite and everything gets tremendously misleading in oversimplification. There ought to be a more ubiquitous metric that objectively analyzes each contract based on it’s structure and the player’s age/position to boil it down to an expected number of years and $ earned. Something like modified duration on interest rate products.

You would hope that the sophisticated fan would understand this and wouldn't keep parroting the same stupid thing to try and diminish a guy like Odell or JPP, but that's not the case. Either certain people have no understanding of the cap or choose to speak in false narratives to make a point. It's not reality.

who fucking cares how much JPP and Vernon make? They will keep their jobs here if they stay on the field and produce. Ok fine, maybe they are overpaid but will anyone really give a shit if JPP is batting down a pass in the 4th quarter of a big game week 14 next season? No. We won't.

And he had good seasons after 2011 --but you consistently ignore that and post the same bs every other day. 2014 ring a bell? What about most of 2016 before he got hurt?

The Giants paid Vernon and JPP big money because they are two way DEs. They aren't the best passrushers in the NFL but they are good two way players and those guys are hard to find. Perhaps the Giants could find a way to lessen their snap counts in 2018...that would be nice.

Afternoon guys: Interesting discussion again. In fact, there is no mystery as to how we got here. In the 2015 season, the Giants offense, which the team had been meticulously rebuilding, took off and was one of the best in the league. However, the defense sucked. So with Eli looking at a 3-4 year window of opportunity given his age and contract, they went out and literally bought the best defense money could buy by signing JPP, Vernon, Snacks and Jackrabbit to what are essentially 3-4 year contracts that would let the Giants off the hook around the time that Eli would be moving on. And that defense played great in 2016, but for whatever reason the offense took a major step backwards. The peanut gallery tended to blame the OL - which for the record was the same unit that they had in the top 5-10 year in 2015 - although, as I have indicated in the past, my sources reported that the organization put most of the blame on Eli.

Entering 2017, the hope/expectation was that the D would play at the somewhere near the same level as the previous year and that the offense in general, and Eli in particular would have a bounce back year. Instead, the offense continued to struggle while the defense just never played with the anywhere near same intensity as 2016. Who's to blame; who knows; my own sense is that this is sports and shit happens.

Interestingly, my sense is while the obviously have to find some bodies to fill out the OL, the key to the 2018 season is the defense. If they can play back to the 2016 level then the Giants could be reasonably competitive again this fall. And there is no reason they shouldn't. There is talent on that side of the ball: Snacks, Collins and Jackrabbit are each legit Pro Bowl possibilities and if healthy and motivated JPP and Vernon - both of whom may be playing for their 2019 contracts - are as good as just about any DE combo in the league.

At the same time, though, the Giants are clearly in a transition period from the Eli era to whatever comes next and 2018 will really be more a transition year so one would really like to see moves - whether its the draft or free agency - to have something of a longer term perspective than usual.

Should be an interesting year.

In comment 13833649 Keith said:

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If JPP and Vernon don't improve/stay healthy, they will NEVER see all of the money. People keep looking at NFL contracts like they are gtd, but they aren't. This is the NFL where you can rid yourself of bad contracts fairly easily.

The $200M also gets thrown around like it’s $200M per season. It’s just a strange obsession some fans have. Let’s add up all the years of every contract and bitch incessantly about a team spending money well within the cap. Never mind that much of that money will never be seen by the players.

when fans rate a player based on how much he's getting paid, especially in uncapped sports.

The Vernon comments are particularly frustrating because when he's healthy he's very good, and he's exactly the model people here screamed for. Young player coming off of a rookie contract instead of an aging guy at the end of the string.

Heck, every guy Reese signed with the $200M fit that bill.

But really, the $$ shouldn't matter to the fans, let the cap guys figure it out. I just never understood talk about guys overdrafted or overpaid, and a lot of times it is subjective.

Not to pick on GT again, but he was commenting this week about how the Panthers overdrafted McCaffery. The guy ended up with 80 receptions and was a focal point of the offense as a rookie. He was a key reason they made the postseason, so does it matter where he was drafted? Panthers weren't going to get him a round later.

Same goes with salary. I'm not sitting here going, "Nice pick Jenkins, but you should have another two before the game's over because you are making a shitload of cash!".

It isn't logical at all.

In comment 13833689 djm said:

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who fucking cares how much JPP and Vernon make? They will keep their jobs here if they stay on the field and produce. Ok fine, maybe they are overpaid but will anyone really give a shit if JPP is batting down a pass in the 4th quarter of a big game week 14 next season? No. We won't. And he had good seasons after 2011 --but you consistently ignore that and post the same bs every other day. 2014 ring a bell? What about most of 2016 before he got hurt? The Giants paid Vernon and JPP big money because they are two way DEs. They aren't the best passrushers in the NFL but they are good two way players and those guys are hard to find. Perhaps the Giants could find a way to lessen their snap counts in 2018...that would be nice.

Quote:

Terps and some others were right about JPP djm : 10/1/2017 7:48 pm : link He's a good but not great player. Money should have been used elsewhere. I hate everything. Fuck spags too.

Link - ( New Window )

McCaffrey isn't a bad player by any stretch, but you could see that Panthers were struggling, especially early in the season, to incorporate him into the offense. They were trying very hard to shoe horn in plays for him; I made that point backing up my feeling that Shula had a tough job in 2017.

You're right...we shouldn't care about the money...it isn't ours.

What we should care about is Kelechi Osemele and Mitchell Schwartz being All-Pro offensive linemen elsewhere for less guaranteed money combined than what we gave Vernon. And meanwhile our offensive line is a complete joke to the point where Gettleman brought it up in his introductory press conference.

It's not about the money, it's what could be done with it.

then would we have kept a shitty defense and then complain too?

Quote:

It's not about the money, it's what could be done with it.

It really isn't what can be done with the money. It is that a team that is strong in making good scouting decisions on personnel should do well, no matter the salary implications.

As pointed out above, our roster construction fell apart because of the OL. But not because we were cheap - because we missed evaluating the players correctly.

We could've brought Schwartz and Whitworth and whomever else to the team, but if we then limped to 8-8, people would pick a few players and ride them as being overpaid stiffs.

If players are going to be ridden, it should be because they suck. Markus Kuhn. Matt Dodge. Jerrel Jernigan. Larry Donnell. Those guys were mostly steaming piles of crap, but their cap allocation wasn't the reason - they basically made peanuts.

I don't think it is offbase to argue that both Vernon and JPP are in the top half of the league at DE (I know I could at least make that argument), yet some treat them like they are Markus Kuhn because of what they make. Don't do that - do it on the merits of their play.

That 2016 spending spree was a mulligan for drafting like shit the prior 5 years. We were able to spend that money outside because we didn't have to bother resigning any of our own (discounting the weird JPP saga). That's the upside of drafting poorly, you give the fans a more exciting FA period.

The Giants should have spent money on the OL and at the end of the day, that's the main reason we were a huge disappointment last year. That's different from...we shouldn't have signed JPP and vernon, we should have signed a few good OL. Why couldn't we do both? The answer is that Reese doubled down on the stupid. He believed that the guys he had on the OL were good enough. He was wrong and it costs him his job.

In comment 13833758 Go Terps said:

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You're right...we shouldn't care about the money...it isn't ours. What we should care about is Kelechi Osemele and Mitchell Schwartz being All-Pro offensive linemen elsewhere for less guaranteed money combined than what we gave Vernon. And meanwhile our offensive line is a complete joke to the point where Gettleman brought it up in his introductory press conference. It's not about the money, it's what could be done with it.

How do you know that Osemele and Schwartz would have come to the Giants? How do you know the Giants didn’t try? You compare players contracts like this all the time but it’s just not that black and white. Heck, many times you compare to players that have never been FAs and have never been available. You search around the league to find all of the absolute best values and throw it around like it’s easy for the Giants to just raid teams of their players. Or just snap their fingers and convince players to sign with the Giants.

In comment 13833780 AcesUp said:

Quote:

That 2016 spending spree was a mulligan for drafting like shit the prior 5 years. We were able to spend that money outside because we didn't have to bother resigning any of our own (discounting the weird JPP saga). That's the upside of drafting poorly, you give the fans a more exciting FA period.

This is 100% accurate, and almost always overlooked. Had Reese drafted Vernon, Jenkins and Harrison, they still would have reached FA when they did, and we'd still have had to make the same decisions on whether to sign them. People are quick to claim that it's because of the poor drafting that the Giants had to spend as much as they did without acknowledging that it's also why they were able to to spend as much as they did.

You can make the case that if there was a more consistent pipeline of talent in general, they might have only signed 1-2 of them rather than all 3, but that's mostly conjecture.

It isn't that simple. Their cost matters, because it impacts the way the rest of the roster is constructed. Big money spent in one area is going to mean less spent in another. The Giants spent huge at defensive end, and that position is not carrying the defense to the extent it should. It's not enough to be in the top half of the league at their position, if they are at all. We aren't going to pay a star free agent at a position of need this offseason (say, LeVeon Bell) in part because we are paying Vernon and JPP.

A couple months ago I started a thread calling attention to Spotrac's player valuation tool. Here's how they describe it:

Quote:

An up-to-date look at the value rankings of all active NFL players based on a mathematical comparison of their current average salary against their cumulative "production points". These points are made up of major statistical categories relevant to that player's position. From there, we generate a z-score for each player among their position, to rank them with a "value". This True Value rating is what you see below. By default players must have played in 60% of available snaps in order to qualify.

I'm not touting this as the end all be all; it's just a tool that should be used along with other qualitative and quantitative measures to try to tell the story.

According to this one particular tool, Vernon ranked 71st and JPP 74th in the NFL amongst defensive ends in performance v. salary.

Again, just one tool and not the end all be all. But if you go through the team rankings and player rankings it looks like there is some correlation between these valuations and win-loss records.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13833799 Go Terps said:

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It isn't that simple. Their cost matters, because it impacts the way the rest of the roster is constructed. Big money spent in one area is going to mean less spent in another. The Giants spent huge at defensive end, and that position is not carrying the defense to the extent it should. It's not enough to be in the top half of the league at their position, if they are at all. We aren't going to pay a star free agent at a position of need this offseason (say, LeVeon Bell) in part because we are paying Vernon and JPP. A couple months ago I started a thread calling attention to Spotrac's player valuation tool. Here's how they describe it: Quote: An up-to-date look at the value rankings of all active NFL players based on a mathematical comparison of their current average salary against their cumulative "production points". These points are made up of major statistical categories relevant to that player's position. From there, we generate a z-score for each player among their position, to rank them with a "value". This True Value rating is what you see below. By default players must have played in 60% of available snaps in order to qualify. I'm not touting this as the end all be all; it's just a tool that should be used along with other qualitative and quantitative measures to try to tell the story. According to this one particular tool, Vernon ranked 71st and JPP 74th in the NFL amongst defensive ends in performance v. salary. Again, just one tool and not the end all be all. But if you go through the team rankings and player rankings it looks like there is some correlation between these valuations and win-loss records. Link - ( New Window )

That's an interesting tool, and it definitely supports your view on their contracts. The only observation that I'd make is that it seems to weight sacks very heavily with less value placed on run defense for DEs (the actual formula is not shown, is it?). Now, maybe that actually is the proper weighting for DE valuation, but if not, the tool is almost certainly bound to undervalue both JPP and OV.

That said, their contracts are such that they're not likely to represent a good value relative to lesser paid players. Since they're already paid like stars, they're going to get dinged for anything less. And I realize that's exactly your point, and I'm not disputing it.

I'm curious what you think a fair value for them would be. This is completely separate from the argument of whether or not you fundamentally agree with spending so much on one position group - it's really more, if we fully concede that JPP and OV are overpaid, how much do you estimate that they're overpaid by? And once that is determined, what is the opportunity cost that the overpayment value represents?

In comment 13833794 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 13833780 AcesUp said: Quote: That 2016 spending spree was a mulligan for drafting like shit the prior 5 years. We were able to spend that money outside because we didn't have to bother resigning any of our own (discounting the weird JPP saga). That's the upside of drafting poorly, you give the fans a more exciting FA period. This is 100% accurate, and almost always overlooked. Had Reese drafted Vernon, Jenkins and Harrison, they still would have reached FA when they did, and we'd still have had to make the same decisions on whether to sign them. People are quick to claim that it's because of the poor drafting that the Giants had to spend as much as they did without acknowledging that it's also why they were able to to spend as much as they did. You can make the case that if there was a more consistent pipeline of talent in general, they might have only signed 1-2 of them rather than all 3, but that's mostly conjecture.

It's all about perspective. Resigning a known commodity during the season or prior to FA doesn't bring the headlines or attention like signing the #1 DE on the open market. If we simply drafted Vernon and gave him that contract prior to FA, there would be 1 sticky at the top of this site and not 50 different threads leading up to and after. I always look at Vernon, Jenkins and Snacks as pseudo mulligans for DaMontre Moore, Prince and Hankins. Yes, Abrams is good but he's not a magician, he was simply working without the burden of having to extend any of his own players. I'm hoping that changes.

In comment 13833373 adamg said:

Quote:

He'd fold every hand until he gets aces, see the flop, and then fold to a big bet when he doesn't flop quads.

If you'd ever played cards with him, you'd know that's not true at all. I don't think I've seen him fold a hand in 15 years.

.

I still can't believe his plan was Hart & Flowers.

Seriously?

Reese & Ross over-allocation of resources to athletes at skill positions crushed this team.

Draft success is fleeting. Injuries play a part for sure.

I'll never let go of Reese drafting David Wilson. Wilson was awesome - no doubt. However, we needed OL. Our OL had aged. McKenzie certainly was winding down.

I was at a panthers game where we got blown out, shut out and the interior OL crumbled with 2 injuries. It was the worst live game I've been to as a Giants fan. Manning was getting destroyed.

That game was in 2013. 2013! The fact that wasn't fixed by 2015 is a joke.

This regime is going to end that.

Reese seemed incapable of extending anyone prior to their contract ending. I'm sure this is not accurate, but it feels this way.

I'd like to see the Giants prioritize prior to FA
1) Resigning Cockrell
2) Extending Collins
3) Resign Fluker

At FA
4) Get at least 1 OL Caliber starter
5) Get some LBers / hybrid dbs that are fast , phsyical and are multiple and fit into Betchers system

In comment 13833948 DavidinBMNY said:

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I still can't believe his plan was Hart & Flowers. Seriously? Reese & Ross over-allocation of resources to athletes at skill positions crushed this team. Draft success is fleeting. Injuries play a part for sure. I'll never let go of Reese drafting David Wilson. Wilson was awesome - no doubt. However, we needed OL. Our OL had aged. McKenzie certainly was winding down. I was at a panthers game where we got blown out, shut out and the interior OL crumbled with 2 injuries. It was the worst live game I've been to as a Giants fan. Manning was getting destroyed. That game was in 2013. 2013! The fact that wasn't fixed by 2015 is a joke. This regime is going to end that.

I don't think you can fairly say that the OL failed due to lack of resources - they did use two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick (plus a 6th and 7th round pick) on the OL in recent years. They just didn't pick the right guys. If Flowers had turned into Tyron Smith, Pugh into Zack Martin and Richburg into Travis Frederick, would the Giants have an OL problem?

Quote:

I'm curious what you think a fair value for them would be. This is completely separate from the argument of whether or not you fundamentally agree with spending so much on one position group - it's really more, if we fully concede that JPP and OV are overpaid, how much do you estimate that they're overpaid by? And once that is determined, what is the opportunity cost that the overpayment value represents?

It's difficult to say. JPP is certainly wildly overpaid considering the physical injuries he's had as well as the questions that have been there from time to time about effort level. If you look at Cameron Jordan (a better player than both JPP and Vernon IMO), he signed a 5 year $55M contract in 2015. To me that would have been the absolute ceiling for Vernon. For JPP I wouldn't have offered more than $4 or $5M a year for a year or two.

In 2015 Brandon Graham signed a 4 year, $26M contract extension with Philly. Compare that with what we gave JPP: 1 year $10M in 2016 and then 4 years $62M in 2017. JPP may have been better than his draft classmate Graham in 2011, but that was several years and a half a hand ago. I'd argue Graham is clearly a better player than JPP is now, and his 2018 cap hit will be almost $10M less. That's tough to swallow...$10M is a lot of cap space.

But we were desperate and flush with cash following 2015, and the agents knew it. So here we are today.

It's the second most expensive position on the field. There are other positions, like TE, G, or S, where "spending huge" is a completely different ball game.

I pointed out the $10M difference in 2018 salary cap between JPP and Brandon Graham. Here are some players with a $10M or less cap hit in 2018:

Malcolm Jenkins
Harrison Smith
Travis Kelce
Mike Iupati
Keenan Allen
Snacks
Kam Chancellor
Geno Atkins
Zack Martin
Larry Worford
LeSean McCoy

That should put the absurdity of JPP's (and Vernon's) contracts in perspective...in 2018, JPP (or Vernon) = Brandon Graham + any one of those guys.

In comment 13833955 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

I don't think you can fairly say that the OL failed due to lack of resources - they did use two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick (plus a 6th and 7th round pick) on the OL in recent years. They just didn't pick the right guys. If Flowers had turned into Tyron Smith, Pugh into Zack Martin and Richburg into Travis Frederick, would the Giants have an OL problem?

No, but I bet Richburg's wife would be really confused.

In comment 13833740 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 13833689 djm said: Quote: who fucking cares how much JPP and Vernon make? They will keep their jobs here if they stay on the field and produce. Ok fine, maybe they are overpaid but will anyone really give a shit if JPP is batting down a pass in the 4th quarter of a big game week 14 next season? No. We won't. And he had good seasons after 2011 --but you consistently ignore that and post the same bs every other day. 2014 ring a bell? What about most of 2016 before he got hurt? The Giants paid Vernon and JPP big money because they are two way DEs. They aren't the best passrushers in the NFL but they are good two way players and those guys are hard to find. Perhaps the Giants could find a way to lessen their snap counts in 2018...that would be nice. Quote: Terps and some others were right about JPP djm : 10/1/2017 7:48 pm : link He's a good but not great player. Money should have been used elsewhere. I hate everything. Fuck spags too. Link - ( New Window )

Wow you got me.. in the throes of the shittiest nyg seaaon ever I questioned everything Giants related including jpp.

Great. What's the point? He's still a good live body at DE.

It stands to reason that the Giants might have been better off signing a top flight OT rather than re-sign jpp. I could stand by that but I'm not going to dwell on it either and part of me is hopeful that jpp can help this team win again in 2018.

I stated my blueprint for last off season before it began. They didn't do what I wanted.

In comment 13833859 rsjem1979 said:

Quote:

In comment 13833373 adamg said: Quote: He'd fold every hand until he gets aces, see the flop, and then fold to a big bet when he doesn't flop quads. If you'd ever played cards with him, you'd know that's not true at all. I don't think I've seen him fold a hand in 15 years.

I fold shit and bet aggressively on anything good. Table won't be boring if I'm playing.

Use the bet as a weapon.

In comment 13833982 Go Terps said:

Quote:

It's the second most expensive position on the field. There are other positions, like TE, G, or S, where "spending huge" is a completely different ball game. I pointed out the $10M difference in 2018 salary cap between JPP and Brandon Graham. Here are some players with a $10M or less cap hit in 2018: Malcolm Jenkins Harrison Smith Travis Kelce Mike Iupati Keenan Allen Snacks Kam Chancellor Geno Atkins Zack Martin Larry Worford LeSean McCoy That should put the absurdity of JPP's (and Vernon's) contracts in perspective...in 2018, JPP (or Vernon) = Brandon Graham + any one of those guys.

You're still formulating arguments that show a lack of understanding of the cap.

First, these guys all play assorted positions - so the positional values are going to vary quite a bit. There are linemen, RB's, WR's, and DB's on that list.

Second, cap hits don't spread evenly. Just because these guys had a cap hit of 10M or less this year doesn't mean they do every year.

Allen signed his deal coming off a year where he missed half the season due to injury and then actually missed the entire following season. His cap hit jumps over 10M next year and the following year, as well.

Zack Martin just got his option picked up - his cap number is 100% going to be over 10M per year as soon as he gets his next contract. Zeiter's cap hits are 12-14M - Martin will get more.

Harrison Smith's cap hit hits 10M and over starting next year.

When Atkins signed his deal back in 2013, there weren't even any 4-3 DT's in the sport with a cap hit @ 11M or higher.

That list is quite frankly, meaningless. Most of those contracts were signed at different times, and the players all play different positions, and their cap hits aren't static from year to year.

Kelce signed a 6 year deal back in 2014.

If he were on the market right now, he would be made the highest paid C in the league and his cap hit would jump over 10M per year because that's what it would require.

You keep saying I don't get it and implying that you do, but continue to miss the point.

We have overspent foolishly for non-elite players at the worst possible positions to make such a mistake. If you can't grasp that I don't know what to tell you.

In comment 13834028 Go Terps said:

Quote:

You keep saying I don't get it and implying that you do, but continue to miss the point. We have overspent foolishly for non-elite players at the worst possible positions to make such a mistake. If you can't grasp that I don't know what to tell you.

All I am doing is pointing out that you proved nothing with that list and I showed you exactly why.

I'm not missing the point because you're not making one.

Listing players at a billion different positions than the ones you're complaining about and isolating single year cap hits is entirely fruitless.

Half of those deals were signed several years ago, most of those positions are less costly than pass rushers, and guys like Zack Martin are still on their rookie deals.

JPP and Vernon aren't prohibiting this team nearly as much as you think.

Either you can learn more about how the cap works or keep making foolish arguments like the one you tried above.

Your call.

And NY tried to snag him that offseason but he choose to go back to Philly. And what I mean by they got lucky is check his numbers before and after the signing and you will see what I mean... and FYI you are so wrong all over this thread

Several of the deals I've talked about were signed in 2015 and 2016. They are all applicable to the discussion. And yes I realize they change year to year, but so do JPP and Vernon's.

I've already acknowledged that I understand cap hell is a thing of the past, but that doesn't make JPP and Vernon less shitty contracts. We're tied to them and they underperform. And it was obvious this would happen since before we signed them.

are only shitty contracts if we could easily replace them with cheaper players. Both can be off the books after this year without much problem.

That's why it is foolish to look at players primarily by value.

But we really aren't "tied" to them.

We could cut JPP after next season and save nearly 10M in space. Sure, it still eats space in dead money but it halves the cap hit.

Same deal with Vernon - if we really wanted to, we could cut him after next season and save 11M.

It's not like they are useless players anyway. JPP bugged me last year from an effort standpoint but I think in a new defense, Bettcher may be able to get more out of both players.

I still think Vernon is pretty darn good when he's healthy.

In comment 13834038 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Several of the deals I've talked about were signed in 2015 and 2016. They are all applicable to the discussion. And yes I realize they change year to year, but so do JPP and Vernon's. I've already acknowledged that I understand cap hell is a thing of the past, but that doesn't make JPP and Vernon less shitty contracts. We're tied to them and they underperform. And it was obvious this would happen since before we signed them.

Well, those contracts are from the prior administration. No need to dwell on them. It is what it is. Gettleman was hired & he’s a hard ass on these things.

Can we move on from them right now? If not, why is that?

Quote:

arc Go Terps : 2/15/2018 10:27 pm : link : reply Can we move on from them right now? If not, why is that?

Technically, we can move on from any player, but here's the thing - Why should we move from JPP and Vernon right now? Are they THAT bad? No.

That's the issue when you start overly leaning on a skewed view of a player by their contract - you start to treat them as if they are terrible - hence my parallels to Kuhn, Donnell and others above, when in actuality, they are impact guys. Heck, a healthy Vernon is still a young guy and both players are solid two-way guys.

Making moves solely on how expensive a player is will lead you to cheaper options, but rarely better ones

In comment 13834095 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Can we move on from them right now? If not, why is that?

Why would we move on from them? Who are we bringing in that is better? And if we cut them what players from other positions are we signing that we can’t right now? The Giants have made it clear that the cap will not prevent them from signing any players. If they want Norwell and he wants them, they will sign him. So how exactly does it help the team to cut both pieces of what many consider one of the best DE tandems in the league?

Regardless of your opinion of them, when teams are scouting the Giants and you read pregame evaluations each week from the opponents, the first things that come up from them when talking about the Giants strengths are Beckham and the DL.

they'd probably get the same deals on the open market. The Giants have plenty of cap space and don't need to clear it. I don't think any reasonable fan would want to get rid of JPP and/or Vernon when we aren't trying to save money to sign someone else.

we could have a strong OL!!






And a shitty tandem of DE's......

In comment 13834095 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Can we move on from them right now? If not, why is that?

"Why do we need to?" might be a better question.

I'm not sure I can come up with a good answer for that.

They're overpaid, but these aren't albatross deals for players who are useless. Both guys can still play. Why are we in such a rush to get out of these deals right this second?

and should have productive years ahead with an "easy" out within the next year or 2.

hard why Go Terps wants to move away from them. He thinks JPP is a jackass for blowing off his hand and that they are overpaid.

So he's going to bang the drum that they shouldn't be here, just as he keeps doing with Beckham. Basically, the players are unlikeable in his eyes (not sure how that applies to Vernon), so he'd prefer they aren't giants. Same for Jenkins.

I get that. So just say you don't want them on the team - don't try to twist it into an illogical argument or arguments.

Trying to bring logic into an emotional decision. It doesn't work.

He loves this shit about the cap despite displaying no rationale worth listening to. But people continue to ask for his 'insight'.

In comment 13833982 Go Terps said:

Quote:

There are other positions, like TE, G, or S, where "spending huge" is a completely different ball game.

Meant to say that while this debate has gone all over the place, I do think that this is an interesting point

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There are other positions, like TE, G, or S, where "spending huge" is a completely different ball game.

Reese, and many other GMs, have their "glamour" positions. Logic says you spend big money and use valuable draft picks on DE, LT, CB, WR. You don't use those assets on TE, G, S, LB, DT, etc.

But the price for that when everybody is thinking the same way is those guys end up being tremendously expensive.

While I think Vernon and JPP are good players, there is no doubt that we paid elite money for very good, but not elite players. But if we didn't give Vernon that, he would have easily got it elsewhere.

I'm interested in the idea of going the opposite way of that. Invest the money in the non premium positions because the elite money isn't nearly as much as it will be for premium positions. And you can maybe get 2-3 of them for the price of one big DE contract.

I thought the Eagles did a nice job of that. They locked up key pieces at DT, TE, S, and LB. They built a lot of depth at DE with manageable contracts. No matter what you think of our guys, there is no doubt that we lack pass rushing depth.

Their CBs were nothing special, probably below average. But they didn't have to be great because the surrounding units were so strong.

The Patriots model is unrealistic. But I thought the Eagles presented a nice, realistic model of a team that spent to retain their guys, but did so efficiently at positions that are not valued at a premium by the market.

Just a thought

In comment 13834406 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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hard why Go Terps wants to move away from them. He thinks JPP is a jackass for blowing off his hand and that they are overpaid. So he's going to bang the drum that they shouldn't be here, just as he keeps doing with Beckham. Basically, the players are unlikeable in his eyes (not sure how that applies to Vernon), so he'd prefer they aren't giants. Same for Jenkins. I get that. So just say you don't want them on the team - don't try to twist it into an illogical argument or arguments.

This is completely wrong.