Salary cap won't prohibit Giants from significant moves

The fact most of their high priced talent, Snacks excluded, did not perform up to expectations is no concern?

And if you get rid of them to create cap space next year, you have to pay big bucks to replace them....

Who cares about 2019? What about 2018?

We do not have a lot of cap space to make significant moves this year........

Moves made depend on the direction this team takes.....play for now or play for the future.....if you play for now and make the wrong moves, the dark ages continue....

You can sign a players this year for a lower base salary and have most of the hit come next year and the year after.

is some kinda wizard with the cap numbers... glad to still have him on our side

because he knows his numbers and manipulates the cap very well.

In comment 13833088 fireitup77 said:

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You can sign a players this year for a lower base salary and have most of the hit come next year and the year after.

Eli comes off but Odell and Collins will go up. It balances out.

so short sighted. We aren't going to be completely out of the mess in 2018. Could it happen maybe, but probably not. We should have a better season next season, but winning it all probably isn't realistic. Say what you want about Reese, but he didn't strap us with terrible contracts that we can't move on from.

Beckham’s cost is stupid.

are looking at a multiple year rebuild -- I think they are going to strike with 3 or 4 key FA moves this year and try to be very competitive

my prediction

2 Olineman will be signed to significant contracts
at least 2 other Olineman signed to mid to low range contracts
1 or 2 LBs will be signed to mid to high range range contracts
at least 1 significant veteran RB will be signed to mid to high range contract
2 DBs will be signed to mid to low range contracts

In comment 13833114 UConn4523 said:

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Beckham’s cost is stupid.

No... Stupid is saying an argument about his cost is a 1 to relation to the cap only. Beckhams cost argument includes possible issues with attitude and behavior, overall value of a WR (no matter how good) to a team with many holes and whether or not we will have the QB to get him the ball.

Saying anyone who argues over Beckhams contract value is stupid, without looking at all the factors that make up tehir argument, is stupid.

and hopefully we can find a FS

In comment 13833116 gidiefor said:

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are looking at a multiple year rebuild -- I think they are going to strike with 3 or 4 key FA moves this year and try to be very competitive my prediction 2 Olineman will be signed to significant contracts at least 2 other Olineman signed to mid to low range contracts 1 or 2 LBs will be signed to mid to high range range contracts at least 1 significant veteran RB will be signed to mid to high range contract 2 DBs will be signed to mid to low range contracts

Gidie, about 48 hours ago, I would have disagreed with you completely. In fact, I was completely pessimistic about the upcoming offseason, because frankly there just isn't a lot to pick from among the free agents (naturally that can change) and what is there will be pricey. I was mulling over the thought that maybe Gettleman almost had to trade the #2 pick because the Giants would have to rely overwhelmingly on the draft to fix the team. Not to mention the impending contracts for Collins and OBJ.

Then I realized, I was looking at the cap all wrong. I was not considering the long term cap management implications, and the fact that if need be, in 2019 and 2020, the Giants can shed significant salary.

I don't disagree with the basics of what you posted at all. The challenge will be identifying which players to spend big money on. Right now, the FA market is not looking strong. Norwell, even at more an 10mil avg salary makes a ton of sense for the Giants. Solder at LT makes sense too, but it will be a lot of money to pay a tackle who just hit 30. Other than bringing back Pugh to play RT, which I don't think Gettleman will do, I don't see what other moves for big money OL additions make sense.

All that said, if the Giants can do as you outline (2 big OL FAs, 2 cheaper OL, 1-2 LBs, 1 Vet RB, and 1-2 DBs) then they can truly go BPA throughout most of the draft.

In comment 13833163 NikkiMac said:

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and hopefully we can find a FS

A single high FS will be hard, but I think there is good value in the WR FA class.

may very well cost 11 per, but the oresence he bring will be worth the cost.

If the rumor about resigning Pugh is true it doesn't make sense to spend that much on the interior. If that happens you can bet that they have an idea of moving Pugh to tackle.

In comment 13833182 Emil said:

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In comment 13833163 NikkiMac said: Quote: and hopefully we can find a FS A single high FS will be hard, but I think there is good value in the WR FA class.

If the giants trade the #2 and pick up more picks is a guy like Fitzpatrick to be considered as a Single high FS or the kid from Florida state maybe ?

even after extending Beckham and Collins. If they take a QB at 2 they will have the benefit of paying their starting QB well below market value for 4 years in which they could use that freed up money to improve the rest of their roster.

Evaporates quickly after giving Beckham/Collins deals and year 2 of any FAs signed this year.

is increasingly creeping up to the point where it has little constraint anymore.

There are so many techniques being used to restructure contracts and have bad ones go off the books, coupled with the cap increasing rapidly every year, and we are almost closer to the days of no cap than the early days of the cap where constraint was a real and troubling issue.

I keep trying to point this out when posters complain about the onerous salaries or the bitchfest over the $200M given out to the D two years ago.

In terms of a true impact, there was little to none on the ability to make moves.

It seems like you need a cap expert to make this whole thing work. Sign whom you need and avoid cap hell. Abrams has done a good job and I'm glad he stayed.

In comment 13833116 gidiefor said:

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are looking at a multiple year rebuild -- I think they are going to strike with 3 or 4 key FA moves this year and try to be very competitive my prediction 2 Olineman will be signed to significant contracts at least 2 other Olineman signed to mid to low range contracts 1 or 2 LBs will be signed to mid to high range range contracts at least 1 significant veteran RB will be signed to mid to high range contract 2 DBs will be signed to mid to low range contracts

I think so as well. Especially if they really believe Eli has some juice left. Not to mention the OL will need the overhaul regardless of Eli, rookie QB, Webb .... A vet QB drops from the sky... etc.

We have 3 pass catchers OBJ, Shep & EE barring they can get healthy just need a true #2 WR.

Question is DB and DE depth and as mentioned a LB.

It can be done in 2 yrs 1 with a couple of HRs on the OL and our health stays ups.

Thanks

In comment 13833257 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is increasingly creeping up to the point where it has little constraint anymore. There are so many techniques being used to restructure contracts and have bad ones go off the books, coupled with the cap increasing rapidly every year, and we are almost closer to the days of no cap than the early days of the cap where constraint was a real and troubling issue. I keep trying to point this out when posters complain about the onerous salaries or the bitchfest over the $200M given out to the D two years ago. In terms of a true impact, there was little to none on the ability to make moves.

Ok, so let's try to sign LeVeon Bell, Nate Solder, Andrew Norwell, Nigel Bradham, Derrick Johnson, and Sammy Watkins this offseason. Let's also pay Beckham, Collins, Pugh, and Richburg.

If the salary cap didn't matter, it wouldn't exist.

have a lot of cap space by cutting all of our good players?

In comment 13833291 Go Terps said:

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Ok, so let's try to sign LeVeon Bell, Nate Solder, Andrew Norwell, Nigel Bradham, Derrick Johnson, and Sammy Watkins this offseason. Let's also pay Beckham, Collins, Pugh, and Richburg. If the salary cap didn't matter, it wouldn't exist.

Salary Cap:
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime...

the salary cap doesn't matter. I said it is actually closer now to the days of the cap-free times than the early days of the cap.

But accepting this means the majority of your bitching about contracts over the past two years has been practically useless.

And frankly, there are multiple ways to sign all those guys you mentioned - it would be extremely unlikely because some guys would demand a one-year deal and we'd need a complex mix of years vs. bonus $$ and guaranteed dollars, but from a cap way - there's a way to make it work.

The cap today only punishes teams who have poor cap experts, and we went from years in the 90's with half the league having to make significant personnel moves to get under the cap to 1 or 2 teams some years and no teams other years.

...it almost never does. Teams with competent cap managers like Abrams can consistently tweak contracts by restructuring deals, shifting bonus money, extending contracts into the future or make decisions on cap cuts for other priorities if they want/need to.

In comment 13833307 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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The cap today only punishes teams who have poor cap experts, and we went from years in the 90's with half the league having to make significant personnel moves to get under the cap to 1 or 2 teams some years and no teams other years.

It also punishes teams that draft poorly. You need to use cap space to plug roster holes.

the cap increases, for yrs and yrs teams have been using "cap space" as a reason to give fans for the owners not wanting to spend more. To the owners, teams are a business. Some owners like to spend a lot on their business's, some don't. They all have unique personalities and perspectives on how they want to run their business.

Supposedly the collective bargaining agreement forced teams to use the majority of their cap space. But that's looking like a load of bologna considering all the teams with massive available cap space the past few yrs.

My bitching has been because we have committed to building our team around non-elite players as if they were elite. The commitments we made to Vernon, JPP, and Jenkins were extremely foolish no matter how good a cap wizard Abrams is. We're tied to those guys and we have to hope they become something they've never been (or at least in JPP's case, not since 2011 and before blowing off a piece of his hand).

This team as currently constructed is a complete joke, and a large part of that is because we have committed to the players that we have. I know that "getting ourselves into cap hell" isn't a reality anymore...but still here we with a completely shitty roster and a locker room with some serious character questions in it.

Everyone was happy we fired Reese, but his mistakes are all still here and we can't move on because of the contracts he gave them.

In comment 13833312 Torrag said:

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...it almost never does. Teams with competent cap managers like Abrams can consistently tweak contracts by restructuring deals, shifting bonus money, extending contracts into the future or make decisions on cap cuts for other priorities if they want/need to.

Agreed, but Abrams is always thinking a few years down the road. How will actions taken this season affect the next few years?

In comment 13833325 Go Terps said:

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My bitching has been because we have committed to building our team around non-elite players as if they were elite. The commitments we made to Vernon, JPP, and Jenkins were extremely foolish no matter how good a cap wizard Abrams is. We're tied to those guys and we have to hope they become something they've never been (or at least in JPP's case, not since 2011 and before blowing off a piece of his hand). This team as currently constructed is a complete joke, and a large part of that is because we have committed to the players that we have. I know that "getting ourselves into cap hell" isn't a reality anymore...but still here we with a completely shitty roster and a locker room with some serious character questions in it. Everyone was happy we fired Reese, but his mistakes are all still here and we can't move on because of the contracts he gave them.

Yeah, Vernon sucks. He's only our best pass rusher by leaps and bounds. And yeah, that shitty Jenkins who's the only shutdown corner in the NFCE. Those signings man... I like that you didn't mention Snacks among those. He's a waste too, only the best run defender in football.... Wah wah wah...

But the key distinction - even as you pointed it out - is that the roster is a mess, not because of the salary cap preventing moves, but because Reese made the wrong moves.

That's a huge difference. And I think we'll agree to disagree about the defensive $$ allocation. We got 2 Pro Bowlers out of the deal, didn't have any adverse cap ramifications, and after this year we can get contracts off the books if we need to.

don't look so hot is that they are on the field too often and both have dealt with injuries.

but they aren't nearly as tight as some people think they are. There are also tons of levers to pull in order to create more space or to manipulate the current number. Most of the time, you are going to have to pay the piper eventually, but you can take that hit in 1 year and then start fresh. For example, there are some that bitched about JPP's contract, but there are tons of things we could do to fix it.

4 year deal/62M total

I'm not sold that JPP isn't worth that money, but if he has another year like last, we could easily get out of the deal after next season and SAVE 10M on the cap. If we hold off to the following season, we can get out and save $15M on the cap. If JPP stays healthy and has a good season, we could extend him and turn his salary into a bonus and cut his cap number in half. Tons of things to do to manipulate the cap number.

That being said, teams need to be careful with all the big contracts and ladder the "outs" so that we don't have too much dead money in any given year. Not all that difficult to do.

I think people are underestimating the fact that dirt cheap contributors like Kennard and Cockrell are free agents, these are additional holes that people aren't factoring into the cap. We have an entire OL and LB unit to fill. If the Giants cut DRC for cap space, corner is baren behind Jenkins. We still need a FS, WR depth and RB. A lot of the cap benefits are based on Eli coming off the books in the near future...but we won't be competitive without a QB...so you're either extending Eli, overpaying a mediocre FA at 25m+/yr or devoting your limited cost controlled draft resources replacing him. OBJ and Collins will be extended to position high contracts or franchised at a cap constraining number. I don't think it's as peachy as some make it out to be, that number will dry up quickly.

is the OL. Reese's biggest mistake was NOT spending on the OL and drafting/signing bad players. Not spending money on Vernon, JPP and Jenkins(which is ridiculous). That didn't prevent us from fixing the line, Reese just decided that it didn't need to be fixed.

It seems to me that everything here is structured so that 2018 is one of those "pay the piper" years and it's really not that bad at all.

Harrison has been the best player on the team since he got here.

But anyone that thinks the JPP and Vernon contracts have worked out is fucking high. And as for Jenkins, I'll point you to Sy's game review from San Francisco:

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One of the reasons many Rams fans and teammates were not upset to see Janoris Jenkins leave in free agency last year was…well…exactly what we saw Sunday. Jenkins, for the most part, has been an outstanding CB for NYG since signing in 2016. However a suspension handed down by Ben McAdoo last week and a horrid 2017 season for the Giants have taken the wind out of his sails and it showed up in San Francisco. Jenkins was torched deep, intermediate, and short all afternoon. He missed three tackles, two of which were I would say a result of less than 30% effort. It was an embarrassment and he should have been benched mid-game.

When you build your team around the likes of Janoris Jenkins it's no wonder you go 3-13.

In comment 13833345 Keith said:

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is the OL. Reese's biggest mistake was NOT spending on the OL and drafting/signing bad players. Not spending money on Vernon, JPP and Jenkins(which is ridiculous). That didn't prevent us from fixing the line, Reese just decided that it didn't need to be fixed.

+1000

People want to blame the whole roster for a losing season. They wouldn't do that two years ago...

however it's been noted that he was very injured. I'll give him a pass on that.

In comment 13833349 Go Terps said:

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Harrison has been the best player on the team since he got here. But anyone that thinks the JPP and Vernon contracts have worked out is fucking high. And as for Jenkins, I'll point you to Sy's game review from San Francisco: Quote: One of the reasons many Rams fans and teammates were not upset to see Janoris Jenkins leave in free agency last year was…well…exactly what we saw Sunday. Jenkins, for the most part, has been an outstanding CB for NYG since signing in 2016. However a suspension handed down by Ben McAdoo last week and a horrid 2017 season for the Giants have taken the wind out of his sails and it showed up in San Francisco. Jenkins was torched deep, intermediate, and short all afternoon. He missed three tackles, two of which were I would say a result of less than 30% effort. It was an embarrassment and he should have been benched mid-game. When you build your team around the likes of Janoris Jenkins it's no wonder you go 3-13.

So you're just going to ignore Jenkins' absolutely stellar 2016 season? What a joke you've become, GT.

But because we paid him like a top talent, you expect him to single handedly turn the pass defense around?

You're smarter than this. This is just another opportunity for you to bitch about the big money being thrown around the NFL- even though its the same it has always been. Talent gets paid.

In comment 13833362 Giantology said:

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But because we paid him like a top talent, you expect him to single handedly turn the pass defense around? You're smarter than this. This is just another opportunity for you to bitch about the big money being thrown around the NFL- even though its the same it has always been. Talent gets paid.

+1

The shtick is tired and just not correct.

Yeah he was good in 2016. I said so myself here. But he showed in 2017 he's not someone that can be counted on.

The only joke here is watching homer fans stand up for highly paid underperformers on a a piece of shit 3-13 team.

Janoris Jenkins was a top 5 CB in 2016.

Pointing to one game where he was significantly hurt as proof that it was a bad signing is... silly.

Cmon. He's a fantastic player. This was not even close to a poor signing.

He'd fold every hand until he gets aces, see the flop, and then fold to a big bet when he doesn't flop quads.

even Sy points it out:

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Jenkins, for the most part, has been an outstanding CB for NYG since signing in 2016. However a suspension handed down by Ben McAdoo last week and a horrid 2017 season for the Giants have taken the wind out of his sails and it showed up in San Francisco

I think everyone quit on the team last year, fans included. THAT'S how bad McAdoo was last year in the way he handled things. Reese too.

I'm not going to hold a performance against SF in a lost season when he was playing through injury to outweigh a season where he was our best CB (and probably was still our best CB last year).

We had 3 of our 4 top CB's suspended last year. That isn't all on their character, just like if I said it was all on the coaches - that too would be an incorrect statement.

Basically, you hated spending $200M and you hate some of the characters on the team. I get that. But you shouldn't let it cloud every post and stance you take. the net effect of spending $200M has been positive and it hasn't caused cap issues.

You'll probably talk about cap constraints when resigning Odell, but the crux of your argument won't be rooted in a real calamity. It will be rooted in the fact you don't like the dude.

I like you as a poster - but I'll push back on these types of arguments because they have no teeth.

In comment 13833349 Go Terps said:

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Harrison has been the best player on the team since he got here. But anyone that thinks the JPP and Vernon contracts have worked out is fucking high. And as for Jenkins, I'll point you to Sy's game review from San Francisco: Quote: One of the reasons many Rams fans and teammates were not upset to see Janoris Jenkins leave in free agency last year was…well…exactly what we saw Sunday. Jenkins, for the most part, has been an outstanding CB for NYG since signing in 2016. However a suspension handed down by Ben McAdoo last week and a horrid 2017 season for the Giants have taken the wind out of his sails and it showed up in San Francisco. Jenkins was torched deep, intermediate, and short all afternoon. He missed three tackles, two of which were I would say a result of less than 30% effort. It was an embarrassment and he should have been benched mid-game. When you build your team around the likes of Janoris Jenkins it's no wonder you go 3-13.

Terps, I agree with you that maybe Jenkins and Vernon are not worth the money we pay them currently, but we had a ton of space, we had DESPERATE need and those were the market rates for the positions. If we didn't pay what we did, someone else was paying them close to that. They immediately helped out and though last year was a disaster, I think that Vernon is currently our best DE and no one else is letting a similar talent or better get to Free agency and Jenkins is a head case but with DB's and WR's you have those. He will bounce back and prove to be an asset with a more disciplinary atmosphere. JPP is the worst of the signings and if you let him go, again it won't hurt us. I think you have to take a look at the big picture. Its about how you get better. and in 2015 we couldn't be choosy about our FA signings. We had to get a lot better on D.

the guy does an excellent job structuring deals and maneuvering the cap. The Giants have a ton of flexibility in 2019 and 2020 thanks to the structure of those deals. Nice to have a good cap guy in the building.

I had no problems spending the $200 million. We should spending at or close to the cap every season...we shouldn't be leaving resources on the table. My problem is how we spent it. It was a reactionary panic move to 2015, and resulted in us paying some players like they're better than they actually are.

And as for Beckham, yeah I obviously think he's a punk. He's a player I don't enjoy having to root for on Sunday. I make no bones about that.

But I also don't think he's a winning player...at least not on this team. I think he would do well for himself to get a change of scenery and get to a team that will make him grow up already. I don't think he's going to do it here. I think everyone from Mara on down in the front office and coaching staff has failed with Beckham.

as if you need to be a stoic player to be successful:

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I think he would do well for himself to get a change of scenery and get to a team that will make him grow up already

Nobody has failed Beckham. He doesn't even need to "grow up". He just keep needs to be the prolific player he is.

Frankly, he was quiet last year, because he didn't play, and the team was far worse off for it.

You have some false equivalency in your mind that TD celebrations or being a punk on the field somehow means the guy doesn't care to win and slacks off, yet there are so many examples of his hard work that contradict that.

You know who used to walk up and down the sideline screaming at guys and who actually went after teammates a couple of times in the locker room when the offense was crapping the bed? LT. And for all we know he was coked out at the time. And he didn't even work his ass off. He was just a mean SOB. And a Giant legend,

Having Beckham "grow up", to whatever subjective standard that is supposed to be, doesn't ensure success, just as him being a punk, to the same subjective standard, doesn't ensure the team will lose.

what is more likely true is that subtraction of an elite player will almost certainly have an impact.