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| Among the reasons is the Giants’ long-term outlook. Over the Cap estimates they currently have in the neighborhood of $70 million available in 2019. This probably doesn’t even account for the likelihood that Eli Manning ($23.2 million vs. the cap in 2019) will be off the books next year and the Giants can move on rather easily from several others of the biggest contracts on their books from the offseason spending spree of 2016. They are in good shape moving forward. Defensive end Olivier Vernon, cornerback Janoris Jenkins, defensive tackle Damon Harrison and defensive end Jason Pierre-Paul all have contracts that the team can get out of rather easily next offseason, if it so desires. No wonder the Giants aren’t overly concerned about their financial situation this offseason or moving forward. “We’re healthy,” assistant general manager Kevin Abrams said late last year. Abrams’ job responsibilities include handling the Giants’ salary cap and negotiating contracts. He added: “We won’t have any restrictions on what we can do based upon the salary cap. We’ll have tough decisions like we have every offseason, but we don’t have to make any decisions because of the salary cap.” |
You don't have to root for him. You've made it quite clear that you think there are a lot of players on this team that are tough for you to root for. I think there's a pretty simple solution for that which is completely within your control.
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I think he would do well for himself to get a change of scenery and get to a team that will make him grow up already
Nobody has failed Beckham. He doesn't even need to "grow up". He just keep needs to be the prolific player he is.
Frankly, he was quiet last year, because he didn't play, and the team was far worse off for it.
You have some false equivalency in your mind that TD celebrations or being a punk on the field somehow means the guy doesn't care to win and slacks off, yet there are so many examples of his hard work that contradict that.
You know who used to walk up and down the sideline screaming at guys and who actually went after teammates a couple of times in the locker room when the offense was crapping the bed? LT. And for all we know he was coked out at the time. And he didn't even work his ass off. He was just a mean SOB. And a Giant legend,
Having Beckham "grow up", to whatever subjective standard that is supposed to be, doesn't ensure success, just as him being a punk, to the same subjective standard, doesn't ensure the team will lose.
what is more likely true is that subtraction of an elite player will almost certainly have an impact.
I couldn't agree more. And with LT there was a ton of off field stuff that if it happened today, we'd be talking about a different career arc for him. Odell is passionate and you see that both on the field and on the sideline. He has done nothing off the field to disparage the Giants or himself and Id say his lone transgression was the boat trip. Hell I'll take that if he can help get us to the next superbowl parade.
my prediction
2 Olineman will be signed to significant contracts
at least 2 other Olineman signed to mid to low range contracts
1 or 2 LBs will be signed to mid to high range range contracts
at least 1 significant veteran RB will be signed to mid to high range contract
2 DBs will be signed to mid to low range contracts
My take is
2 OL signed to significant contracts
1 to mid to low range OL contracts
2 Draft picks
1 or 2 LBs signed to mid to high range range contracts
1 draft pick
1 vet DT
1 draft pick
No significant running back via FA. One draft choice.
1 draft pick
1 DB high range (FS)
1 DB mid to low range contracts
1 draft pick (later unless we trade down)
1 vet WR to medium-high contract or a prove it deal. Marshall cut.
2016 Jenkins and Snacks were incredible. Vernon was solid, hurt, or meh. JPP mostly meh
2017 Snacks still incredible. Vernon solid, hurt, or meh, Jenkins falls off. JPP mostly meh
Definitely a mixed bag, so no, it didn't really justify the $200M yet. Did the Giants have a better alternative path without those players? I'm not sure of that, as I don't think we make a wildcard berth in 2016 without them. They were also all on a 3-13 team last year. Again, mixed bag. So we have, based on this article, one more year to see what this quad of players has and who sticks after this.
Last year was such a glorious disaster, no one knows the level of behind-the-scenes frustration that might have gone on to make the secondary lose their shit, and the team collectively crap the bed.
I am more of Terp's belief to not idiotically spend money above a players worth, but let's see what the jury says this year, and something tells me Gettleman will be willing to do the right thing by this team in making prudent moves, rather than what's selfish like we saw in the late moves of Reese and McAdoo trying to save their skin.
Luckily we aren't really handicapped despite the $200M spend, tho I would caution on overcommitting in the next few years since if we're fortunate enough to land another franchise QB, they will need to eventually come on the books too.
Snacks is the best run defender in the game.
And Jenkins is as good a corner as you're going to get.
The team sucked last year, and it rotted from McAdoo on down and that played a role in our perception of the team. But that talent is there on defense. It actually is.
And if you get rid of them to create cap space next year, you have to pay big bucks to replace them....
Who cares about 2019? What about 2018?
We do not have a lot of cap space to make significant moves this year........
Moves made depend on the direction this team takes.....play for now or play for the future.....if you play for now and make the wrong moves, the dark ages continue....
Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla
Most of the time when fans bitch about the cap or money it's stupid. Broken record.
Money is a factor. Cap is a factor. It's not THE factor that many money obsessed fans live by. Not even close.
The salary cap and player contracts is the most annoying, overstated talking point in the sports landscape today and by a wide margin. It has clouded judgments on player value and skewed what's important.
90% of the time, a player making slightly more than he is "worth" doesn't matter in the least. Won't stop fans from getting the vapors.
Yeah, the $200M tag gets tiresome... this isn't Major League Baseball.
Of course the cap creates restrictions. But not anywhere near to the degree people seem to think.
I remember every single year, people would watch the Eagles maneuver their cap and say "this is gonna catch up to them sooner than later and they're going to be in cap hell!"
Except it really didn't happen.
When you have a good cap guy in the FO, you can pretty easily spend and avoid cap hell.
There ought to be a more ubiquitous metric that objectively analyzes each contract based on it’s structure and the player’s age/position to boil it down to an expected number of years and $ earned.
Something like modified duration on interest rate products.
ONce the 2017 Giants knew they had no shot they adopted a business decision mentality. Doesn't make it right, but it happened. Also doesn't mean those same players won't help this team reinvent itself in 2018. We've seen it before.
JPP had more tackles than Miller last year. Miller had ONE more sack.
Is Miller hot smelly garbage too?
JPP and Vernon are productive DEs in this league. Compliment them with more talent. Watch the D thrive. Those two DEs are as good against the run as any DE combo going. Add talent to the LBs and Edge rushers. COMPLIMENT THEM.
There ought to be a more ubiquitous metric that objectively analyzes each contract based on it’s structure and the player’s age/position to boil it down to an expected number of years and $ earned.
Something like modified duration on interest rate products.
You would hope that the sophisticated fan would understand this and wouldn't keep parroting the same stupid thing to try and diminish a guy like Odell or JPP, but that's not the case. Either certain people have no understanding of the cap or choose to speak in false narratives to make a point. It's not reality.
And he had good seasons after 2011 --but you consistently ignore that and post the same bs every other day. 2014 ring a bell? What about most of 2016 before he got hurt?
The Giants paid Vernon and JPP big money because they are two way DEs. They aren't the best passrushers in the NFL but they are good two way players and those guys are hard to find. Perhaps the Giants could find a way to lessen their snap counts in 2018...that would be nice.
Entering 2017, the hope/expectation was that the D would play at the somewhere near the same level as the previous year and that the offense in general, and Eli in particular would have a bounce back year. Instead, the offense continued to struggle while the defense just never played with the anywhere near same intensity as 2016. Who's to blame; who knows; my own sense is that this is sports and shit happens.
Interestingly, my sense is while the obviously have to find some bodies to fill out the OL, the key to the 2018 season is the defense. If they can play back to the 2016 level then the Giants could be reasonably competitive again this fall. And there is no reason they shouldn't. There is talent on that side of the ball: Snacks, Collins and Jackrabbit are each legit Pro Bowl possibilities and if healthy and motivated JPP and Vernon - both of whom may be playing for their 2019 contracts - are as good as just about any DE combo in the league.
At the same time, though, the Giants are clearly in a transition period from the Eli era to whatever comes next and 2018 will really be more a transition year so one would really like to see moves - whether its the draft or free agency - to have something of a longer term perspective than usual.
Should be an interesting year.
The $200M also gets thrown around like it’s $200M per season. It’s just a strange obsession some fans have. Let’s add up all the years of every contract and bitch incessantly about a team spending money well within the cap. Never mind that much of that money will never be seen by the players.
The Vernon comments are particularly frustrating because when he's healthy he's very good, and he's exactly the model people here screamed for. Young player coming off of a rookie contract instead of an aging guy at the end of the string.
Heck, every guy Reese signed with the $200M fit that bill.
But really, the $$ shouldn't matter to the fans, let the cap guys figure it out. I just never understood talk about guys overdrafted or overpaid, and a lot of times it is subjective.
Not to pick on GT again, but he was commenting this week about how the Panthers overdrafted McCaffery. The guy ended up with 80 receptions and was a focal point of the offense as a rookie. He was a key reason they made the postseason, so does it matter where he was drafted? Panthers weren't going to get him a round later.
Same goes with salary. I'm not sitting here going, "Nice pick Jenkins, but you should have another two before the game's over because you are making a shitload of cash!".
It isn't logical at all.
And he had good seasons after 2011 --but you consistently ignore that and post the same bs every other day. 2014 ring a bell? What about most of 2016 before he got hurt?
The Giants paid Vernon and JPP big money because they are two way DEs. They aren't the best passrushers in the NFL but they are good two way players and those guys are hard to find. Perhaps the Giants could find a way to lessen their snap counts in 2018...that would be nice.
djm : 10/1/2017 7:48 pm : link
He's a good but not great player. Money should have been used elsewhere.
I hate everything. Fuck spags too.
Link - ( New Window )
What we should care about is Kelechi Osemele and Mitchell Schwartz being All-Pro offensive linemen elsewhere for less guaranteed money combined than what we gave Vernon. And meanwhile our offensive line is a complete joke to the point where Gettleman brought it up in his introductory press conference.
It's not about the money, it's what could be done with it.
It really isn't what can be done with the money. It is that a team that is strong in making good scouting decisions on personnel should do well, no matter the salary implications.
As pointed out above, our roster construction fell apart because of the OL. But not because we were cheap - because we missed evaluating the players correctly.
We could've brought Schwartz and Whitworth and whomever else to the team, but if we then limped to 8-8, people would pick a few players and ride them as being overpaid stiffs.
If players are going to be ridden, it should be because they suck. Markus Kuhn. Matt Dodge. Jerrel Jernigan. Larry Donnell. Those guys were mostly steaming piles of crap, but their cap allocation wasn't the reason - they basically made peanuts.
I don't think it is offbase to argue that both Vernon and JPP are in the top half of the league at DE (I know I could at least make that argument), yet some treat them like they are Markus Kuhn because of what they make. Don't do that - do it on the merits of their play.
What we should care about is Kelechi Osemele and Mitchell Schwartz being All-Pro offensive linemen elsewhere for less guaranteed money combined than what we gave Vernon. And meanwhile our offensive line is a complete joke to the point where Gettleman brought it up in his introductory press conference.
It's not about the money, it's what could be done with it.
How do you know that Osemele and Schwartz would have come to the Giants? How do you know the Giants didn’t try? You compare players contracts like this all the time but it’s just not that black and white. Heck, many times you compare to players that have never been FAs and have never been available. You search around the league to find all of the absolute best values and throw it around like it’s easy for the Giants to just raid teams of their players. Or just snap their fingers and convince players to sign with the Giants.
This is 100% accurate, and almost always overlooked. Had Reese drafted Vernon, Jenkins and Harrison, they still would have reached FA when they did, and we'd still have had to make the same decisions on whether to sign them. People are quick to claim that it's because of the poor drafting that the Giants had to spend as much as they did without acknowledging that it's also why they were able to to spend as much as they did.
You can make the case that if there was a more consistent pipeline of talent in general, they might have only signed 1-2 of them rather than all 3, but that's mostly conjecture.
A couple months ago I started a thread calling attention to Spotrac's player valuation tool. Here's how they describe it:
I'm not touting this as the end all be all; it's just a tool that should be used along with other qualitative and quantitative measures to try to tell the story.
According to this one particular tool, Vernon ranked 71st and JPP 74th in the NFL amongst defensive ends in performance v. salary.
Again, just one tool and not the end all be all. But if you go through the team rankings and player rankings it looks like there is some correlation between these valuations and win-loss records.
Link - ( New Window )
A couple months ago I started a thread calling attention to Spotrac's player valuation tool. Here's how they describe it:
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An up-to-date look at the value rankings of all active NFL players based on a mathematical comparison of their current average salary against their cumulative "production points". These points are made up of major statistical categories relevant to that player's position. From there, we generate a z-score for each player among their position, to rank them with a "value". This True Value rating is what you see below. By default players must have played in 60% of available snaps in order to qualify.
I'm not touting this as the end all be all; it's just a tool that should be used along with other qualitative and quantitative measures to try to tell the story.
According to this one particular tool, Vernon ranked 71st and JPP 74th in the NFL amongst defensive ends in performance v. salary.
Again, just one tool and not the end all be all. But if you go through the team rankings and player rankings it looks like there is some correlation between these valuations and win-loss records. Link - ( New Window )
That's an interesting tool, and it definitely supports your view on their contracts. The only observation that I'd make is that it seems to weight sacks very heavily with less value placed on run defense for DEs (the actual formula is not shown, is it?). Now, maybe that actually is the proper weighting for DE valuation, but if not, the tool is almost certainly bound to undervalue both JPP and OV.
That said, their contracts are such that they're not likely to represent a good value relative to lesser paid players. Since they're already paid like stars, they're going to get dinged for anything less. And I realize that's exactly your point, and I'm not disputing it.
I'm curious what you think a fair value for them would be. This is completely separate from the argument of whether or not you fundamentally agree with spending so much on one position group - it's really more, if we fully concede that JPP and OV are overpaid, how much do you estimate that they're overpaid by? And once that is determined, what is the opportunity cost that the overpayment value represents?
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That 2016 spending spree was a mulligan for drafting like shit the prior 5 years. We were able to spend that money outside because we didn't have to bother resigning any of our own (discounting the weird JPP saga). That's the upside of drafting poorly, you give the fans a more exciting FA period.
This is 100% accurate, and almost always overlooked. Had Reese drafted Vernon, Jenkins and Harrison, they still would have reached FA when they did, and we'd still have had to make the same decisions on whether to sign them. People are quick to claim that it's because of the poor drafting that the Giants had to spend as much as they did without acknowledging that it's also why they were able to to spend as much as they did.
You can make the case that if there was a more consistent pipeline of talent in general, they might have only signed 1-2 of them rather than all 3, but that's mostly conjecture.
It's all about perspective. Resigning a known commodity during the season or prior to FA doesn't bring the headlines or attention like signing the #1 DE on the open market. If we simply drafted Vernon and gave him that contract prior to FA, there would be 1 sticky at the top of this site and not 50 different threads leading up to and after. I always look at Vernon, Jenkins and Snacks as pseudo mulligans for DaMontre Moore, Prince and Hankins. Yes, Abrams is good but he's not a magician, he was simply working without the burden of having to extend any of his own players. I'm hoping that changes.
If you'd ever played cards with him, you'd know that's not true at all. I don't think I've seen him fold a hand in 15 years.
Seriously?
Reese & Ross over-allocation of resources to athletes at skill positions crushed this team.
Draft success is fleeting. Injuries play a part for sure.
I'll never let go of Reese drafting David Wilson. Wilson was awesome - no doubt. However, we needed OL. Our OL had aged. McKenzie certainly was winding down.
I was at a panthers game where we got blown out, shut out and the interior OL crumbled with 2 injuries. It was the worst live game I've been to as a Giants fan. Manning was getting destroyed.
That game was in 2013. 2013! The fact that wasn't fixed by 2015 is a joke.
This regime is going to end that.
I'd like to see the Giants prioritize prior to FA
1) Resigning Cockrell
2) Extending Collins
3) Resign Fluker
At FA
4) Get at least 1 OL Caliber starter
5) Get some LBers / hybrid dbs that are fast , phsyical and are multiple and fit into Betchers system
Seriously?
Reese & Ross over-allocation of resources to athletes at skill positions crushed this team.
Draft success is fleeting. Injuries play a part for sure.
I'll never let go of Reese drafting David Wilson. Wilson was awesome - no doubt. However, we needed OL. Our OL had aged. McKenzie certainly was winding down.
I was at a panthers game where we got blown out, shut out and the interior OL crumbled with 2 injuries. It was the worst live game I've been to as a Giants fan. Manning was getting destroyed.
That game was in 2013. 2013! The fact that wasn't fixed by 2015 is a joke.
This regime is going to end that.
I don't think you can fairly say that the OL failed due to lack of resources - they did use two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick (plus a 6th and 7th round pick) on the OL in recent years. They just didn't pick the right guys. If Flowers had turned into Tyron Smith, Pugh into Zack Martin and Richburg into Travis Frederick, would the Giants have an OL problem?
It's difficult to say. JPP is certainly wildly overpaid considering the physical injuries he's had as well as the questions that have been there from time to time about effort level. If you look at Cameron Jordan (a better player than both JPP and Vernon IMO), he signed a 5 year $55M contract in 2015. To me that would have been the absolute ceiling for Vernon. For JPP I wouldn't have offered more than $4 or $5M a year for a year or two.
In 2015 Brandon Graham signed a 4 year, $26M contract extension with Philly. Compare that with what we gave JPP: 1 year $10M in 2016 and then 4 years $62M in 2017. JPP may have been better than his draft classmate Graham in 2011, but that was several years and a half a hand ago. I'd argue Graham is clearly a better player than JPP is now, and his 2018 cap hit will be almost $10M less. That's tough to swallow...$10M is a lot of cap space.
But we were desperate and flush with cash following 2015, and the agents knew it. So here we are today.
I pointed out the $10M difference in 2018 salary cap between JPP and Brandon Graham. Here are some players with a $10M or less cap hit in 2018:
Malcolm Jenkins
Harrison Smith
Travis Kelce
Mike Iupati
Keenan Allen
Snacks
Kam Chancellor
Geno Atkins
Zack Martin
Larry Worford
LeSean McCoy
That should put the absurdity of JPP's (and Vernon's) contracts in perspective...in 2018, JPP (or Vernon) = Brandon Graham + any one of those guys.
I don't think you can fairly say that the OL failed due to lack of resources - they did use two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick (plus a 6th and 7th round pick) on the OL in recent years. They just didn't pick the right guys. If Flowers had turned into Tyron Smith, Pugh into Zack Martin and Richburg into Travis Frederick, would the Giants have an OL problem?
No, but I bet Richburg's wife would be really confused.
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who fucking cares how much JPP and Vernon make? They will keep their jobs here if they stay on the field and produce. Ok fine, maybe they are overpaid but will anyone really give a shit if JPP is batting down a pass in the 4th quarter of a big game week 14 next season? No. We won't.
And he had good seasons after 2011 --but you consistently ignore that and post the same bs every other day. 2014 ring a bell? What about most of 2016 before he got hurt?
The Giants paid Vernon and JPP big money because they are two way DEs. They aren't the best passrushers in the NFL but they are good two way players and those guys are hard to find. Perhaps the Giants could find a way to lessen their snap counts in 2018...that would be nice.
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Terps and some others were right about JPP
djm : 10/1/2017 7:48 pm : link
He's a good but not great player. Money should have been used elsewhere.
I hate everything. Fuck spags too.
Link - ( New Window )
Wow you got me.. in the throes of the shittiest nyg seaaon ever I questioned everything Giants related including jpp.
Great. What's the point? He's still a good live body at DE.
I stated my blueprint for last off season before it began. They didn't do what I wanted.
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He'd fold every hand until he gets aces, see the flop, and then fold to a big bet when he doesn't flop quads.
If you'd ever played cards with him, you'd know that's not true at all. I don't think I've seen him fold a hand in 15 years.
I fold shit and bet aggressively on anything good. Table won't be boring if I'm playing.
Use the bet as a weapon.
I pointed out the $10M difference in 2018 salary cap between JPP and Brandon Graham. Here are some players with a $10M or less cap hit in 2018:
Malcolm Jenkins
Harrison Smith
Travis Kelce
Mike Iupati
Keenan Allen
Snacks
Kam Chancellor
Geno Atkins
Zack Martin
Larry Worford
LeSean McCoy
That should put the absurdity of JPP's (and Vernon's) contracts in perspective...in 2018, JPP (or Vernon) = Brandon Graham + any one of those guys.
You're still formulating arguments that show a lack of understanding of the cap.
First, these guys all play assorted positions - so the positional values are going to vary quite a bit. There are linemen, RB's, WR's, and DB's on that list.
Second, cap hits don't spread evenly. Just because these guys had a cap hit of 10M or less this year doesn't mean they do every year.
Allen signed his deal coming off a year where he missed half the season due to injury and then actually missed the entire following season. His cap hit jumps over 10M next year and the following year, as well.
Zack Martin just got his option picked up - his cap number is 100% going to be over 10M per year as soon as he gets his next contract. Zeiter's cap hits are 12-14M - Martin will get more.
Harrison Smith's cap hit hits 10M and over starting next year.
When Atkins signed his deal back in 2013, there weren't even any 4-3 DT's in the sport with a cap hit @ 11M or higher.
That list is quite frankly, meaningless. Most of those contracts were signed at different times, and the players all play different positions, and their cap hits aren't static from year to year.
Kelce signed a 6 year deal back in 2014.
If he were on the market right now, he would be made the highest paid C in the league and his cap hit would jump over 10M per year because that's what it would require.
We have overspent foolishly for non-elite players at the worst possible positions to make such a mistake. If you can't grasp that I don't know what to tell you.
We have overspent foolishly for non-elite players at the worst possible positions to make such a mistake. If you can't grasp that I don't know what to tell you.
All I am doing is pointing out that you proved nothing with that list and I showed you exactly why.
I'm not missing the point because you're not making one.
Listing players at a billion different positions than the ones you're complaining about and isolating single year cap hits is entirely fruitless.
Half of those deals were signed several years ago, most of those positions are less costly than pass rushers, and guys like Zack Martin are still on their rookie deals.
JPP and Vernon aren't prohibiting this team nearly as much as you think.
Either you can learn more about how the cap works or keep making foolish arguments like the one you tried above.
Your call.
I've already acknowledged that I understand cap hell is a thing of the past, but that doesn't make JPP and Vernon less shitty contracts. We're tied to them and they underperform. And it was obvious this would happen since before we signed them.
That's why it is foolish to look at players primarily by value.
We could cut JPP after next season and save nearly 10M in space. Sure, it still eats space in dead money but it halves the cap hit.
Same deal with Vernon - if we really wanted to, we could cut him after next season and save 11M.
It's not like they are useless players anyway. JPP bugged me last year from an effort standpoint but I think in a new defense, Bettcher may be able to get more out of both players.
I still think Vernon is pretty darn good when he's healthy.
I've already acknowledged that I understand cap hell is a thing of the past, but that doesn't make JPP and Vernon less shitty contracts. We're tied to them and they underperform. And it was obvious this would happen since before we signed them.
Well, those contracts are from the prior administration. No need to dwell on them. It is what it is. Gettleman was hired & he’s a hard ass on these things.