Doesn't mean they have the ammo to do it. This is far below the value chart to move up from the 20's to 2. Not to mention there is talk Cordy Glenn would be a cap casualty because he has under-performed his contract.
Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
Have to have an impact player out of this Draft. That's the only franchise payoff for having such an awful season. For me that means you can't trade back past the Jets at #6. As I have identified 6 bona fide blue chip players in this years class.
Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
Pretty much my thought, though I want 2 starters of their roster or somehow picked up via trade/ FA by them , the 21+22, and 3rd round next year, or,as I was more generous, the 1st and 3rd next year along with the 21+22.
RE: The only way that I would consider moving down that far Â
Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
Just for fun, to put names to that draft:
1 - OT Connor Williams (Bills)
1a - RB Derrick Guice (Bills)
2 - OG Will Hernandez
2a - CB Carlton Davis (Bills)
3 - Rush LB Lorenzo Carter
4 - S Armani Watts
4a - OT Alex Kappa (Comp)
5 - DT Lowell Lotulelei
6 - DE Joe Ostman
Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
I agree with you on the compensation, but even if they are right about Rosen, rookie QBs typically don't win a lot. There is still a big jump in talent, and they will have to play 4 games against the AFC South division next year, becoming perhaps the toughest division in the NFL, 4 games against the NFC North division, which might be even tougher, and then a game against Baltimore and the LA Chargers, in addition to having to play Brady twice. If you're going to make a projection of them, I would say that a top 5 pick in next year's draft is a reasonable prediction, a top 10 pick is likely.
RE: RE: The only way that I would consider moving down that far Â
Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
Just for fun, to put names to that draft:
1 - OT Connor Williams (Bills)
1a - RB Derrick Guice (Bills)
2 - OG Will Hernandez
2a - CB Carlton Davis (Bills)
3 - Rush LB Lorenzo Carter
4 - S Armani Watts
4a - OT Alex Kappa (Comp)
5 - DT Lowell Lotulelei
6 - DE Joe Ostman
Not bad at all. I would end with a LB and OL heavy draft
1 - C Billy Price
1B - OLB Harold Landry
2a - OL Braden Smith
2B - LB Leighton Vander Esche
3rd - RB Penny
4a - OT Alex Cappa
4b - LB Shaquem Griffin
Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
Just for fun, to put names to that draft:
1 - OT Connor Williams (Bills)
1a - RB Derrick Guice (Bills)
2 - OG Will Hernandez
2a - CB Carlton Davis (Bills)
3 - Rush LB Lorenzo Carter
4 - S Armani Watts
4a - OT Alex Kappa (Comp)
5 - DT Lowell Lotulelei
6 - DE Joe Ostman
Not bad at all. I would end with a LB and OL heavy draft
1 - C Billy Price
1B - OLB Harold Landry
2a - OL Braden Smith
2B - LB Leighton Vander Esche
3rd - RB Penny
4a - OT Alex Cappa
4b - LB Shaquem Griffin
End up with a starting left tackle, plus 2 first round picks and 3 second round picks in this drafts strength, there is plenty of talent from the mid first round thru the 4th round of this draft, with that 3rd round comp pick we should add also that gives us 7 picks in the first 3 rounds plus our starting left tackle, that is a great start.
Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
Just for fun, to put names to that draft:
1 - OT Connor Williams (Bills)
1a - RB Derrick Guice (Bills)
2 - OG Will Hernandez
2a - CB Carlton Davis (Bills)
3 - Rush LB Lorenzo Carter
4 - S Armani Watts
4a - OT Alex Kappa (Comp)
5 - DT Lowell Lotulelei
6 - DE Joe Ostman
Not bad at all. I would end with a LB and OL heavy draft
1 - C Billy Price
1B - OLB Harold Landry
2a - OL Braden Smith
2B - LB Leighton Vander Esche
3rd - RB Penny
4a - OT Alex Cappa
4b - LB Shaquem Griffin
And no future blue chip QB prospect to bridge us away from Eli in 2019 ...
Hang up the phone if that was the offer. Here's the thing, the Giants are going to need to be in a position to trade up to the top of the 2019 or 2020 draft to land a top qb when Eli is done and everyone realizes Webb is a back up qb at best. In order to do so the Giants would need to start with one of the bills # 1 picks and then also obtain their 2019 and 2020 number 1 picks.
The Giants are on their way to becoming the bills and jets (i.e. in a continuous search for a franchise qb that could span over a decade) if they pass up on one of the top 2 qbs. So in order to prevent that, they would need to be in a place to move up based on a possible 7-9/8-8/9-7 record over the next two years, placing them at middle of the draft or worse. And since 2019 looks like a light year for college qbs right now, they need to look to 2020, so having multiple numbers 1s in both years is a must.
Now, if most of you think what I wrote was insane, I would agree with you. Obtaining multiple years worth of first round picks spanning 3 drafts from a team is insane. So, rather than the Giants placing themselves in a situation where they are going to trade up to a spot where they are right now only to HOPE to have a chance at a qb as good as Darnold/Rosen, how bout they just take that qb right now instead of their strategy over the next few seasons being purely and entirely based on hope.
Seems like a lot of the giants strategy over the past 5 seasons has been purely based I hope. How's that worked out?
And a first round pick next year to barter. They have the resources, it's a matter of whether they want to part with them. They're a legit trade down possibility.
need #21, #22, #53, #1 and #2 in 2019, and Glenn. Might take #3 in 2019 instead of a #2.
But a willingness to drop that far depends a lot on how you view Darnold and Rosen. As I've said, Rosen is the best player in the draft, but his injury history would almost certainly preclude me from taking him at #2. I'd therefore be more likely to do a deal if the Browns take Darnold. But even if they don't, a deal like that would still be intriguing.
As we get closer to the draft the interest in the top two picks is going to explode.
Agreed. My guess is that all three QBs acquit themselves very well at the combine. It's a controlled environment where they can really showcase their skills.
need #21, #22, #53, #1 and #2 in 2019, and Glenn. Might take #3 in 2019 instead of a #2.
But a willingness to drop that far depends a lot on how you view Darnold and Rosen. As I've said, Rosen is the best player in the draft, but his injury history would almost certainly preclude me from taking him at #2. I'd therefore be more likely to do a deal if the Browns take Darnold. But even if they don't, a deal like that would still be intriguing.
But I didn't post it because it appeared to be opinion journalism and not anything being leaked from Bills or Giants land. There was a similar thread on BBI earlier in the week which was asking if a trade-down with the Bills would be realistic.
And trade back up to grab your blue chip of choice while still holding onto some of those smaller resources. If we're using the "trade value chart" as an objective measure, they have one of the highest point totals among all NFL teams. They have the resources and the need at QB, they're a fine and realistic partner.
1. 247 sports is not reputable. Take what you read with multiple grains of salt.
2. It is a long way to drop
3. The proposed trade in the article (Giants #2 overall for Bills 2 first round picks, Cordy Glenn, and Bills 2nd) is not good enough.
4. Here is the way I would do it:
- Bills send picks #21 and #22
- Bills send pick #53
- Bills send their first round pick in 2019
- Bills send their 2nd round pick in 2020
- Bills send the Giants Cordy Glenn (a player who they are considering cutting anyway for cap reasons)
- Giants send Bills the #2 overall pick.
5. Bill select the QB they want, the Giants can stay at 21 and 22, and use one of those picks on a 2nd tier QB (like Mike White or Mason Rudolph) and draft the best OL available.
Or they can take the 22nd and 53rd pick and try to move up about 7 spots to the middle of the first round and select what remains of the first group of QBs after Darnold, Rosen, and Mayfield. So Allen, Jackson, maybe Rudolph).
Or you take the 22nd and 53rd, move up and take the best OT available or an edge rusher like Marcus Davenport, and use pick 21 on Rudolph, Jackson, or White.
Agree 100% that it is a long way to drop back, but it's not unthinkable.
And trade back up to grab your blue chip of choice while still holding onto some of those smaller resources. If we're using the "trade value chart" as an objective measure, they have one of the highest point totals among all NFL teams. They have the resources and the need at QB, they're a fine and realistic partner.
That's a lot of assumptions, I wouldn't bet on pulling off all those moving parts in your favor.
If they fail to trade up for the blue chip target, then what? You're staring at a 2019 roster likely minus Eli, and you've pissed away a great shot at his successor.
Getting the 21st, 22nd, our 36th, and the Bills 53rd gives us 4 players in the top 1.5 rounds. Plus they mentioned getting Cordy Glenn. So we get 4 top draft picks and a starting left tackle. Whats not to like, especially if we think Webb can be the next QB. So we'd get a LT, another OL player like Williams, a top RB, and two guys in the 2nd who could contribute right away. We fix our OL and RB in the 1st round, and add top players in the 2nd.
I would try and negotiate on this, but it definitely has promise.
I would have a very hard time moving back that far Â
More than likely we won't fall much further than 6 if we do plan to trade back.. I think if this is going to happen its going to take two trades for the Bills to get to the #2 pick.
the quantity is alluring when you've got a pile of holes to fill.
But, Eli's out of here soon, they can't afford to fuck this pick up.
I am wondering if you have some information about the Giants current draft plans that you're not sharing. I have been an avid supporter of drafting a QB at 2, assuming of course that the Giants feel he has franchise QB upside. I fully expect them to come away with a QB in the first round and from your posts you clearly do as well.
And trade back up to grab your blue chip of choice while still holding onto some of those smaller resources. If we're using the "trade value chart" as an objective measure, they have one of the highest point totals among all NFL teams. They have the resources and the need at QB, they're a fine and realistic partner.
That's a lot of assumptions, I wouldn't bet on pulling off all those moving parts in your favor.
If they fail to trade up for the blue chip target, then what? You're staring at a 2019 roster likely minus Eli, and you've pissed away a great shot at his successor.
I'm operating under the assumption they don't like the QBs in this thread, for me it goes without saying that you take the QB if you like one. Trade down should be the fallback.
the quantity is alluring when you've got a pile of holes to fill.
But, Eli's out of here soon, they can't afford to fuck this pick up.
I am wondering if you have some information about the Giants current draft plans that you're not sharing. I have been an avid supporter of drafting a QB at 2, assuming of course that the Giants feel he has franchise QB upside. I fully expect them to come away with a QB in the first round and from your posts you clearly do as well.
No inside info, it's too early in the process and with DG now in charge, I don't know how much I'll hear. It just makes the most sense to me in terms of maximizing a rare #2 overall pick, if you believe in the player you covet is a franchise changer.
Understood. It will be very interesting to see how they handle the pick if their #1 target is gone. Will Chubb or Barkley carry the grade versus Rosen, for example, is a big question mark.
looks like that "story" was poached from CBSSports.com... Â
they had a very similar made up scenario about ten days ago...#2 for #21 and #22 and Cordy Glenn...I think that's a copyright violation...
"2. Buffalo Bills (from NYG)
Josh Rosen, QB, UCLA. The Bills have the ammo to move up, and packaging their two first-round picks would be enough to get into the top 10. If they throw in left tackle Cordy Glenn and another later pick, would that be enough to get to No. 2? There's obviously a familiarity between the teams' GMs thanks to their Carolina connections. If a trade like this happens, the Bills get a pro-ready franchise quarterback and try to build on last year's playoff run, while the Giants get potentially three starters for the price of one, depending on how they use No. 21 and No. 22."
21. New York Giants (from BUF)
Orlando Brown, OT, Oklahoma. The Giants are finally on the board. After moving down with the Bills at the top of this draft, they pick up a left tackle in Cordy Glenn, and here they draft a bookend for the right side. Brown should be an above average right tackle from Day 1, but the team could use him on the left side initially depending on Glenn's recovery. Either way, they get the offensive line help they desperately need.
22. New York Giants (from BUF)
Billy Price, C, Ohio State. Adding offensive linemen isn't sexy, but considering how bad the Giants' line has been, doesn't it make sense to throw every resource imaginable at fixing it? If Weston Richburg leaves in free agency, adding Price makes sense, and even if restricted free agent Brett Jones is retained, he can serve as depth or start at guard. The emphasis should be on adding talent in bunches and figuring out how the starting unit shakes out later."
Now this is of course we want the same QB. We pick the QB we want. They then pick what we want at 20/21 IF available we get who we want in the 1st. Then trade (and we use the other extra picks as we see fit).
The Giants roster is seriously devoid of depth, given Reese's horrid draft record.
They make a deal along these parameters - between what they receive from the Bills and their own picks - that 12 picks in Rounds 1-3 this year and next. The Giants are are a 2-year rebuild - when you go 3-13, you have to tear it down. Those clamoring for a QB now need to realize this team could be picking in the Top 5 next year.
RE: With all our needs I would definitely entertain this Â
Getting the 21st, 22nd, our 36th, and the Bills 53rd gives us 4 players in the top 1.5 rounds. Plus they mentioned getting Cordy Glenn. So we get 4 top draft picks and a starting left tackle. Whats not to like, especially if we think Webb can be the next QB. So we'd get a LT, another OL player like Williams, a top RB, and two guys in the 2nd who could contribute right away. We fix our OL and RB in the 1st round, and add top players in the 2nd.
I would try and negotiate on this, but it definitely has promise.
Last time I checked, 32*1.5=/=53. Unless you also think the Jets, at #6, have the top overall pick in the draft.
What's not to like is that talent distribution is not linear. It tends to drop off most rapidly closer to the top of the draft, so you can actually make the argument that a team is better off with fewer, but higher, picks, and then supplementing their picks with UDFAs, rather than trying to stockpile picks behind the initial wave of top talent.
RE: RE: With all our needs I would definitely entertain this Â
Getting the 21st, 22nd, our 36th, and the Bills 53rd gives us 4 players in the top 1.5 rounds. Plus they mentioned getting Cordy Glenn. So we get 4 top draft picks and a starting left tackle. Whats not to like, especially if we think Webb can be the next QB. So we'd get a LT, another OL player like Williams, a top RB, and two guys in the 2nd who could contribute right away. We fix our OL and RB in the 1st round, and add top players in the 2nd.
I would try and negotiate on this, but it definitely has promise.
Last time I checked, 32*1.5=/=53. Unless you also think the Jets, at #6, have the top overall pick in the draft.
What's not to like is that talent distribution is not linear. It tends to drop off most rapidly closer to the top of the draft, so you can actually make the argument that a team is better off with fewer, but higher, picks, and then supplementing their picks with UDFAs, rather than trying to stockpile picks behind the initial wave of top talent.
Oh, sorry. I made a small math mistake. My opinion still holds. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, this is what its about is opinions. IF we can get 2 other top picks in the first 1.5 rounds, a LT, and another high pick next year, my opinion is its something that needs to be considered. I didn't say to do it, I just think dismissing it immediately doesn't make sense.
Giants probably get both 1s, both 2s, and at least one future 1. Maybe another.
That range of picks is the sweet spot for OL and LB talent. The OL would be rebuilt before round 3 with cheap talent and the defense would be ready to roll with actual nfl caliber players at the LB position.
We were 11/5 2years ago. We do not need a QB now, ELI is going to get his shot with a better cast. Especially with these extra picks and new TALENT evaluation. Our Offense is loaded if we get OL help and a top RB. Our defense is ready to go as well. Any new QB will sit for at least 2years unless ELI implodes , which I do not see if he gets protection.
We were 11/5 2years ago. We do not need a QB now, ELI is going to get his shot with a better cast. Especially with these extra picks and new TALENT evaluation. Our Offense is loaded if we get OL help and a top RB. Our defense is ready to go as well. Any new QB will sit for at least 2years unless ELI implodes , which I do not see if he gets protection.
This^ Some of you guys are over the top. If I'm Buff's GM I'd laugh at those packages
We were 11/5 2years ago. We do not need a QB now, ELI is going to get his shot with a better cast. Especially with these extra picks and new TALENT evaluation. Our Offense is loaded if we get OL help and a top RB. Our defense is ready to go as well. Any new QB will sit for at least 2years unless ELI implodes , which I do not see if he gets protection.
Eli is 37. And will get older every year.
It's entirely possible that the Giants decided to forego a QB with the #2 overall pick. But if they do, it will be because they don't believe one of the QB prospects available is worth the #2 pick, not because they think that Eli has several years left.
Continuing to repeat the same thing on every thread because that's what you hope will happen doesn't make it any more realistic or likely. And it certainly isn't going to stop Eli from aging.
No inside info, it's too early in the process and with DG now in charge, I don't know how much I'll hear. It just makes the most sense to me in terms of maximizing a rare #2 overall pick, if you believe in the player you covet is a franchise changer.
You and I are in full agreement about the value of using the #2 pick on a QB. Now I am not saying just take a QB for the sake of it obviously. I was relieved to hear Gettleman talk about being in QB hell by being a 7-9 to 9-7 team that isn't in range to get their franchise QB to make them a contender. With the development of Carson Wentz it is vital for the Giants to get their QB or else the Eagles will be perennial NFC East champs.
We were 11/5 2years ago. We do not need a QB now, ELI is going to get his shot with a better cast. Especially with these extra picks and new TALENT evaluation. Our Offense is loaded if we get OL help and a top RB. Our defense is ready to go as well. Any new QB will sit for at least 2years unless ELI implodes , which I do not see if he gets protection.
I disagree 100% . First of all we don't know for sure that Eli is going to perform at level high enough to make the playoffs. Look what happened to Peyton Manning. He went from an MVP candidate to one of the league's worst QB's in a year. Now you want to gamble on Eli and pass on a chance to get his successor now? Another thing to consider is that if Eli is gone in a year or two the new QB will have a year or two of experience and will hit the ground running as he will be fully prepared to handle the NFL game. He also would have a full season learning the playbook and learning from a HOF QB on how to prepare day in and day out.
It's having wasted a high pick on an expensive one.. that sucks.
-that's- QB hell.
The thing is, under the new rookie wage scale, QBs really aren't that expensive. And when you factor in that the draftee will receive the same contract regardless of position, you can make the case that QB is the cheapest position you can draft at #2, relative to the average salary for that position.
No matter who they draft at #2 (assuming they remain at #2), the player needs to be a stud or the pick itself is a miss. But the idea about being in "QB hell" is really about being in that position where you're not good enough to win it all because you don't have a great QB, yet not bad enough to have a good chance at acquiring that QB without paying an exorbitant amount, either in draft capital or cap resources via free agency.
If it was just about the cost of the player drafted at #2, we could just as easily talk about RB hell or DE hell or OG hell or whatever other position they could draft in that spot.
Is if I thought none of the QBs at the top were franchise guys. Then, given how talent bereft the roster is, stocking up on a bunch of 1st and 2nd round picks makes more sense.
But. Even when we won... it was often by close margins. And we've seen some really Wus-Ball teams and seasons.
So. Heart says build a team the has unstoppable line play on both sides. A team with that kind of grit on any given Sunday. Is actually more fun than an occasional big game.
Whereas. I have to admit. I said the same on draft day when we got Manning. Wups.
BUT....have we seen some Wus-ball?
Yes, we have.
And it's not entertaining. At all.
Those arguing for this trade down are saying we are devoid of tale talent and need quanity. Well how does that add up to a turnaround off a 3-13 year with a pair of late round rookies and limited free agent moves? It doesnt
So you go into 2019 armed with more picks and you have good FA money and more rookies.
Odds are you are 1 year away with the rookies & rehauled roster
But...
You have a 39 year old now free agent QB. With a roster ready to compete. Can Eli do it and for how long? What kind of contract do you give him? If he cant do it- how do you get a QB? What if Webb isnt tbe answer? Webb as well can start 2019 BUT he would be on last year of his deal and could be in line for a huge deal even if he's just mediocre. Even if hes very good, is it real like Foles 27TD- 2int 2013 year followed by 3 bad ones.
You have to decide on an old Eli or a 1 year starter Webb or bring in an overpaid FA and thats IF one shakes free or have to draft one or pull a kings ransom trade up.
On whether or not Gettleman and Shurmur are pleased with Webb as a backup and future QB. Passing on this year's QB crop up at the top of round 1 might be something fans wouldn't be pleased with, but gathering high picks and upgrading the mess the rest of the roster is in isn't a bad move either. Maybe the Giants can find a "Jimmy Garroppolo" pick later in the draft. can't say for certian until the new league year and FA starts.
they should!!! This is a QB league and he is going to be a franchise QB. Do not do this trade!! It is a QB league. Get your franchise QB. Don't over think this.
I've warmed to taking a QB with the #2 pick, and Rosen would be my guy if he's there.
But with this trade possibility, and the chance to load up on picks in the front end of the draft, you can make a case for building this team and building it quickly.
If the Giants get the two first round picks from Buffalo, there are still plenty of good players they can take that fit needs in that spot: RB Guice LSU, Billy Price, Orlando Brown, etc.
Another thought -- If the O-Line is taken care of in FA, and its set going in to the draft, and this deal does happen, the Giants still can potentially land a franchise QB with one of those two picks via the trade with Buffalo. Mason Rudolph, Lamar Jackson, and one of the others certainly may fall down in the teens or even low 20's, so you truly never know how it'll play out.
No matter how it plays out, it's going to be fun watching this unfold.
if the Giants don't see value with any potential #2 picks (they aren't sold on any QB/other player at that spot) and the trade team does see value. Obviously, the Giants aren't going to give up someone they think is going to be the next great player just to pick up a bunch of mediocre/good players. there is no guarantee, though, that the Giants see the next can't miss great player sitting there at #2. If they don't, run to the phone and make the trade.
or
the trading team gives up well above the points equivalent. the higher the conviction the Giants have on a player at #2, the higher the price is going to be.
Using the trade value chart, the Bills 4 picks in the first two rounds Â
(21, 22, 53 and 56) don't add up to our first round pick. They could make up the difference with a player or their 2nd round pick next year - if we wanted to trade back that far.
RE: Using the trade value chart, the Bills 4 picks in the first two rounds Â
(21, 22, 53 and 56) don't add up to our first round pick. They could make up the difference with a player or their 2nd round pick next year - if we wanted to trade back that far.
Guess a lot depends on what DG thinks of the talent he can get in this draft with a lot of extra picks in the 1/2 rounds. This is his strong suit - talent evaluation. If he likes one of the QBs he may go that way as well; Interesting stuff no doubt.
One example of what this could do, if we got their 21, 22, and 53rd Â
and Cordy Glenn. Our OL could be
Glenn-Norwell-Jones-Flowers-Pugh (re-sign him), with Wheeler, Bis,and Fluker hanging around as backups. That is significantly improved.
We also could get a top LB (maybe Smith), and top RB with #21 and #22. In the second round we could get another OL player, a DB, another LB, a DL player, etc. Lots of options here.
This would make us a lot better fast. Of course it really depends on what DG thinks of the current Eli and Webb's potential.
RE: One example of what this could do, if we got their 21, 22, and 53rd Â
and Cordy Glenn. Our OL could be
Glenn-Norwell-Jones-Flowers-Pugh (re-sign him), with Wheeler, Bis,and Fluker hanging around as backups. That is significantly improved.
We also could get a top LB (maybe Smith), and top RB with #21 and #22. In the second round we could get another OL player, a DB, another LB, a DL player, etc. Lots of options here.
This would make us a lot better fast. Of course it really depends on what DG thinks of the current Eli and Webb's potential.
How are you planning to afford Norwell when you acquire Glenn and his $11.25MM cap hit and then re-sign Pugh on top of that? Plus the Bills would have to assume the remaining balance of his amortized signing bonus this year, which would be a $9.6MM dead money hit for them.
And that's without considering Glenn's injury history, which should give any reasonable person pause, particularly foot problems for a man his size.
I understand the reasons why trading down seems appealing, but some of the logic behind it seems to suggest that people think if they trade in a $100 bill for 10K pennies that they somehow got richer in the process.
RE: RE: Using the trade value chart, the Bills 4 picks in the first two rounds Â
(21, 22, 53 and 56) don't add up to our first round pick. They could make up the difference with a player or their 2nd round pick next year - if we wanted to trade back that far.
Guess a lot depends on what DG thinks of the talent he can get in this draft with a lot of extra picks in the 1/2 rounds. This is his strong suit - talent evaluation. If he likes one of the QBs he may go that way as well; Interesting stuff no doubt.
That’s right about where the meat in this draft is too.... very interesting
When the pick involves a franchise QB like Rosen Â
You can throw those Draft Pick value charts out the window.
Bills would need to give both round 1 picks, their 2nd rd pick, Glenn, and the Bills 1st and 2nd rd picks for next year to even get this started IMO
+1
Pretty much my thought, though I want 2 starters of their roster or somehow picked up via trade/ FA by them , the 21+22, and 3rd round next year, or,as I was more generous, the 1st and 3rd next year along with the 21+22.
Just for fun, to put names to that draft:
1 - OT Connor Williams (Bills)
1a - RB Derrick Guice (Bills)
2 - OG Will Hernandez
2a - CB Carlton Davis (Bills)
3 - Rush LB Lorenzo Carter
4 - S Armani Watts
4a - OT Alex Kappa (Comp)
5 - DT Lowell Lotulelei
6 - DE Joe Ostman
1st 2019 & conditional 2nd or 3rd.
5 for 1 . I'd look at that
Quote:
It is a click-bait site that has no credibility.
+1
+2
the writer is just a kid in his basement and pretty much everything hes said has turned out to be false.
props to 247 to get so many people to fall for their crap articles tho
I agree with you on the compensation, but even if they are right about Rosen, rookie QBs typically don't win a lot. There is still a big jump in talent, and they will have to play 4 games against the AFC South division next year, becoming perhaps the toughest division in the NFL, 4 games against the NFC North division, which might be even tougher, and then a game against Baltimore and the LA Chargers, in addition to having to play Brady twice. If you're going to make a projection of them, I would say that a top 5 pick in next year's draft is a reasonable prediction, a top 10 pick is likely.
Quote:
Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
Just for fun, to put names to that draft:
1 - OT Connor Williams (Bills)
1a - RB Derrick Guice (Bills)
2 - OG Will Hernandez
2a - CB Carlton Davis (Bills)
3 - Rush LB Lorenzo Carter
4 - S Armani Watts
4a - OT Alex Kappa (Comp)
5 - DT Lowell Lotulelei
6 - DE Joe Ostman
Not bad at all. I would end with a LB and OL heavy draft
1 - C Billy Price
1B - OLB Harold Landry
2a - OL Braden Smith
2B - LB Leighton Vander Esche
3rd - RB Penny
4a - OT Alex Cappa
4b - LB Shaquem Griffin
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In comment 13833566 Jay on the Island said:
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Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
Just for fun, to put names to that draft:
1 - OT Connor Williams (Bills)
1a - RB Derrick Guice (Bills)
2 - OG Will Hernandez
2a - CB Carlton Davis (Bills)
3 - Rush LB Lorenzo Carter
4 - S Armani Watts
4a - OT Alex Kappa (Comp)
5 - DT Lowell Lotulelei
6 - DE Joe Ostman
Not bad at all. I would end with a LB and OL heavy draft
1 - C Billy Price
1B - OLB Harold Landry
2a - OL Braden Smith
2B - LB Leighton Vander Esche
3rd - RB Penny
4a - OT Alex Cappa
4b - LB Shaquem Griffin
Also good.
I would not trade that opportunity for picks 21 & 22
If Buffalo really wants to trade up they should do what Philadelphia did and acquire a top 5 pick to trade up to 2
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In comment 13833566 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Is if Buffalo gives up both first round picks this year plus a 2nd and their 2019 1st and 2nd round picks. The Bills have talent they just need a QB so if they are right about Rosen their 2019 1st round pick will likely be in the 20's also.
Just for fun, to put names to that draft:
1 - OT Connor Williams (Bills)
1a - RB Derrick Guice (Bills)
2 - OG Will Hernandez
2a - CB Carlton Davis (Bills)
3 - Rush LB Lorenzo Carter
4 - S Armani Watts
4a - OT Alex Kappa (Comp)
5 - DT Lowell Lotulelei
6 - DE Joe Ostman
Not bad at all. I would end with a LB and OL heavy draft
1 - C Billy Price
1B - OLB Harold Landry
2a - OL Braden Smith
2B - LB Leighton Vander Esche
3rd - RB Penny
4a - OT Alex Cappa
4b - LB Shaquem Griffin
And no future blue chip QB prospect to bridge us away from Eli in 2019 ...
The Giants are on their way to becoming the bills and jets (i.e. in a continuous search for a franchise qb that could span over a decade) if they pass up on one of the top 2 qbs. So in order to prevent that, they would need to be in a place to move up based on a possible 7-9/8-8/9-7 record over the next two years, placing them at middle of the draft or worse. And since 2019 looks like a light year for college qbs right now, they need to look to 2020, so having multiple numbers 1s in both years is a must.
Now, if most of you think what I wrote was insane, I would agree with you. Obtaining multiple years worth of first round picks spanning 3 drafts from a team is insane. So, rather than the Giants placing themselves in a situation where they are going to trade up to a spot where they are right now only to HOPE to have a chance at a qb as good as Darnold/Rosen, how bout they just take that qb right now instead of their strategy over the next few seasons being purely and entirely based on hope.
Seems like a lot of the giants strategy over the past 5 seasons has been purely based I hope. How's that worked out?
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In comment 13833555 Diver_Down said:
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It is a click-bait site that has no credibility.
+1
+2
the writer is just a kid in his basement and pretty much everything hes said has turned out to be false.
props to 247 to get so many people to fall for their crap articles tho
247 Sports and Clutchpoints are trash.
Giants need blue chip talent at #2 overall, quality over quantity.
But a willingness to drop that far depends a lot on how you view Darnold and Rosen. As I've said, Rosen is the best player in the draft, but his injury history would almost certainly preclude me from taking him at #2. I'd therefore be more likely to do a deal if the Browns take Darnold. But even if they don't, a deal like that would still be intriguing.
Agreed. My guess is that all three QBs acquit themselves very well at the combine. It's a controlled environment where they can really showcase their skills.
But a willingness to drop that far depends a lot on how you view Darnold and Rosen. As I've said, Rosen is the best player in the draft, but his injury history would almost certainly preclude me from taking him at #2. I'd therefore be more likely to do a deal if the Browns take Darnold. But even if they don't, a deal like that would still be intriguing.
+1
2. It is a long way to drop
3. The proposed trade in the article (Giants #2 overall for Bills 2 first round picks, Cordy Glenn, and Bills 2nd) is not good enough.
4. Here is the way I would do it:
- Bills send picks #21 and #22
- Bills send pick #53
- Bills send their first round pick in 2019
- Bills send their 2nd round pick in 2020
- Bills send the Giants Cordy Glenn (a player who they are considering cutting anyway for cap reasons)
- Giants send Bills the #2 overall pick.
5. Bill select the QB they want, the Giants can stay at 21 and 22, and use one of those picks on a 2nd tier QB (like Mike White or Mason Rudolph) and draft the best OL available.
Or they can take the 22nd and 53rd pick and try to move up about 7 spots to the middle of the first round and select what remains of the first group of QBs after Darnold, Rosen, and Mayfield. So Allen, Jackson, maybe Rudolph).
Or you take the 22nd and 53rd, move up and take the best OT available or an edge rusher like Marcus Davenport, and use pick 21 on Rudolph, Jackson, or White.
Agree 100% that it is a long way to drop back, but it's not unthinkable.
Giants need blue chip talent at #2 overall, quality over quantity.
A point that is very hard to argue with.
That's a lot of assumptions, I wouldn't bet on pulling off all those moving parts in your favor.
If they fail to trade up for the blue chip target, then what? You're staring at a 2019 roster likely minus Eli, and you've pissed away a great shot at his successor.
But, Eli's out of here soon, they can't afford to fuck this pick up.
The Bills arent giving them 4 picks. Its 2 picks. You are giving them credit for something they wouldn’t be doing.
Sure 4 picks in the top 60 would be nice. But guess what? The Giants already have 3 of those picks right now.
You know what’s nicer? 1 pick out of the top 2 in the draft.
I would try and negotiate on this, but it definitely has promise.
This deal stinks.
But, Eli's out of here soon, they can't afford to fuck this pick up.
I am wondering if you have some information about the Giants current draft plans that you're not sharing. I have been an avid supporter of drafting a QB at 2, assuming of course that the Giants feel he has franchise QB upside. I fully expect them to come away with a QB in the first round and from your posts you clearly do as well.
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And trade back up to grab your blue chip of choice while still holding onto some of those smaller resources. If we're using the "trade value chart" as an objective measure, they have one of the highest point totals among all NFL teams. They have the resources and the need at QB, they're a fine and realistic partner.
That's a lot of assumptions, I wouldn't bet on pulling off all those moving parts in your favor.
If they fail to trade up for the blue chip target, then what? You're staring at a 2019 roster likely minus Eli, and you've pissed away a great shot at his successor.
I'm operating under the assumption they don't like the QBs in this thread, for me it goes without saying that you take the QB if you like one. Trade down should be the fallback.
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the quantity is alluring when you've got a pile of holes to fill.
But, Eli's out of here soon, they can't afford to fuck this pick up.
I am wondering if you have some information about the Giants current draft plans that you're not sharing. I have been an avid supporter of drafting a QB at 2, assuming of course that the Giants feel he has franchise QB upside. I fully expect them to come away with a QB in the first round and from your posts you clearly do as well.
No inside info, it's too early in the process and with DG now in charge, I don't know how much I'll hear. It just makes the most sense to me in terms of maximizing a rare #2 overall pick, if you believe in the player you covet is a franchise changer.
"2. Buffalo Bills (from NYG)
Josh Rosen, QB, UCLA. The Bills have the ammo to move up, and packaging their two first-round picks would be enough to get into the top 10. If they throw in left tackle Cordy Glenn and another later pick, would that be enough to get to No. 2? There's obviously a familiarity between the teams' GMs thanks to their Carolina connections. If a trade like this happens, the Bills get a pro-ready franchise quarterback and try to build on last year's playoff run, while the Giants get potentially three starters for the price of one, depending on how they use No. 21 and No. 22."
21. New York Giants (from BUF)
Orlando Brown, OT, Oklahoma. The Giants are finally on the board. After moving down with the Bills at the top of this draft, they pick up a left tackle in Cordy Glenn, and here they draft a bookend for the right side. Brown should be an above average right tackle from Day 1, but the team could use him on the left side initially depending on Glenn's recovery. Either way, they get the offensive line help they desperately need.
22. New York Giants (from BUF)
Billy Price, C, Ohio State. Adding offensive linemen isn't sexy, but considering how bad the Giants' line has been, doesn't it make sense to throw every resource imaginable at fixing it? If Weston Richburg leaves in free agency, adding Price makes sense, and even if restricted free agent Brett Jones is retained, he can serve as depth or start at guard. The emphasis should be on adding talent in bunches and figuring out how the starting unit shakes out later."
Link - ( New Window )
Now this is of course we want the same QB. We pick the QB we want. They then pick what we want at 20/21 IF available we get who we want in the 1st. Then trade (and we use the other extra picks as we see fit).
Both 2018 2nd round picks
2018 3rd round pick
2019 1st round pick
2019 2nd round pick
The Giants roster is seriously devoid of depth, given Reese's horrid draft record.
They make a deal along these parameters - between what they receive from the Bills and their own picks - that 12 picks in Rounds 1-3 this year and next. The Giants are are a 2-year rebuild - when you go 3-13, you have to tear it down. Those clamoring for a QB now need to realize this team could be picking in the Top 5 next year.
I would try and negotiate on this, but it definitely has promise.
Last time I checked, 32*1.5=/=53. Unless you also think the Jets, at #6, have the top overall pick in the draft.
What's not to like is that talent distribution is not linear. It tends to drop off most rapidly closer to the top of the draft, so you can actually make the argument that a team is better off with fewer, but higher, picks, and then supplementing their picks with UDFAs, rather than trying to stockpile picks behind the initial wave of top talent.
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Getting the 21st, 22nd, our 36th, and the Bills 53rd gives us 4 players in the top 1.5 rounds. Plus they mentioned getting Cordy Glenn. So we get 4 top draft picks and a starting left tackle. Whats not to like, especially if we think Webb can be the next QB. So we'd get a LT, another OL player like Williams, a top RB, and two guys in the 2nd who could contribute right away. We fix our OL and RB in the 1st round, and add top players in the 2nd.
I would try and negotiate on this, but it definitely has promise.
Last time I checked, 32*1.5=/=53. Unless you also think the Jets, at #6, have the top overall pick in the draft.
What's not to like is that talent distribution is not linear. It tends to drop off most rapidly closer to the top of the draft, so you can actually make the argument that a team is better off with fewer, but higher, picks, and then supplementing their picks with UDFAs, rather than trying to stockpile picks behind the initial wave of top talent.
Oh, sorry. I made a small math mistake. My opinion still holds. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, this is what its about is opinions. IF we can get 2 other top picks in the first 1.5 rounds, a LT, and another high pick next year, my opinion is its something that needs to be considered. I didn't say to do it, I just think dismissing it immediately doesn't make sense.
Giants probably get both 1s, both 2s, and at least one future 1. Maybe another.
That range of picks is the sweet spot for OL and LB talent. The OL would be rebuilt before round 3 with cheap talent and the defense would be ready to roll with actual nfl caliber players at the LB position.
This^ Some of you guys are over the top. If I'm Buff's GM I'd laugh at those packages
Eli is 37. And will get older every year.
It's entirely possible that the Giants decided to forego a QB with the #2 overall pick. But if they do, it will be because they don't believe one of the QB prospects available is worth the #2 pick, not because they think that Eli has several years left.
Continuing to repeat the same thing on every thread because that's what you hope will happen doesn't make it any more realistic or likely. And it certainly isn't going to stop Eli from aging.
No inside info, it's too early in the process and with DG now in charge, I don't know how much I'll hear. It just makes the most sense to me in terms of maximizing a rare #2 overall pick, if you believe in the player you covet is a franchise changer.
You and I are in full agreement about the value of using the #2 pick on a QB. Now I am not saying just take a QB for the sake of it obviously. I was relieved to hear Gettleman talk about being in QB hell by being a 7-9 to 9-7 team that isn't in range to get their franchise QB to make them a contender. With the development of Carson Wentz it is vital for the Giants to get their QB or else the Eagles will be perennial NFC East champs.
-that's- QB hell.
I disagree 100% . First of all we don't know for sure that Eli is going to perform at level high enough to make the playoffs. Look what happened to Peyton Manning. He went from an MVP candidate to one of the league's worst QB's in a year. Now you want to gamble on Eli and pass on a chance to get his successor now? Another thing to consider is that if Eli is gone in a year or two the new QB will have a year or two of experience and will hit the ground running as he will be fully prepared to handle the NFL game. He also would have a full season learning the playbook and learning from a HOF QB on how to prepare day in and day out.
But that comes with fundamentals.
Instead I’d take both 1s both 2s and their 3rd
-that's- QB hell.
The thing is, under the new rookie wage scale, QBs really aren't that expensive. And when you factor in that the draftee will receive the same contract regardless of position, you can make the case that QB is the cheapest position you can draft at #2, relative to the average salary for that position.
No matter who they draft at #2 (assuming they remain at #2), the player needs to be a stud or the pick itself is a miss. But the idea about being in "QB hell" is really about being in that position where you're not good enough to win it all because you don't have a great QB, yet not bad enough to have a good chance at acquiring that QB without paying an exorbitant amount, either in draft capital or cap resources via free agency.
If it was just about the cost of the player drafted at #2, we could just as easily talk about RB hell or DE hell or OG hell or whatever other position they could draft in that spot.
Let’s do it I’m all for it Webb will be fine if not Giants can always move up in 2019 draft to get a QB
So. Heart says build a team the has unstoppable line play on both sides. A team with that kind of grit on any given Sunday. Is actually more fun than an occasional big game.
Whereas. I have to admit. I said the same on draft day when we got Manning. Wups.
BUT....have we seen some Wus-ball?
Yes, we have.
And it's not entertaining. At all.
We amass a ton of picks over 18 & 19.
But rookies take time.
Those arguing for this trade down are saying we are devoid of tale talent and need quanity. Well how does that add up to a turnaround off a 3-13 year with a pair of late round rookies and limited free agent moves? It doesnt
So you go into 2019 armed with more picks and you have good FA money and more rookies.
Odds are you are 1 year away with the rookies & rehauled roster
But...
You have a 39 year old now free agent QB. With a roster ready to compete. Can Eli do it and for how long? What kind of contract do you give him? If he cant do it- how do you get a QB? What if Webb isnt tbe answer? Webb as well can start 2019 BUT he would be on last year of his deal and could be in line for a huge deal even if he's just mediocre. Even if hes very good, is it real like Foles 27TD- 2int 2013 year followed by 3 bad ones.
You have to decide on an old Eli or a 1 year starter Webb or bring in an overpaid FA and thats IF one shakes free or have to draft one or pull a kings ransom trade up.
The road to QB hell.
But with this trade possibility, and the chance to load up on picks in the front end of the draft, you can make a case for building this team and building it quickly.
If the Giants get the two first round picks from Buffalo, there are still plenty of good players they can take that fit needs in that spot: RB Guice LSU, Billy Price, Orlando Brown, etc.
Another thought -- If the O-Line is taken care of in FA, and its set going in to the draft, and this deal does happen, the Giants still can potentially land a franchise QB with one of those two picks via the trade with Buffalo. Mason Rudolph, Lamar Jackson, and one of the others certainly may fall down in the teens or even low 20's, so you truly never know how it'll play out.
No matter how it plays out, it's going to be fun watching this unfold.
or
the trading team gives up well above the points equivalent. the higher the conviction the Giants have on a player at #2, the higher the price is going to be.
Glenn-Norwell-Jones-Flowers-Pugh (re-sign him), with Wheeler, Bis,and Fluker hanging around as backups. That is significantly improved.
We also could get a top LB (maybe Smith), and top RB with #21 and #22. In the second round we could get another OL player, a DB, another LB, a DL player, etc. Lots of options here.
This would make us a lot better fast. Of course it really depends on what DG thinks of the current Eli and Webb's potential.
Glenn-Norwell-Jones-Flowers-Pugh (re-sign him), with Wheeler, Bis,and Fluker hanging around as backups. That is significantly improved.
We also could get a top LB (maybe Smith), and top RB with #21 and #22. In the second round we could get another OL player, a DB, another LB, a DL player, etc. Lots of options here.
This would make us a lot better fast. Of course it really depends on what DG thinks of the current Eli and Webb's potential.
How are you planning to afford Norwell when you acquire Glenn and his $11.25MM cap hit and then re-sign Pugh on top of that? Plus the Bills would have to assume the remaining balance of his amortized signing bonus this year, which would be a $9.6MM dead money hit for them.
And that's without considering Glenn's injury history, which should give any reasonable person pause, particularly foot problems for a man his size.
I understand the reasons why trading down seems appealing, but some of the logic behind it seems to suggest that people think if they trade in a $100 bill for 10K pennies that they somehow got richer in the process.
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(21, 22, 53 and 56) don't add up to our first round pick. They could make up the difference with a player or their 2nd round pick next year - if we wanted to trade back that far.
Guess a lot depends on what DG thinks of the talent he can get in this draft with a lot of extra picks in the 1/2 rounds. This is his strong suit - talent evaluation. If he likes one of the QBs he may go that way as well; Interesting stuff no doubt.
That’s right about where the meat in this draft is too.... very interesting
Bills would need to give both round 1 picks, their 2nd rd pick, Glenn, and the Bills 1st and 2nd rd picks for next year to even get this started IMO