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Reasonable Plan to point our OL in the right direction

Pep22 : 2/16/2018 8:34 am

LT: battle of Flowers/Wheeler (Unfortunately, I just cannot envision doing better given how FA and the draft project)

LG: Norwell

C: Brett Jones, backed up by a guy I think will be a UDFA Brian Allen from Michigan State (Shurmur was a C at MSU

RG: Reasonably cheap FA = Joe Berger (from Minny; he's 35 but is a versatile interior lineman). Then best OG available at pick 34 (Isiah Wynn, Will Hernandez, Braden Smith etc.)

RT: Alex Kappa (Rd 5), backed up by Bisnowaty or maybe Flowers is swung here although I don't see it

Summary: I would love to replace Flowers but I don't see it happening. I think dedicating $13mm a year to a rising 26 year old is the biggest move NYG will make. I like Brett Jones a lot and Brian Allen is similar as a back-up C (not physically gifted but a bulldog in his approach). At RG, Berger is a bridge to the RD 2 draft pick and then becomes a quality backup for 3 interior OL positions. RT was such a problem with Bobby Hart barely knowing who to block let alone having the talent to do so. Kappa is a 6'7" small college kid who is tough as nails, seems to react well to coaching and does not have a strength deficit.

Is this a complete solution? No. But with a likely QB pick at 2 and other holes to fill, I think a plan like this plus Shurmur's expertise, these are several very good first steps.

Side note: as developmental players on our current roster, I do like Ethan Cooper and Jessaman Dunker.
Pep22...  
M.S. : 2/16/2018 8:44 am : link
...I would like to think of your plan as a baseline minimum.

If we can't at least get an upgrade to your plan, we're looking at 4-5 wins max.

My question: Can Eli thrive behind your revised front wall?

I think the team  
Beer Man : 2/16/2018 8:50 am : link
Can do much better than that in the off-season
I like  
Dr. D : 2/16/2018 8:50 am : link
that your plan doesn't involve Richburg or Pugh.
Giants  
PaulN : 2/16/2018 8:51 am : link
Will do better then Flowers.
I do not see Flowers  
johnnyb : 2/16/2018 8:52 am : link
returning to LT. RT maybe, or a move inside, but not LT.

Who will be the LT then? That is the million dollar question.
Berger would be a decent addition  
jeff57 : 2/16/2018 8:56 am : link
Cappa wouldn't be bad in the fourth/fifth round. But they need to do more. If they get Norwell, taking someone like Price or Daniels at 34 to play center would be one.
that's fair  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 8:57 am : link
I just think some think we will have unlimited resources to drastically change things. For example, I just don't know how to fix LT this year other than hope/develop Flowers/Wheeler.

For the interior, I do really like the idea of Norwell/Jones and a high end OG picked in Rd 2. (Wynn/Hernandez/Smith are awfully impressive).

I do think RT, relatively speaking, is an easy problem to solve. I am not saying its easy to find an all pro, but its so often the case that a good college LT doesn't quite have the feet to play LT in the pros so he makes an effective shift to RT (many guys in this draft fit this profile).
RE: Berger would be a decent addition  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 8:58 am : link
In comment 13834272 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Cappa wouldn't be bad in the fourth/fifth round. But they need to do more. If they get Norwell, taking someone like Price or Daniels at 34 to play center would be one.


Price or Daniels or a top OG (i.e. Wynn/Hernandez/Smith).
Flowers  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 9:00 am : link
Look - we all want a better LT and him replaced. If that guy is not Wheeler, I cannot come up w a viable solution nor have a seen a viable solution suggested.
...  
christian : 2/16/2018 9:01 am : link
The Giants are in a deficit mainly because the draft investment in Pugh and Richberg didn't pan out.

Players selected that high should turn into good players. The system is designed to pay good players a progressive amount of money, so that good players on their second contract make more than the previous class of players.

With a straight face are either of those guys 7-9M guys?

"Pep -22: You call that a Reasonable Plan??"  
Jimmy Googs : 2/16/2018 9:03 am : link

Sincerely,

Eli
RE: ...  
johnnyb : 2/16/2018 9:03 am : link
In comment 13834281 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants are in a deficit mainly because the draft investment in Pugh and Richberg didn't pan out.

Players selected that high should turn into good players. The system is designed to pay good players a progressive amount of money, so that good players on their second contract make more than the previous class of players.

With a straight face are either of those guys 7-9M guys?


You left out Flowers as a reason for their deficit. Pick number 9 is a bust.
Pointing is not enough. OL needs priority over everything else.  
Marty in Albany : 2/16/2018 9:04 am : link
Not just one high profile addition. Not just keeping 8 OL players on the roster during the season.
RE:  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 9:06 am : link
In comment 13834283 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Sincerely,

Eli


I think its unlikely they do better than additions via:

1) priciest OG in NFL history via FA
2) premium pick (34th selection)
3) modest FA aquisition
4) mid rounder

there are no Tony Boselli's readily available
I’m not sure if I like these 6’7” guys because it seems  
NikkiMac : 2/16/2018 9:06 am : link
That when these edge rushers get a lot of bend the only way these guys stop that is the neck strangle which is holding and usually right out there in front of the referee ..... Wheeler has to revert to this move sometimes and so does Flowers for that matter but I have seen this from other very tall lineman in the league also.
Totally agree. I know that the team has other flaws but  
Jimmy Googs : 2/16/2018 9:09 am : link
Giants should use that #2 pick on our next QB, and then figure out a way to best utilize almost every available resource we have to improve each position on that O-line.

Otherwise, I simply don't know what we are doing here...
Not a strong rebuild.  
VinegarPeppers : 2/16/2018 9:15 am : link
IMHO, with all due respect.

If I have too, I take OG Nelson with #1. Or OT McClatchy if I can’t sign Nick Soldier in FA. Then I really want OG Will Hernandez, a total road grater with my #2. Then I slap Flowers or Pugh in at RT and Richburg or Jones at C and I think the OL is fixed.

Lots of ifs...admittedly...but any trade down to a top 10-12 first round slot should get this possibility going.
They need to not focus on exact positions & just get a good 9  
Eric on Li : 2/16/2018 9:16 am : link
Sign Norwell or Solder and that's (#1)
As much as people won't like to hear it, Flowers is likely playing at either T spot (#2)
Sign a vet C to short term (possibly Richburg on a prove it) to compete with Jones (that's #3 & #4)
Draft two guys, at least 1 of them high enough to start day 1 on the interior (#5 & #6)
Jerry is under contract but nothing should be handed to him (#7)
Wheeler likely beats out Biz for (#8) since he's more talented
Open camp competition for (#9)

That's basically the minimum I expect. If they trade down in the draft Nelson comes into play. Bringing someone like Fluker back on a 1 year deal is also within the realm of possibility. In fact, it's likely they sign multiple veteran lineman even though it's probably only possible to get 1 pencil in starter.
The Giants can't ignore the offensive line like you suggest  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 9:20 am : link
Alex Cappa will likely be a 3rd or 4th round pick and he is extremely raw. He won't be able to step in and start day one. I don't want to see the Giants go crazy in FA to fix the offensive line but this is what I would prefer to see:

Sign: Chris Hubbard OT, C John Sullivan, G/C Zach Fulton
Re-sign: Fluker
Draft: 2nd round Braden Smith or Isaiah Wynn, 4th round OT Alex Cappa

LT Wheeler/Cappa
LG Fulton
C Sullivan/Jones
RG Smith or Wynn/Fluker
RT Flowers/ Cappa

I fully expect the Giants to sign Norwell but I went with the much less expensive but solid Zach Fulton.
I'm sorry Pep  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 9:30 am : link
Somehow I missed that you signed Norwell.
Just disregard my entire post  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 9:31 am : link
lol
RE: The Giants can't ignore the offensive line like you suggest  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 9:32 am : link
In comment 13834302 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Alex Cappa will likely be a 3rd or 4th round pick and he is extremely raw. He won't be able to step in and start day one. I don't want to see the Giants go crazy in FA to fix the offensive line but this is what I would prefer to see:

Sign: Chris Hubbard OT, C John Sullivan, G/C Zach Fulton
Re-sign: Fluker
Draft: 2nd round Braden Smith or Isaiah Wynn, 4th round OT Alex Cappa

LT Wheeler/Cappa
LG Fulton
C Sullivan/Jones
RG Smith or Wynn/Fluker
RT Flowers/ Cappa

I fully expect the Giants to sign Norwell but I went with the much less expensive but solid Zach Fulton.


Kappa is very likable but I'd be shocked if he ended up being a pro LT. Seems more like a RT in terms of movement skills.
Not Reasonable  
Bruner4329 : 2/16/2018 9:33 am : link
Any plan that has Flowers. Wheeler and a 5th round draft pick as our starting tackles is not reasonable. Sorry how much more of Flowers do we need to see to confirm he either gets moved inside or cut. Wheeler is a project. You don't pencil in projects to be a starting tackle.
RE: RE: The Giants can't ignore the offensive line like you suggest  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 9:45 am : link
In comment 13834320 Pep22 said:
Quote:



Kappa is very likable but I'd be shocked if he ended up being a pro LT. Seems more like a RT in terms of movement skills.

It's Cappa but you are probably right. In time he could develop into a solid LT but is more likely suited to RT. When Sy said that he felt Smith could play LT that made him very intriguing. I hope the Giants draft him and let him and Wheeler, and possibly a cheap veteran option battle for the LT job. If Wheeler is looking good early shift Smith back to G.
Sorry, but that is a recipe  
Reb8thVA : 2/16/2018 9:46 am : link
for another five years of futility and lost opportunity. At a minimum, this team needs to come out of FA and the draft with at least two lineman than can be cornerstones going forward toward building a solid OL. Putting Pugh aside, there are no Tackles on this roster the team can rely on and we don't need any more developmental picks. We have two in Wheeler and Bisnowatty. Ideally one of those two cornerstones will be an LT. If not, you let Flowers play LT next year and see if he improves but you hedge your bets by signing an experienced LT that can provide competition and insurance, for another year until the next draft. If Donald Penn shakes lose again, he might be some one to consider.
RE: Not Reasonable  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 9:46 am : link
In comment 13834324 Bruner4329 said:
Quote:
Any plan that has Flowers. Wheeler and a 5th round draft pick as our starting tackles is not reasonable. Sorry how much more of Flowers do we need to see to confirm he either gets moved inside or cut. Wheeler is a project. You don't pencil in projects to be a starting tackle.

Chris Hubbard is a very likely option for Gettleman at RT.
I think a good starting point might be  
Beer Man : 2/16/2018 9:59 am : link
LT Wheeler
LG Norwell
C Draftee/Jones
RG Fluker
RT Flowers
RE: I think a good starting point might be  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 10:05 am : link
In comment 13834367 Beer Man said:
Quote:
LT Wheeler
LG Norwell
C Draftee/Jones
RG Fluker
RT Flowers

That's close but I would prefer either Wynn or Smith in the 2nd round to start at RG plus a 3rd-4th round developmental LT. A cheap option at center for 1 year is John Sullivan. He is 33 but he played surprisingly well for the Rams last season. Let him compete with Jones in camp and if Jones doesn't look like he is the long term answer at center then at least Sullivan gave them another year before they have to find their next center.
I don’t know if Wheeler is capable or not....  
Simms11 : 2/16/2018 10:39 am : link
He had some pretty good snaps last year, but also looked overwhelmed at times. Maybe it was just the fact that he was a rookie, however, I would rather invest in the best Free Agent LT before we get a Guard like Norwell. Solder would be my target, then I would consider drafting a guy like Price (OSU) in the 2nd round, as he plays both Guard and Center. Let him play Guard this year, learn from Jones and transition to Center next year. RG could be another draft pick or resign Fluker, a Hog Mollie. Then put Flowers at RT his more natural position. If he falters this year there then perhaps he’s destined to be a swing tackle in this league?! RT would be easier to fill at that point. Perhaps Wheeler develops and can slide in there then?!

And so my line would look like this:

Solder - Price - Jones - Fluker/Draft Pick - Flowers.....
RE: Not a strong rebuild.  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/16/2018 10:48 am : link
In comment 13834296 VinegarPeppers said:
Quote:
IMHO, with all due respect.

If I have too, I take OG Nelson with #1. Or OT McClatchy if I can’t sign Nick Soldier in FA. Then I really want OG Will Hernandez, a total road grater with my #2. Then I slap Flowers or Pugh in at RT and Richburg or Jones at C and I think the OL is fixed.

Lots of ifs...admittedly...but any trade down to a top 10-12 first round slot should get this possibility going.

Who is McClatchy? Are you talking about McGlinchy? And if so, are you suggesting taking him at #2 overall? Because if so, that's a horrible use of resources. Gettleman would be fired on the spot for that, and you should be tarred and feathered for even putting the idea into the universe if it were to happen.

And Nelson with the #2 pick and then another OG with #34? I get it that the OL is a problem, but you don't cluster draft guards with two of the top 34 picks in the draft.
RE: RE: Not Reasonable  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 13834349 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 13834324 Bruner4329 said:


Quote:


Any plan that has Flowers. Wheeler and a 5th round draft pick as our starting tackles is not reasonable. Sorry how much more of Flowers do we need to see to confirm he either gets moved inside or cut. Wheeler is a project. You don't pencil in projects to be a starting tackle.


Chris Hubbard is a very likely option for Gettleman at RT.


I don't know anything about this guy. Can you give us a thumbnail sketch?
RE: Not a strong rebuild.  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 10:55 am : link
In comment 13834296 VinegarPeppers said:
Quote:
IMHO, with all due respect.

If I have too, I take OG Nelson with #1. Or OT McClatchy if I can’t sign Nick Soldier in FA. Then I really want OG Will Hernandez, a total road grater with my #2. Then I slap Flowers or Pugh in at RT and Richburg or Jones at C and I think the OL is fixed.

Lots of ifs...admittedly...but any trade down to a top 10-12 first round slot should get this possibility going.

That is an awful use of resources. Taking Nelson 2nd overall or significantly reaching for McGlinchey(who will likely go in the teens) over a potential QB of the future is a monumental mistake. I am 100% committed to taking a guard at 34 but using their top two picks on guards is a horrible allocation of resources.
RE: RE: RE: Not Reasonable  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 11:05 am : link
In comment 13834446 Pep22 said:
Quote:



I don't know anything about this guy. Can you give us a thumbnail sketch?

Chris Hubbard is a 26 year old former UDFA who has started at both G and RT. He started 10 games for the Steelers at RT last season and he played very well. He could be a young player on the rise and the worst case scenario is that he is a solid backup that can play RT and both G spots.
thanks  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 11:34 am : link
Jay
RE: I don’t know if Wheeler is capable or not....  
Beer Man : 2/16/2018 11:39 am : link
In comment 13834424 Simms11 said:
Quote:
He had some pretty good snaps last year, but also looked overwhelmed at times. Maybe it was just the fact that he was a rookie, however, I would rather invest in the best Free Agent LT before we get a Guard like Norwell. Solder would be my target, then I would consider drafting a guy like Price (OSU) in the 2nd round, as he plays both Guard and Center. Let him play Guard this year, learn from Jones and transition to Center next year. RG could be another draft pick or resign Fluker, a Hog Mollie. Then put Flowers at RT his more natural position. If he falters this year there then perhaps he’s destined to be a swing tackle in this league?! RT would be easier to fill at that point. Perhaps Wheeler develops and can slide in there then?!

And so my line would look like this:

Solder - Price - Jones - Fluker/Draft Pick - Flowers.....
Wheeler showed he can hold his own pass blocking. He won't be rated as a top LT, but he could benefit if DG can strengthen the other positions along the line
RE: thanks  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 11:40 am : link
In comment 13834499 Pep22 said:
Quote:
Jay

No problem. If Gettleman continues to find solid offensive lineman among former UDFA or mid to late round picks then Hubbard might be one of those finds. Another lesser heralded but improving offensive lineman is Zach Fulton from KC. Fulton is also 26 and he has started 46 games for the Chiefs mostly at guard but last year he played center for the first time and he played well for the Chiefs. He is a former 6th round pick who has very good size.
RE: RE: I don’t know if Wheeler is capable or not....  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 11:41 am : link
In comment 13834505 Beer Man said:
Quote:

Wheeler showed he can hold his own pass blocking. He won't be rated as a top LT, but he could benefit if DG can strengthen the other positions along the line

I think Wheeler is going to come to camp much stronger and he will hopefully stay healthy. If he does those two things then I feel much better about his chances of becoming a solid LT as early as next year.
Wheeler  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 11:45 am : link
I totally agree (added strength). I think he's a much better athlete and more fundamentally sound than Flowers.

I am not saying that in itself is an accomplishment, but I do think he has an edge as we look ahead to handicapping the LT spot
I posted this on another thread, this is what I'm hoping for  
NYG27 : 2/16/2018 11:46 am : link
I'm hoping the Giants spend big and lock up both Solder and Norwell on the left side of the O-Line long term.

Then in the second round, select one of the top center prospects.

On the right side, see if either Flowers and Wheeler can lock down Right Guard and Right Tackle.

For depth, Brett Jones and Adam Bisnowaty have some decent upside potential as center\tackle backups. Plus John Jerry is cheap guard insurance as a backup.

Then the 2019 off-season would be invested in fixing that Right Side of the O-Line if Flowers or Wheeler don't pan out.
1 FA  
old man : 2/16/2018 11:53 am : link
1@34,1@98.
Rinse, Repeat process in '19,if appropriate.
Hopefully Wheeler, Biz, a repositioned Flowers, Fluker?, Nor well?, the 34 and 98 can form an OL so a '19 draft can focus on other top needs at rounds 1+2.
You lost me at Flowers  
JerseyCityJoe : 2/16/2018 12:13 pm : link
There must be a better way.
As I stated previously  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 12:19 pm : link
Flowers
Pep22 : 9:00 am : link : reply
Look - we all want a better LT and him replaced. If that guy is not Wheeler, I cannot come up w a viable solution nor have a seen a viable solution suggested.
...  
est1986 : 2/16/2018 12:24 pm : link
Flowers, $$$$$Norwell, $$Jones, $$$Fluker, $$$$Pugh

draft a guy (prefer OT) & continue to develop Wheeler & Bisnowaty

That will be the upgraded OL in 2018.

Going to have to invest big in the OL this F/A....

Eli's window is closing for real now... its now or never
RE: As I stated previously  
est1986 : 2/16/2018 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13834551 Pep22 said:
Quote:
Flowers
Pep22 : 9:00 am : link : reply
Look - we all want a better LT and him replaced. If that guy is not Wheeler, I cannot come up w a viable solution nor have a seen a viable solution suggested.


Flowers played better than most of the NFL's LT's in the 2nd half of last season... people are going to hate him no matter what but I agree that as bad as Flowers seems the next better option truly might not exist. LT's don't grow on trees and they are probably one of the very hardest positions to develop.... You gonna get rid of Flowers so that Wheeler can be the LT??? You gonna draft a guy at #2 or #34 when Flowers drafted at #9 hasn't quite panned out? Big risk isn't it? Why not go all in on the sure thing in Norwell and bring back a guy we know is very good when healthy in Pugh... that's what I would do.. target Norwell, Pugh, Jones and maybe even Fluker
RE: ...  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 12:31 pm : link
In comment 13834557 est1986 said:
Quote:
Flowers, $$$$$Norwell, $$Jones, $$$Fluker, $$$$Pugh

draft a guy (prefer OT) & continue to develop Wheeler & Bisnowaty

That will be the upgraded OL in 2018.

Going to have to invest big in the OL this F/A....

Eli's window is closing for real now... its now or never


This is really about the OL so I'll keep this short. Eli's window has been closed for a while now. That is painfully obvious. This is all about creating a better situation for the incoming QB, the elite weapons on the outside, the run game etc.
Pugh is the only guy I would re-sign  
PatersonPlank : 2/16/2018 12:38 pm : link
IMO he's the only one who makes a positive difference when he's out there (and yes I know he has an injury history). When on the field he can make a difference for us at either T or G positions. Compare this with Richburg, who was replaced by Jones with no drop-off at all. In fact no one noticed. Same can be said for Jerry and Fluker.
RE: RE: Not a strong rebuild.  
VinegarPeppers : 2/16/2018 12:47 pm : link
I did mean McGlinchy, not McClatchy...brain fart. Yes we need 2 OL men in the first two picks. I would trade down to try to do it because of the financial aspects of it and really wouldn't take the OT first, the OG yes, but a tandem that includes Nelson and Hernandez at OGs will solidity the middle for 10 years, allowing Eli and Webb to step up into the pocket when the OTs are blocking the outside rush.

Of those OL the only one I would consider picking with the second pick in the draft is Nelson. Our needs in the OL are massive. It is the key to improving this offense in a single offseason. The defense will be better just by getting healthy but a trade down will help that too because we should get another 2 in 2018 and a first rounder next season, giving us two and setting us up to pick next year's top QB prospect via trade if necessary.

Thanks for correcting me on the Notre Dame guard. I want to blame a typo but I just screwed up. I know he's McGlinchey.
Blocking Scheme  
Peppers : 2/16/2018 12:50 pm : link
One of the things us as fans have to fully understand is our blocking scheme first before we start plugging in players from Free Agency and the Draft.

While most coaches run multiple schemes they always tend to favor one over the other. For instance, Solari was more of a power zone guy. He likes big mauling guards/centers with athletic tackles that's part of the reason why the line looked better with Fluker and Jones.

Under Shurmur and Hunter, while both are very diverse in their schemes, they use a lot of outside zone. The talent isn't as much of the emphasis here as the coaching is. These guys will have to be smart and athletic across the board. They'll be pulling and blocking in space. If you look at the average weight of the Vikings rebuilt line you see most of the guys are around 300lbs and they are all guys who can move.

Shurmur will exploit defenses with screens. Wr/Te/Rb screens which uses his athletic lineman to his advantage. His diversity and creativity help keep defenses off balance which helps the oline.. Shurmur will run pro spread which also helps take some pressure off the lineman with quick routes and hot reads (crossing routes, flats, short slants, and comebacks). It also helps take pressure off the QB where he'll be throwing to more open WRs.

Thats what I learned by studying a little of Shurmur with the Vikings and some with Philly anyways lol.. rambled on a little bit there. So in conclusion, athleticism is going to be an important part of this OL. Especially at the pivot, he's going to need to be athletic and Richburg fits but the concussion is a bit of a concern and it may be best for him to get a fresh start elsewhere. James Daniels and Billy Price. I think we'll be very high on both. Personally, I'd love to see Norwell and Price next to each other.
RE: RE: RE: Not a strong rebuild.  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/16/2018 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13834582 VinegarPeppers said:
Quote:
I did mean McGlinchy, not McClatchy...brain fart. Yes we need 2 OL men in the first two picks. I would trade down to try to do it because of the financial aspects of it and really wouldn't take the OT first, the OG yes, but a tandem that includes Nelson and Hernandez at OGs will solidity the middle for 10 years, allowing Eli and Webb to step up into the pocket when the OTs are blocking the outside rush.

Of those OL the only one I would consider picking with the second pick in the draft is Nelson. Our needs in the OL are massive. It is the key to improving this offense in a single offseason. The defense will be better just by getting healthy but a trade down will help that too because we should get another 2 in 2018 and a first rounder next season, giving us two and setting us up to pick next year's top QB prospect via trade if necessary.

Thanks for correcting me on the Notre Dame guard. I want to blame a typo but I just screwed up. I know he's McGlinchey.

I don't disagree with you that the OL is a massive need, but that's not how you approach the draft. And it's especially not how you approach the draft when you have picks as high as we do. If you take OGs with your first two picks, you'll just be chasing another position group in a few years when that pipeline is barren because it was neglected in the draft instead. It becomes a game of roster whack-a-mole (which is what we saw far too frequently under Reese).

A dominant OL is a worthy goal, but it doesn't have to happen overnight. A competent, consistent OL is adequate for 2018 with a continued focus on it in subsequent years so that it becomes a strength over time. Applying the amount of draft capital that you're suggesting is attempting to shortcut the process, but will invariably lead to other weaknesses on the roster if you draft for need rather than BPA.

Free agency is where teams can react to roster flaws. The draft should be about proactive talent acquisition, IMO. Get the best players (or perceived best players, since there are no sure things in the draft) before you need them.
Peppers  
Pep22 : 2/16/2018 1:16 pm : link
great post on your part
....  
Jay on the Island : 2/16/2018 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13834582 VinegarPeppers said:
Quote:
I did mean McGlinchy, not McClatchy...brain fart. Yes we need 2 OL men in the first two picks. I would trade down to try to do it because of the financial aspects of it and really wouldn't take the OT first, the OG yes, but a tandem that includes Nelson and Hernandez at OGs will solidity the middle for 10 years, allowing Eli and Webb to step up into the pocket when the OTs are blocking the outside rush.


The issue here is that you are assuming Webb is the long term answer to Eli based on a leap of faith. It is a huge mistake to pass on a potential franchise QB to fill a need at guard while putting all your faith in a QB that the new coaching staff and GM have nothing to go on but college tape. If Webb isn't the answer, the chances of him being a franchise QB is slim to none, then the Giants wasted their chance of finding their franchise QB. The Browns just went 0-16 with an outstanding guard duo of Bitonio and Zeitler who played every snap last season. It is a better allocation of resources to sign Norwell, draft a QB at 2, then take either Wynn, Smith, or Hernandez in round 2.
...  
christian : 2/16/2018 1:47 pm : link
Quality tackles are expensive and don't hit the open market regularly.

Flowers has had some low, lows -- but take away the draft status for a moment. He's a league average tackle, who plays every snap. Is he a guy you re-sign for big dollars? Probably not. For the next year can he part of the solution? Of course.
He is not a league-average Tackle  
Jimmy Googs : 2/16/2018 1:51 pm : link
at all...
RE: Peppers  
Peppers : 2/16/2018 2:40 pm : link
In comment 13834614 Pep22 said:
Quote:
great post on your part


Thanks Pep.
RE: Flowers  
FStubbs : 2/16/2018 2:54 pm : link
In comment 13834280 Pep22 said:
Quote:
Look - we all want a better LT and him replaced. If that guy is not Wheeler, I cannot come up w a viable solution nor have a seen a viable solution suggested.


I think the idea is that a warm body, anybody, is better than Flowers.
Just draft all linemen  
phil in arizona : 2/16/2018 2:58 pm : link
from Wisconsin, Notre Dame, and Ohio State.
RE: RE: Flowers  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/16/2018 3:17 pm : link
In comment 13834746 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 13834280 Pep22 said:


Quote:


Look - we all want a better LT and him replaced. If that guy is not Wheeler, I cannot come up w a viable solution nor have a seen a viable solution suggested.



I think the idea is that a warm body, anybody, is better than Flowers.

That's completely inaccurate. Has he been an enormous disappointment for the #9 overall pick in the draft? Absolutely. But that seems to carry over into many fans thinking he's worse than he actually is. Or not watching enough other games besides the Giants to realize what league average really is.
The heck with  
Manny in CA : 2/16/2018 8:39 pm : link

Jerry Reese has had us mired in mediocrity too long. This is what I'm feein', just-about-now ....

Plan?  
Doomster : 2/16/2018 8:59 pm : link
Don't try to fix it all in one season.....try to get at least one good Tackle.....with the other Tackle, you park a TE next to him to help out.....

Jones is a RFA, we have to resign, even if only as a stop gap situation......

To sign two FA for the OL, is almost a must that can be managed cap-wise with some creative money magic, because there are a lot of FA needs on this team....and the draft is no guarantee of a fix either.....

This team has too many question marks to fix in one season....yes an easy schedule will mask some problems....but do we want another 2016 season followed by another 2017 season, or do we sacrifice a season to get this team back on course, by making the right decisions that take time?
RE: The heck with  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/16/2018 9:22 pm : link
In comment 13834941 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Jerry Reese has had us mired in mediocrity too long. This is what I'm feein', just-about-now ....


You're also feeling like cutting guys who aren't under contract. Maybe you're doing too much feeling.
If Gettleman is as good  
RetroJint : 2/16/2018 9:55 pm : link
as he purports to be, and let’s all agree that he’s pretty arrogant about his abilities, he should be able to fix the offensive line without having to pay for two tier-one free agents . I’ll let him have one. If he needs two, any internet jockey can accomplish the same.

This is what Reese did to fix the defense in ‘16. All he did was sign 3 of the top available defensive players. As an organization. If you have to operate in that manner-let’s Call it a striking glimpse of the obvious-you are tacitly conceding that you don’t know what the hell you are doing .
RE: Not a strong rebuild.  
short lease : 2/17/2018 12:36 am : link
In comment 13834296 VinegarPeppers said:
Quote:
IMHO, with all due respect.

If I have too, I take OG Nelson with #1. Or OT McClatchy if I can’t sign Nick Soldier in FA. Then I really want OG Will Hernandez, a total road grater with my #2. Then I slap Flowers or Pugh in at RT and Richburg or Jones at C and I think the OL is fixed.

Lots of ifs...admittedly...but any trade down to a top 10-12 first round slot should get this possibility going.


I like the aggressive attention to the OL. Not sure it will play out like that note for note but, the games are won in the trenches (we all know that) and the quicker Gettlemen fixes that side of the trench - the better.

However, there is still a LOT of talk about the next franchise QB this year.

Man .... Reece really screwed things up. (he's is gone now - we can talk about him and blame him the most). He must have been a magician in a past life ... how did he keep his job for so long (they fired a HOF coach and kept Reece) without a little "slight of hand"?
Building the OL  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 2/17/2018 6:53 am : link
I believe that we must build the OL from the inside out. LG - C - RG must be stout in order to create a pocket our QB can step up into. Solidify the interior trio first. They are also critical for the advancement/improvement of our running game. With that in mind, I am hoping we get a starting C/OG with our #2 pick and another interior OL with the #4 or #5 pick. Names like Wynn, Hernandez, Smith, Daniels, Price come to mind with that second pick. Later I would be looking at Cappa, Harrison, Parker among others.
You guys seem very knowledgeable  
joeinpa : 2/17/2018 8:10 am : link
About personnel available to upgrade this unit.

I don t have anything to add other than the idea that the Giants won write Flowers off without seeing him in other positions.

I think there is a strong possibility he is on the starting unit next season
WELL, YOU CAN'T GET RID OF EVERYONE!  
Doomster : 2/17/2018 8:35 am : link
joeinpa : 8:10 am : link : reply
About personnel available to upgrade this unit.

I don t have anything to add other than the idea that the Giants won write Flowers off without seeing him in other positions.

I think there is a strong possibility he is on the starting unit next season.


Jones, Pugh, and Richburg are not signed.....Jerry needs to be replaced......once again, Flowers gets a spot in the OL, somewhere, by default.....chances are it's his last as a Giant....
Hopefully DG and Shurmer are on the same sheet  
Simms11 : 2/17/2018 10:22 am : link
in regards to what type of lineman to draft or sign. DG is a Hog Mollie, huge lineman type of guy and Shurmer’s scheme may call for more athletic linemen. Pugh is not a Hog Mollie IMO, and neither is Richburg. Fluker is, but he’s not that athletic in an outside zone scheme IMO. And so which direction will they go in in regards to type of Oline player to bring in?
Some guys I like that shouldn't break the bank.  
RicFlair : 2/17/2018 10:53 am : link
Guard: Fusco, who played in Minny before and played well in SF this year.
Guard: Kelemete who can play guard and center.
Tackle: Fleming who I think could even play LT.
And like the other poster I like Hubbard quite a bit too.
RE: Hopefully DG and Shurmer are on the same sheet  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/17/2018 12:18 pm : link
In comment 13835070 Simms11 said:
Quote:
in regards to what type of lineman to draft or sign. DG is a Hog Mollie, huge lineman type of guy and Shurmer’s scheme may call for more athletic linemen. Pugh is not a Hog Mollie IMO, and neither is Richburg. Fluker is, but he’s not that athletic in an outside zone scheme IMO. And so which direction will they go in in regards to type of Oline player to bring in?

People seem to misunderstand Gettleman's quote as it relates to "hog mollies" - he's referring to linemen in general (on both sides of the ball) being the key to success, not that he wants his linemen to necessarily be especially big even for linemen.
DG will fix the O Line  
Rjanyg : 2/17/2018 10:40 pm : link
But he will have to be creative. I do believe 2 new starters are coming in FA. Norwell at LG and Fleming at RT are young, solid OL and should be the main targets day one. Jones is a RFA that will be tendered. Flower will get chance to fight for either RG or LT, I see the Giants possibly re-signing Fluker and starting him at RG.

The 2nd rounder might net a OT like Tyrell Crosby, giving NYG 4 OT's.

Let them all fight it out for LT, the next guy goes to RT with the others as back ups, with the following alignment:

Crosby, Norwell, Jones, Flowers, Fleming
DG will fix the O Line  
Rjanyg : 2/17/2018 10:41 pm : link
But he will have to be creative. I do believe 2 new starters are coming in FA. Norwell at LG and Fleming at RT are young, solid OL and should be the main targets day one. Jones is a RFA that will be tendered. Flower will get chance to fight for either RG or LT, I see the Giants possibly re-signing Fluker and starting him at RG.

The 2nd rounder might net a OT like Tyrell Crosby, giving NYG 4 OT's.

Let them all fight it out for LT, the next guy goes to RT with the others as back ups, with the following alignment:

Crosby, Norwell, Jones, Flowers, Fleming
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