LT: battle of Flowers/Wheeler (Unfortunately, I just cannot envision doing better given how FA and the draft project)
LG: Norwell
C: Brett Jones, backed up by a guy I think will be a UDFA Brian Allen from Michigan State (Shurmur was a C at MSU
RG: Reasonably cheap FA = Joe Berger (from Minny; he's 35 but is a versatile interior lineman). Then best OG available at pick 34 (Isiah Wynn, Will Hernandez, Braden Smith etc.)
RT: Alex Kappa (Rd 5), backed up by Bisnowaty or maybe Flowers is swung here although I don't see it
Summary: I would love to replace Flowers but I don't see it happening. I think dedicating $13mm a year to a rising 26 year old is the biggest move NYG will make. I like Brett Jones a lot and Brian Allen is similar as a back-up C (not physically gifted but a bulldog in his approach). At RG, Berger is a bridge to the RD 2 draft pick and then becomes a quality backup for 3 interior OL positions. RT was such a problem with Bobby Hart barely knowing who to block let alone having the talent to do so. Kappa is a 6'7" small college kid who is tough as nails, seems to react well to coaching and does not have a strength deficit.
Is this a complete solution? No. But with a likely QB pick at 2 and other holes to fill, I think a plan like this plus Shurmur's expertise, these are several very good first steps.
Side note: as developmental players on our current roster, I do like Ethan Cooper and Jessaman Dunker.
If we can't at least get an upgrade to your plan, we're looking at 4-5 wins max.
My question: Can Eli thrive behind your revised front wall?
Who will be the LT then? That is the million dollar question.
For the interior, I do really like the idea of Norwell/Jones and a high end OG picked in Rd 2. (Wynn/Hernandez/Smith are awfully impressive).
I do think RT, relatively speaking, is an easy problem to solve. I am not saying its easy to find an all pro, but its so often the case that a good college LT doesn't quite have the feet to play LT in the pros so he makes an effective shift to RT (many guys in this draft fit this profile).
Price or Daniels or a top OG (i.e. Wynn/Hernandez/Smith).
Players selected that high should turn into good players. The system is designed to pay good players a progressive amount of money, so that good players on their second contract make more than the previous class of players.
With a straight face are either of those guys 7-9M guys?
Sincerely,
Eli
Players selected that high should turn into good players. The system is designed to pay good players a progressive amount of money, so that good players on their second contract make more than the previous class of players.
With a straight face are either of those guys 7-9M guys?
You left out Flowers as a reason for their deficit. Pick number 9 is a bust.
Sincerely,
Eli
I think its unlikely they do better than additions via:
1) priciest OG in NFL history via FA
2) premium pick (34th selection)
3) modest FA aquisition
4) mid rounder
there are no Tony Boselli's readily available
Otherwise, I simply don't know what we are doing here...
If I have too, I take OG Nelson with #1. Or OT McClatchy if I can’t sign Nick Soldier in FA. Then I really want OG Will Hernandez, a total road grater with my #2. Then I slap Flowers or Pugh in at RT and Richburg or Jones at C and I think the OL is fixed.
Lots of ifs...admittedly...but any trade down to a top 10-12 first round slot should get this possibility going.
As much as people won't like to hear it, Flowers is likely playing at either T spot (#2)
Sign a vet C to short term (possibly Richburg on a prove it) to compete with Jones (that's #3 & #4)
Draft two guys, at least 1 of them high enough to start day 1 on the interior (#5 & #6)
Jerry is under contract but nothing should be handed to him (#7)
Wheeler likely beats out Biz for (#8) since he's more talented
Open camp competition for (#9)
That's basically the minimum I expect. If they trade down in the draft Nelson comes into play. Bringing someone like Fluker back on a 1 year deal is also within the realm of possibility. In fact, it's likely they sign multiple veteran lineman even though it's probably only possible to get 1 pencil in starter.
Sign: Chris Hubbard OT, C John Sullivan, G/C Zach Fulton
Re-sign: Fluker
Draft: 2nd round Braden Smith or Isaiah Wynn, 4th round OT Alex Cappa
LT Wheeler/Cappa
LG Fulton
C Sullivan/Jones
RG Smith or Wynn/Fluker
RT Flowers/ Cappa
I fully expect the Giants to sign Norwell but I went with the much less expensive but solid Zach Fulton.
Sign: Chris Hubbard OT, C John Sullivan, G/C Zach Fulton
Re-sign: Fluker
Draft: 2nd round Braden Smith or Isaiah Wynn, 4th round OT Alex Cappa
LT Wheeler/Cappa
LG Fulton
C Sullivan/Jones
RG Smith or Wynn/Fluker
RT Flowers/ Cappa
I fully expect the Giants to sign Norwell but I went with the much less expensive but solid Zach Fulton.
Kappa is very likable but I'd be shocked if he ended up being a pro LT. Seems more like a RT in terms of movement skills.
Kappa is very likable but I'd be shocked if he ended up being a pro LT. Seems more like a RT in terms of movement skills.
It's Cappa but you are probably right. In time he could develop into a solid LT but is more likely suited to RT. When Sy said that he felt Smith could play LT that made him very intriguing. I hope the Giants draft him and let him and Wheeler, and possibly a cheap veteran option battle for the LT job. If Wheeler is looking good early shift Smith back to G.
Chris Hubbard is a very likely option for Gettleman at RT.
LG Norwell
C Draftee/Jones
RG Fluker
RT Flowers
LG Norwell
C Draftee/Jones
RG Fluker
RT Flowers
That's close but I would prefer either Wynn or Smith in the 2nd round to start at RG plus a 3rd-4th round developmental LT. A cheap option at center for 1 year is John Sullivan. He is 33 but he played surprisingly well for the Rams last season. Let him compete with Jones in camp and if Jones doesn't look like he is the long term answer at center then at least Sullivan gave them another year before they have to find their next center.
And so my line would look like this:
Solder - Price - Jones - Fluker/Draft Pick - Flowers.....
If I have too, I take OG Nelson with #1. Or OT McClatchy if I can’t sign Nick Soldier in FA. Then I really want OG Will Hernandez, a total road grater with my #2. Then I slap Flowers or Pugh in at RT and Richburg or Jones at C and I think the OL is fixed.
Lots of ifs...admittedly...but any trade down to a top 10-12 first round slot should get this possibility going.
Who is McClatchy? Are you talking about McGlinchy? And if so, are you suggesting taking him at #2 overall? Because if so, that's a horrible use of resources. Gettleman would be fired on the spot for that, and you should be tarred and feathered for even putting the idea into the universe if it were to happen.
And Nelson with the #2 pick and then another OG with #34? I get it that the OL is a problem, but you don't cluster draft guards with two of the top 34 picks in the draft.
Quote:
Any plan that has Flowers. Wheeler and a 5th round draft pick as our starting tackles is not reasonable. Sorry how much more of Flowers do we need to see to confirm he either gets moved inside or cut. Wheeler is a project. You don't pencil in projects to be a starting tackle.
Chris Hubbard is a very likely option for Gettleman at RT.
I don't know anything about this guy. Can you give us a thumbnail sketch?
If I have too, I take OG Nelson with #1. Or OT McClatchy if I can’t sign Nick Soldier in FA. Then I really want OG Will Hernandez, a total road grater with my #2. Then I slap Flowers or Pugh in at RT and Richburg or Jones at C and I think the OL is fixed.
Lots of ifs...admittedly...but any trade down to a top 10-12 first round slot should get this possibility going.
That is an awful use of resources. Taking Nelson 2nd overall or significantly reaching for McGlinchey(who will likely go in the teens) over a potential QB of the future is a monumental mistake. I am 100% committed to taking a guard at 34 but using their top two picks on guards is a horrible allocation of resources.
I don't know anything about this guy. Can you give us a thumbnail sketch?
Chris Hubbard is a 26 year old former UDFA who has started at both G and RT. He started 10 games for the Steelers at RT last season and he played very well. He could be a young player on the rise and the worst case scenario is that he is a solid backup that can play RT and both G spots.
And so my line would look like this:
Solder - Price - Jones - Fluker/Draft Pick - Flowers.....
No problem. If Gettleman continues to find solid offensive lineman among former UDFA or mid to late round picks then Hubbard might be one of those finds. Another lesser heralded but improving offensive lineman is Zach Fulton from KC. Fulton is also 26 and he has started 46 games for the Chiefs mostly at guard but last year he played center for the first time and he played well for the Chiefs. He is a former 6th round pick who has very good size.
Wheeler showed he can hold his own pass blocking. He won't be rated as a top LT, but he could benefit if DG can strengthen the other positions along the line
I think Wheeler is going to come to camp much stronger and he will hopefully stay healthy. If he does those two things then I feel much better about his chances of becoming a solid LT as early as next year.
I am not saying that in itself is an accomplishment, but I do think he has an edge as we look ahead to handicapping the LT spot
Then in the second round, select one of the top center prospects.
On the right side, see if either Flowers and Wheeler can lock down Right Guard and Right Tackle.
For depth, Brett Jones and Adam Bisnowaty have some decent upside potential as center\tackle backups. Plus John Jerry is cheap guard insurance as a backup.
Then the 2019 off-season would be invested in fixing that Right Side of the O-Line if Flowers or Wheeler don't pan out.
Rinse, Repeat process in '19,if appropriate.
Hopefully Wheeler, Biz, a repositioned Flowers, Fluker?, Nor well?, the 34 and 98 can form an OL so a '19 draft can focus on other top needs at rounds 1+2.
Pep22 : 9:00 am : link : reply
Look - we all want a better LT and him replaced. If that guy is not Wheeler, I cannot come up w a viable solution nor have a seen a viable solution suggested.
draft a guy (prefer OT) & continue to develop Wheeler & Bisnowaty
That will be the upgraded OL in 2018.
Going to have to invest big in the OL this F/A....
Eli's window is closing for real now... its now or never
Pep22 : 9:00 am : link : reply
Look - we all want a better LT and him replaced. If that guy is not Wheeler, I cannot come up w a viable solution nor have a seen a viable solution suggested.
Flowers played better than most of the NFL's LT's in the 2nd half of last season... people are going to hate him no matter what but I agree that as bad as Flowers seems the next better option truly might not exist. LT's don't grow on trees and they are probably one of the very hardest positions to develop.... You gonna get rid of Flowers so that Wheeler can be the LT??? You gonna draft a guy at #2 or #34 when Flowers drafted at #9 hasn't quite panned out? Big risk isn't it? Why not go all in on the sure thing in Norwell and bring back a guy we know is very good when healthy in Pugh... that's what I would do.. target Norwell, Pugh, Jones and maybe even Fluker
draft a guy (prefer OT) & continue to develop Wheeler & Bisnowaty
That will be the upgraded OL in 2018.
Going to have to invest big in the OL this F/A....
Eli's window is closing for real now... its now or never
This is really about the OL so I'll keep this short. Eli's window has been closed for a while now. That is painfully obvious. This is all about creating a better situation for the incoming QB, the elite weapons on the outside, the run game etc.
Of those OL the only one I would consider picking with the second pick in the draft is Nelson. Our needs in the OL are massive. It is the key to improving this offense in a single offseason. The defense will be better just by getting healthy but a trade down will help that too because we should get another 2 in 2018 and a first rounder next season, giving us two and setting us up to pick next year's top QB prospect via trade if necessary.
Thanks for correcting me on the Notre Dame guard. I want to blame a typo but I just screwed up. I know he's McGlinchey.
While most coaches run multiple schemes they always tend to favor one over the other. For instance, Solari was more of a power zone guy. He likes big mauling guards/centers with athletic tackles that's part of the reason why the line looked better with Fluker and Jones.
Under Shurmur and Hunter, while both are very diverse in their schemes, they use a lot of outside zone. The talent isn't as much of the emphasis here as the coaching is. These guys will have to be smart and athletic across the board. They'll be pulling and blocking in space. If you look at the average weight of the Vikings rebuilt line you see most of the guys are around 300lbs and they are all guys who can move.
Shurmur will exploit defenses with screens. Wr/Te/Rb screens which uses his athletic lineman to his advantage. His diversity and creativity help keep defenses off balance which helps the oline.. Shurmur will run pro spread which also helps take some pressure off the lineman with quick routes and hot reads (crossing routes, flats, short slants, and comebacks). It also helps take pressure off the QB where he'll be throwing to more open WRs.
Thats what I learned by studying a little of Shurmur with the Vikings and some with Philly anyways lol.. rambled on a little bit there. So in conclusion, athleticism is going to be an important part of this OL. Especially at the pivot, he's going to need to be athletic and Richburg fits but the concussion is a bit of a concern and it may be best for him to get a fresh start elsewhere. James Daniels and Billy Price. I think we'll be very high on both. Personally, I'd love to see Norwell and Price next to each other.
Of those OL the only one I would consider picking with the second pick in the draft is Nelson. Our needs in the OL are massive. It is the key to improving this offense in a single offseason. The defense will be better just by getting healthy but a trade down will help that too because we should get another 2 in 2018 and a first rounder next season, giving us two and setting us up to pick next year's top QB prospect via trade if necessary.
Thanks for correcting me on the Notre Dame guard. I want to blame a typo but I just screwed up. I know he's McGlinchey.
I don't disagree with you that the OL is a massive need, but that's not how you approach the draft. And it's especially not how you approach the draft when you have picks as high as we do. If you take OGs with your first two picks, you'll just be chasing another position group in a few years when that pipeline is barren because it was neglected in the draft instead. It becomes a game of roster whack-a-mole (which is what we saw far too frequently under Reese).
A dominant OL is a worthy goal, but it doesn't have to happen overnight. A competent, consistent OL is adequate for 2018 with a continued focus on it in subsequent years so that it becomes a strength over time. Applying the amount of draft capital that you're suggesting is attempting to shortcut the process, but will invariably lead to other weaknesses on the roster if you draft for need rather than BPA.
Free agency is where teams can react to roster flaws. The draft should be about proactive talent acquisition, IMO. Get the best players (or perceived best players, since there are no sure things in the draft) before you need them.
The issue here is that you are assuming Webb is the long term answer to Eli based on a leap of faith. It is a huge mistake to pass on a potential franchise QB to fill a need at guard while putting all your faith in a QB that the new coaching staff and GM have nothing to go on but college tape. If Webb isn't the answer, the chances of him being a franchise QB is slim to none, then the Giants wasted their chance of finding their franchise QB. The Browns just went 0-16 with an outstanding guard duo of Bitonio and Zeitler who played every snap last season. It is a better allocation of resources to sign Norwell, draft a QB at 2, then take either Wynn, Smith, or Hernandez in round 2.
Flowers has had some low, lows -- but take away the draft status for a moment. He's a league average tackle, who plays every snap. Is he a guy you re-sign for big dollars? Probably not. For the next year can he part of the solution? Of course.
Thanks Pep.
I think the idea is that a warm body, anybody, is better than Flowers.
Quote:
Look - we all want a better LT and him replaced. If that guy is not Wheeler, I cannot come up w a viable solution nor have a seen a viable solution suggested.
I think the idea is that a warm body, anybody, is better than Flowers.
That's completely inaccurate. Has he been an enormous disappointment for the #9 overall pick in the draft? Absolutely. But that seems to carry over into many fans thinking he's worse than he actually is. Or not watching enough other games besides the Giants to realize what league average really is.
Jerry Reese has had us mired in mediocrity too long. This is what I'm feein', just-about-now ....
Jones is a RFA, we have to resign, even if only as a stop gap situation......
To sign two FA for the OL, is almost a must that can be managed cap-wise with some creative money magic, because there are a lot of FA needs on this team....and the draft is no guarantee of a fix either.....
This team has too many question marks to fix in one season....yes an easy schedule will mask some problems....but do we want another 2016 season followed by another 2017 season, or do we sacrifice a season to get this team back on course, by making the right decisions that take time?
Jerry Reese has had us mired in mediocrity too long. This is what I'm feein', just-about-now ....
You're also feeling like cutting guys who aren't under contract. Maybe you're doing too much feeling.
This is what Reese did to fix the defense in ‘16. All he did was sign 3 of the top available defensive players. As an organization. If you have to operate in that manner-let’s Call it a striking glimpse of the obvious-you are tacitly conceding that you don’t know what the hell you are doing .
If I have too, I take OG Nelson with #1. Or OT McClatchy if I can’t sign Nick Soldier in FA. Then I really want OG Will Hernandez, a total road grater with my #2. Then I slap Flowers or Pugh in at RT and Richburg or Jones at C and I think the OL is fixed.
Lots of ifs...admittedly...but any trade down to a top 10-12 first round slot should get this possibility going.
I like the aggressive attention to the OL. Not sure it will play out like that note for note but, the games are won in the trenches (we all know that) and the quicker Gettlemen fixes that side of the trench - the better.
However, there is still a LOT of talk about the next franchise QB this year.
Man .... Reece really screwed things up. (he's is gone now - we can talk about him and blame him the most). He must have been a magician in a past life ... how did he keep his job for so long (they fired a HOF coach and kept Reece) without a little "slight of hand"?
I don t have anything to add other than the idea that the Giants won write Flowers off without seeing him in other positions.
I think there is a strong possibility he is on the starting unit next season
About personnel available to upgrade this unit.
I don t have anything to add other than the idea that the Giants won write Flowers off without seeing him in other positions.
I think there is a strong possibility he is on the starting unit next season.
Jones, Pugh, and Richburg are not signed.....Jerry needs to be replaced......once again, Flowers gets a spot in the OL, somewhere, by default.....chances are it's his last as a Giant....
Guard: Kelemete who can play guard and center.
Tackle: Fleming who I think could even play LT.
And like the other poster I like Hubbard quite a bit too.
People seem to misunderstand Gettleman's quote as it relates to "hog mollies" - he's referring to linemen in general (on both sides of the ball) being the key to success, not that he wants his linemen to necessarily be especially big even for linemen.
The 2nd rounder might net a OT like Tyrell Crosby, giving NYG 4 OT's.
Let them all fight it out for LT, the next guy goes to RT with the others as back ups, with the following alignment:
Crosby, Norwell, Jones, Flowers, Fleming
The 2nd rounder might net a OT like Tyrell Crosby, giving NYG 4 OT's.
Let them all fight it out for LT, the next guy goes to RT with the others as back ups, with the following alignment:
Crosby, Norwell, Jones, Flowers, Fleming