“This goes a lot deeper in college basketball than four corrupt assistant coaches,” said a source who has been briefed on the details of the case. “When this all comes out, Hall of Fame coaches should be scared, lottery picks won’t be eligible to play and almost half of the 16 teams the NCAA showed on its initial NCAA tournament show this weekend should worry about their appearance being vacated.”
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And Cornball Roy will stroll up to accept the award and say "Gee, whillikers, this is dandy".
And Cornball Roy will stroll up to accept the award and say "Gee, whillikers, this is dandy".
That is probably because Boeheim is a cheater and Roy isn't.
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be stripped of all wins and they'll give his defeat of Kansas to Roy Williams.
And Cornball Roy will stroll up to accept the award and say "Gee, whillikers, this is dandy".
That is probably because Boeheim is a cheater and Roy isn't.
What color is the sky in your world?
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In comment 13834317 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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be stripped of all wins and they'll give his defeat of Kansas to Roy Williams.
And Cornball Roy will stroll up to accept the award and say "Gee, whillikers, this is dandy".
That is probably because Boeheim is a cheater and Roy isn't.
What color is the sky in your world?
The same as yours.
BigBlueDownTheShore : 9:49 am : link : reply
is going to be in this thing?
If he comes down with a late season "back injury" something will be up:)
not a chance, and that is not because I think there is a conspiracy, I just think Duke is above board.
As for "corruption", the NCAA is the Captain Renault of this little village "Shocked, shocked to see gambling going on in this establishment."
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Hell, it took incredible public pressure for them to sanction PSU. They only sanction the sacred cows as a last resort, and if you are an ascerbic jackass to them, they will take you down as hard as possible, hence why Boeheim still has losses off teh books while JoePa had his vacated losses restored.
That is probably because Boeheim is a cheater and Roy isn't.
Ha ha ha ha...
Yeah, having his players enrolled in no-show classes doesn’t qualify as cheating, I guess.
- Do whatever you want as long as it also includes non-athletes.
- When told there is an investigation, have a cabal of powerful, highly paid lawyers threaten the NCAA by telling them the case will be tied up for years in an expensive battle
Then, you can simply walk away and tell people there wasn't any cheating.
-Duke historically has gotten good, occasionally great, classes, but generally more heavily weighted toward great college players who didn't really have NBA star potential. They used the 2010 championship team as the exemplar of this - an upperclassman dominated lineup with Jon Scheyer, Brian Zoubek, Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler. Only Singler has had any NBA success.
-In 2011, Jeff Capel is fired as Oklahoma head coach after an investigation showed Oklahoma was paying players.
-Immediately following his dismissal, Duke hires Capel, who becomes Krzyzewski's lead assistant and main recruiter.
-by 2013, Duke's recruiting has changed. They are now signing the one-and-done future lottery picks they previously had largely avoided, aside from Kyrie Irving. Jabari Parker, Jahlil Okafor, Justise Winslow, Tyus Jones, Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Harry Giles (although that didn't work out), Marvin Bagley, Wendell Carter, Gary Trent.
-They follow this up by the unprecedented signing of the top three recruits in the 2019 class, even though all three play the same position.
-So there is a pretty drastic change that happens after Jeff Capel, fired in disgrace from Oklahoma, returns to Durham to be Krzyzewski's top recruiter.
-Finally, let's not forget that there has been shadiness in the past with Duke - Corey Maggette, Lance Thomas' $100K of jewelry, Chris Duhon's mother getting a phony-baloney job from a Duke booster.
Hell, it took incredible public pressure for them to sanction PSU. They only sanction the sacred cows as a last resort, and if you are an ascerbic jackass to them, they will take you down as hard as possible, hence why Boeheim still has losses off teh books while JoePa had his vacated losses restored.
I take issue with the "to provide eligibility for athletes" aspect of your post. There was no evidence that the Men's Basketball team was involved in designing those programs or steering them toward them. In fact, on the contrary, there was evidence that the Head Basketball Coach raised serious alarm bells about the fact that so many of his student-athletes were in AFAM. He instructed Halladay to put an end to it. That story has been corroborated by both Williams and Hallady and I believe one other witness in the Wainstein report.
Apples and oranges. This all stems from the FBI investigations of the shoe companies, which dominate basketball. They aren't nearly as big factors in college football, though.
If it hadn't been for the FBI, the NCAA would have simply continued to shut their eyes to all this.
- Do whatever you want as long as it also includes non-athletes.
- When told there is an investigation, have a cabal of powerful, highly paid lawyers threaten the NCAA by telling them the case will be tied up for years in an expensive battle
Then, you can simply walk away and tell people there wasn't any cheating.
You forgot one, Fats - have your governor “investigate” and issue a report blaming one professor for years long violations.
-Duke historically has gotten good, occasionally great, classes, but generally more heavily weighted toward great college players who didn't really have NBA star potential. They used the 2010 championship team as the exemplar of this - an upperclassman dominated lineup with Jon Scheyer, Brian Zoubek, Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler. Only Singler has had any NBA success.
-In 2011, Jeff Capel is fired as Oklahoma head coach after an investigation showed Oklahoma was paying players.
-Immediately following his dismissal, Duke hires Capel, who becomes Krzyzewski's lead assistant and main recruiter.
-by 2013, Duke's recruiting has changed. They are now signing the one-and-done future lottery picks they previously had largely avoided, aside from Kyrie Irving. Jabari Parker, Jahlil Okafor, Justise Winslow, Tyus Jones, Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Harry Giles (although that didn't work out), Marvin Bagley, Wendell Carter, Gary Trent.
-They follow this up by the unprecedented signing of the top three recruits in the 2019 class, even though all three play the same position.
-So there is a pretty drastic change that happens after Jeff Capel, fired in disgrace from Oklahoma, returns to Durham to be Krzyzewski's top recruiter.
-Finally, let's not forget that there has been shadiness in the past with Duke - Corey Maggette, Lance Thomas' $100K of jewelry, Chris Duhon's mother getting a phony-baloney job from a Duke booster.
As you can tell from all my posts, I agree that this is certainly a valid and strong theory. My only hesitation is that when you get the one and dones who are definitely going pro, Duke and Kentucky (as compared to the Arizona's Louisville etc who are implicated in scandal) can provide the exposure that might be more valuable than the money. On the other hand, all the points you make are valid and Coach K was not exactly clean before this either. That is why I am on the edge of my seat.
- Do whatever you want as long as it also includes non-athletes.
- When told there is an investigation, have a cabal of powerful, highly paid lawyers threaten the NCAA by telling them the case will be tied up for years in an expensive battle
Then, you can simply walk away and tell people there wasn't any cheating.
Also, claim "This is an academic scandal! Has nothing to do with athletics!" despite the fact that virtually the entire 2005 national championship roster were AFAM majors and relied heavily on their fake classes to stay eligible.
Was that before or after Williams denied having any knowledge of such classes?
In 2014 - this was Williams take:
In a 35-minute, on-camera interview Saturday that was attended by 11 former UNC basketball players as a show of support, Williams said the experiences McCants shared did not match what he knows about his players' academic efforts and records and the basketball program he oversees.
"Every one of those players that are sitting over there and every player I've had make me feel like they did their work, and we emphasize that and we push them towards that all the time," Williams said.
Several former players who attended the interview but did not wish to speak on camera echoed Williams' points and vehemently disagreed with McCants' allegations and descriptions of being an athlete at UNC.
The Raleigh (N.C.) News & Observer reported Saturday evening that McCants was not the only member of the 2005 team who relied on the bogus classes. The newspaper said that data it had obtained show that "five members of that team, including at least four key players, accounted for a combined 39 enrollments in classes that have been identified as confirmed or suspected lecture classes that never met." No player earned less than a B in any of the enrollments, according to the report.
In his ESPN interview, Williams did not directly answer a question about McCants' allegation that he believed Williams knew "100 percent" about the sham or paper-class system at UNC. Those classes, in the African-American studies program and popular with athletes, did not require students to attend class but did require one term paper to be submitted by semester's end.
"First of all, how does anybody know what somebody else believes, but I know what I believe," Williams said, before discussing his understanding of what the so-called paper classes were. "I thought that meant that a class was on paper but it didn't really exist, and then come to find out people are using that terminology 'paper classes' to signify independent study courses that you do papers. ... I've been told by people that some of those are really, really good. It shows a lot of discipline because you're self-directed. If my players took independent study courses that were offered by this university for a reason that the university thought they were valuable, my players, if they took those courses, did the work, and I'm proud of that part of it."
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get caught. That's what I am waiting for.
Apples and oranges. This all stems from the FBI investigations of the shoe companies, which dominate basketball. They aren't nearly as big factors in college football, though.
If it hadn't been for the FBI, the NCAA would have simply continued to shut their eyes to all this.
Apparently in the initial FBI report, there were links to football teams as well, as every Football Player that goes onto the NFL, also has a shoe contract for the cleats they wear on the field.
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In fact, on the contrary, there was evidence that the Head Basketball Coach raised serious alarm bells about the fact that so many of his student-athletes were in AFAM. He instructed Halladay to put an end to it. That story has been corroborated by both Williams and Hallady and I believe one other witness in the Wainstein report.
Was that before or after Williams denied having any knowledge of such classes?
In 2014 - this was Williams take:
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North Carolina basketball coach Roy Williams told ESPN's Jay Bilas that he was in "shock" and "disbelief" when he learned former guard Rashad McCants had told "Outside the Lines" that tutors wrote his term papers, he rarely went to class for about half his time at UNC and he remained able to play largely because he took bogus classes designed to keep athletes academically eligible.
In a 35-minute, on-camera interview Saturday that was attended by 11 former UNC basketball players as a show of support, Williams said the experiences McCants shared did not match what he knows about his players' academic efforts and records and the basketball program he oversees.
"Every one of those players that are sitting over there and every player I've had make me feel like they did their work, and we emphasize that and we push them towards that all the time," Williams said.
Several former players who attended the interview but did not wish to speak on camera echoed Williams' points and vehemently disagreed with McCants' allegations and descriptions of being an athlete at UNC.
The Raleigh (N.C.) News & Observer reported Saturday evening that McCants was not the only member of the 2005 team who relied on the bogus classes. The newspaper said that data it had obtained show that "five members of that team, including at least four key players, accounted for a combined 39 enrollments in classes that have been identified as confirmed or suspected lecture classes that never met." No player earned less than a B in any of the enrollments, according to the report.
In his ESPN interview, Williams did not directly answer a question about McCants' allegation that he believed Williams knew "100 percent" about the sham or paper-class system at UNC. Those classes, in the African-American studies program and popular with athletes, did not require students to attend class but did require one term paper to be submitted by semester's end.
"First of all, how does anybody know what somebody else believes, but I know what I believe," Williams said, before discussing his understanding of what the so-called paper classes were. "I thought that meant that a class was on paper but it didn't really exist, and then come to find out people are using that terminology 'paper classes' to signify independent study courses that you do papers. ... I've been told by people that some of those are really, really good. It shows a lot of discipline because you're self-directed. If my players took independent study courses that were offered by this university for a reason that the university thought they were valuable, my players, if they took those courses, did the work, and I'm proud of that part of it."
You are intentionally missing two distinct points. Just because the students were bunched in AFAM does mean that Roy knew or suspected that the program was fraudulent. In fact, what he said was that he was afraid that with so many students being in one major they were not opened to the whole college experience and that was what he wanted changed. The important point, of course, was not that he knew there was something wrong with the classes, but if he was steering for eligibility than why bring this up when reviewing transcripts with his team. It makes no sense if they were all in on it.
I get animated about this because my school does things above board and this stuff puts us at a major competitive disadvantage. Sure, anything is possible, but I would fall out of my chair if Tony Bennett was shown to be paying players. This is a guy who has twice kicked his best player off the team on his own, without being pushed into it by the school administration or because the NCAA was moving in that direction. In the case of Austin Nichols, that decision drastically altered the course of our season last year and probably greatly reduced our chances at a championship this year. And if we're offering players money, we sure suck at it - Kyle Guy was our first McDonald's AA since Sylvan Landesberg almost a decade prior, and even he was merely in the 40s in the recruiting rankings. I think Ralph Sampson is the only top ten recruit we've ever signed.
Why the two orders?
It's pretty sad the programs and "stories" sold to kids and their families today. It really does a lot of kids a big disservice.
We know rules are circumvented, the rules enforcers turn a blind eye on the big names, and everybody goes along to get along.
And the silent rule is :
HC: Don't tell me what you do, then I'm insulated. So if things go down, its all on you. If you even imply me you'll never get a job in this game anywhere, even as a coach in a recreation league in East Underwear New Mexico. Got it!?
Assistant: Got it!
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Williams ordered Halladay to not let players take the classes. But he supposedly knew nothing about the classes........
Why the two orders?
Months in Durham NC without paying them. As Greg says above they've also found instances of jewelry and other payoffs over the years. And they are getting more and more brazen with it every year - next year being their worst yet.
The hilarious thing is K had better teams back when he committed to bringing in great shooters that would stick around for 4 years - and in his hey-day he was also a great fundamentals coach that got them to collectively play at peak potential. But I guess he's gotten too old to do that anymore. His teams suffer for it.
And with UNC, with the scandals they haven't been able or willing to risk get caught going after the top recruits - so Roy has done the opposite... he's brought in 3-4 year players that are great college players / low ceiling NBA guys ... and he's been to two finals in a row for it and looks like he has another 3 seed or so locked up this year despite what is a rebuilding year.
Finally I don't give a shit about fake classes - just don't and that's not only because it's UNC. The sooner we stop pretending this isn't a multi billion business the better off everyone will be. Coaches now get $7 million a year deals and can get out of contracts and go coach somewhere else without missing a game .... but we are supposed to be outraged if players get $100k, don't go to class or take fake easy classes? It's ridiculous they still have to sit a year if they transfer after their coach leaves.
For a Big Business that allows the one and dones (they don't even stay for spring exams) -- yeah I'm not going to give a shit if other players don't go to classes either.
Ps it's not just Syracuse though for those with the persecution complex - they just fucked Notre Dame football too.
And Williamson, if there is a poster child of a player who would go to a highest bidder, he would be it.
If they had signed a Fab Five, consisting of the top ranked player at each position, it still wouldn't look as bad.
The funny thing is that, their roster full of one-and-done's probably isn't going to get them anywhere.
As for Boeheim , I’m sure he will be included somewhere. Geez didn’t Bland start his career at SU? Guilty! I was in JB’s office once when coach walked in. He noticed a pile of Isotoners that somebody had left to help the disadvantaged get through another cruel central New Tork winter . He saw them, gasped, then screamed, “Get these god-damn things outta here!” If any of his players took a pair of those gloves, it would have constituted an NCAA infraction. Had five done so, the media would have reported “five major infractions” against the “dirty” NCAA coach.
Then there is the pile of human excrement known as Roy Williams. On-Line Roy, No Show Roy. No problem. The only thing I’ll say is I hope the law-enforcement agencies mete out punishment in a fair manner, unlike the NCAA, which is the most corrupt governing body since Tammany Hall.
I feel pretty confident that UVA-- at least under Tony Bennett-- is clean in the same way that I feel confident that neither Jeter nor Rivera used PEDs.
Then again, there is so much shady business endemic to college athletics, just as PEDs were endemic to baseball, that if it came out that Tony let something slide, or that Jeter or Rivera used PEDs, I don't want to be a Pollyanna, either.
Anything that doesnt have Duke implicated in this - there is simply no way they havent paid many of these one-and-dones, no one is playing for free for K over $100K somewhere else - loses all credibility. Maybe UNC is involved too, we'll see... but Duke and Kansas gotta be part of scope here.