grades as excellent, FB WELL below average. People keep citing Eiland.. but... Eiland was with him for the 6.66 second half era so kind of a dumb argument.
Hes worked with Eilland. He was coming off Tommy John so maybe he did tire down the stretch. I would have preferred we went with our in house options first but I guess depth and stuff...
I would have a completely different approach if I was in charge
as most of us probably would. But looking at the way the Mets operate, they probably didnt have a bad offseason. A lot of this is probably due to the fact that the MLB market came to them, but regardless, they look like a team that's improved on paper.
Whether or not they can contend will depend on the health of the pitching staff and Cespedes.
in the league down the stretch last year. Surprised they gave up a 2 year deal.
On the bright side, he started the year lights out and his stuff was actually good, so it wasn't just good luck. Seems like a guy who might be better suited as a swing man whose work load should be kept down.
Hes worked with Eilland. He was coming off Tommy John so maybe he did tire down the stretch. I would have preferred we went with our in house options first but I guess depth and stuff...
Again the Eiland stuff seems like a strange argument (not taking a shot at you) just.. he was AWFUL for 15 starts second half, Eiland was there. If anything the argument could be made "Eiland couldn't fix him so that's a concern". A better argument/hope would be fatigue.
He hit a rough patch from July 5th to Sept 5th, where he had a 8+ ERA over those two months.
Although he was able to bounce back from that and won 4 straight games in Sept where he pitched 22.1 innings, gave up only 16 hits and only allowed 5 ERs.
So he did have a mini self correction from an awful second half to close out the year.
13 is stretching it bigtime and also unlikely. That being said, the Mets need to keep the innings down on these arms and the trend in modern baseball and the math says to use the pen earlier and earlier.
If you think that the starters are Lagares, Cespedes, Bruce, AGonz, Cabrera, Rosario, Frazier, TDA. Then your bench is Nimmo, Reyes, Plawecki, Flores, Smith. That's 13 guys right there and you can only have 12 pitchers then. Flores would have to look like a real OF this spring to even consider something like that.
would know more than me but someone indicated to me the Mets actually prefered Nunez to Frazier but Nunez had some health red flags and the Mets weren't going there again.
would know more than me but someone indicated to me the Mets actually prefered Nunez to Frazier but Nunez had some health red flags and the Mets weren't going there again.
I like Nunez the hitter much better than Frazier - but I think it's important to bring some defense here and Frazier does that well.
Frazier is a little too far in the mold of the hitter that I wish the Mets would get away from and Nunez is the kind I wish they'd gravitate more towards - but there hasn't been enough emphasis placed on defense recently and that's important.
So, I'm okay with Frazier - especially at the price/term. Not a big commit at all and he should be a good clubhouse guy.
but this would be a move that seems more fitting of what the Mets should be doing.
2 years for Vargas? I'd rather roll the dice with Montero, Lugo, Gsellman, and Wheeler for the 5th rotation spot/long man especially with Vargas' lefty splits.
Quote:
Jeff Passan
Verified account @JeffPassan
17h17 hours ago
There were 17 teams at Tim Lincecums workout today, and most had him at 91-93 mph with more strikes than expected. A number of teams are hoping Lincecum is willing to consider a multi-inning or potentially late-game relief role where his fastball-changeup combination can thrive.
FWIW Wheeler is pissed about the Vargas signing. Maybe it motivates him to reach the potential of the top 10 prospect he was. If it does, it's worth the 8M IMO.
In a perfect world, we are getting less than 25 starts out of this guy. I am not going to make too much about it. He is a vet and just another arm to slot into the 3-5 spots if he is on his game. If not, he is a backup up and a 6th starter.
Now if they can cap the offseason off with another Loogy, I think this team is ready to compete. Health is going to be the determining factor as always, but I feel as though they are equipped at most spots to handle a decent amount of injury luck.
VERY relaxed spring. No rushing. No hustling. Nice steady pace. Tons of breaks. A TON of teaching going on. Smaller groups roatating. Players stay together.
Thor looks completely different body wise, which we were told he would. A lot more athletic in PFPs. Matz looks fuller, more mature. Wheeler looks entitled, like he just expects to be great. When the three of them are together you can just look at Thor and know hes a beast. Matz is intense. Zack is just... different.
TDA a lot of time at 2b. Not a position change like I joked last night. Just keeping him fresh. Theme for everyone early in Camp.
Conforto doing a lot of work, looking good.
Bruce is like the proud dad leading the group. Really taking a completely different approach to his leadership role, dramatic difference.
Nimmo always looked a little intimidated. Ive always said he is too soft to be great. Too content. Now seems relaxed - expect a high floor from him at this point. Legates has looked awesome a few times in past springs, so Im hesitant to tout him.
Don smith might have secretly won a $500mm lotto jackpot this offseason. I have never seen someone smile and laugh so much during practices. Ever. And that includes Jose in his youth. Jose and Wrights smiles are more genuine, but man the kid is happy this spring.
Speaking of smiles. Man is it relaxed here. Lots of vets. Everyone going about there biz. Something to prove. Quiet confidence. Everywhere.
Plawecki - leading candidate for gold glove, silver slugger and MVP at this point. Possible Cy Young candidate too. In all seriousness, Mets felt comfy enough this offseason to never seriously consider Lucroy, an unthinkable thing any other offseason.
CEs is a beast. Slimmed down beast. And clearly prefers to be in the background - which he seems to have found a bit better this year.
Speaking of background. Look in the corner of the players lot. Who brought a little boat with them to spring training
JP still wanders around aimlessly like hes actually important. Omar keeps popping up in corners talking to people. And sandy is very clearly in charge. While Fred just sits in his golf cart with his body guard and enjoys the best time of the baseball year. Unfortunately the shithead son arrives eventually...
Not sure which lefty it was, I know Nimmo was in the group hitting with Dom. But someone was hitting absolute BOMBS to RF on the main field late in yesterdays practice.
VERY relaxed spring. No rushing. No hustling. Nice steady pace. Tons of breaks. A TON of teaching going on. Smaller groups roatating. Players stay together.
Thor looks completely different body wise, which we were told he would. A lot more athletic in PFPs. Matz looks fuller, more mature. Wheeler looks entitled, like he just expects to be great. When the three of them are together you can just look at Thor and know hes a beast. Matz is intense. Zack is just... different.
TDA a lot of time at 2b. Not a position change like I joked last night. Just keeping him fresh. Theme for everyone early in Camp.
Conforto doing a lot of work, looking good.
Bruce is like the proud dad leading the group. Really taking a completely different approach to his leadership role, dramatic difference.
Nimmo always looked a little intimidated. Ive always said he is too soft to be great. Too content. Now seems relaxed - expect a high floor from him at this point. Legates has looked awesome a few times in past springs, so Im hesitant to tout him.
Don smith might have secretly won a $500mm lotto jackpot this offseason. I have never seen someone smile and laugh so much during practices. Ever. And that includes Jose in his youth. Jose and Wrights smiles are more genuine, but man the kid is happy this spring.
Speaking of smiles. Man is it relaxed here. Lots of vets. Everyone going about there biz. Something to prove. Quiet confidence. Everywhere.
Plawecki - leading candidate for gold glove, silver slugger and MVP at this point. Possible Cy Young candidate too. In all seriousness, Mets felt comfy enough this offseason to never seriously consider Lucroy, an unthinkable thing any other offseason.
CEs is a beast. Slimmed down beast. And clearly prefers to be in the background - which he seems to have found a bit better this year.
Speaking of background. Look in the corner of the players lot. Who brought a little boat with them to spring training
JP still wanders around aimlessly like hes actually important. Omar keeps popping up in corners talking to people. And sandy is very clearly in charge. While Fred just sits in his golf cart with his body guard and enjoys the best time of the baseball year. Unfortunately the shithead son arrives eventually...
Not sure which lefty it was, I know Nimmo was in the group hitting with Dom. But someone was hitting absolute BOMBS to RF on the main field late in yesterdays practice.
Thanks for these tidbits, Sheck.
Nice to get a bit of a temp check early on. Interesting stuff.
Glad to see the Conforto looks alright. Hopefully it'll go well when he starts swinging. I actually like our OF depth. Am a fan of both Lagares and Nimmo.
I am absolutely shocked that with the money and years equal they wouldn't have rathered bring back the guy who was one of the top setup man in baseball for them the past 2 years...
Re: Vargas, he is what is. He'll give them innings. I haven't looked at the calendar but I'm sure there will be a way to get everyone a turn in the rotation if they are pitching well enough to deserve it. I like that the pitching coach has familiarity with him. Like that he's a lefty. If he can do what Colon did and just give them a couple solid starts for every clunker that will help.
Also great post Shecky.
RE: the confusing thing to me about Vargas is they preferred him to Reed
I am absolutely shocked that with the money and years equal they wouldn't have rathered bring back the guy who was one of the top setup man in baseball for them the past 2 years...
Re: Vargas, he is what is. He'll give them innings. I haven't looked at the calendar but I'm sure there will be a way to get everyone a turn in the rotation if they are pitching well enough to deserve it. I like that the pitching coach has familiarity with him. Like that he's a lefty. If he can do what Colon did and just give them a couple solid starts for every clunker that will help.
Also great post Shecky.
Reed wasn't going to stay here with Familia and Ramos on the roster. He wants to close and has a better chance in Minnesota setting up for Rodney whos unstable
to Wheeler, Lugo, Gsellman, Montero - all in the pen?
Gsellman to Vegas, where he belongs. His arrogance bothers me. He acts like hes somehow owed a spot. Didnt pitch well until they humbled him last season
tons of athletes have confidence in themselves even if their results don't necessarily match up with their opinions. Lots of team officials have cited Wheeler's work ethic and positive attitude and he's been through a lot in his career with injuries and such. If I were him I'd want to start too, so what's the BFD?
but his stuff projects to be better than Vargas' stuff.
So if somehow Wheeler can finally stay healthy (like Matz and Harvey) it's better for the Mets than if Vargas is the 5th starter.
Quote:
...Wheeler boasts a plus fastball that sits comfortably in the mid-90s and will scrape 98 on occasion. Due to his smooth, fluid arm action and explosive delivery, the pitch tends to jump on opposing hittersespecially right-handed hitters. Wheeler also utilizes a two-seam fastball that comes in a few ticks softer than the four-seam and features late arm-side run.....Wheeler's best offeringother than the fastball that isis a curveball in the upper-70s thats an absolute hammer with a big shape, tight spin and downer bite...Rosenbaum's not alone here. Everyone geeks out about Wheeler's curveball, including Parks. He agreed that Wheeler's Uncle Charlie is a plus offering, and that it has the potential to be a "true [seven] pitch." That's out of eight, meaning it's a darn good one.
that was before Wheeler made his MLB debut, what happened?
He blew out his elbow in ST 2015 & had complications in rehab in 16/17
Yeah, something about Wheeler has always rubbed me the wrong way.
I like that he's confidence but he has this aura of entitlement like he's some big shot when in reality, he's proven virtually nothing at the MLB level.
Harvey has been a dick at times, too - but Matt Harvey has been an elite SP in this league before. Wheeler has not.
tons of athletes have confidence in themselves even if their results don't necessarily match up with their opinions. Lots of team officials have cited Wheeler's work ethic and positive attitude and he's been through a lot in his career with injuries and such. If I were him I'd want to start too, so what's the BFD?
He's a dummy with a huge ego. He openly admits he doesn't believe in advanced numbers.
Yeah, something about Wheeler has always rubbed me the wrong way.
I like that he's confidence but he has this aura of entitlement like he's some big shot when in reality, he's proven virtually nothing at the MLB level.
Harvey has been a dick at times, too - but Matt Harvey has been an elite SP in this league before. Wheeler has not.
I always liked Wheeler, he has ability and seems like a good guy, just not the alpha personality like Thor/Harvery. His 1 full year (2014) was solid and I remember things starting to click for him in that second half. Just no idea what he is now after 3 seasons of injuries.
"I don't want to piss anybody off but, honestly, I don't like it," he said. "Teams are starting to be more analytical these days. So I hate to say that numbers don't lie because I don't like analytics all that much but I'm not the boss here. I really can't control it. They know where I stand on that."
his rep is not that all. He's considered quite cocky with an inflated self worth. Warthen and Wheeler did not see eye to eye and Wheeler wasn't even particularly close with the other pitchers. Maybe that will change but just because Harvey has the "rep" Wheeler is not considered a plus guy himself.
weird how last year the word came out they might see Wheeler as a reliever and suddenly he brought up how he didn't think he could do it because of arm soreness, strange timing, very strange.
his rep is not that all. He's considered quite cocky with an inflated self worth. Warthen and Wheeler did not see eye to eye and Wheeler wasn't even particularly close with the other pitchers. Maybe that will change but just because Harvey has the "rep" Wheeler is not considered a plus guy himself.
That could be I certainly don't have an inside info. Just the stories reporters have written about him through the years and he didn't seem like a bad guy. I remember he specifically talked about wanting to stay a Met (prior to the WS run when it wasn't the most popular thing to say) and help this team win when his name was dangled for Gomez and prior to the Cespedes trade. Just saying he never seemed like a guy who was a public problem.
weird how last year the word came out they might see Wheeler as a reliever and suddenly he brought up how he didn't think he could do it because of arm soreness, strange timing, very strange.
LOL. Based on all evidence we've seen, his arm doesn't seem up to being able to handle 200 IP as a stater! Being an RP might be the only for him to have an MLB career.
don't even know that Matt Harvey is a particularly "bad" guy. The bartenders at a local bar all talked him up as down to earth and nice but his public persona is what it is so that's what we all accept. I'm not defending Matt Harvey either. Just saying if you keep it away from the writers it's not going to be reported "meh Wheeler is cocky and thinks he's better than he is". I mean even Jose Reyes crap.. he had nude pictures leaked online of him and a mistress, hitting his wife was above and beyond but part of it is kissing the writers asses. Piss off the wrong writer and your dirty laundry is out for everyone to see. Even King David Wright passed out drunk at an SJU party years ago and the writers knew about it. Nobody cared.
Absolutely has the ideal personality you want in your ace. Period. End of story. Dont have to like it, and opposing team usually wont.
Maine on the other hand...
Matt Harvey legit believes in himself. Some of these guys talk a big game. It doesn't mean Harvey will ever bounce back (I don't believe he will) but his body let him down. Mentally he could have been a true great.
I read the quotes but I'm trying not to buy into them
where Matt Harvey says he feels there is no reason he can't be as good as he ever was.
Its not just him. Boras, Eilland, and Callaway are all saying similar stuff. To be fair we were told he wouldnt be 100% healthy last year until June and he had no offseason to prepare like he normally would. I also feel like visually he would start out hitting 95 in the first inning but would be totally gassed by the 5th throwing 92/91. I think it was a conditioning issue as well. Im cautiously optimistic but obviously not expecting anything yet. Alex Cobb had TOS and Tommy John and made it back. Its possible.
That's where I just personally have to put on the brakes
and it's not to say the reports aren't true. It's just me.
if you remember last year I thought no way can the Mets have injuries anything like 2016, but yet 2017 was probably worse - I predicted 95 wins for the Mets.
So while I love to hear it, Harvey is possibly the first home grown Mets pitcher since Gooden I thought had electric stuff. a true potential ace/perennial cy young candidate.
DeGrom doesn't maybe get the credit he deserves because he does too, but Harvey came first and made a much younger debut, was a CT native, he had people dreaming.
Now, I'm less than cautiously optimistic, I'm not quite pessimistic, but I expect nothing.
where Matt Harvey says he feels there is no reason he can't be as good as he ever was.
Its not just him. Boras, Eilland, and Callaway are all saying similar stuff. To be fair we were told he wouldnt be 100% healthy last year until June and he had no offseason to prepare like he normally would. I also feel like visually he would start out hitting 95 in the first inning but would be totally gassed by the 5th throwing 92/91. I think it was a conditioning issue as well. Im cautiously optimistic but obviously not expecting anything yet. Alex Cobb had TOS and Tommy John and made it back. Its possible.
Alex Cobb has not been the same pitcher. 2013-2014 3.29 FIP, after his 2 injuries (last 34 starts) 4.32 FIP. We'd all take that from Harvey but that's not exactly "making it back" in terms of what we would want from Matt Harvey
I meant make it back to acceptable baseball standards
with ample quote from Harvey, Callaway and Eiland. Basically that Callaway and Eiland convinced Sandy not to trade Harvey because they thought they could work with him. They watched his tape last year and liked how the ball was coming out late in the season.
Harvey also said last year his right shoulder was weaker than his left, and that now it is much stronger. Its not uncommon to read this stuff in ST, and I seriously doubt we will see the Harvey of old, but if they can get something from him, it could be an interesting year. Matt Harvey A Lot Left in the Tank - ( New Window )
Of fWAR from 4 vets this offseason (2017). Thats before you even get into the returns of Thor, Familia, ect. I have a hard time envisioning this team being less than a 80 win team.
RE: Strength in numbers. That's a good way to play the starting pitcher
game. I'm warming up to the Vargas signing since this, as was said, is his second year after TJ.
I worry he clogs a spot and blocks a more upside play but hes been basically a league average pitcher since 2010. Likening him to Colon is fair I think. He likely does give us some innings. Its not the worst move. I was much more excited about some of other moves but its all good.
FWIW, I love Matt Harvey - I think you guys know that. I've been one of his biggest fans. So, when I mentioned him earlier, it wasn't to say I look at he and Wheeler the same way.
I personally have always felt that Harveys persona was good for the team, not bad.
But when he sucks on the mound, it's a different ballgame.
That said, I do understand why he's rubbed people the wrong way at times.
I'm rooting for him - I'd love to see him get back to the old Matt this year. It would be HUGE for us. Not counting on it, but it would make such a big difference.
I think that gets lost in the Fab 5 stuff and the unrealistic expectations some Mets fans had. If Harvey did bounce back to say... 2015 levels... The Mets would have something nobody else has and we would be a major threat in the postseason.
The 51s are likely going to have a pretty interesting pen over 2018
Tyler Bashlor, Callahan, Rhame, Drew Smith, possibly Bautista eventually. Thats some serious heat. I honestly think Sewald might have to go back to AAA. There isnt much room if some of the SP have to go there.
because it really blocks someone like wheeler/montero/matz/lugo/gsellman from flourishing. I understand preventing injury, but I agree with some of the other posters that that money could have been better served on an addison reed type, while signing someone like bartolo (or actually bartolo himself) to a minor league deal. Heck the anibal sanchez signing made more sense.
I also don't really understand the Bruce signing either
I don't like Conforto in CF, and Nimmo is the only Met I see as a breakout candidate and he's blocked now. I think we could have spent the money on bruce/vargas instead on an arietta/darvish contract and then traded harvey for another need.
I am however positive about the immense depth of this team.
I think he is such a great fit for the top of the order/leadoff hitter. If he played 2B, I'd be psyched, but he's a 4th outfielder. Heard some scouts compare him to Michael Brantley - elite plate discipline, improving power, decent outfielder. Just a good baseball player.
Mets need another lefty, especially a guy with a good curve. Advanced metrics just can't account for the positive effect a guy like Vargas can have as a change of pace on hard throwing RHP like Thor, Degrom and Harvey. This move has Omar written all over it.
I also like adding depth guys. Last season was wrecked when Thor went down and Mets were pulling guys off the street to start. Vargas is a classic quality 4/5th starter who might not shut down the opponent but keeps you in games and gives the team a chance to win.
I think he is such a great fit for the top of the order/leadoff hitter. If he played 2B, I'd be psyched, but he's a 4th outfielder. Heard some scouts compare him to Michael Brantley - elite plate discipline, improving power, decent outfielder. Just a good baseball player.
Nimmo hit .227 at Vegas last year and he is always injured.
With MDD back in the fold, Nimmo might not be on the team after Conforto comes back.
Another one Im keeping my eye on this week as a surprise. Bautista, the kid we got for Reed. Dont know if he can pitch. Havent even seen him throw a BP. But walking by early AM warmups. Literally just lined up having a catch to loosen up. His whip, WOW, it jumped. Just a warmup, didnt recognize him (wearing warmup shirt, so no name or number) but I had to stop to watch for a minute. Hes unique looking so figured out it was him. But I will certainly be going out of my way to see him throw the next few weeks. Huge grain of salt though.
what happens with Nimmo when conforto comes back. Not even just this year, but the next 2-3 years given the commitment we have to the big three (bruce, conforto, cespedes?) not to mention lagares
some fluff but a lot of really good stats on his changeup and his pitching style, but a couple particular quotes bolded below part caught my eye. I really like that this offseason they added players known for being tough competitors.
Quote:
Armed with a lower release point, the gift of health and an unyielding intensity, a trait hardened over a decade in the majors, Vargas has wreaked havoc on opposing hitters, recording a 12-3 record and a league-leading 2.62 ERA in the first half.
Quote:
The first full season coming off of Tommy John, I felt like a baby deer trying to walk, Duffy says. Vargy woke up out of bed and hes an All-Star.
In a room of veterans, they talk about Vargas supreme confidence and methodical approach. They call him The Doctor, a nod to his clinical nature. Yet the conversation often turns to his most potent weapon: the change-up.
Its one of, if not, the best change-up in the game, Royals starter Jason Hammel says.
Vargas pitched about 25 starts to a 2.5 ERA last year. He was very good and kept his team in almost every one of those games. Just like Colon, when his stuff is off he gets crushed. He had 6 games where teams just lit him up. He doesnt throw hard so this makes sense to me. I feel like we are just going to have to accept those games where he doesnt have it and embrace the greater whole.
Vargas pitched about 25 starts to a 2.5 ERA last year. He was very good and kept his team in almost every one of those games. Just like Colon, when his stuff is off he gets crushed. He had 6 games where teams just lit him up. He doesnt throw hard so this makes sense to me. I feel like we are just going to have to accept those games where he doesnt have it and embrace the greater whole.
Except Colon signed a minor league deal with Texas and gets $1.75M if he makes the major league roster.
Vargas gets $8M per each of the next two seasons no matter what. Plus possibly more with incentives.
So if they're the same guy, someone should have just signed Colon.
Sometimes people say money is irrelevant, but if you read a lot of tweets from beat writers or even some of DMM's posts he says Mets were interested in player x but declined or couldn't agree to a trade or contract because of $$$. So it may matter more than some of us know.
And I'm not saying I'm opposed to the Vargas signing, but saying he's Colon doesn't make the deal look better.
Vargas pitched about 25 starts to a 2.5 ERA last year. He was very good and kept his team in almost every one of those games. Just like Colon, when his stuff is off he gets crushed. He had 6 games where teams just lit him up. He doesnt throw hard so this makes sense to me. I feel like we are just going to have to accept those games where he doesnt have it and embrace the greater whole.
Except Colon signed a minor league deal with Texas and gets $1.75M if he makes the major league roster.
Vargas gets $8M per each of the next two seasons no matter what. Plus possibly more with incentives.
So if they're the same guy, someone should have just signed Colon.
Sometimes people say money is irrelevant, but if you read a lot of tweets from beat writers or even some of DMM's posts he says Mets were interested in player x but declined or couldn't agree to a trade or contract because of $$$. So it may matter more than some of us know.
And I'm not saying I'm opposed to the Vargas signing, but saying he's Colon doesn't make the deal look better.
I think Z meant that Vargas is Colon when he originally signed with the Mets.
and if that's the case I agree with you as I said since Colon signed for a fraction of what Vargas did.
Though Atlanta paid Colon 12.5M for 2017 just a year ago, so not sure how you can say the Mets signing Vargas to an 8M deal is horrific unless you think the Braves signing Colon last year was worse than horrific. And Vargas is 10 years younger than Colon.
I am clearly saying the Vargas signing mirrors the Colon signing from a few years ago. Colon is currently finished. Im not likening Vargas to a dead guy. lol.
Though Atlanta paid Colon 12.5M for 2017 just a year ago, so not sure how you can say the Mets signing Vargas to an 8M deal is horrific unless you think the Braves signing Colon last year was worse than horrific. And Vargas is 10 years younger than Colon.
I thought it was an okay move at the time as Colon was coming off a solid season. It turned out to be arguably the worst FA signing of last year as Colon was clearly finished and he obviously wasn't the innings eater/mentor that he was expected to be. Colon was coming off a season with 191 IP and a 3.43 ERA.
I think he is such a great fit for the top of the order/leadoff hitter. If he played 2B, I'd be psyched, but he's a 4th outfielder. Heard some scouts compare him to Michael Brantley - elite plate discipline, improving power, decent outfielder. Just a good baseball player.
Nimmo is t being blocked. Hes like to be your opening day CF and leading off
Vargas is more insurance for Matz than anyone else.
Have you seen Vargas' splits vs lefties, not sure why Vargas would be insurance for Matz, he (Vargas) likely knocked Wheeler to the pen once the rotation settles in to 5-men (assuming health).
Vargas is more insurance for Matz than anyone else.
Have you seen Vargas' splits vs lefties, not sure why Vargas would be insurance for Matz, he (Vargas) likely knocked Wheeler to the pen once the rotation settles in to 5-men (assuming health).
Not because hes a lefty. Its because hes the least likely of these guys to stay healthy
not just bc he was a pirate with a lot of innings on his arm, but also bc his performance the last 2 years has gone backwards even though his numbers are still decent. His HR rate each of the last 2 years jumped up around 15% when his career average was previously below 9%. When he pitched in the 8th or 9th inning last year (35 innings) he allowed 18 earned runs (including 7 homers in the 9th inning). At the price he signed for it's a good gamble, and not to sound like a broken record but i'd have much preferred Reed.
not just bc he was a pirate with a lot of innings on his arm, but also bc his performance the last 2 years has gone backwards even though his numbers are still decent. His HR rate each of the last 2 years jumped up around 15% when his career average was previously below 9%. When he pitched in the 8th or 9th inning last year (35 innings) he allowed 18 earned runs (including 7 homers in the 9th inning). At the price he signed for it's a good gamble, and not to sound like a broken record but i'd have much preferred Reed.
I think it was really 9th innings where he struggled - I don't think we ever would have had him pitching there.
He had a 1.35 ERA in the 8th inning this past season (albeit, smallish sample of just over 13 IP)
He pitched quite well for LA. Again, only 20 total innings - but his numbers were much better there than in PIT before being dealt.
not just bc he was a pirate with a lot of innings on his arm, but also bc his performance the last 2 years has gone backwards even though his numbers are still decent. His HR rate each of the last 2 years jumped up around 15% when his career average was previously below 9%. When he pitched in the 8th or 9th inning last year (35 innings) he allowed 18 earned runs (including 7 homers in the 9th inning). At the price he signed for it's a good gamble, and not to sound like a broken record but i'd have much preferred Reed.
I think it was really 9th innings where he struggled - I don't think we ever would have had him pitching there.
He had a 1.35 ERA in the 8th inning this past season (albeit, smallish sample of just over 13 IP)
He pitched quite well for LA. Again, only 20 total innings - but his numbers were much better there than in PIT before being dealt.
Yeah I wouldn't have hated the signing because you're right, he rarely would have been in at the end of the game and he probably would have been a solid 7th inning option - I'd just prefer more upside if they're going to spend on a veteran reliever at this point.
Vargas is more insurance for Matz than anyone else.
Have you seen Vargas' splits vs lefties, not sure why Vargas would be insurance for Matz, he (Vargas) likely knocked Wheeler to the pen once the rotation settles in to 5-men (assuming health).
Not because hes a lefty. Its because hes the least likely of these guys to stay healthy
Maybe, not sure about that though, the competition for least healthy Mets starting pitcher is fierce.
As a depth guy he's fine. He's a good option to pinch hit and pinch run at the end of the game, he can play multiple positions and he supposedly has a good relationship with Rosario. It's not completely inconceivable that he'd be a better option at 2nd than Cabrera now since he might be the best leadoff guy on the team.
The Giants have signed P Tony Watson to a 2 year $7 million deal.
The Twins have signed P Anibal Sanchez to a 1 year $2.5 million deal.
OF Rajai Davis signed a minor league deal with Cleveland.
Cards sign RP Jason Motte to a minor league deal.
I believe MLB is going to take a look at that Watson contract, beat writers/national baseball reporters saying it's structured this way to avoid luxury tax (kind of like the NFL likely to be earned incentives IMO that teams used to add to avoid/adjust the timing of some cap hits)
So it sounds more like a 2 year $14M contract insured against injury I guess or a 3 year $21M deal.
Quote:
Jon HeymanVerified account @JonHeyman
watson gets 9M guarantee that could become 21M with escalators, as @jcrasnick said. some envisioned higher guarantee but with 55 games each year the escalators max out, and the durable watson has 67-plus games last 6 years. so good chance for 21M. #SFGiants
He was outstanding the first three months.
Through June, he had a 2.22 ERA in just over 100 IP.
6.66 ERA from then on. Woof.
Whether or not they can contend will depend on the health of the pitching staff and Cespedes.
On the bright side, he started the year lights out and his stuff was actually good, so it wasn't just good luck. Seems like a guy who might be better suited as a swing man whose work load should be kept down.
Again the Eiland stuff seems like a strange argument (not taking a shot at you) just.. he was AWFUL for 15 starts second half, Eiland was there. If anything the argument could be made "Eiland couldn't fix him so that's a concern". A better argument/hope would be fatigue.
Hopefully between Jake, Thor, Harvey, Matz, Wheeler, Lugo, Gsellman, and Vargas we can come up with a pretty good 5 man rotation.
A couple of those guys will get hurt. A couple will underperform. So, we'll probably need all of 'em.
Had TJ going on 3 years ago, I highly doubt there is any change stuff wise at 35.
It should be considered but the issue is that Callaway has hinted at 8 in the pen. 14 pitchers = no way.
Now waiting for someone to bitch about the Mets bringing back another former Met lol
Although he was able to bounce back from that and won 4 straight games in Sept where he pitched 22.1 innings, gave up only 16 hits and only allowed 5 ERs.
So he did have a mini self correction from an awful second half to close out the year.
If you think that the starters are Lagares, Cespedes, Bruce, AGonz, Cabrera, Rosario, Frazier, TDA. Then your bench is Nimmo, Reyes, Plawecki, Flores, Smith. That's 13 guys right there and you can only have 12 pitchers then. Flores would have to look like a real OF this spring to even consider something like that.
I like Nunez the hitter much better than Frazier - but I think it's important to bring some defense here and Frazier does that well.
Frazier is a little too far in the mold of the hitter that I wish the Mets would get away from and Nunez is the kind I wish they'd gravitate more towards - but there hasn't been enough emphasis placed on defense recently and that's important.
So, I'm okay with Frazier - especially at the price/term. Not a big commit at all and he should be a good clubhouse guy.
The good thing is, the Eiland connection. So he knows whatever was going on in the second half
At least Frazier, A-Gone, and Swarzak didn't ever play for the Mets or I'd seriously think Sandy is trolling everyone.
80%
Vargas is an ok #5. We'll see who's healthy come April.
2 years for Vargas? I'd rather roll the dice with Montero, Lugo, Gsellman, and Wheeler for the 5th rotation spot/long man especially with Vargas' lefty splits.
Jeff Passan
Verified account @JeffPassan
17h17 hours ago
There were 17 teams at Tim Lincecums workout today, and most had him at 91-93 mph with more strikes than expected. A number of teams are hoping Lincecum is willing to consider a multi-inning or potentially late-game relief role where his fastball-changeup combination can thrive.
Annnnndddddd
We have a winner ;)
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ex-Met.
Annnnndddddd
We have a winner ;)
well technically I didn't bitch about it. hard not to observe it though.
I'd bitch more about Vargas being awful than being an ex-Met, though again, hard not to acknowledge the number of ex-mets signed this year is uncanny.
80%
He just proves over and over that hes a GM that has no plan.
Who won 18 for the Mets last year?
Nothing sexy and yeah, a risk. But I'm not getting discounted tickets if the Mets were to sign him for 1 year. So ...
LET'S GO!!!
Hope springs eternal, bitches!
Well knock it off. LOL.
Do you hear any Mets interest in Lincecum?
FWIW Wheeler is pissed about the Vargas signing. Maybe it motivates him to reach the potential of the top 10 prospect he was. If it does, it's worth the 8M IMO.
Now if they can cap the offseason off with another Loogy, I think this team is ready to compete. Health is going to be the determining factor as always, but I feel as though they are equipped at most spots to handle a decent amount of injury luck.
Thor looks completely different body wise, which we were told he would. A lot more athletic in PFPs. Matz looks fuller, more mature. Wheeler looks entitled, like he just expects to be great. When the three of them are together you can just look at Thor and know hes a beast. Matz is intense. Zack is just... different.
TDA a lot of time at 2b. Not a position change like I joked last night. Just keeping him fresh. Theme for everyone early in Camp.
Conforto doing a lot of work, looking good.
Bruce is like the proud dad leading the group. Really taking a completely different approach to his leadership role, dramatic difference.
Nimmo always looked a little intimidated. Ive always said he is too soft to be great. Too content. Now seems relaxed - expect a high floor from him at this point. Legates has looked awesome a few times in past springs, so Im hesitant to tout him.
Don smith might have secretly won a $500mm lotto jackpot this offseason. I have never seen someone smile and laugh so much during practices. Ever. And that includes Jose in his youth. Jose and Wrights smiles are more genuine, but man the kid is happy this spring.
Speaking of smiles. Man is it relaxed here. Lots of vets. Everyone going about there biz. Something to prove. Quiet confidence. Everywhere.
Plawecki - leading candidate for gold glove, silver slugger and MVP at this point. Possible Cy Young candidate too. In all seriousness, Mets felt comfy enough this offseason to never seriously consider Lucroy, an unthinkable thing any other offseason.
CEs is a beast. Slimmed down beast. And clearly prefers to be in the background - which he seems to have found a bit better this year.
Speaking of background. Look in the corner of the players lot. Who brought a little boat with them to spring training
JP still wanders around aimlessly like hes actually important. Omar keeps popping up in corners talking to people. And sandy is very clearly in charge. While Fred just sits in his golf cart with his body guard and enjoys the best time of the baseball year. Unfortunately the shithead son arrives eventually...
Not sure which lefty it was, I know Nimmo was in the group hitting with Dom. But someone was hitting absolute BOMBS to RF on the main field late in yesterdays practice.
Thor looks completely different body wise, which we were told he would. A lot more athletic in PFPs. Matz looks fuller, more mature. Wheeler looks entitled, like he just expects to be great. When the three of them are together you can just look at Thor and know hes a beast. Matz is intense. Zack is just... different.
TDA a lot of time at 2b. Not a position change like I joked last night. Just keeping him fresh. Theme for everyone early in Camp.
Conforto doing a lot of work, looking good.
Bruce is like the proud dad leading the group. Really taking a completely different approach to his leadership role, dramatic difference.
Nimmo always looked a little intimidated. Ive always said he is too soft to be great. Too content. Now seems relaxed - expect a high floor from him at this point. Legates has looked awesome a few times in past springs, so Im hesitant to tout him.
Don smith might have secretly won a $500mm lotto jackpot this offseason. I have never seen someone smile and laugh so much during practices. Ever. And that includes Jose in his youth. Jose and Wrights smiles are more genuine, but man the kid is happy this spring.
Speaking of smiles. Man is it relaxed here. Lots of vets. Everyone going about there biz. Something to prove. Quiet confidence. Everywhere.
Plawecki - leading candidate for gold glove, silver slugger and MVP at this point. Possible Cy Young candidate too. In all seriousness, Mets felt comfy enough this offseason to never seriously consider Lucroy, an unthinkable thing any other offseason.
CEs is a beast. Slimmed down beast. And clearly prefers to be in the background - which he seems to have found a bit better this year.
Speaking of background. Look in the corner of the players lot. Who brought a little boat with them to spring training
JP still wanders around aimlessly like hes actually important. Omar keeps popping up in corners talking to people. And sandy is very clearly in charge. While Fred just sits in his golf cart with his body guard and enjoys the best time of the baseball year. Unfortunately the shithead son arrives eventually...
Not sure which lefty it was, I know Nimmo was in the group hitting with Dom. But someone was hitting absolute BOMBS to RF on the main field late in yesterdays practice.
Thanks for these tidbits, Sheck.
Nice to get a bit of a temp check early on. Interesting stuff.
Glad to see the Conforto looks alright. Hopefully it'll go well when he starts swinging. I actually like our OF depth. Am a fan of both Lagares and Nimmo.
Re: Vargas, he is what is. He'll give them innings. I haven't looked at the calendar but I'm sure there will be a way to get everyone a turn in the rotation if they are pitching well enough to deserve it. I like that the pitching coach has familiarity with him. Like that he's a lefty. If he can do what Colon did and just give them a couple solid starts for every clunker that will help.
Also great post Shecky.
Re: Vargas, he is what is. He'll give them innings. I haven't looked at the calendar but I'm sure there will be a way to get everyone a turn in the rotation if they are pitching well enough to deserve it. I like that the pitching coach has familiarity with him. Like that he's a lefty. If he can do what Colon did and just give them a couple solid starts for every clunker that will help.
Also great post Shecky.
Reed wasn't going to stay here with Familia and Ramos on the roster. He wants to close and has a better chance in Minnesota setting up for Rodney whos unstable
Yes. Not montero
Gsellman to Vegas, where he belongs. His arrogance bothers me. He acts like hes somehow owed a spot. Didnt pitch well until they humbled him last season
He 's always guaranteed to pitch 5 innings AT BEST.
So if somehow Wheeler can finally stay healthy (like Matz and Harvey) it's better for the Mets than if Vargas is the 5th starter.
that was before Wheeler made his MLB debut, what happened?
I like that he's confidence but he has this aura of entitlement like he's some big shot when in reality, he's proven virtually nothing at the MLB level.
Harvey has been a dick at times, too - but Matt Harvey has been an elite SP in this league before. Wheeler has not.
He's a dummy with a huge ego. He openly admits he doesn't believe in advanced numbers.
I like that he's confidence but he has this aura of entitlement like he's some big shot when in reality, he's proven virtually nothing at the MLB level.
Harvey has been a dick at times, too - but Matt Harvey has been an elite SP in this league before. Wheeler has not.
I always liked Wheeler, he has ability and seems like a good guy, just not the alpha personality like Thor/Harvery. His 1 full year (2014) was solid and I remember things starting to click for him in that second half. Just no idea what he is now after 3 seasons of injuries.
Vargas in 2017 = 18
Wheelers career WAR is about HALF of Vargas in 2017 alone lol
Vargas in 2017 = 18
I am not defending Wheeler just pointing out that W-L record for pitchers is the worst stat in determining a pitchers worth.
That could be I certainly don't have an inside info. Just the stories reporters have written about him through the years and he didn't seem like a bad guy. I remember he specifically talked about wanting to stay a Met (prior to the WS run when it wasn't the most popular thing to say) and help this team win when his name was dangled for Gomez and prior to the Cespedes trade. Just saying he never seemed like a guy who was a public problem.
Jeffy probably also adds the cost of sunflower seeds and Gatorade to their payroll numbers.
LOL. Based on all evidence we've seen, his arm doesn't seem up to being able to handle 200 IP as a stater! Being an RP might be the only for him to have an MLB career.
I have seen probably 4 or 5 separate shots that seemed like PR shots with Thor, DeGrom, Harvey and Matz and I kept wondering, no Wheeler?
Maine on the other hand...
It almost cemented his status as a NY icon
Maine on the other hand...
Matt Harvey legit believes in himself. Some of these guys talk a big game. It doesn't mean Harvey will ever bounce back (I don't believe he will) but his body let him down. Mentally he could have been a true great.
Its not just him. Boras, Eilland, and Callaway are all saying similar stuff. To be fair we were told he wouldnt be 100% healthy last year until June and he had no offseason to prepare like he normally would. I also feel like visually he would start out hitting 95 in the first inning but would be totally gassed by the 5th throwing 92/91. I think it was a conditioning issue as well. Im cautiously optimistic but obviously not expecting anything yet. Alex Cobb had TOS and Tommy John and made it back. Its possible.
if you remember last year I thought no way can the Mets have injuries anything like 2016, but yet 2017 was probably worse - I predicted 95 wins for the Mets.
So while I love to hear it, Harvey is possibly the first home grown Mets pitcher since Gooden I thought had electric stuff. a true potential ace/perennial cy young candidate.
DeGrom doesn't maybe get the credit he deserves because he does too, but Harvey came first and made a much younger debut, was a CT native, he had people dreaming.
Now, I'm less than cautiously optimistic, I'm not quite pessimistic, but I expect nothing.
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where Matt Harvey says he feels there is no reason he can't be as good as he ever was.
Its not just him. Boras, Eilland, and Callaway are all saying similar stuff. To be fair we were told he wouldnt be 100% healthy last year until June and he had no offseason to prepare like he normally would. I also feel like visually he would start out hitting 95 in the first inning but would be totally gassed by the 5th throwing 92/91. I think it was a conditioning issue as well. Im cautiously optimistic but obviously not expecting anything yet. Alex Cobb had TOS and Tommy John and made it back. Its possible.
Alex Cobb has not been the same pitcher. 2013-2014 3.29 FIP, after his 2 injuries (last 34 starts) 4.32 FIP. We'd all take that from Harvey but that's not exactly "making it back" in terms of what we would want from Matt Harvey
Anyone with a brain would take a 4.23 FIP Harvey this year. I mean he was in the mix for worst SP in baseball last season.
Harvey also said last year his right shoulder was weaker than his left, and that now it is much stronger. Its not uncommon to read this stuff in ST, and I seriously doubt we will see the Harvey of old, but if they can get something from him, it could be an interesting year.
Matt Harvey A Lot Left in the Tank - ( New Window )
I worry he clogs a spot and blocks a more upside play but hes been basically a league average pitcher since 2010. Likening him to Colon is fair I think. He likely does give us some innings. Its not the worst move. I was much more excited about some of other moves but its all good.
Season will still come down to key pieces like Thor returning to health and the maturation of guys like Rosario IMO.
I personally have always felt that Harveys persona was good for the team, not bad.
But when he sucks on the mound, it's a different ballgame.
That said, I do understand why he's rubbed people the wrong way at times.
I'm rooting for him - I'd love to see him get back to the old Matt this year. It would be HUGE for us. Not counting on it, but it would make such a big difference.
2.) deGrom
3.) Harvey
4.) Matz
5.) Vargas
Familia
Swarzak
Ramos
Blevins
2nd LOOGY not yet here
Wheeler
Montero
AAA rotation
Gsellman
Lugo
Flexen
Oswalt
Molina/Knapp
Suddenly the AAA team doesnt look too bad. No Wilks, Pills, or Millones this year.
I am however positive about the immense depth of this team.
Mets need another lefty, especially a guy with a good curve. Advanced metrics just can't account for the positive effect a guy like Vargas can have as a change of pace on hard throwing RHP like Thor, Degrom and Harvey. This move has Omar written all over it.
I also like adding depth guys. Last season was wrecked when Thor went down and Mets were pulling guys off the street to start. Vargas is a classic quality 4/5th starter who might not shut down the opponent but keeps you in games and gives the team a chance to win.
Not saying it clicked, but I would not be surprised to see him break out this year.
Nimmo hit .227 at Vegas last year and he is always injured.
With MDD back in the fold, Nimmo might not be on the team after Conforto comes back.
(Lol, autocorrect above)
You mean without Conforto, right?
So:
Ces
Lagares
Bruce
Nimmo?
FLores, Cespedes, Bruce can all be DHs at times
In a room of veterans, they talk about Vargas supreme confidence and methodical approach. They call him The Doctor, a nod to his clinical nature. Yet the conversation often turns to his most potent weapon: the change-up.
Its one of, if not, the best change-up in the game, Royals starter Jason Hammel says.
Small changes turned Jason Vargas, a Tommy John survivor, into a frontline starter - ( New Window )
FLores, Cespedes, Bruce can all be DHs at times
True but that goes with most teams in the NL.
Except Colon signed a minor league deal with Texas and gets $1.75M if he makes the major league roster.
Vargas gets $8M per each of the next two seasons no matter what. Plus possibly more with incentives.
So if they're the same guy, someone should have just signed Colon.
Sometimes people say money is irrelevant, but if you read a lot of tweets from beat writers or even some of DMM's posts he says Mets were interested in player x but declined or couldn't agree to a trade or contract because of $$$. So it may matter more than some of us know.
And I'm not saying I'm opposed to the Vargas signing, but saying he's Colon doesn't make the deal look better.
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Vargas pitched about 25 starts to a 2.5 ERA last year. He was very good and kept his team in almost every one of those games. Just like Colon, when his stuff is off he gets crushed. He had 6 games where teams just lit him up. He doesnt throw hard so this makes sense to me. I feel like we are just going to have to accept those games where he doesnt have it and embrace the greater whole.
Except Colon signed a minor league deal with Texas and gets $1.75M if he makes the major league roster.
Vargas gets $8M per each of the next two seasons no matter what. Plus possibly more with incentives.
So if they're the same guy, someone should have just signed Colon.
Sometimes people say money is irrelevant, but if you read a lot of tweets from beat writers or even some of DMM's posts he says Mets were interested in player x but declined or couldn't agree to a trade or contract because of $$$. So it may matter more than some of us know.
And I'm not saying I'm opposed to the Vargas signing, but saying he's Colon doesn't make the deal look better.
I think Z meant that Vargas is Colon when he originally signed with the Mets.
and if that's the case I agree with you as I said since Colon signed for a fraction of what Vargas did.
Though Atlanta paid Colon 12.5M for 2017 just a year ago, so not sure how you can say the Mets signing Vargas to an 8M deal is horrific unless you think the Braves signing Colon last year was worse than horrific. And Vargas is 10 years younger than Colon.
Though Atlanta paid Colon 12.5M for 2017 just a year ago, so not sure how you can say the Mets signing Vargas to an 8M deal is horrific unless you think the Braves signing Colon last year was worse than horrific. And Vargas is 10 years younger than Colon.
I thought it was an okay move at the time as Colon was coming off a solid season. It turned out to be arguably the worst FA signing of last year as Colon was clearly finished and he obviously wasn't the innings eater/mentor that he was expected to be. Colon was coming off a season with 191 IP and a 3.43 ERA.
Yup. And likely the lead off hitter too
Nimmo is t being blocked. Hes like to be your opening day CF and leading off
Have you seen Vargas' splits vs lefties, not sure why Vargas would be insurance for Matz, he (Vargas) likely knocked Wheeler to the pen once the rotation settles in to 5-men (assuming health).
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Vargas is more insurance for Matz than anyone else.
Have you seen Vargas' splits vs lefties, not sure why Vargas would be insurance for Matz, he (Vargas) likely knocked Wheeler to the pen once the rotation settles in to 5-men (assuming health).
Not because hes a lefty. Its because hes the least likely of these guys to stay healthy
The Twins have signed P Anibal Sanchez to a 1 year $2.5 million deal.
OF Rajai Davis signed a minor league deal with Cleveland.
Cards sign RP Jason Motte to a minor league deal.
Agreed, I expected him to get double that.
I think it was really 9th innings where he struggled - I don't think we ever would have had him pitching there.
He had a 1.35 ERA in the 8th inning this past season (albeit, smallish sample of just over 13 IP)
He pitched quite well for LA. Again, only 20 total innings - but his numbers were much better there than in PIT before being dealt.
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not just bc he was a pirate with a lot of innings on his arm, but also bc his performance the last 2 years has gone backwards even though his numbers are still decent. His HR rate each of the last 2 years jumped up around 15% when his career average was previously below 9%. When he pitched in the 8th or 9th inning last year (35 innings) he allowed 18 earned runs (including 7 homers in the 9th inning). At the price he signed for it's a good gamble, and not to sound like a broken record but i'd have much preferred Reed.
I think it was really 9th innings where he struggled - I don't think we ever would have had him pitching there.
He had a 1.35 ERA in the 8th inning this past season (albeit, smallish sample of just over 13 IP)
He pitched quite well for LA. Again, only 20 total innings - but his numbers were much better there than in PIT before being dealt.
Yeah I wouldn't have hated the signing because you're right, he rarely would have been in at the end of the game and he probably would have been a solid 7th inning option - I'd just prefer more upside if they're going to spend on a veteran reliever at this point.
Quote:
In comment 13835207 Rflairr said:
Quote:
Vargas is more insurance for Matz than anyone else.
Have you seen Vargas' splits vs lefties, not sure why Vargas would be insurance for Matz, he (Vargas) likely knocked Wheeler to the pen once the rotation settles in to 5-men (assuming health).
Not because hes a lefty. Its because hes the least likely of these guys to stay healthy
Maybe, not sure about that though, the competition for least healthy Mets starting pitcher is fierce.
As a depth guy he's fine. He's a good option to pinch hit and pinch run at the end of the game, he can play multiple positions and he supposedly has a good relationship with Rosario. It's not completely inconceivable that he'd be a better option at 2nd than Cabrera now since he might be the best leadoff guy on the team.
The Twins have signed P Anibal Sanchez to a 1 year $2.5 million deal.
OF Rajai Davis signed a minor league deal with Cleveland.
Cards sign RP Jason Motte to a minor league deal.
I believe MLB is going to take a look at that Watson contract, beat writers/national baseball reporters saying it's structured this way to avoid luxury tax (kind of like the NFL likely to be earned incentives IMO that teams used to add to avoid/adjust the timing of some cap hits)
So it sounds more like a 2 year $14M contract insured against injury I guess or a 3 year $21M deal.
watson gets 9M guarantee that could become 21M with escalators, as @jcrasnick said. some envisioned higher guarantee but with 55 games each year the escalators max out, and the durable watson has 67-plus games last 6 years. so good chance for 21M. #SFGiants