I was just watching the Boise State vs San Diego State game focused on Leighton Vander Esch, who Mayock has as his third best LBer in the draft. Here is the link to that video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9S0ajSGQRg
This is a position I expect Gettleman to be putting a priority on in the draft. Obviously, not in the first round, barring a significant trade down. However, thought we could get a discussion going given the large need on the roster with so few returning starters.
Based on the San Diego State game, I wasn't all that impressed with Vander Esch. It's just one game, and obviously need to see more. He made some plays, fought through blocks ok. I did not see many opportunities for him to fly across the field, so I don't think I can comment on his speed yet. But he had a good drop into coverage, seems to understand his assignments and play designs, and is a good tackler when he meets the ball carrier.
One thing I wanted to see but didn't was a lot of intensity. I saw some plays where he pulls up assuming his teammates have the ball carrier well in hand. From the linebacker spot, I want to see non-stop, full-speed pursuit through the whistle. We'll see if that is more apparent in other games.
He has good size at 6'4", 240 lbs (we'll see at the combine), and was wildly productive this year (one year wonder, though). Tallied 141 tackles, 91 solo, 8.5 TFLs, 4 sacks, 4 INTs, 6 PDs, and 4 FF. Obviously, the INTs and forced fumbles in that stat line is very impressive.
Still, I'm a little surprised, based on what I saw, why Mayock would have him above Rashaan Evans. And Matthew Thomas, although he didn't put up huge numbers, did not even make his top 5, and I suspect both of those guys will be better NFL players than Vander Esch.
Anyway, this isn't intended to be just about Vander Esch, but thought I'd start there, since Mayock really seems to like him and he'll likely be available at the point in the draft where the Giants may be looking hard at drafting a linebacker.
BTW, a guy that DID stand out to me in that game is S Kekoa Nawahine. He just finished his sophomore season, and obviously is not in this draft, but he is a guy to keep an eye on next year. Finished just behind Vander Esch in tackles as a sophomore and was all over the field. Remember that name.
Hey. It's a new regime. You can't assume things are going to be like they were before under JR.
The Giants reportedly spent a lot of time scouting the LB's during senior bowl week. Reese and Ross are gone this is a new regime that will finally address the LB position.
This is the best I've seen of him so far. He makes some impact plays here, plays with more intensity than what I saw in the BYU or SDSU game, and makes some big plays.
However, there are still instances where I don't see him pursue that hard and times where I think he needs to show more physicality and he does not.
I really love the play on 3rd and 1 with 8:57 to go in the 3rd quarter. He fights through a block and gets a big TFL at an important time of the game to stop that drive. Watch the play at 2:25 left in the 3rd, though. He gets to the receiver, and you need to stop forward progress there. Where is the force to the collision? Get in there and drive that guy back? There is no reason for you to allow him to push forward. That should be a sure tackle, tackle everybody. That next play should be 2nd and 5, not 2nd and 2. Then the 4th and 1 play with 10:26 left in the 4th quarter. This is a play where I think if he pursues harder early in the play, he gets outside quicker and has a chance to get the Broncos defense off the field. Instead, maybe he assumes his teammate #58 is going to make this tackle in the backfield, but he doesn't, and by the time he gets over there, the QB has a first down. His assignment does appear to be to spy the QB on this play, so there's not really an excuse.
A couple of plays later, at 9:12 left in the game, here's pretty good pursuit, but he doesn't get enough of the RB, here, Tony Brooks-James. Brooks-James is listed as a 5-9, 185 lb RB. You have to get this guy on the ground. He's able to fight through the tackle and get the first down.
Earlier in the game, he makes a tone-setting play where he diagnoses the pass into the flat to Brooks-James, is able to get to him in the backfield, squares him up with a great tackle and forces the fumble that BSU recovers. I need more of that. Also watch the play he makes with 14:03 left before halftime. Great pursuit here, I need to see him get after it like this all the time. But on the very next play, he whiffs on the tackle in the backfield, and he does so because he pulls up a bit rather than just attacking the ball carrier and driving through him. He just pulls up a little bit in the hole.
One more play I'd like to point out. 11:20 left in the 4th quarter, he's the blitzing linebacker. #29, a 211 lb RB (Kani Benoit), has the blitz pickup. Watch Vander Esch pull up a bit before the block. I want him to deliver a blow there to the RB and knock his ass right back into the QB. You can't let a guy you have 30 lbs on block you high that well. You have to physically dominate him and this is an example of what I mean by I want to see more intensity at times and that he needs to play with more physicality.
Here's the video, there's good and bad here, but if his motor was 'on' all the time, I think he could be a 2nd round pick perhaps late first. But where I think I'd end up considering him would be the 4th round.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V8dZI_HZX8
I do think Thompson and Adams will improve. Also.
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Tune in on DAY 3 of the draft for that action.
The Giants reportedly spent a lot of time scouting the LB's during senior bowl week. Reese and Ross are gone this is a new regime that will finally address the LB position.
Amazing how fan continue to blame the lack of impact LBs on Jerry Reese when the Giants have not drafted a impact LB since George Young drafted Jessie Armstead...and that was by accident. Jerry Reese feel in line with what he was taught by the 2 guys that sat in the chair before he got there.
Very aggressive. He's probably going to be a lot better with the play in front of him than he is in a coverage drop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWMn2kZ3r0
vs. Wisconsin 2017
vs. UNLV 2017
vs. Boise St. 2017
vs. Utah 2017
He'd be a day 3 pick.
Very aggressive. He's probably going to be a lot better with the play in front of him than he is in a coverage drop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWMn2kZ3r0
I'm interested to see his 40. I think he might be fast enough to play MLB and cover in the nickle.
vs. Wisconsin 2017
vs. UNLV 2017
vs. Boise St. 2017
vs. Utah 2017
He'd be a day 3 pick.
I'm going to check Warner out, Adam.
I like Josey Jewell a lot in the middle and I like Kemoko Turay on the outside..
Roquan, Edmunds, Vander Esch, Evans, Jerome Baker, Malik Jefferson, Josey Jewell, Darius Leonard, Oren Burks, Tegray Scales, Tre Williams, Shaun Dion Hamilton, Jack Cichy, Lorenzo Carter & Skai Moore.
That's not including rush LBers like Harold Landry, Dorance Armstrong, Arden Key, Jeff Holland, Uchenna Nwosu, Ogbonnia Okoronkwo, Marcus Davenport, Josh Sweat, James Hearns.
I like Josey Jewell a lot in the middle and I like Kemoko Turay on the outside..
I do too but I think this a pretty good LB class.
I like Nwosu and Leonard, but for completely different purposes. It will depend a bunch on what the team does in free agency and what Bettcher's plans are for the defense (will it be more of a three man or a four man front?).
p.s.--Normally Leonard would not fit the prototype of a Giants draft pick at LB, but Gettleman has a history of taking smaller, speedier linebackers.
I like Nwosu and Leonard, but for completely different purposes. It will depend a bunch on what the team does in free agency and what Bettcher's plans are for the defense (will it be more of a three man or a four man front?).
p.s.--Normally Leonard would not fit the prototype of a Giants draft pick at LB, but Gettleman has a history of taking smaller, speedier linebackers.
How is Leonard small?
p.s.--Normally Leonard would not fit the prototype of a Giants draft pick at LB, but Gettleman has a history of taking smaller, speedier linebackers.
How is Leonard small?
p.s.--On the other hand (no pun intended), Leonard has 10 3/8 inch hands and 34 1/8 inch arms and those are numbers that make the Giants scouts cream in their underwear.
Plus he's from SC State. IIRC, we had a pretty good LB from that school.
Roquan, Edmunds, Vander Esch, Evans, Jerome Baker, Malik Jefferson, Josey Jewell, Darius Leonard, Oren Burks, Tegray Scales, Tre Williams, Shaun Dion Hamilton, Jack Cichy, Lorenzo Carter & Skai Moore.
That's not including rush LBers like Harold Landry, Dorance Armstrong, Arden Key, Jeff Holland, Uchenna Nwosu, Ogbonnia Okoronkwo, Marcus Davenport, Josh Sweat, James Hearns.
Lol you named everyone coming out..
I'm just not seeing it, not yet anyway. Admittedly I haven't spent the time I've wanted to on them.. But from what I've seen so far I see more athletes than true LBs. I like Roquan Smith. Evans is solid and I think we'll like him. Jewell is pro ready. I'm very high on him, probably higher than most.
I don't like Vander Esch. Great athlete, very fluid, probably do great at the combine but I don't see the instincts and he's not physical. Far too many times I saw him get washed out or taken from a play by a G or even FB who wont see a down in the NFL.
How many games of Vander Esch have you watched? You're literally the first person I've seen have anything negative to say about his instincts. I thought he was a very instinctive player and most if not all scouting reports I've read agree with that.
Shedding blocks is definitely one of his problems. Needs to get stronger for sure, but he's only 21 so that will eventually happen. Especially once he hits an NFL weight training program. Shedding blocks is/was a knock on a lot of great LBs currently in the NFL when they were going through the draft process so it's not something I worry about with him. He's got the frame to get stronger.
He's a guy who will get strong consideration at 34, but by the time the draft is here I doubt he will be available. I think he can definitely be our Luke Kuechly (Not as good) who will quarterback the defense. Very smooth change of direction. Great athletic ability. Can stop the run and play the pass. Sideline to sideline guy. Most of the time in the right place at the right time. Good pass rusher. Hard to find a guy with that size who is a legit 3 down LB. Would love to see him in Bettcher's defense. Just let him line up anywhere and cause havoc.
It would be a very great draft for DG if he can get the Quarterback of the future on both offense and defense.
I think Edmunds could be very good, but IMO he needs a lot of work. Relies heavily on his athletic ability which is great in college, but Idk how it will translate to the NFL. His instincts are very bad. Overpursues often and tends to make big mistakes in coverage. Great size and athletic ability though. Misdirection plays really seem to throw him off. Think he's the biggest boom or bust prospect in this draft. Obviously I'd love him at 34, but he probably doesn't get past the 15th pick.
I like Vander Esch much better. Same size. Vander Esch isn't far off as an athlete, but his instincts are far superior. Edmunds is a better athlete for sure, but Vander Esch is a better football player. I think Vander Esch is in the Sean Lee, Luke Kuechly mold. A guy whose always in the right place at the right time. He's a bit bigger then Kuechly and more athletic then Sean Lee.
Vander Esch is solid and he'd improve our team a lot, but he's more of a high floor , low cieling player.
I wouldn't throw the remote if they took Roquan Smith at 2. Our LBers are so bad, how could we not dramatically improve with a top LB, plus he compliments Goodson as Goodson is not nearly as athletic but he is more phsyical.
Agreed. 2 time All american. Sign me up for this guy.
Edmunds is too scary for me to take him top 10. I could be blanking, but I can't really remember the last time an off the ball LB with great size/speed with bad instincts worked out in the NFL. If I'm picking somewhere between 25-35 then he'd definitely be my guy. I wouldn't touch him top 10 though.
And imo no way Oliver can be any good at OLB. He'll be 3 years removed from that at Miami. He's not that fast/quick for a LB.
They shouldn't do this.
Fit your style to the team's strengths. Don't force your style for a team that it just doesn't fit unless your intent is to rebuild.
At that point look to trade one of the DT's. You have arguably two DT's been than JPP yet you are going to give JPP more time? How is that even sensible?
And imo no way Oliver can be any good at OLB. He'll be 3 years removed from that at Miami. He's not that fast/quick for a LB.
They shouldn't do this.
Fit your style to the team's strengths. Don't force your style for a team that it just doesn't fit unless your intent is to rebuild.
At that point look to trade one of the DT's. You have arguably two DT's been than JPP yet you are going to give JPP more time? How is that even sensible?
Clay Matthews, as a OLB in the 3-4, isn't asked to drop into coverage often. He's rushing the passer most of the time. That's what Vernon would be. Right now the Giants need a couple of linebackers to run a 3-4 or a 4-3. But you're still going to have your best on the field. JPP and Tomlinson would be the ends, Snacks at the nose, and Vernon rushing from the linebacker spot.
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Could play inside in the 3-4 and move to outside coverage backer in the nickle.
vs. Wisconsin 2017
vs. UNLV 2017
vs. Boise St. 2017
vs. Utah 2017
He'd be a day 3 pick.
I'm going to check Warner out, Adam.
Any thoughts?