It is difficult to know what they are really looking for. Are they looking to replicate the ARI scheme as best as possible? When it comes to personal, there really aren't many similarities. I know the best defensive minds (and we have one them) ar every capable of adapting to new personnel, but I'm sure moving forward they are going to look for at least some 3-4 pieces.
If I am going to use ARI as a rough example...I think they are going to look for a speed linebacker (possibly Collins fits in to that role), a 3-4 edge rushing type (meaning lesser size than a 4-3 DE) another man cover CB, a better centerfield type FS, and a 3-4 DE type.
Thoughts?
And go after DL in the draft?
I think a more interesting question is how Bettcher will utilize the defensive ends on the roster aside from the two starters. Where do you see Okwara and Moss fitting in?
What is a speed LBer? A good coverage guy? That's not Collins strong point. If Collins moves from SS to LB, now we need a good SS.
Does a safety's role change when you go from 4-3 to 3-4?
Thanks.
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...I think they are going to look for a speed linebacker (possibly Collins fits in to that role)...
What is a speed LBer? A good coverage guy? That's not Collins strong point. If Collins moves from SS to LB, now we need a good SS.
Does a safety's role change when you go from 4-3 to 3-4?
Thanks.
Collins can cover better or as well as any LB you know. It’s not his strong point when it comes to covering wideouts but he can cover backs and tight ends more than well enough.
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...I think they are going to look for a speed linebacker (possibly Collins fits in to that role)...
What is a speed LBer? A good coverage guy? That's not Collins strong point. If Collins moves from SS to LB, now we need a good SS.
Does a safety's role change when you go from 4-3 to 3-4?
Thanks.
Think LB/S Deone Bucannon Arizona Cardinals
I would like to see us draft a good CB AND keep DRC. Start Jenkins and DRC outside.
Draft or sign a FS... Thompson and Adams would make nice depth at safety behind Collins and Earl Thomas... just joking but we seriously need a safety with range and ball skills, like Sy said a Center Fielder.
I like JPP and OV a ton in this scheme because they can be interchangeable from left to right AND from inside to outside. I think they both can effectively play ROLB, RDE, LDE, LOLB in a 3-4 front.
Snacks is the best NT in the game hands down, won’t waste any time typing about how well he will fit in.
Tomlinson can play the NT when Snacks needs a snack or whatever but can he play at DE regularly?
I would focus on another man to man corner who can play the slot if need be, but mainly I think we need to get those speed linebackers like Sy’ was talking about, inside and outside.
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...I think they are going to look for a speed linebacker (possibly Collins fits in to that role)...
What is a speed LBer? A good coverage guy? That's not Collins strong point. If Collins moves from SS to LB, now we need a good SS.
Does a safety's role change when you go from 4-3 to 3-4?
Thanks.
For a LB, Collins would be considered fast/speedy.
I wonder if they will see Collins as a Buchanon type...not sure I think Collins is that good to be honest, but they might see him as that kind of guy.
JPP needs to be viewed as more 3-4 DE than edge rusher. He just doesn't have the pop out of his stance and when he plays across from the tackle head on, he is actually pretty stable against the run.
OV is an edge guy in the scheme similar to how they used Markus Golden. Tomlinson is a solid 3-4 DE type that can shift inside against G/C on passing downs. If Harrison is, again, only good got 60-65% of the game's snaps weekly, Tomlinson is going to be mightily important and they probably need another DT as well. A good one.
Tremaine Edmunds has my attention because he is a freak that covers exceptionally well. But his instincts are poorly graded on my sheet, and that is so important for a LB.
That would be nice. I think there is a chance it could happen. Landry had a down year/injuries and may be a bit undersized, but he will be an electric pass rusher. Key also had a down year and there is some worry about him off the field.
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Fall to 34th overall? And would they fit in a 3-4 OLB role? Thanks.
That would be nice. I think there is a chance it could happen. Landry had a down year/injuries and may be a bit undersized, but he will be an electric pass rusher. Key also had a down year and there is some worry about him off the field.
Lorenzo Carter, UGA, 3-4 OLB- He really flashed when I was watching Roquan Smith. 6'6, 245. Similar to Leonard Floyd. The coaching staff said he was athletic enough to play CB in a pinch. Not an elite pass rusher but he can develop into one I think. Only 4.5 sacks this year, and 5 last year, but he is disruptive and does a great job setting the edge vs the run. 3rd or 4th rounder
Kemoko Turay, Rutgers 3-4 OLB - was a beast at the senior bowl. Was an all-american as a freshmen, but struggled with injuries the past couple of years. Incredible bend and quick first step. He might be the best in the draft in that regard. 3rd rounder as of now IMO.
Dorrance Armstrong, Kansas, 3-4 OLB. 6'4, 240lbs. Had a great season in 16', faced a lot of double teams last year. Very disruptive and was really the only guy on Kansas that offenses had to gameplan for. 3rd or 4th rounder.
Armani Watts, FS, TX AM- range, ball skills. Undersized but he can hit. Needs to have better tackling technique as he goes for the knockout hit too often and doesn't wrap up, but he can be a Rodney McCleod type at Safety in the 4th round.
At 3-4 DE, I wouldn't mind a mid round flier on Da'Shawn Hand from Bama. He kind of underpeformed at Bama but has great potential and it showed at the senior bowl where he was very impressive at times. Also grew up a Giants fan in Philly as he mentioned in an interview at the Senior Bowl.
Tremaine Edmunds has my attention because he is a freak that covers exceptionally well. But his instincts are poorly graded on my sheet, and that is so important for a LB.
Thanks, going to look into Leonard, don’t know him.
I doubt either Evans or Edmunds make it into round 2. I hear Edmunds will impress in Indy.
Lorenzo Carter, UGA, 3-4 OLB- He really flashed when I was watching Roquan Smith. 6'6, 245. Similar to Leonard Floyd. The coaching staff said he was athletic enough to play CB in a pinch. Not an elite pass rusher but he can develop into one I think. Only 4.5 sacks this year, and 5 last year, but he is disruptive and does a great job setting the edge vs the run. 3rd or 4th rounder
Kemoko Turay, Rutgers 3-4 OLB - was a beast at the senior bowl. Was an all-american as a freshmen, but struggled with injuries the past couple of years. Incredible bend and quick first step. He might be the best in the draft in that regard. 3rd rounder as of now IMO.
Dorrance Armstrong, Kansas, 3-4 OLB. 6'4, 240lbs. Had a great season in 16', faced a lot of double teams last year. Very disruptive and was really the only guy on Kansas that offenses had to gameplan for. 3rd or 4th rounder.
Armani Watts, FS, TX AM- range, ball skills. Undersized but he can hit. Needs to have better tackling technique as he goes for the knockout hit too often and doesn't wrap up, but he can be a Rodney McCleod type at Safety in the 4th round.
At 3-4 DE, I wouldn't mind a mid round flier on Da'Shawn Hand from Bama. He kind of underpeformed at Bama but has great potential and it showed at the senior bowl where he was very impressive at times. Also grew up a Giants fan in Philly as he mentioned in an interview at the Senior Bowl.
I like Carter and Nwosu too.
I suspect that it won't matter as he'll be gone to a 4-3 team in Round 1, but I like his get off and pass rushing ability a lot.
I suspect that it won't matter as he'll be gone to a 4-3 team in Round 1, but I like his get off and pass rushing ability a lot.
I forget which analyst it was but they said they saw a lot of Demarcus Ware in this kid Davenport. Doesn’t answer your question just thought I’d mention it.
The plan should and probably will be to load up on LBs in FA and find a guy or two in the draft.
Well, I don't really have an opinion, but since you asked ...
If you look at the Cardinals outside linebackers (OLBs), most are over 260 lbs. 34 OLBs tend to be bigger guys; kinda like Strahan size (6'5" 255-265+lbs). I think they have to be because they often need to take on offensive tackles. I guess I am in the minority here, but I do see JPP kicking out and playing the OLB role in the 34. Dallas did it when Parcells was there, kicking out Ellis and Demarcus Ware to play OLB. I think the Ravens did something similar with Suggs (although I read somewhere that is was actually a 43). On passing downs where the defense went to a nickel or dime, Suggs put his hand in the dirt. That is what I expect Bettcher to do with JPP and probably Vernon. I say probably on Vernon because someone on BBI stated that Vernon played the down lineman position when the Dolphins were running the 34 there. I don't know if that is true or not. Vernon plays with excellent pad level.
What I see the Giants lacking are true 34 5-techniques. They don't really have any of those. I guess Tomlinson can play that. But they need to keep Tomlinson and Harrison fresh to play the 0 technique in the 34. That position gets beaten up with frequent double teams. The Giants' coaches will really need to watch the snaps those guys take in that role. Again, looking at the Cardinals roster, if you look at the down defensive linemen they have, that is where I think the real issue is for the Giants. They have to establish the line of scrimmage if/when they run the 34, which will probably be on run downs. So that is the area, I think, they need to address first. What good are LB's if you don't have the down linemen to control the LOS? Keep in mind, the Cardinals under Bettcher used the 3-3-5 a lot, too. But that may have been because it fit their personnel better, and got their best players on the field. Maybe 5-techs can be found in FA.
Next, the inside linebackers (ILBs). Eric posted a list of the LB's currently under contract with the Giants. It looks really bad to me. Again, I go back to who the Cardinals have on their roster right now. Their ILB's are smaller (6'1"-6'2" 235-ish) and that is where they currently list Reddick, their first round pick from 2017 (see link). The Giants are slow at LB; especially middle. That is a big problem that I think Bettcher will want to address fast. But you can get LB's in the later rounds. There are a lot of 6'2" 235lb draft prospects out there. Not as many 34 5-techniques.
Then there is "$LB" Bucannon. He is about the same size as Collins. I've never seen Bucannon play, so I can't comment on how much different he is compared to Collins. But Collins is a heat seeking missile near the LOS. If I'm Bettcher, I want to do what I can to get Collins down near the LOS more often and less often playing deep safety.
That brings me to the secondary. The Cardinals drafted Budda Baker in 2017 (see link). I don't know how Bettcher used him. It sounds like Baker is a free safety type (smaller, quicker/faster than SS), that can slide down and cover the slot WR or play center field. The Giants don't currently have one of those. I don't know how much Bettcher played single high, but you really need a center fielder to lower the risk of playing that. I have read Bettcher plays about a 50-50 mix of man and zone coverages. I assume he plays a lot of man with two deep zone. They really need help at safety. The BBI police will surely correct me, but a trade down scenario where the Giants draft Minkah Fitzpatrick would give Bettcher a lot of flexibility. I don't think it happens. But, it is a possible scenario no matter how far fetched. The Giants are probably OK at corner for next year.
As I was writing this I was thinking about the Seahawks defensive line configuration. It is a 43, but with a true 5-technique, 1-tech and 3-tech. Then a "LEO" pass rusher type. Maybe Bettcher does something like that for the first year. Then he only needs one 5-tech instead of two. He won't be able to get all of the pieces in one off-season to run what he ran in Arizona.
In conclusion, and maybe contradicting my 5-tech rant, I think the Giants go after IMPACT defensive players in the draft. Guys like Reddick, Bucannon and Golden. Guys that are tweener/hybrid types that are quick and fast and can get pressure on the QB. They need to get faster and they need to get more consistent pressure on the passer in 2018.
Thanks for asking!
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Will need 2, likely 3 LBs; move Collins and its an FS & SS plus 2 LBs, and at least 1 man cover CB. Plus, whatever DL needs are.
I'm guessing its a sign one, draft one on positions that have multiple needs.
Hopefully, DGs ability to find starters or at least solid backups in RDS 3-7 continues for the next 2 years so we can replenish our roster with picks and UDFAs, sprinkled with FAs.
Too bad we have no marketable assets; this would be a good year to trade a position we are deep at, for,a 2nd/3rd rounder.
Trading our 2, if we could would have been great; would get another 2nd round pick where there's good talent to mid round. But if then Goodbye QB.
From Boylhart...
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From Boylhart...
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Harrison is one of the top defensive linemen in this draft because he can play multiple positions in multiple style fronts in any style of defense. He can play on the nose in a 3/4 defense because of his quick feet and strength. He can also play outside in a 3/4 defense because of his quick feet, strength and ability to get into the back field quickly. He can play as a defensive tackle over the left guard in a 4/3 defense because of his high football IQ. He can play in a 1gap attack defense or in a 2 gap run stuffing defense. His quick feet make it possible for him to be able to play more than one position getting into the back field quickly and his size, strength and lateral agility make it easy for him to play in a 2 gap scheme and stuff the run.
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Not sure I agree there. I think is a top 60 player, not top 40.
Obviously individual safeties and linebackers and dbacks differ greatly from one another in ability in the two tasks that require - very different - skills and instincts.
2. It's been said that the new DC 'uses single gaps' within a nominal 3/4. If true, it sounds like many are assuming traditional 3/4 in searching types.
3. Either way we do need one more nose tackle. Why-
a) I dont think Tomlinson fills in at it.
b) And I want to free snacks up -from only- that...as he is arguably the best n.y. giant on either side right now and should be used more varaibly and aggressively to leverage his skills.
c) Even if it WAS a traditional 3/4 you cannot have just one core player type. Even at QB we have 3 on roster ...and there will be sets when both Nose Tackles play at the same time on the line. So..
The other interesting part about the Cardinals scheme is that they use two stand up pass rushers as their OLBs. In my opinion, Vernon can fit one of those roles, but I think they need more pass rushers. It's possible JPP can play the other stand up role, but I think JPP fits well as a 34 DE and he can likely be moved around like Pernell McPhee was in Baltimore.
Slightly Bigger - 250-255. Even Andy Headen and Byron Hunt(iirc) were 250+ and they could run like the wind.
Today he is an athletic 320lbs. ..big,big change.
And the pass gets out quick like very often in today's game as well. For those assignment s
For team running some 3-4 looks, Turay fits the need for an explosive edge rusher. RU didn’t use him in the best way to take advantage of his skills. Focus on his pass rush skills and I’ll think you’ll be impressed.
Imho what your seeing is divergence where the OLBs get bigger , still faster ..but are not required to defend the pass at all.. just pass rush and run defend
- and the ILBs have to zone defend pass or even cover at times a TE or RB and thus are much more safety-like.
Why I have not liked the goodson casillas types for years.
And why I favor a giant front 3 in some downs. To protect your ILB - safety tweeters.
Even in a 3/4 it may be helpful to consider your 3 front players plus the two olbs as a 'front 5' that share certain qualities:
- weight, heavy ish and great athleticism, quickness, speed, and 'want to.' -.-
Whereas your 'back six' (includes your two " ilbs ") require spacial instincts, game awareness, football smarts, speed, speed, speed.quickness and some body Controll and want to. -.-
Maybe it's when we are not clear enough we feel we need all first rounders.
Add 'proven game manager or football knowledgeable PhD type or......
... 3 years of leading tackle overall number stats'
to the 'front five' list and those are very expensive high picks probably ...failing to meet your requirements - you get Nada.
In a year when the OL picks really do need be 'all that'.
In the Cardinals defense, Collins current position looks more like the moneybacker role than the way they use safeties. They are using safeties much more in coverage and less in the box defending the run.
For team running some 3-4 looks, Turay fits the need for an explosive edge rusher. RU didn’t use him in the best way to take advantage of his skills. Focus on his pass rush skills and I’ll think you’ll be impressed.
Yup I am pretty much done on him. He will be a top 75 player on my board. Love the initial movement and ability to bend/turn. Doesn't carry a ton of power wit blockers but he can deliver a blow to ball carriers. Issues with him, as I am sure you know, inconsistency/injuries/intelligence.
Reminds me of Lorenzo Mauldin (NYJ)
Today he is an athletic 320lbs. ..big,big change.
And the pass gets out quick like very often in today's game as well. For those assignment s
Yea your right when I hear this 3/4 stuff I get excited brings back memories of LT and company .......never forget when they asked Joe Bugel or Thiesman in the NFL films clip “ What makes the Giants defense so good “
and he answered “well they have 4 to 6 linebackers in the 250 lb range and they can run like the dickens “.............
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St what about the Iowa Lb? #43?? He was excellent vs. PENN State.
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...I think they are going to look for a speed linebacker (possibly Collins fits in to that role)...
What is a speed LBer? A good coverage guy? That's not Collins strong point. If Collins moves from SS to LB, now we need a good SS.
Does a safety's role change when you go from 4-3 to 3-4?
Thanks.
For a LB, Collins would be considered fast/speedy.
I wonder if they will see Collins as a Buchanon type...not sure I think Collins is that good to be honest, but they might see him as that kind of guy.
He hasn’t played a lot of ball. Only 1 year of HS. Really only 2 in college (because of shoulder injuries). This year he played the run a lot better especially against some of the big guys in B10. He definitely got stronger. Still some bonehead plays but the pass rush is NFL legit. As you said, “initial movement” is outstanding and he can really bend around a corner.
I’m hoping round 3 for NYG but he should rip up the combine so he probably won’t be there.
Then there is "$LB" Bucannon. He is about the same size as Collins. I've never seen Bucannon play, so I can't comment on how much different he is compared to Collins. But Collins is a heat seeking missile near the LOS. If I'm Bettcher, I want to do what I can to get Collins down near the LOS more often and less often playing deep safety.
That brings me to the secondary. The Cardinals drafted Budda Baker in 2017 (see link). I don't know how Bettcher used him. It sounds like Baker is a free safety type (smaller, quicker/faster than SS), that can slide down and cover the slot WR or play center field. The Giants don't currently have one of those. I don't know how much Bettcher played single high, but you really need a center fielder to lower the risk of playing that. I have read Bettcher plays about a 50-50 mix of man and zone coverages. I assume he plays a lot of man with two deep zone. They really need help at safety. The BBI police will surely correct me, but a trade down scenario where the Giants draft Minkah Fitzpatrick would give Bettcher a lot of flexibility. I don't think it happens. But, it is a possible scenario no matter how far fetched. The Giants are probably OK at corner for next year.
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Collins would be a perfect fit in the $LB role. A lot of people complain about moving an all-pro S to LB. I don't really look at it like that. I look at it as putting your best 11 on the field, and putting guys in a position to play to their strengths. Collins will still line up at safety some, but in this defense I'd like to see him be a jack-of-all trades type.
On Fitzpatrick- he would be an excellent fit in this defense. They say he is a larger version of the Honey Badger. But- can the Giants really afford to pass on a franchise QB to take a DB? They do say defense wins championships, and Fitzpatrick could be considered for BPA, but I have a hard time seeing him at #2. In a trade down to #5 or #6, he is one of the best case scenarios for that pick. Having him and Collins anchoring that secondary in Bettchers scheme is an exciting proposition. He's even a NJ guy- I remember Parcells always liked to bring in the NJ guys because he said they were tougher and more blue-collar than the guys from states out west such as California.
From Boylhart...
Quote:
Harrison is one of the top defensive linemen in this draft because he can play multiple positions in multiple style fronts in any style of defense. He can play on the nose in a 3/4 defense because of his quick feet and strength. He can also play outside in a 3/4 defense because of his quick feet, strength and ability to get into the back field quickly. He can play as a defensive tackle over the left guard in a 4/3 defense because of his high football IQ. He can play in a 1gap attack defense or in a 2 gap run stuffing defense. His quick feet make it possible for him to be able to play more than one position getting into the back field quickly and his size, strength and lateral agility make it easy for him to play in a 2 gap scheme and stuff the run.
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Quoting Boylhart is the old-school version of linking out to 247 Sports.
I don't know, I think maybe what we really mean is 'defend the pass.'
Snacks is not a problem either way, but I like DT better as a DT than as a 3-4 DE. I like JPP better as a 4-3 LDE, and Vernon as a 4-3 RDE.
I suppose, that as usual, we did not hire a brilliant DC who can design to what you actually have.