I'm of the opinion that the Giants aren't going to improve the OL and change the culture in the locker room without getting rid of Flowers (and if he can take his $2.4M guaranteed salary with him, all the better). It's based on my belief that he has a bad attitude and doesn't buy into the team concept. On top of that, I don't see him as ever being what you want at left tackle and I question his ability to transition to another position given all the technique issues which have dogged him since his college days. All that being said, I don't know the guy and it's not like my opinion is based on a mountain of information. So I could be wrong!!!
Now that my disclaimer is out of the way, historically speaking, first round disappointments at OL have commanded 5th or 6th round picks in return. I'd be happy with a conditional 7th round pick in 2019 or 2020, so getting anything for him in 2018 would be like the cherry on top of the whip cream on top of the ice cream.
| Rams sent Greg Robinson to the Lions in June 2017 in exchange for a 6th-round pick in 2018 NFL Draft |
| Browns sent Cam Erving to Chiefs in August 2017 in exchange for a 5th-round pick in 2018 NFL Draft |
| Lions sent Lake Tomlinson to 49ers in August 2017 in exchange for a 5th-round pick in 2019 NFL Draft |
| Bears sent Gabe Carimi to Buccaneers in June 2013 in exchange for a 6th-round pick in 2014 NFL Draft |
NJ.com: What is Flowers worth in trade? - (
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I could see him as as a pretty good Right Guard. I think free agency will bring in a new LG ( Norwell ) and new RT ( Fleming ) Jones at Center. 2nd round pick will hopefully be an OT maybe Tyrell Crosby or RG Will Hernandez, get a center in round 4 in Mason Cole. Maybe Bozeman in round 5.
There is a good chance this O Line is drastically improved this offseason.
Here are some Eli Manning quotes from late November 2017.
How does Flowers feel about Flowers? Tough to tell. He rarely grants interviews — he offered a polite “no comment” on Tuesday — and chooses to do any of his communicating by virtue of his play.
Manning manages to get through to Flowers, though, which is really all that matters.
Manning has been sacked 22 times this season, and Flowers is responsible for four of them, yet none in the last eight games. With the Giants’ offensive line in a frequent state of change because of injuries, Flowers has played every single snap. He’s the only player on offense to do so.
Stop selling that false narrative about his bad attitude the guy is a tough, mean, hard working, slowly improving in this game.
Like I said, this is all just guesswork on my part as I try to read the tea leaves, but actions speak louder than words. If they trade him before the draft it means they are giving him a chance under the new regime. If they trade him after the draft, but before the start of the season, it means they gave him a chance and didn't like what they saw. If he is still on the roster going into the season, it means they still value him.
I'd keep him unless he is the coach killer malcontent some are suggesting. Sadly, we've got much bigger problems at 3 other OL positions; LG, RG and RT.
I'd keep him unless he is the coach killer malcontent some are suggesting. Sadly, we've got much bigger problems at 3 other OL positions; LG, RG and RT.
This exactly. Didnt we already guarantee the rest of his rookie deal too anyways? If we arent going to get much value for him it makes no sense just to get rid of the guy. At least not before we try him at guard. He could become what Leonard Davis or William Roberts becaame when they moved inside. Gallery revitalized his career after moving to Guard to didnt he?
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Didnt we already guarantee the rest of his rookie deal too anyways?
If they trade him, his new team is responsible for his guaranteed salary. And the Giants can't trade him until the start of the NFL year (March 14th, I think).
Youre making my point. Teams are not going to give us a good enough return for a player who has underachieved and has a sizeable remaining salary to pay.
He improved quite a bit last year and at the very least I think he can possibly be a very good G. I dont even know if I would take even a 3rd rounder for him. He still has value imho.
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Didnt we already guarantee the rest of his rookie deal too anyways?
If they trade him, his new team is responsible for his guaranteed salary. And the Giants can't trade him until the start of the NFL year (March 14th, I think).
His cap hit is only 4.5 for '18...he has missed only 2 games in 2 years also. No reason to rush him out the door
His cap hit is only 4.5 for '18...he has missed only 2 games in 2 years also. No reason to rush him out the door
The expectations on him were set by where he was drafted. If he were a 4th round player who sat and learned for a year, we would likely be focused on his upside instead of his downside.
I suspect that his time with the Giants is not at an end. Whether he gets moved inside, to the right or simply gets paired with a guard who can really play, I suspect he still has value to the team when you get away from the emotion of where he was drafted.
Seems like a bad reason to trade a high first round pick at a position of need before the Giants find out how he responds to a new regime and or position.
Anything short of doing both 1 & 2 above (again) would be gross negligence on behalf of this front office and coaching staff...
The rot at the top w the GM and HC doesn’t help you get players either. They aren’t getting shit back for him. May as will let him for the first time ever battle for the LT job w Wheeler or at RT. May wake him up and make him better. If he folds cut him.
He wasnt the worst OL on the team last year. Maybe not even the 2nd worst. That’s the worst part
He's slowly improved from an overwhelmed young player to a league average tackle, with the support of his quarterback.
He played so much better down the stretch last year, and the refusal for some to see that is telling.
The rot at the top w the GM and HC doesn’t help you get players either. They aren’t getting shit back for him. May as will let him for the first time ever battle for the LT job w Wheeler or at RT. May wake him up and make him better. If he folds cut him.
He wasnt the worst OL on the team last year. Maybe not even the 2nd worst. That’s the worst part
He got better when they cut Hart? Wasn’t that week 17?
He's slowly improved from an overwhelmed young player to a league average tackle, with the support of his quarterback.
He played so much better down the stretch last year, and the refusal for some to see that is telling.
The problem is you don’t pick a LT ninth overall and be happy he’s an average starter after 3 years.
I’m fine with keeping him around for now and see if he develops. At some point you’re going to need an upgrade if he doesn’t though. Plenty of holes to fill on this roster which we can’t address all in one off season so I’m fine with him for now.
Flowers is not average. He doesn't run block well, he clearly doesn't pass block with any consistency or confidence. He continues to regress to god-awful habits the moment we have a 3rd & long and he has to hold up for more than 1 second. And whether it matters or not, there are enough reports questioning his coachibility and being a good teammate.
Overstating what PFF says he gave up in sacks/hits is folly as you know Eli throws the ball to his 3 yard option the second he gets pressure.
In the end, Flowers basically has shown really just toughness.
But he is clearly a hinderance in this Offense improving absent a position change or raising up his game due to someone getting thru to him and/or competition.
Once they decide that a player "sucks" their opinion will never change, no matter how the player improves, and yes Flowers showed improvement last season.
He was starting from zero, had nowhere to go but up, but he DID improve enough to give him a look elsewhere as He is a big, tough SOB, he is young. There is no downside to bringing him to camp, but he shouldn't be a LT.
It was hilarious watching you supposed geniuses analyze his performances. He had a couple decent games last year, but you were too dumb, blind, and stubborn to notice.
He will likely get a shot at RT, but I don't think he will be handed the job.
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The obsession Flowers sucks is funny.
He's slowly improved from an overwhelmed young player to a league average tackle, with the support of his quarterback.
He played so much better down the stretch last year, and the refusal for some to see that is telling.
The problem is you don’t pick a LT ninth overall and be happy he’s an average starter after 3 years.
At some point the team and GM analyze the player on his play not on his draft status.
He'd have to show a lot of problems to the new GM both on and off the field to be cut or traded for nothing.
The draft pick is a sunk cost at this point. The reality is how likely is the team to get league average play at LT for 4.5M in 2018? Pretty low.
Why invest to replace a good enough player, when there are 2-3 gaping holes on the line.
If it doesn't work out then he's gone and won't be worth more than an UDFA.
There would be no point in keeping him on the roster no matter where he was picked.
Wheeler and Flowers cannot be the options at LT next year. I don’t care how they do it, but they need to find someone that can actually play the position. Flowers needs to play guard.
He's slowly improved from an overwhelmed young player to a league average tackle, with the support of his quarterback.
He played so much better down the stretch last year, and the refusal for some to see that is telling.
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The obsession Flowers sucks is funny.
He's slowly improved from an overwhelmed young player to a league average tackle, with the support of his quarterback.
He played so much better down the stretch last year, and the refusal for some to see that is telling.
cool story bro. Three year starter slowly improves is not a great story even if true which it isn’t. He came in with technique and footwork deficiencies and he still has them. Maybe at his rate of improvement he will reach “average” by the time he is 30.
Heavy hitting analysis as always Gene.
Tell me, who are the 16 markedly better left tackles in the NFL?
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Additionally there is no cap benefit to making the move. It would be far better in my opinion to move him to RT where he can play beside a stud RG such as a Norwell/Nelson etc and Rhett Ellison. There is no doubt that Flowers has the physical tools.
Lets see how the new coaching staff and a power run game (better suited to Flowers skillset) changes things.
Flowers is still a young kid, he turns 24 in April. We all knew he was raw coming out of college. I still think Flowers has a lot of upside and can be a solid starter.
Shurmur's offense with a power run game and higher run/pass ratio will play to Flowers' strengths better.
I don't think Flowers is a LT, but he could be effective at RT or either guard spot. It could be a case of putting Flowers in the best position for him to succeed rather than as a stop gap in our biggest position of need
I don't think there is an attitude issue for Flowers, from all reports his work ethic and motivation is fine.
Even if Flowers isn't starting due to being beaten out in camp, he still has value as a swing tackle and possible blocking TE. We won't get anything of substance by cutting or trading Flowers.
We shouldn't forget that Flowers could be in a contract year, I wouldn't be surprised if he steps it up considerably in 2018.
Flowers is still a young kid, he turns 24 in April. We all knew he was raw coming out of college. I still think Flowers has a lot of upside and can be a solid starter.
Shurmur's offense with a power run game and higher run/pass ratio will play to Flowers' strengths better.
I don't think Flowers is a LT, but he could be effective at RT or either guard spot. It could be a case of putting Flowers in the best position for him to succeed rather than as a stop gap in our biggest position of need
I don't think there is an attitude issue for Flowers, from all reports his work ethic and motivation is fine.
Even if Flowers isn't starting due to being beaten out in camp, he still has value as a swing tackle and possible blocking TE. We won't get anything of substance by cutting or trading Flowers.
We shouldn't forget that Flowers could be in a contract year, I wouldn't be surprised if he steps it up considerably in 2018.
I am not a fan of the guy BUT the one thing that we cannot deny is that he has worked extremely hard (did not help) and he has kept his mouth shut. He did not point fingers, he did not complain, he is not on twitter... nothing. All I hear is that the guy is the first in the facility and last out... along with the other guys who are first in and last out.
This is some of what found (I guess it comes down to what you want to believe and what you want to dismiss)...
Fortunately for Flowers, rookie struggles on the offensive line don't always equate to long-term problems. And Flaherty is now in San Francisco. He was not brought back as part of the coaching staff under Ben McAdoo.
New line coach Mike Solari is believed to be more flexible. The hope is the new approach benefits Flowers so he can bounce back in a similar fashion to Matthews last year.
Hart was kicked to the curb by new general manager Dave Gettleman for his actions, and Flowers was spared due to his first-round value. But recent reports have detailed Flowers' distance from the team, and his lack of motivation to be a genuine teammate.
Former Giant Geoff Schwartz expressed his displeasure in regard to Hart and Flowers: "Clearing out locker room cancers. Made it easy for him when Hart came into the facility this week and told the staff he wasn’t playing this week. Nice try. Hopefully Gettleman continues to rid that OL room of guys who bring it down."
An interesting point to mention is that both lineman had locker rooms far away from the offensive line section, choosing to house their personal belongings near the wide receivers.
Flowers: “Hey, get out my face man. Don’t come over here.”
When Raanan didn’t move, Flowers moved his face close to the reporter’s and asked, “You hear me?”
Raanan: “I’m just trying to do my job.”
Flowers: “Go over there.”
Raanan: “I’m just trying to do my job.”
Flowers: “Get the (expletive) out of my face, bro.
Raanan: “I’m just trying to do my job.”
Flowers then said, “Go over there, man,” as he shoved Raanan.
2) Given the history you outline, the pick they would limely get in return is not likely to have an i.pact on this year or beyond. So, why bother?
3) I absolutley get the criticism of the output on the field. But, I don't get the comments about not buying the team concept and (not here but in other posts) about his aork ethic. From day one we've actually read about him doing a lot of filmwork and work on the field. Nust because it hasn't translated to great results, doesn't mean he didn't work. In fact, he did improve this year, which when looking at the end result, is sad. I also don't think it is fair to comment on a selfish attitude when he has played hurt and has pretty much said all the right things.
Him not doing secret Santa shouldn’t and won’t effect his roster spot. Can’t believe I even typed that.
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How about we give the new staff a chance to see what they can do. There will be a new coaching staff, new game plan, and new blocking schemes. EF may respond to all these new variables.
Like I said, this is all just guesswork on my part as I try to read the tea leaves, but actions speak louder than words. If they trade him before the draft it means they are giving him a chance under the new regime. If they trade him after the draft, but before the start of the season, it means they gave him a chance and didn't like what they saw. If he is still on the roster going into the season, it means they still value him.
The actions that you're referencing are that he didn't participate in Secret Santa. That's it. And with regards to the last game of the season, you'd prefer to believe that the coach was lying about Flowers being injured rather than consider that the beat writers, who have been wrong about absolutely everything recently, might have been wrong about this, too. Or that Jordan Ranaan, with whom the Flowers "checked out" narrative originated, might have had an axe to grind, since it was he that Flowers pushed in the locker room last season.
You're absolutely impossible once you get a particular thought in your mind, veracity be damned.
You couldn't identify one of the best (and most recognizable) OL of recent Giants history. Maybe you're not the best person to determine who's better or worse than Flowers.
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We're talking about the 22nd highest paid LT in the league - at worst he's a swing back-up for a year if 4 guys outplay him and he can't crack lineup at guard or tackle.
If you cut him and eat 2M, and if the market for a fringe tackle is the same as last year (Fluker, 3M), you aren't making out.
He clearly has deficiencies with his technique, virtually every commentator points it out. He'd have to have greatly improve to warrant longterm investment and high dollars.
But for a guy who gave up 6 sacks (3 in 1 awful game), who's not making prohibitive money, and had some really nice stretches last year, I don't see the Giants giving him up for nothing.
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You couldn't identify one of the best (and most recognizable) OL of recent Giants history. Maybe you're not the best person to determine who's better or worse than Flowers.
GD - how do you type on threads with your hands typically busy playing with yourself while staring at images of former Giant players?
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In comment 13835677 Jimmy Googs said:
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You couldn't identify one of the best (and most recognizable) OL of recent Giants history. Maybe you're not the best person to determine who's better or worse than Flowers.
GD - how do you type on threads with your hands typically busy playing with yourself while staring at images of former Giant players?
Aww, that's cute.
For everyone else's edification - I posted a picture of Rich Seubert in response to Jimmy's complaints about the Giants never seeming to find a good lineman as an UDFA, and he thought it was Brett Jones. So now he's trying to claim that it's odd for a Giants fan to recognize Seubert.
What say you, BBI?
I think he can be a solid guard. We made a horrible decision taking him so high and thinking he could play left tackle when everyone who knows the game said he was not a left tackle.
He might not make it through final cuts -- which the staff and GM have every right obviously to make that decision.
But with a new staff and new linemates, it's prudent for the staff to see what they have in him, see if they can get him coached up physically and mentally.
It's not necessarily optimism, it's just being practical.
For what it's worth, he sounds like a total asshole. And that more than his average play is his biggest issue.
After 3 seasons, the wait is over.....he is what he is...