The Giants tackling this year was God-Awful. It wasn't as much the DL fault as it was lousy, lousy, no-talent LB play. There is no way they should go into the season with so little talent at the LB position unless they don't sign Eli and just pack it in.
Recently I've read that the Giants most pressing need is OLB. In my view no way. It is ILB. IMO they should focus on top priority of getting an ILB that can flat out play all over the field, is talented, and can tackle. Am I wrong to believe ILB is the top priority for this team not only of ILB vs OLB but overall vs all current positions on defense? Which do you think more important? A top tier ILB or OLB?
So that being the case, the Giants should look for a solid experienced player to help support the DLine. So I think the top target in FA should be Avery Williamson. IMO this guy is a "must get" - ofc "within reason."
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Then depending on if Giants expect to be a playoff team this year or better or in rebuild mode it how they should address the OLB situation. If it is to win now, get an OLB in FA agency too such as Mingo. He's a pretty good cover OLB.
As far as OLB, it will depend on how they see Okwara and Moss fitting in.
Vernon will be a OLB for sure and I personally see JPP staying at LDE, Snacks at the NT position and Tomlinson as the RDE. Goodson will be one of the ILB.
Depth along the line will be important to fortify.
I also like Attachou
As far as OLB, it will depend on how they see Okwara and Moss fitting in.
Vernon will be a OLB for sure and I personally see JPP staying at LDE, Snacks at the NT position and Tomlinson as the RDE. Goodson will be one of the ILB.
Depth along the line will be important to fortify.
Would love Bradham.
I hope Defense doesn't go to a 3-4.
Our best / most consistent performances were the DT's. Now we can only play 1 of them?
And our worst position was Linebacker. So now we're looking for 4?
I don't think Oliver can be that effective as an OLB. too slow.
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I agree that ILB is a priority. Nigel Bradham should be the top target. Anthony Hitchens, Preston Brown, Tahir Whitehead are all good players.
As far as OLB, it will depend on how they see Okwara and Moss fitting in.
Vernon will be a OLB for sure and I personally see JPP staying at LDE, Snacks at the NT position and Tomlinson as the RDE. Goodson will be one of the ILB.
Depth along the line will be important to fortify.
Would love Bradham.
I hope Defense doesn't go to a 3-4.
Our best / most consistent performances were the DT's. Now we can only play 1 of them?
And our worst position was Linebacker. So now we're looking for 4?
I don't think Oliver can be that effective as an OLB. too slow.
Vernon had his most effective season in 2015, where he graded out as the #2 edge rusher in all of football. That was the season where he lined up mostly as a standup OLB (49 percent of the time in a 2 point stance).In the rest of his career, he has only played 22 percent of his snaps in a 2 point stance.
In 2015, his breakdown of pass rushes/pressures
From a 3-point stance- 239 pass rushes, 28 pressures.
From a 2-point stance- 301 pass rushes, 53 pressures.
In 2016, he graded out as a top 25 LB in all of football.
Good run defender- had the 2nd highest run stop percentage among FA lb's in 2017.
Is a free agent, only 27 years old, played for Bettcher.
Karlos Dansby is 37 years old, but has also played under Bettcher and is a FA. He could be a stop gap solution. Still a pretty effective player despite his age. Gettleman showed that he is willing to bring in Veterans. Signed a 37 year old Julius Peppers last offseason, and a 36 year old Mike Adams to play safety for the Panthers. Maybe Dansby could be a nice veteran presence in a locker room that has been lacking leadership.
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In comment 13835433 Rjanyg said:
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I agree that ILB is a priority. Nigel Bradham should be the top target. Anthony Hitchens, Preston Brown, Tahir Whitehead are all good players.
As far as OLB, it will depend on how they see Okwara and Moss fitting in.
Vernon will be a OLB for sure and I personally see JPP staying at LDE, Snacks at the NT position and Tomlinson as the RDE. Goodson will be one of the ILB.
Depth along the line will be important to fortify.
Would love Bradham.
I hope Defense doesn't go to a 3-4.
Our best / most consistent performances were the DT's. Now we can only play 1 of them?
And our worst position was Linebacker. So now we're looking for 4?
I don't think Oliver can be that effective as an OLB. too slow.
Vernon had his most effective season in 2015, where he graded out as the #2 edge rusher in all of football. That was the season where he lined up mostly as a standup OLB (49 percent of the time in a 2 point stance).In the rest of his career, he has only played 22 percent of his snaps in a 2 point stance.
In 2015, his breakdown of pass rushes/pressures
From a 3-point stance- 239 pass rushes, 28 pressures.
From a 2-point stance- 301 pass rushes, 53 pressures.
2015 will be 3 years ago staring next season. In 2017 he doesn't look like any OLB injury notwithstanding. Lineman don;t get quicker after a certain time.
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I agree that ILB is a priority. Nigel Bradham should be the top target. Anthony Hitchens, Preston Brown, Tahir Whitehead are all good players.
As far as OLB, it will depend on how they see Okwara and Moss fitting in.
Vernon will be a OLB for sure and I personally see JPP staying at LDE, Snacks at the NT position and Tomlinson as the RDE. Goodson will be one of the ILB.
Depth along the line will be important to fortify.
Would love Bradham.
I hope Defense doesn't go to a 3-4.
Our best / most consistent performances were the DT's. Now we can only play 1 of them?
And our worst position was Linebacker. So now we're looking for 4?
I don't think Oliver can be that effective as an OLB. too slow.
Who has worn the green dot in Bettcher’s 3-4? One of the ILB’s or maybe a safety?
with regards to JPP it may depend on down. Or may start any given down at lb to approach a line interior gap or technique.... Etc.
As far as OLB, it will depend on how they see Okwara and Moss fitting in.
Vernon will be a OLB for sure and I personally see JPP staying at LDE, Snacks at the NT position and Tomlinson as the RDE. Goodson will be one of the ILB.
Depth along the line will be important to fortify.
Avery Moss is not a 3/4 player according to Spagnuolo he is the perfect 4/3DE
I also like Attachou
And both of these players are JAGs, no thanks.
ILB Demario Davis
ILB Avery Williamson
OLB Nigel Bradham
OLB Dee Ford
OLB Aaron Lynch
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I agree that ILB is a priority. Nigel Bradham should be the top target. Anthony Hitchens, Preston Brown, Tahir Whitehead are all good players.
As far as OLB, it will depend on how they see Okwara and Moss fitting in.
Vernon will be a OLB for sure and I personally see JPP staying at LDE, Snacks at the NT position and Tomlinson as the RDE. Goodson will be one of the ILB.
Depth along the line will be important to fortify.
Avery Moss is not a 3/4 player according to Spagnuolo he is the perfect 4/3DE
I agree.
A 3/4 linebacker is generally more of a 2 way defensive player. To even consider Oliver as a player to not rush the passer would be mind-numbingly silly.
The last thing the Giants should want to do is limit Oliver's. That's what the Giants are tell us if they do a 3-4.Otherwise why not play a 4-3? Sure most of the time he'll be a rusher. But he's the best rusher on the team. And he's not that quick or fast. He is not what he was in 2015. Anyhow just the idea of considering him to slip back into pass coverage other than an extremely rare play is silly.
https://footballtoolbox.net/flexibility-of-the-3-4-defense
"Typically, there are two major variations of the 3–4 defense. Both variations are directly related to coverage schemes on obvious passing downs. For the first type, the outside linebackers (inverts or over hang players) will rush the quarterback, the great majority of the time. On key situations, the rush linebacker will be sent to cover the flat on the opposite side of the blitzing defensive back; this is known as a “zone blitz”. This scheme requires outside linebackers to have the ability to back pedal and drop into coverage, of course they do rush the passer at times, it is just that they are much more likely to drop into coverage."
A 3/4 linebacker is generally more of a 2 way defensive player. To even consider Oliver as a player to not rush the passer would be mind-numbingly silly.
The last thing the Giants should want to do is limit Oliver's. That's what the Giants are tell us if they do a 3-4.Otherwise why not play a 4-3? Sure most of the time he'll be a rusher. But he's the best rusher on the team. And he's not that quick or fast. He is not what he was in 2015. Anyhow just the idea of considering him to slip back into pass coverage other than an extremely rare play is silly.
https://footballtoolbox.net/flexibility-of-the-3-4-defense
"Typically, there are two major variations of the 3–4 defense. Both variations are directly related to coverage schemes on obvious passing downs. For the first type, the outside linebackers (inverts or over hang players) will rush the quarterback, the great majority of the time. On key situations, the rush linebacker will be sent to cover the flat on the opposite side of the blitzing defensive back; this is known as a “zone blitz”. This scheme requires outside linebackers to have the ability to back pedal and drop into coverage, of course they do rush the passer at times, it is just that they are much more likely to drop into coverage."
How is this silly? Was DE Chandler Jones wasted as a OLB? He had 17 sacks last season in that role which lead the NFL. We have seen players like Mario Williams thrive at OLB in a 3-4 when there were concerns on whether or not they were good fits there. Jason Taylor, Tambi Hali, Ryan Kerrigan, Connor Barwin, Pernell McPhee, Dee Ford, Robert Quinn, Whitney Mercilus, Terrell Suggs, Jadaveon Clowney, etc how all thrived after playing 3-4 OLB. I expect Vernon to have his best season as a Giant under Bettcher.
May even need three.
May even need three.
Agreed, my preference would be to sign Trent Murphy and Demario Davis in FA and then draft either Uchenna Nwosu, Jerome Baker, or Ogbonnia Okoronkwo in round 3.
It's sill because you want him rushing the passer 99.9% of the time.
He is not that quick or that fast for an OLB. I suppose if he can lose weight or if I'm dead wrong about his quickness.
Would you say if he isn't quick enough or fast enough then it would be a bad move?
It's sill because you want him rushing the passer 99.9% of the time.
He is not that quick or that fast for an OLB. I suppose if he can lose weight or if I'm dead wrong about his quickness.
Would you say if he isn't quick enough or fast enough then it would be a bad move?
He has experience in the 3-4 defense and he will be rushing the majority of the time. He will just be moved around a lot more now. He is quicker than many of the OLB's I listed above. The player I am most concerned about is JPP. I think he is best suited as a 3-4 DE now but I don't know if he will put in the effort or would be willing to do the dirty work that is required.
If the 3 can't and need solid ILBs to stop the run, or else the O runs all day and plays keep away from our O, you'll need solid ILB.
What do we have now in Dennard, if re-signed, or Goodson, that would need complementary acquisitions?
Feel free to correct my thinking on this.
Just like OL +, this is a 2 offseason rebuild.
And just like OL, I think they go 1 FA, 1 draft pick for LB, each of the next 2 years; unless this draft finds 2 guys for one of those positions.
Besides our last 2 Super Bowls show we really can win it all with average LBs at best.
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It's sill because you want him rushing the passer 99.9% of the time.
He is not that quick or that fast for an OLB. I suppose if he can lose weight or if I'm dead wrong about his quickness.
Would you say if he isn't quick enough or fast enough then it would be a bad move?
He has experience in the 3-4 defense and he will be rushing the majority of the time. He will just be moved around a lot more now. He is quicker than many of the OLB's I listed above. The player I am most concerned about is JPP. I think he is best suited as a 3-4 DE now but I don't know if he will put in the effort or would be willing to do the dirty work that is required.
He is 3 years older now. And been a bit banged up. I don't think experience will trump the athleticism required.
Moving him around vs solid teams won't matter much. Good teams will pick him up. Further, if he's not as as quick or as fats as I think, what's the difference if you move him around?
As far as JPP. I couldn't disagree more in terms of him vs Dalvin Tomlinson. Now you put Dalvin behind Snacks while JPP gets more playing time. Dalvin played better than JPP and I share the very concerns you cite for JPP.
So the team is going to play JPP more than the guy who outplayed him last year. That's hat makes of all this so silly. T Reducing Tomlinson's playing time si not a god answer.
As far as JPP. I couldn't disagree more in terms of him vs Dalvin Tomlinson. Now you put Dalvin behind Snacks while JPP gets more playing time. Dalvin played better than JPP and I share the very concerns you cite for JPP.
So the team is going to play JPP more than the guy who outplayed him last year. That's hat makes of all this so silly. T Reducing Tomlinson's playing time si not a god answer.
I never suggested limiting Tomlinson's playing time. He would be the other 3-4 DE opposite JPP. Tomlinson played both NT and DE at Alabama. The point of moving around players like Vernon is to look for mismatches. There will be times where a TE or RB will have to pick up Vernon which is a clear mismatch. Bettcher is going to build the defense around his players strength's. He isn't going to have Vernon drop back and cover Zach Ertz or Jason Witten.
I also like Attachou
Yeah, those are two guys to keep an eye on. Mingo too.
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Because he played for Bettcher
I also like Attachou
And both of these players are JAGs, no thanks.
They’ve flashed on occasion and would come cheap.
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In comment 13835696 Jay on the Island said:
As far as JPP. I couldn't disagree more in terms of him vs Dalvin Tomlinson. Now you put Dalvin behind Snacks while JPP gets more playing time. Dalvin played better than JPP and I share the very concerns you cite for JPP.
So the team is going to play JPP more than the guy who outplayed him last year. That's hat makes of all this so silly. T Reducing Tomlinson's playing time si not a god answer.
I never suggested limiting Tomlinson's playing time. He would be the other 3-4 DE opposite JPP. Tomlinson played both NT and DE at Alabama. The point of moving around players like Vernon is to look for mismatches. There will be times where a TE or RB will have to pick up Vernon which is a clear mismatch. Bettcher is going to build the defense around his players strength's. He isn't going to have Vernon drop back and cover Zach Ertz or Jason Witten.
I never thought of Tomlinson at an end position. He's slow. A fien Tackle. Though in the 3/4 he cna be a space eater I suppose. Though what he does at Alabama as far an an end imo is not relevant what he is in the pros. He's a Tackle which I suppose can possibly be an end in a 3-4. I guess we'll see.
I just think all the y would need to do is draft a DE this year to potentially split time with JPP and everything would be fine.
Let me ask you this: How many good (quality) linebackers do the giants need to pick up in free agency considering if they take a QB in Rd 1 and and OLineman in line 2? The Linebackers are most important (other than the NT) in a 3-4 aren't they?
Let me ask you this: How many good (quality) linebackers do the giants need to pick up in free agency considering if they take a QB in Rd 1 and and OLineman in line 2? The Linebackers are most important (other than the NT) in a 3-4 aren't they?
Take a look around the NFL at the 3-4 teams. Most have players with similar skill sets to Tomlinson starting at DE. Look at the Steelers with Tuitt, Cards with Rucker, Ravens with Williams and Urban, Bears with Unrein, Broncos with Gotsis, etc. My point is Tomlinson is scheme diverse and he should be a damn good DE in Bettcher's scheme.
As for the LB position I believe the Giants need to add several players. I think the Giants are set at one OLB spot with Vernon. Goodson should be a very good ILB in Bettcher's scheme but he has to prove that he can stay healthy. Kennard should be re-signed as he could play both ILB and OLB in the 3-4. He isn't a star player but he is a solid option especially inside. The Giants need to add at least one ILB and two OLB's either in FA or the draft.
Ideally they will sign a cheap ILB option like Demario Davis to provide depth inside along with a more expensive option like Trent Murphy or Dee Ford. In the draft there are a few solid options to add in rounds 3-4.
I wouldn't count out Avery Moss. The Giants can't depend on him but he might end up being one of the surprises of the season. He could battle with Okwara and a likely draft pick for playing time.
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Let me ask you this: How many good (quality) linebackers do the giants need to pick up in free agency considering if they take a QB in Rd 1 and and OLineman in line 2? The Linebackers are most important (other than the NT) in a 3-4 aren't they?
Take a look around the NFL at the 3-4 teams. Most have players with similar skill sets to Tomlinson starting at DE. Look at the Steelers with Tuitt, Cards with Rucker, Ravens with Williams and Urban, Bears with Unrein, Broncos with Gotsis, etc. My point is Tomlinson is scheme diverse and he should be a damn good DE in Bettcher's scheme.
As for the LB position I believe the Giants need to add several players. I think the Giants are set at one OLB spot with Vernon. Goodson should be a very good ILB in Bettcher's scheme but he has to prove that he can stay healthy. Kennard should be re-signed as he could play both ILB and OLB in the 3-4. He isn't a star player but he is a solid option especially inside. The Giants need to add at least one ILB and two OLB's either in FA or the draft.
Ideally they will sign a cheap ILB option like Demario Davis to provide depth inside along with a more expensive option like Trent Murphy or Dee Ford. In the draft there are a few solid options to add in rounds 3-4.
I wouldn't count out Avery Moss. The Giants can't depend on him but he might end up being one of the surprises of the season. He could battle with Okwara and a likely draft pick for playing time.
When I said that about Tomlinson, I was just making a comment that maybe you're right. I tend to believe thought he is too slow to be effective in addition to having Snacks at the NT. But as I said maybe -- I'm acknowledging your suggestion as a potential good one. Not arguing.
As for LB's. My point is-- that they can't go cheap, can they? The weaker the lB core in a 3-4 the 3-4 will not be effective. You're risking two guys that you mention are injury risks and yet they'd be a big part of the core of the defense. I think you could have one questionable LB in a 3-4 -- now we'd have 2. And imo Vernon is too slow.
I see this 3-4 as a potential disaster. When the easier thing could be to get one sold ILB like Williamson - draft one DE and then you can go cheap for both OLB or pick up one decent one and go cheap with a 3rd.