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NFT: Black Panther - SPOILERS thread

NYG27 : 2/19/2018 11:15 am
For those of us who wanted to discuss the film in more depth and not spoil it for anyone on the other Black Panther thread, I have created this spoilers thread. So last chance to leave the thread if you haven't seen the film...




First off, amazing film! Visually it was stunning and excellent story line. All the actors were stellar and a great combination of action scenes and humor throughout the film.

Great showcase of the technology advancements that Wakanda has done, especially with Shuri and all the weapons and engineering designs that she came up with. On that note, I thought the brother\sister relationship with Letitia Wright and Chadwick Boseman was spot on with their sibling rivalry.

Michael B. Jordan gave a lot of depth as the villain Killmonger. Really liked his backstory and his plans to take down Wakanda and the World from within.

When CIA agent Ross was interrogating Klaw, did anyone else have flashback to the Lord of the Ring/Hobbit movies with Bilbo Baggins and Gollum\Smeagol?

So much more I want to discuss about this film but I just wanted to add how awesome where those Battle Rhinos?
Shuri  
Mike from SI : 2/19/2018 11:27 am : link
was the best part of the movie. Which is saying something, because there were a lot of bright spots.

Btw, I feel like Killmonger was "right" in a sense: Oh, you guys had the ability to prevent slavery and the Holocaust and just sat there? I get that T'Challa is trying to remedy that at the end....
Killmonger  
NYG27 : 2/19/2018 11:30 am : link
Mike, I think that's what made him such an interesting villain. Similar to Magneto from the X-Men, you might not agree with his methods but you can understand their reasons on why they do what they do.
I agree on the film  
jvm52106 : 2/19/2018 11:51 am : link
and Kilmonger but what is most interesting is the basic premise that we become the very thing we despise. By allowing your decisions to be fueled by hatred you really become the very thing you hate.

Isolation, which Wakanda preached was in reality creating things and situations that allowed it was trying to hide from. Keeping their resources and knowledge to themselves in actuality created a nightmare situation where the problems of the world came to their doorstep.

Too many people are trying to draw parallels to day's world and specifically the political climate here in the US. The issues with Wakanda were not legal vs illegal immigration it was complete isolation both inwards and outwards of a people and culture. Holding back knowledge, seeing to help others was the big problem. They chose to act like their place was its own world, instead being part of a larger community.
Agreed, GREAT movie  
11 to 89 : 2/19/2018 11:53 am : link
Although I agree that Kilmonger was a great villain, I also think that Michael B. Jordan was somewhat a weak link in terms of acting ability. There were some great performances in that movie, his was not one of them IMHO.
Really?  
ThreePoints : 2/19/2018 12:01 pm : link
I thought he was great as Killmonger. Great performance and probably the best villain in a Marvel movie yet.
Agree that the character and backstory was great.  
11 to 89 : 2/19/2018 12:03 pm : link
His acting just never felt anything more than robotic for me.
Just saw it yesterday  
Ron from Ninerland : 2/19/2018 12:08 pm : link
I went to an IMAX Sunday matinee in Santa Clara, California, a neighborhood of very few African Americans. And yet the IMAX theatre was about 70% full and there was a line out to the street for the regular theatre. Sunday matinees here should be slack periods , especially for a movie thats been out since Thursday night. I believe Black Panther is generating more enthusiasm than any non-Star Wars movie going back as many decades as I can remember.

The movie itself I thought was good, but over hyped. As an MCU movie, I'd say it was average ( which is still better than any DC movie except Wonder Woman ). On the positive side the acting was good and many of the characters were interesting. I particularly liked T'Challa , his Father, and my favorite Shuri. Killmonger was a disappointment . He was a stereotypical angry black man that we've been seeing in the movies going back to the blaxploitation films of the 70's. The other theme of T'Challa's goals of openness and inclusion were interesting, but I didn't think groundbreaking. Besides his best speech came in an after credits Easter egg that a lot of people missed. Also the soundtrack was nothing special.

A down side of this movie, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned it, is that the technical aspects of this movie are not good. The CGI is downright bad, especially in 3D. Instead of filming this movie in sub-tropical Africa, or someplace that could pass for Africa, they filmed it in Georgia with CGI'd mountains in the background, and it shows. They only foreign locale they used was South Korea, which was unnecessary because except for one CGI'd car chase all the scenes are indoors.
Marvel Studios Villains  
NYG27 : 2/19/2018 12:11 pm : link
Killmonger is in my Top 3 of Marvel Studios Villains. Loki is still first. I also thought Michael Keaton's Vulture was great and in my #2 spot. Jordan's Killmonder is 3rd on my list.

Although that's not counting Josh Brolin's Thanos yet.
I thought Jordan over-acted  
Mike from SI : 2/19/2018 12:24 pm : link
in some of the earlier scenes.
Now we’ve seen it all  
ThreePoints : 2/19/2018 12:25 pm : link
The villain is just an angry black guy. Jesus Christ.
Great article about Shuri  
RobCarpenter : 2/19/2018 12:26 pm : link
And what she could mean for females entering STEM fields.
Link - ( New Window )
Great villians have a compelling story  
RobCarpenter : 2/19/2018 12:33 pm : link
Killmoger: trying to use technology to improve the world for oppressed people
Loki: adopted brother trying to prove himself
Vulture: trying to earn a living to support his family

I’m not sure Thanos — who is Marvel’s version of Darkseid — will be compelling in the same way. The ‘rule the universe b/c I’m a God’ isn’t as interesting. But the doomsday scenario does make for the need to have heroes band together, of course.
Thought the movie was great, but I wanted more Andy Serkis  
Ben in Tampa : 2/19/2018 12:45 pm : link
He was a lot of fun to watch, I was a little disappointed when Kilmonger ended up killing him mid way through the movie.
RE: Great villians have a compelling story  
Ron from Ninerland : 2/19/2018 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13836129 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
Killmoger: trying to use technology to improve the world for oppressed people
Loki: adopted brother trying to prove himself
Vulture: trying to earn a living to support his family

I’m not sure Thanos — who is Marvel’s version of Darkseid — will be compelling in the same way. The ‘rule the universe b/c I’m a God’ isn’t as interesting. But the doomsday scenario does make for the need to have heroes band together, of course.
I've always thought that comic book villains because they blame the superhero or the superhero's allies for their woes. This goes back to the earliest DC and Marvel stories. Lex Luthor blames Superman for his baldness. Doctor Doom blames Reed Richards for his disfigurement.

In the case of the villains mentioned here, Vulture thinks he was screwed by Tony Stark and Loki is the unfavored brother. In the case of Killmonger one of his motives is that T'Challa and his father stole his inheritance. I wish they had played that up more and de-emphasized the social commentary.
RE: Michael B. Jordan  
eclipz928 : 2/19/2018 3:15 pm : link
Early on in the movie I thought his acting was a bit over the top like a lot of others here have mentioned. But as the movie and story went on I came to realize that the way he portrayed Killmonger was intentional.

Jordan going above and beyond to amplify several stereotypes was meant to draw a clear distinction between the culture he grew up in versus that of Wakanda, and how it has affected him as a person to have that detachment from his father's homeland.

He wasn't just playing up the "angry black man" angle, but also eliciting the arrogance, abrasiveness, and lack of reverence to foreign cultures that people all over the world have come to associate and attach to ALL American citizens - which was consistent to the repeating theme of disdain that the Wakandan people had for westerners.

Killmonger already has quite a bit of complexities to him, so if any more nuance was added to this character, or if Jordan toned him down, then he likely would not have made much of a villain (for a comic book movie). Even given what was presented his death at the end still felt very tragic, and the pain that T'Challa felt in having to kill him was palpable through screen. So yes, Jordan was a little cartoonish at times but he was effective in providing what was needed for that role.
I think that people are missing the point of Killmonger's role  
rich in DC : 2/19/2018 3:57 pm : link
When we first meet Blank Panther in Captain America- the Winter Soldier, it is clear that he has ZERO interest in Wakanda having any role in the outside world. His sole objective is to capture his father's murderer. When Clint meets Blank Panther at the airport, Clint tries to introduce himself- and Black Panter's response is: "I don't care."

When we meet him again at the start of the movie, the sole reason he leaves Wakanda is to get Klawe. When he learns what his father did to his uncle, his sole question is why they left the boy who becomes Killmonger there.

This again, shows a Wakanda-centric viewpoint. Nothing matters to him outside Wakanda.

When he and Killmonger meet, Killmonger immediately works on challenging all that T'Challa thinks. Killmonger questions why Wakanda has done nothing for "2 Billion people who look like me." When Killmonger claims the throne, he immediately decides to change history and give the weapons needed to not only overthrow the world order, but to kill all who resist.

When T'Challa enters the spirit realm, when he tells his father that he was wrong, the original thought is that he is telling his father that leaving the boy Killmonger was wrong- but as we see soon thereafter, what he was really saying is that the choices that Wakanda made were wrong.

When Blank Panther fights back, his first goal is to stop the weapons from leaving Wakanda- and then stop Killmonger. However, we see that at the end, when Killmonger choses death and the words he chose to tell that to T'Challa impact T'Challa as much as any injury he has suffered.

Without the over-the-top way Killmonger was portrayed or the reasons why Killmonger makes his choices, T'Challa is never presented with a reason to change Wakanda. In a way, Killmonger's overzealousness is what forces T'Challa to make the choice to open Wakanda to the world. T'Challa had been raised, as is repeated throughout the movie, to view "Wakanda, always." It is an exclusionary idea- Wakanda comes first, everyone and everything else, second.

While T'Challa does not renounce that idea, he realizes that Killmonger was not a lone-wolf threat, but is instead the result of the choices Wakanda has made- and that he, as the king, must fix and atone for those mistakes.

I think he sees the danger- that there will be a backlash against Wakanda for inaction over the centuries. There will also be the inevitable negative reaction by the powerful to whom Wakanda will be an immediate threat that they have not prepared for.

That was why I think T'Challa chose his words before the U.N. carefully- he was offering to work together with other nations because threats off-planet are rising, but he also makes clear that if this is going to work, people must trust as one unified people and leave old grudges behind.

He realizes that if people follow Killmonger's example, all will fall. He also realizes that if the powerful resist, Wakanda will have to act accordingly. I believe that is why there was no Tony Stark style grand reveal (I am Iron Man and Iron Man is me) at the speech. Just a offer to the world.
Solid post Rich  
RobCarpenter : 2/19/2018 4:12 pm : link
I’d only add that Nakia is pushing T’Challa in a more gentle way, but it takes Killmonger’s militarism to convince him to change.

I absolutely loved the female leads in this movie. Especially Shuri.
wow  
giantfan2000 : 2/19/2018 4:37 pm : link
great post Rich

this movie was great - still thinking about it even though I saw it thursday

one thing I don't quite understand
at the end Killmonger chooses death rather than imprisonment
but what did he do wrong ?

Killmonger won the ritual fight and was king when he decided to make the decisions about sharing weapons. - totally within his rights as King .

When T'Challa reappears - he says that he never surrendered to challenge .. but you could argue that technically he did lose the challenge

Killmonger wanted to upend tradition of Wakanda not sharing technology -
but T'Challa comes to same conclusion. the only difference is that T'Challa doesn't want to cause revolution in the world.

Nothing Killmonger did in the kingdom warranted a prison sentence.
RE: wow  
NYG27 : 2/19/2018 5:07 pm : link
giantfan2000 said:
Quote:

Nothing Killmonger did in the kingdom warranted a prison sentence.


Killing Zuri would have warranted a prison sentence. Zuri offered up his life in order to save T'Challa's, as he was on the brink of death. Killmonger then decides to kill both Zuri and throw T'Challa off the cliff to his apparent death.

Killing someone outside of the ritual combat would be prison sentence worthy.
Actually, T'Challa was correct  
rich in DC : 2/19/2018 5:18 pm : link
The rules were death or submit.

As T'Challa noted, he did not submit- and clearly was not dead, so the match was not over.

However, this was a weakness in the plot, even though it was necessary to get T'Challa back as king- in the movies, the bad guy never finishes the job.

It was a bit odd that Killmonger, who as the hundreds of kills he has demonstrated, was not afraid of finishing the job. That was too cliche.
After seeing the post credit part on Bucky, I went back and  
PatersonPlank : 2/19/2018 5:31 pm : link
re-watched Capt America, Civil War. I didn't realize at the time the prominent role the Black Panther had in that movie, and completely missed the ending where Bucky is brought there so he could heal. That tied it together.
It was predictable  
RobCarpenter : 2/19/2018 5:36 pm : link
That Killmonger would beat T’Challa only to have him come back. As soon as the fight started I knew T’Challa would lose, a la Bane/Batman in Dark Knight rises, or Clubber Lang/Rocky, or 8 million other hero/villain fights.



Well, we knew T'Challa would come back  
Mike from SI : 2/19/2018 5:48 pm : link
because he's in the trailers for Infinity Wars haha.

I thought a lamer plot point was the mountain clan coming back at the last minute. Very much Gandalf in the Two Towers, the Knights of the Vale with Jon Snow, etc. Overplayed trope.
RE: Well, we knew T'Challa would come back  
eclipz928 : 2/19/2018 6:04 pm : link
In comment 13836432 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
because he's in the trailers for Infinity Wars haha.

I thought a lamer plot point was the mountain clan coming back at the last minute. Very much Gandalf in the Two Towers, the Knights of the Vale with Jon Snow, etc. Overplayed trope.

The moment the Jabari come to TChalla's aid has a little more significance than the the generic calvary coming in at the last minute in that MBaku and the Jabari have hated the other tribes for a very long time - it was a big turning point for them. The movie does a bad job of nailing down that history, especially with all the light banter we got between MBaku and TChalla's crew. But yes, point taken that them coming in at the end to save the day was still pretty predictable
MBaku barking at Ross was awesome  
RobCarpenter : 2/19/2018 7:11 pm : link
.
Saw it yesterday with my daughter  
rebel yell : 2/20/2018 8:35 am : link
and found it to be average at best. Maybe I was expecting a lot more based on all the hype. Predictable plot and a bit slow.
Really Enjoyed It  
Andrew in Austin : 2/20/2018 10:02 am : link
I have it up there with Winter Soldier, GoG2, and the last Thor as one of my favorites. I enjoyed the distinct characters including the villains and the overall plot.

For fans of the movie, there is a cool video breaking down the fight scene in the club in Korea:

Coogler Breaks Down Black Panther South Korea Fight Scene - ( New Window )
That Korean casino scene  
eclipz928 : 2/20/2018 7:20 pm : link
was incredible. Probably the best action sequence in the entire movie, which is saying a lot.
Not to turn this into a fanboy war thread, but Panther is putting up  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/20/2018 7:23 pm : link
astronomical numbers.

$242 million domestic in the first four days. $404m worldwide.

Justice League to date pulled in $224m domestic.
Here you go  
montanagiant : 2/26/2018 12:35 pm : link
It was very good  
Bill L : 2/26/2018 1:32 pm : link
Not my favorite. But I liked it a lot.

I re-watched Civil War last night and it just looked soooo, um, thin in comparison.

I did like Klawe better as the villain as compared to Michael B Jordan, but he that might because he was a comic book villain (I like comic books). More depth to Jordan's character.

I'm on the side that feels the Jabari rescue was contrived. Also, there was no real epiphany there. No reason to not agree immediately, other than the cavalry thing, to help.

What I really felt was contrived (and also insanely predictable), which is sad because it's like one of the main things, T'Challa surviving the fight. It was predictable that he lose and predictable that he win...but that's comic books for you.But I didn't like that he survived (in a sense) because it's an assault to the senses to believe a guy falls off a mountain (and he did make it all the way down to the river) and lives. You don't go into a coma; all your bones become coffee grounds.
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