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GM "scores" 2002-2015...Reese :(

#69 Is Eligible : 2/21/2018 11:52 am
Via Twitter...

@jeff_feyerer

What NFL GMs have been good at drafting?

I looked at data from 2002-15, used the @pfref AV metric, and created the GM Draft Scorecard

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CX9Cd3XFDHoDvqoFXaPVFQyaER0kIWCFB3rJ7HR2JHA/edit#gid=956261950
I'm confused.  
robbieballs2003 : 2/21/2018 11:59 am : link
Quote:
I looked at data from 2002-15, used the @pfref AV metric, and created the GM Draft Scorecard


But you don't know how to use the link box below?
Here  
robbieballs2003 : 2/21/2018 12:00 pm : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
I don t need to read  
joeinpa : 2/21/2018 12:01 pm : link
Anything to know he wasn t very good during that time frame. I watched the games
For those that don't want to click on the link  
NYG27 : 2/21/2018 12:08 pm : link
Reese was ranked 86th out of 90 GM's listed in TOTsurplus (average AV/YR for all players drafted over the average expected AV/YR during same time period for pick and round).

Ted Thompson was ranked first at 42.03 with a total 104 picks in that span.

Jerry Reese was ranked 86th at -25.80 with a total 66 picks in that span.
In Reese we trust  
PaulN : 2/21/2018 12:08 pm : link
Not
More rankings  
NYG27 : 2/21/2018 12:14 pm : link
In the Top 10 you have Thompson, Scot McCloughan, Bill Polian, Ozzie Newsome and our very own Ernie Accorsi.

In the Bottom 5, that Reese was apart of, you had Al Davis, Matt Millen, Vinny Cerrato and Bruce Allen.
Well going by that  
moespree : 2/21/2018 12:15 pm : link
Unless you count Al Davis or Mike Brown as a GM, because of the amount of years and picks, objectively, it is suggesting that Jerry Reese was the worst GM in football over that 13 year span. And he was only GM for 8 of them. And yet they still won two Super Bowls.

My first through on that was the people who argue for Tom Coughlin and Eli Manning for hall of fame really ought to use something like this as evidence.
I'm shocked, SHOCKED!  
Victor in CT : 2/21/2018 12:23 pm : link
.........
Gettleman gets a solid rating there  
adamg : 2/21/2018 12:25 pm : link
Doesn't hurt.
Earnie Accorsi in the Top 10  
njm : 2/21/2018 12:27 pm : link
You'd have never known it reading BBI
RE: Earnie Accorsi in the Top 10  
81_Great_Dane : 2/21/2018 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13838077 njm said:
Quote:
You'd have never known it reading BBI
Exactly. He was quite underrated here.
This is how bad Reece was  
Bruner4329 : 2/21/2018 12:37 pm : link
Even Idzik on the Jets was rated ahead of him. And this guy was run out in less than 2 years.
...  
ColHowPepper : 2/21/2018 12:44 pm : link
where's rfflair when you need him?

Based on this data, it also suggests strongly that Raanan's charge, during the presser announcing TC was going to step down but JR was going to remain, that Reese ranked right at the bottom for success in in the draft (terms of number of productive draftees on the roster over the years) was spot on. Reese arrogantly defied Raanan by stating, yeah, well, show me the numbers.

That January 2016 presser: further clarity in hindsight shows Maras got it wrong both ways
One of the mysteries of Life  
HomerJones45 : 2/21/2018 12:55 pm : link
is how Jerry was able to convince the owners that everyone was to blame but him. Those two are either dumb and dumber or Jerry's charm and persuasive powers make him a candidate for top salesman or political office.
yep. no way no how should Reese have been allowed to remain  
Victor in CT : 2/21/2018 12:57 pm : link
after 2015. Said then and I'll say it again. Set them back another 2 years.
Many of Reese's picks  
mrvax : 2/21/2018 12:58 pm : link
got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.
Jerry Jones #16  
NoPeanutz : 2/21/2018 1:02 pm : link
Little Bill #26
Skeletor knows how to pick em!
RE: Many of Reese's picks  
Victor in CT : 2/21/2018 1:02 pm : link
In comment 13838147 mrvax said:
Quote:
got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.


sorry that's a bs excuse. when it happens consistently, something is wrong in the evaluation process. and qutie a few (Terrell Thomas comes to mind) were drafted knowing they had injury history that Reese ignored for the "upside"
RE: Many of Reese's picks  
Victor in CT : 2/21/2018 1:04 pm : link
In comment 13838147 mrvax said:
Quote:
got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.


and please for God's sake, don't come back with "David Wilson would have been a star" if he didn't get hurt. He would not have.
Ozzie Newsome?  
mack809f : 2/21/2018 1:09 pm : link
That's absurd! If you don't count the team's results, the premise is flawed.
RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/21/2018 1:14 pm : link
In comment 13838160 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13838147 mrvax said:


Quote:


got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.



and please for God's sake, don't come back with "David Wilson would have been a star" if he didn't get hurt. He would not have.


David Wilson was on his way to becoming a star. He had moments. Many forget that when he actually became the full-time starter, and later was injured, was the same time the offensive line completely fell off the map. He certainly had flashes before that though. Including setting the record for All Purpose Yards as a Giant.
RE: RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
Victor in CT : 2/21/2018 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13838176 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13838160 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 13838147 mrvax said:


Quote:


got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.



and please for God's sake, don't come back with "David Wilson would have been a star" if he didn't get hurt. He would not have.



David Wilson was on his way to becoming a star. He had moments. Many forget that when he actually became the full-time starter, and later was injured, was the same time the offensive line completely fell off the map. He certainly had flashes before that though. Including setting the record for All Purpose Yards as a Giant.


NOT! Situational weapon? Yes. Full time starter star? no way. I'll repeat from yesterday:

The "what if David Wilson didn't get hurt" narrative is ridiculous.
Victor in CT : 2/20/2018 1:43 pm : link : reply
He would never have been a full time player. A situational weapon, yes. But he couldn't master the playbook, couldn't block and was too small. And that is not my opinon only but that of his then position coach Jerrold Ingram. Another Reese Gem, with Mitchell Schwartz, Cordy Glenn, Colby Fleener and Janoris Jenkins on the board.
RE: One of the mysteries of Life  
Racer : 2/21/2018 1:24 pm : link
In comment 13838136 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
is how Jerry was able to convince the owners that everyone was to blame but him. Those two are either dumb and dumber or Jerry's charm and persuasive powers make him a candidate for top salesman or political office.


A devotion to loyalty over performance has set this team back from time to time since Wellington's days.

Anywhere else but BBI it would be surprising that somebody with a handle that harkens back to the Johnson administration doesn't see it in those terms.
RE: Well going by that  
chuckydee9 : 2/21/2018 1:26 pm : link
In comment 13838055 moespree said:
Quote:
Unless you count Al Davis or Mike Brown as a GM, because of the amount of years and picks, objectively, it is suggesting that Jerry Reese was the worst GM in football over that 13 year span. And he was only GM for 8 of them. And yet they still won two Super Bowls.

My first through on that was the people who argue for Tom Coughlin and Eli Manning for hall of fame really ought to use something like this as evidence.


Its not just that... Impact of the GM is more long term than a HC and certainly more than a QB.. What I mean by that is that, if someone is a good GM, the results will show in 2-4 years down the line.. not right away.. for QB the results would be instant.. HC would be somewhere in the middle.. as far as I remember, all 22 starters on defense and offense were brought in under Ernie.. hence there is no way JR should get more credit than Ernie.. by 2011 the Team was mostly JR's except our best player that year was Eli and he was brought in while Ernie was the GM.. Ernie deserves some credit for 2011 but much less than JR..
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
chuckydee9 : 2/21/2018 1:30 pm : link
In comment 13838184 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13838176 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


In comment 13838160 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 13838147 mrvax said:


Quote:


got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.



and please for God's sake, don't come back with "David Wilson would have been a star" if he didn't get hurt. He would not have.



David Wilson was on his way to becoming a star. He had moments. Many forget that when he actually became the full-time starter, and later was injured, was the same time the offensive line completely fell off the map. He certainly had flashes before that though. Including setting the record for All Purpose Yards as a Giant.



NOT! Situational weapon? Yes. Full time starter star? no way. I'll repeat from yesterday:

The "what if David Wilson didn't get hurt" narrative is ridiculous.
Victor in CT : 2/20/2018 1:43 pm : link : reply
He would never have been a full time player. A situational weapon, yes. But he couldn't master the playbook, couldn't block and was too small. And that is not my opinon only but that of his then position coach Jerrold Ingram. Another Reese Gem, with Mitchell Schwartz, Cordy Glenn, Colby Fleener and Janoris Jenkins on the board.


According to some at BBI.. he was already better than barry sanders.. just check out all the time he flashed during his short career

BTW he only flashed once.. Saints games..
RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
mrvax : 2/21/2018 1:33 pm : link
In comment 13838160 Victor in CT said:
Quote:

and please for God's sake, don't come back with "David Wilson would have been a star" if he didn't get hurt. He would not have.


Victor, it's pretty obviously you are off the mark as far as player evaluation goes. And no, I was not referring to drafting already injured players. We agree that by taking a previously injured guy, that's a weighted risk.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/21/2018 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13838184 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13838176 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


In comment 13838160 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 13838147 mrvax said:


Quote:


got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.



and please for God's sake, don't come back with "David Wilson would have been a star" if he didn't get hurt. He would not have.



David Wilson was on his way to becoming a star. He had moments. Many forget that when he actually became the full-time starter, and later was injured, was the same time the offensive line completely fell off the map. He certainly had flashes before that though. Including setting the record for All Purpose Yards as a Giant.



NOT! Situational weapon? Yes. Full time starter star? no way. I'll repeat from yesterday:

The "what if David Wilson didn't get hurt" narrative is ridiculous.
Victor in CT : 2/20/2018 1:43 pm : link : reply
He would never have been a full time player. A situational weapon, yes. But he couldn't master the playbook, couldn't block and was too small. And that is not my opinon only but that of his then position coach Jerrold Ingram. Another Reese Gem, with Mitchell Schwartz, Cordy Glenn, Colby Fleener and Janoris Jenkins on the board.


This playbook shit, is completely new to me. That's your added narrative. Fumble issues yes. Issues blocking initially when entering the league as a rookie yes (That's pretty common issue with RBs coming into the NFL). One of the biggest positives on him coming out of college was he lead all backs in yards after contact, so I don't know where you are getting this too small thing.

He played for us for literally 21 total games and besides breaking the NYG all purpose record in his rookie season, had some huge running plays when he was a rookie as well.

We don't know what he could have been, but he certainly wasn't this big bust and terrible player you make him out to be.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
mrvax : 2/21/2018 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13838211 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:

We don't know what he could have been, but he certainly wasn't this big bust and terrible player you make him out to be.


I can't agree more. I was pissed off that he got that neck/spine injury before getting a real chance as the starting RB for a season. Even with that pathetic Oline, Wilson managed a career YPC of 4.4.
Wilson  
giantfan2000 : 2/21/2018 1:54 pm : link
made the pro bowl as Special Teams returner

when was the last time the Giants did that ?
RE: Many of Reese's picks  
map7711 : 2/21/2018 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13838147 mrvax said:
Quote:
got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.


JR is not the only GM who gets injuries on his roster. Injuries usually even out through all teams in a time period. That’s not a good excuse. Injuries happen to all teams.
RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
mrvax : 2/21/2018 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13838245 map7711 said:
Quote:

JR is not the only GM who gets injuries on his roster. Injuries usually even out through all teams in a time period. That’s not a good excuse. Injuries happen to all teams.


Well if you are grading a GM on his draft picks, it seems unfair that he would get a crappy score based partially on a career ending injury.

I believe the Giants had the most starter injuries for 3 of the last 4 years. That's unlucky or ???

Except for 2007 and 2008 drafts,  
old man : 2/21/2018 2:23 pm : link
JPP and OBJ,Snacks,Jackrabbit, and VERY few others, JR drafting philosophy, and drafting were poor for the last 7-8 years, and though JM at least 3 times and TC at least once, since 2013, given the horrid last half of the 2012 season,, mentioning a return to Giants football, he never delivered.
On the later point, I would have fired the R Boys after the 2015 draft; the 2016 draft the absolute latest.
Not doing so until after the 2017 draft is on complacent ownership.
2007 and '08 drafts excluded, JR would have been deeply buried in dead last.
RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
jvm52106 : 2/21/2018 2:28 pm : link
In comment 13838160 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13838147 mrvax said:


Quote:


got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.



and please for God's sake, don't come back with "David Wilson would have been a star" if he didn't get hurt. He would not have.


Omg TY... Too many here say if he hadn't been hurt... He was a reach where he was picked and was a bad fit for a team like the Giants who ask their RB to A- block and B- not fumble..
EA was a lot better with Coughlin than Fassel  
Eric on Li : 2/21/2018 2:34 pm : link
He made a lot less "off the board" picks like Jeff Hatch, Ron Dixon, etc. His last few drafts with Coughlin were excellent.

2 of his 3 drafts with Coughlin were excellent. 2004 - Eli, Snee, Gibril Wilson and 2005 - Tuck, Jacobs, Webster. That's a handful of key players from both SB's.
RE: RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/21/2018 2:46 pm : link
In comment 13838292 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 13838160 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 13838147 mrvax said:


Quote:


got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.



and please for God's sake, don't come back with "David Wilson would have been a star" if he didn't get hurt. He would not have.



Omg TY... Too many here say if he hadn't been hurt... He was a reach where he was picked and was a bad fit for a team like the Giants who ask their RB to A- block and B- not fumble..


Also this myth about him having this huge fumbling problem. He had 3 total fumbles as NYG. Yes 3!

2 were behind the 2013 NYG line that is hands down the worst offensive line we have had in the 2000s.


David Wilson Career Stats - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
HomerJones45 : 2/21/2018 3:08 pm : link
In comment 13838211 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13838184 Victor in CT said:


He played for us for literally 21 total games and besides breaking the NYG all purpose record in his rookie season, had some huge running plays when he was a rookie as well.

We don't know what he could have been, but he certainly wasn't this big bust and terrible player you make him out to be.
"breaking the NYG all purpose record in his rookie season" Oh, that's rich. 350 yards rushing 34 yards receiving and 1500 yards returning kickoffs. That's Jerry Reach for you- got us a kick returner in round 1. Whose record did he break? Rocky Thompson's? Please.

Victor is right- role player. He wasn't even a particularly good receiver.
Didn't read it ...  
Beer Man : 2/21/2018 3:12 pm : link
But does it rate him based on the players he picked, or does it consider the positions he neglected as well?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
mrvax : 2/21/2018 3:13 pm : link
In comment 13838333 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
"breaking the NYG all purpose record in his rookie season" Oh, that's rich. 350 yards rushing 34 yards receiving and 1500 yards returning kickoffs. That's Jerry Reach for you- got us a kick returner in round 1. Whose record did he break? Rocky Thompson's? Please.

Victor is right- role player. He wasn't even a particularly good receiver.


So it was Wilson's fault Coughlin didn't use him much? Wilson had a career average of 4.4 ypc. Behind those lines!
We needed a scoreboard like this  
The_Boss : 2/21/2018 4:01 pm : link
To confirm Reese was bad at his job?

RE: We needed a scoreboard like this  
mrvax : 2/21/2018 4:08 pm : link
In comment 13838409 The_Boss said:
Quote:
To confirm Reese was bad at his job?


No but it's nice to have proof. Hell, JR himself asked a reporter (Raanan) to prove he was bad at drafting.
RE: RE: We needed a scoreboard like this  
The_Boss : 2/21/2018 4:21 pm : link
In comment 13838416 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13838409 The_Boss said:


Quote:


To confirm Reese was bad at his job?




No but it's nice to have proof. Hell, JR himself asked a reporter (Raanan) to prove he was bad at drafting.


He was bad at a lot of things, let’s be honest. Astute NYG fans knew this long ago. He’s gone now. It’s time to look ahead, not behind.
Funny thing is that  
mrvax : 2/21/2018 4:42 pm : link
just before the start of the 2017 season, most here would have agreed that Reese had done better over the last few drafts.

For some reason I have confidence in Gettleman & Shurmur.
RE: Funny thing is that  
The_Boss : 2/21/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13838459 mrvax said:
Quote:
just before the start of the 2017 season, most here would have agreed that Reese had done better over the last few drafts.

For some reason I have confidence in Gettleman & Shurmur.


Same here.
Proof?  
NoPeanutz : 2/21/2018 5:03 pm : link
Again, this board puts Jerrah in the top 15% of GMs for the last 15 years, 10 spots ahead of Bill Belichick.
Very scientific.
That spreadsheet is a mixture of GMs and head coaches.  
DonQuixote : 2/21/2018 5:34 pm : link
I don't understand.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Many of Reese's picks  
chuckydee9 : 2/21/2018 7:15 pm : link
In comment 13838317 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13838292 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 13838160 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 13838147 mrvax said:


Quote:


got injured, missed a lot of time and some had to leave the NFL. We can't put that blame on JR.

I wonder if any of this is accounted for in these numbers? If player injuries are not factored in properly, it could explain some of Reese's horrific numbers.



and please for God's sake, don't come back with "David Wilson would have been a star" if he didn't get hurt. He would not have.



Omg TY... Too many here say if he hadn't been hurt... He was a reach where he was picked and was a bad fit for a team like the Giants who ask their RB to A- block and B- not fumble..



Also this myth about him having this huge fumbling problem. He had 3 total fumbles as NYG. Yes 3!

2 were behind the 2013 NYG line that is hands down the worst offensive line we have had in the 2000s.
David Wilson Career Stats - ( New Window )


I have had no fumbles for the giants.. and I pretty much suck and I know I have a fumbling problem.. any how he had those 3 fumbles in 120 touches.. thats 1 fumble every 40 touch.. if you dont think thats bad then you are delusional.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/21/2018 7:17 pm : link
So, Ted Thompson is tops - but whenever his all-world QB isn't on the field, the Packers turn into a pumpkin.

That would tell me that his drafting has not been great - but what do I know.
13 Super Bowls played during that time period  
eclipz928 : 2/21/2018 9:25 pm : link
Giants won 2 of them . . . I don't really give a shit about what the draft score was.
RE: One of the mysteries of Life  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/21/2018 10:29 pm : link
In comment 13838136 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
is how Jerry was able to convince the owners that everyone was to blame but him. Those two are either dumb and dumber or Jerry's charm and persuasive powers make him a candidate for top salesman or political office.


Arrogant and dumb. They made TC fire coordinators over the years but left their golden boy and his pal Ross alone. Never adjusting until last year. They are who they are. They are where they are by birth. Not due to great acument or intellect. They may not be dumb but their failures in addressing how badly Reese missed on early picks over his tenure speaks for itself.
RE: RE: One of the mysteries of Life  
arcarsenal : 2/21/2018 10:35 pm : link
In comment 13838713 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 13838136 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


is how Jerry was able to convince the owners that everyone was to blame but him. Those two are either dumb and dumber or Jerry's charm and persuasive powers make him a candidate for top salesman or political office.



Arrogant and dumb. They made TC fire coordinators over the years but left their golden boy and his pal Ross alone. Never adjusting until last year. They are who they are. They are where they are by birth. Not due to great acument or intellect. They may not be dumb but their failures in addressing how badly Reese missed on early picks over his tenure speaks for itself.


What exactly do you mean by the bolded part there?

I hope you aren't suggesting what I think you are... because that'd be pretty fucking low.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/21/2018 10:37 pm : link
Sorry, I guess you're talking about the Mara's.

I thought you were referring to Reese/Ross.
RE: RE: RE: One of the mysteries of Life  
mrvax : 2/21/2018 10:39 pm : link
In comment 13838719 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13838713 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 13838136 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


is how Jerry was able to convince the owners that everyone was to blame but him. Those two are either dumb and dumber or Jerry's charm and persuasive powers make him a candidate for top salesman or political office.



Arrogant and dumb. They made TC fire coordinators over the years but left their golden boy and his pal Ross alone. Never adjusting until last year. They are who they are. They are where they are by birth. Not due to great acument or intellect. They may not be dumb but their failures in addressing how badly Reese missed on early picks over his tenure speaks for itself.



What exactly do you mean by the bolded part there?

I hope you aren't suggesting what I think you are... because that'd be pretty fucking low.


Arc: I took those bolded comments to mean they were born with a silver spoon in their mouths. Did something go flying over my aged head?
John Mara knew these stats when..  
EricJ : 2/21/2018 10:41 pm : link
he decided to retain Reese while firing Coughlin.
RE: John Mara knew these stats when..  
mrvax : 2/21/2018 10:46 pm : link
In comment 13838724 EricJ said:
Quote:
he decided to retain Reese while firing Coughlin.


To me, they're 2 different issues.
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