Should you use a #2 pick on a RB?

In comment 13838308 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

Barkley will probably be the pick if the QB doesn't carry the grade. If he does, then you go QB. Pretty simple.

Sure, it's pretty simple.

I guarantee you no one in the Giants organization that's opinion matters consider this decision simple.

He's had 2 brutal seasons in a row. There are other factors that come into play, but you can't deny that his past 2 seasons were awful. Factor in his age and I can't understand why people can't come to grips with the fact that it's just about over. It's reality.

He is probably the second best pass catcher on the roster week 1. Nobody mentions that....

he's flat out been awful at times the past two seasons, and it's not all on McAdoo.

In comment 13838313 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 13838308 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Barkley will probably be the pick if the QB doesn't carry the grade. If he does, then you go QB. Pretty simple. Sure, it's pretty simple. I guarantee you no one in the Giants organization that's opinion matters consider this decision simple.

Well, yes, obviously. But my opinion (and Sy's, Jon, or anyone else on this board) doesn't matter. I'm not sure I understand your point.

I'm not convinced the Giants feel their options at 2 are QB if they liked whoever CLE doesn't take (if they take a QB) or Barkley.

and it's that simple.

I think there are probably more legit scenarios than that they are considering.

Webb and believe him when he says he wants to be great. You can see that he truly loves the game.

If Shurmur and Shula think that they can turn this guy into a pro bowl QB, then you take Barkley.

In comment 13838319 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

I'm not convinced the Giants feel their options at 2 are QB if they liked whoever CLE doesn't take (if they take a QB) or Barkley. and it's that simple. I think there are probably more legit scenarios than that they are considering.

Sure, but i think those scenarios rely on other teams trading up and Giants acquiring more picks, which we know as of this point hasn't happened yet.

For example, if the Giants stay at 2, I just don't see them taking a guy like Chubb, Fitzpatrick, Nelson, etc. If they stay at 2 and take a guy that is not a QB or elite talent at RB like Barkley, that would be a complete shock to pretty much everyone on this board. Maybe I'm wrong...but I just don't see that happening unless they trade down. Which they might obviously.

If he's not done and you take Barkley, then you have the type of success for which you actually build a team. Nothing wrong with that. It's inevitable that you have to replace Eli, but you should still try to win games while you can.

Lets look at the playoff teams and where they got their RB's....

NE-no high picks, committee
KC-Hunt-3rd round
Pitt-Bell-2nd round
Jax-Fournette-4th overall
Buff-McCoy-2nd round
Tenn-Murray 3rd round/Henry 2nd round

Philly-no top pick
Minny-Murray-6th round/McKinnon 3rd round
NO-Ingram 28 overall/Kamara 3rd ound
Rams-Gurley-10th overall
Car-cam makes too much of a difference
Atl-4th round

the combine still hasn't happened yet, nor have interviews and private workouts.

This time 10 years ago, Andre Woodson and Brian Brohm were still considered future franchise QB's and projected early in mock drafts (Brohm did go 2nd round IIRC)

Still time for significant movement on teams draft boards IMO.

in 2016 around this time Laremy Tunsil was still close to consensus #1 pick, in 2015 La'el Collins was still in the 1st round at this time.

I know those are isolated character examples (other than Woodson who was exposed in a major way in the college post-season and combine/workouts), but point is it's still kind of early to have things broken down to simple options IMO.

Quote:

So, the question then comes is there a correlation like Gettleman says, and if so, which comes first OL or RB.

Two FA O-linemen. Barkley at 2 if he is there. Another O-lineman mid-draft, if the value is there.

I'm feeling pretty good about things, if that were to play out.

In comment 13838315 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

He is probably the second best pass catcher on the roster week 1. Nobody mentions that....

I do. Barkley, Engram and OBJ all have mismatch speed. You can send Barkley out wide or use motion to test man/zone and find the mismatch in the defense. If the kid runs a legit 4.3...

In comment 13838326 Keith said:

Quote:

Lets look at the playoff teams and where they got their RB's.... NE-no high picks, committee KC-Hunt-3rd round Pitt-Bell-2nd round Jax-Fournette-4th overall Buff-McCoy-2nd round Tenn-Murray 3rd round/Henry 2nd round Philly-no top pick Minny-Murray-6th round/McKinnon 3rd round NO-Ingram 28 overall/Kamara 3rd ound Rams-Gurley-10th overall Car-cam makes too much of a difference Atl-4th round

Right, I looked at that too, Fournette and Gurley (and Mccaffrey) high picks, the rest not. Ingram was late 1st.

I don't think it proves or disproves anything, you can't make conclusions on this other than RB's can be obtained multiple different ways and your running game can still succeed.

McCoy, Demarco Murray, and Ajayi were trades, Gillislee (who I don't even think was active in the SB) was an RFA signee, Burkhead, Blount, L. Murray a UFA.

but free agency starts first. What the Giants do with vet cuts, re-signings and new signings will tell us much. The whole QB vs RB argument is hinging upon what Cleveland does. If Darnold is our top QB and Cleveland takes him and NYG likes Barkley over all the other QB's or players, he should be the pick.

The question should be, will Cleveland take Barkley with the 1st pick and take the best QB left on the board at 4....that is the real question.

TVs will be broken.

In comment 13838326 Keith said:

Quote:

Lets look at the playoff teams and where they got their RB's.... NE-no high picks, committee KC-Hunt-3rd round Pitt-Bell-2nd round Jax-Fournette-4th overall Buff-McCoy-2nd round Tenn-Murray 3rd round/Henry 2nd round Philly-no top pick Minny-Murray-6th round/McKinnon 3rd round NO-Ingram 28 overall/Kamara 3rd ound Rams-Gurley-10th overall Car-cam makes too much of a difference Atl-4th round

Yes - the OP doesn't make the case for drafting a RB number 2. It makes a case for the importance of the running game. Not the same thing. As you show, you don't need to spend premium picks to get good RB's.

In comment 13838342 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

TVs will be broken.

Not mine, I'm good with anything.

any of the QB's they deem worthy
Barkley
Chubb

maybe even Nelson if they feel that strongly....

I'm going to trust the evaluation (for now).

In comment 13838344 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 13838342 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: TVs will be broken. Not mine, I'm good with anything.

Mine either. I don't know the actual prospects like most of you, so for me it's "In Gettleman we trust" until the pick stinks then I'll criticize Gettleman.

I won't hate the pick right away no matter who it is.

The only pick I ever remember thinking was a bad pick at the time it was made was Aaron Ross, and that was solely based on age and it wasn't throw the remote bad, just wished they'd drafted a player who wasn't 45 years old.

However, coming the 3-13 snuff film we just witnessed, I think we should be looking ahead to maximizing our upside with the pick. That means QB or trade down for a bounty. I'm cool taking Barkley, he's my guy if they pass on QB and can't trade down. However, they better know absolutely everything about these QBs and take that clock down to 30 seconds before handing in a card with Barkley's name on it.

A. You build for the future by drafting one of the top QB's (Darnold, Rosen). Both are 21 years old, and can sit behind Eli for a year while they become accustomed to the NFL/learn the offense. Not only would this set the Giants up with a potential franchise QB, but it would also help them in terms of the salary cap as they would be able to move on from Eli after 2018, which would clear up a ton of cap space that can be allocated towards re-signing players like Beckham, Collins, as well as adding free agents.

B. You take the player who you feel will have an instant impact and help transform the Giants team. A player who is going to help the Giants return to the playoffs and (hopefully)compete for a championship in 2018. That guy in this draft, in my opinion, would be Barkley.

It's a tough decision, and neither is wrong in my opinion. If you are set on one particular QB over the other, say Darnold, and you feel the other is a significant downgrade, it makes the decision a lot easier if the Browns take the guy that you like. If you have similar grades on multiple top QB's, than it will be a tough decision.

just different philosophies on team building.

In comment 13838350 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 13838344 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13838342 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: TVs will be broken. Not mine, I'm good with anything. Mine either. I don't know the actual prospects like most of you, so for me it's "In Gettleman we trust" until the pick stinks then I'll criticize Gettleman. I won't hate the pick right away no matter who it is. The only pick I ever remember thinking was a bad pick at the time it was made was Aaron Ross, and that was solely based on age and it wasn't throw the remote bad, just wished they'd drafted a player who wasn't 45 years old.

I'm in this group as well but there are a ton of fans who are either very passionate about "their guy" or very passionate about not selecting a certain player or position. Probably more so now since we are picking 2nd overall than any time in recent memory. The funny part is that when you pick 2nd it should narrow down the amount of players but this year is very unique.

In comment 13838339 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 13838326 Keith said: Quote: Lets look at the playoff teams and where they got their RB's.... NE-no high picks, committee KC-Hunt-3rd round Pitt-Bell-2nd round Jax-Fournette-4th overall Buff-McCoy-2nd round Tenn-Murray 3rd round/Henry 2nd round Philly-no top pick Minny-Murray-6th round/McKinnon 3rd round NO-Ingram 28 overall/Kamara 3rd ound Rams-Gurley-10th overall Car-cam makes too much of a difference Atl-4th round Right, I looked at that too, Fournette and Gurley (and Mccaffrey) high picks, the rest not. Ingram was late 1st. I don't think it proves or disproves anything, you can't make conclusions on this other than RB's can be obtained multiple different ways and your running game can still succeed. McCoy, Demarco Murray, and Ajayi were trades, Gillislee (who I don't even think was active in the SB) was an RFA signee, Burkhead, Blount, L. Murray a UFA.

You can't include McCaffrey because he wasn't really a part of the running game. Car has a great running game because of Cam. Can't really include them in this discussion becuase of Cam.

In comment 13838343 bluepepper said:

Quote:

In comment 13838326 Keith said: Quote: Lets look at the playoff teams and where they got their RB's.... NE-no high picks, committee KC-Hunt-3rd round Pitt-Bell-2nd round Jax-Fournette-4th overall Buff-McCoy-2nd round Tenn-Murray 3rd round/Henry 2nd round Philly-no top pick Minny-Murray-6th round/McKinnon 3rd round NO-Ingram 28 overall/Kamara 3rd ound Rams-Gurley-10th overall Car-cam makes too much of a difference Atl-4th round Yes - the OP doesn't make the case for drafting a RB number 2. It makes a case for the importance of the running game. Not the same thing. As you show, you don't need to spend premium picks to get good RB's.

Exactly. This was my thoughts as well. The importance of the running game is vital to success, but you don't need to draft a rb early to have a top running game.

In comment 13838350 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 13838344 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13838342 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: TVs will be broken. Not mine, I'm good with anything. Mine either. I don't know the actual prospects like most of you, so for me it's "In Gettleman we trust" until the pick stinks then I'll criticize Gettleman. I won't hate the pick right away no matter who it is. The only pick I ever remember thinking was a bad pick at the time it was made was Aaron Ross, and that was solely based on age and it wasn't throw the remote bad, just wished they'd drafted a player who wasn't 45 years old.

I assure you that outside of 1 person, nobody on bbi knows the prospects enough to freak out over any pick. Nobody is privvy to enough information to really know.

I see with Barkley for 2018 is what you saw with Gurley in 2016.

If the OL stinks Barkley can be Walter Payton and it's not going to help the Giants in 2018.

Gurley, on average, per PFF in 2016 was hit 2.4 times in the backfield every touch before even reaching the line of scrimmage (or something like that).

If the Giants don't significantly upgrade the OL, how much does Barkley really upgrade the Giants in 2018.

Or, maybe some people feel like the Giants OL is more maligned than they deserve the running game struggles were Perkins, Darkwa, Gallman more than the OL.

I don't know the answer, but if I had to guess I'd say the Giants OL was a significant reason for the running game struggles.

Giants were 26th in rushing yards per game and 22nd in ypc in 2017

in 2016 they were 29th in rushing yards per game and 30th in rushing yards per carry.

Get their 2 1st round picks in this draft, their 2 2nd round picks and their 3rd round pick this year, and their 2019 1st round pick. If the Giants want a RB - look at Guice with one of those 2 1st rounders, and use the rest of the premium picks this year (6 between rounds 1-3 this year to address the OL, another WR, and the defense).

Target Soldier in FA to play LT, move Flowers to RT.

It doesn't matter who the back is with a piss poor line. I'm also not convinced that Gallman isn't the answer. I'd like to see him with a real OL.

In comment 13838375 Keith said:

Quote:

It doesn't matter who the back is with a piss poor line. I'm also not convinced that Gallman isn't the answer. I'd like to see him with a real OL.

Same here. And I'm fine with replacing/fixing the OL in free agency. Who was it? the Vikings? who had 5 new OL in 2017?

In comment 13838326 Keith said:

Quote:

Lets look at the playoff teams and where they got their RB's.... NE-no high picks, committee KC-Hunt-3rd round Pitt-Bell-2nd round Jax-Fournette-4th overall Buff-McCoy-2nd round Tenn-Murray 3rd round/Henry 2nd round Philly-no top pick Minny-Murray-6th round/McKinnon 3rd round NO-Ingram 28 overall/Kamara 3rd ound Rams-Gurley-10th overall Car-cam makes too much of a difference Atl-4th round

How does this look if you do it for QBs?

BillL I had done this before:

this is where they were drafted, not how acquired since Alex Smith for example was a UFA.

NE - Brady - 6th round
KC - Smith - 1st round
Pitt - Ben - 1st round
Jax - Bortles - 1st round
Buff - Taylor - 6th round
Tenn - Mariotta - 1st round

Philly - Foles* - 3rd round (* here because they have Wentz who was drafted in the 1st round)

Minny - Keenum - UDFA
NO - Brees - 2nd round
Rams - Goff - 1st round
Car - Newton - 1st round
Atl - Ryan - 1st round

You pick the best player available and at the second overall pick, 99 times out of 100, it’s not a running back.... that said, Barkley is still that good and MIGHT BE the BPA when we pick...

He’s the second best player on my board, closely followed by a few others, Darnold stands above the rest as my number one player but if he goes to Cleveland first l, I think Barkley is the best draft choice available.

In comment 13838372 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

I see with Barkley for 2018 is what you saw with Gurley in 2016. If the OL stinks Barkley can be Walter Payton and it's not going to help the Giants in 2018. Gurley, on average, per PFF in 2016 was hit 2.4 times in the backfield every touch before even reaching the line of scrimmage (or something like that). If the Giants don't significantly upgrade the OL, how much does Barkley really upgrade the Giants in 2018. Or, maybe some people feel like the Giants OL is more maligned than they deserve the running game struggles were Perkins, Darkwa, Gallman more than the OL. I don't know the answer, but if I had to guess I'd say the Giants OL was a significant reason for the running game struggles. Giants were 26th in rushing yards per game and 22nd in ypc in 2017 in 2016 they were 29th in rushing yards per game and 30th in rushing yards per carry.

I think this is a bit of an overrated aspect to the Barkley pick. While the OL is not great, they are not a horrible run blocking unit. Look what a replacement level player like Darkwa was able to do behind this line last year. The OL struggles mainly in pass-pro, but Flowers, Jones, Fluker all are better run blockers than they are in pass-pro. Plus, it appears the Giants are going to target Norwell, who would be a significant upgrade over Jerry and would help further improve the OL. Add in a second rounder who can compete at OT and allow Flowers to move inside or to the Right side, and a mid-round guy for the interior, and all of the sudden this isn't too bad of a unit. Probably somewhere around middle of the pack.

for the next 5 years, the answer is yes. Unless, as everyone else says, we're 100% certain there's a can't-miss QB on the board.

In comment 13838410 est1986 said:

Quote:

You pick the best player available and at the second overall pick, 99 times out of 100, it’s not a running back.... that said, Barkley is still that good and MIGHT BE the BPA when we pick... He’s the second best player on my board, closely followed by a few others, Darnold stands above the rest as my number one player but if he goes to Cleveland first l, I think Barkley is the best draft choice available.

There should be many aspects of this decision. The math or science should absolutely factor in. It shouldn't be the only thing, but it should be a factor. We are investing a premium draft pick as well as major money, why wouldn't we factor in the science?

there, take the QB.


If not, I have no problem taking a RB at 2.

How many of the QBs will the Giants view in that regard? If its just Darnold, and Rosen's health scares them, they could take the RB.

It's not what position, it's which player. Meaning: Suppose Rosen or Darnold turns out to be a nice QB who's as good as, say, Matthew Stafford. You can win with that guy. You're set for a starter for a while. But suppose Saquon Barkley turns out to be a Hall of Famer, the next Marshall Faulk. Then who's the better pick?

Nobody knows the future, so it's not a simple decision. Nobody knows how good any of these guys will be in the pros. Even Andrew Luck, who was as close to a can't-miss prospect as we've seen in a long time, has been derailed by injuries. But you want the perennial All-Pro/potential HoFer at any position. If you think Barkley is that guy, you run to the podium. If you have your choice of Barkley and a QB, and you think they're both that guy, then you take the QB. But you take the elite player, position be damned.

Remember the Giants hardly needed a linebacker when they took Lawrence Taylor.

.

is the real deal.

In comment 13838496 TC said:

Quote:

.

Could this not devolve into idiocy for once? Wilson got injured. Do you have anything relevant to add to the conversation?

In comment 13838471 81_Great_Dane said:

Quote:

It's not what position, it's which player. Meaning: Suppose Rosen or Darnold turns out to be a nice QB who's as good as, say, Matthew Stafford. You can win with that guy. You're set for a starter for a while. But suppose Saquon Barkley turns out to be a Hall of Famer, the next Marshall Faulk. Then who's the better pick? Nobody knows the future, so it's not a simple decision. Nobody knows how good any of these guys will be in the pros. Even Andrew Luck, who was as close to a can't-miss prospect as we've seen in a long time, has been derailed by injuries. But you want the perennial All-Pro/potential HoFer at any position. If you think Barkley is that guy, you run to the podium. If you have your choice of Barkley and a QB, and you think they're both that guy, then you take the QB. But you take the elite player, position be damned. Remember the Giants hardly needed a linebacker when they took Lawrence Taylor.

i agree with this. But, you read that about Barkley. Comparisons to HoF guys. You don’t read anything close to that about the QB class. You read it’s deep. Lists of god guys. Only one close to great might be Rosen and he’s an enormous short shelf life risk.

One thing that’s most important about this draft and the Giants. They cannot *miss*.

however some people have a philosophy that no matter who the player is, you don't take some positions at #2, like a guard. More than a few people say Quentin Nelson is the best player in the draft.

Why isn't he taken first then?

I'll tell you why, it's because some positions are weighted more heavily than others vaulting some QB's, DB's, DE's, and possibly RB's ahead of him.

So to have the conversation purely about players loses some context.

Plus, and more to the point of the thread, I personally don't know enough to properly evaluate college players and project their NFL fit. So rather than rely on "draft-niks" and other talking heads mock drafts or rankings, I think the discussion about position is a worthy one.

In the end though based on the search results, I convinced myself position is semi-irrelevant to the Giants plans, and improving the running game should be paramount, even more important than who they take at #2, priority should be improving the overall ground game (via UFA, trade, draft, however).

Of course they can't afford to miss on this pick, but the post helped me see things a little differently.

In comment 13838496 TC said:

Quote:

.

What does this have to do with anything?

David Wilson was selected 32nd overall. Not 2nd.

And David Wilson was never discussed the way Barkley is as a prospect.

The backs that truly make a difference can catch as well as run...Dual threat to run/pass out of the backfield. Kamara, Gurley and Bell are production monsters. Barkley could be better than all of them. Barkley frees up a roster spot, don't need a 3rd down pass catching back.

In comment 13838315 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

He is probably the second best pass catcher on the roster week 1. Nobody mentions that....

As the BBI pro-Barkleys started chirping last month, I watched his highlight videos. The one thing that stood out to me was how fluidly he caught the ball. If he never ran the ball again, he could make a living as a damn good slot receiver.

while any player can, and eventually all players do have injuries to some degree, RB's experience significant injury more often than other positions, and on average, have shorter careers.

I'd say that's relevant to using the #2 pick in the draft to select one.

In comment 13838593 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 13838496 TC said: Quote: . What does this have to do with anything? David Wilson was selected 32nd overall. Not 2nd. And David Wilson was never discussed the way Barkley is as a prospect.

David Wilson was an electrifying talent when he was here. All-Pro KR as a rookie. Single-game all purpose yards record. 5 YPC as a rookie. Nothing you can do about the degenerative neck condition that he was predisposed that didn't show up in the pre-draft process. But, I feel like he was on his way to stardom.

The Giants offense scoring 52 points vs the Saints that year with tons of big plays between Beckham, Cruz, Nicks, and Bennett- that is what I can envision with Barkley in the fold along with Odell, Shep, and Engram.

on whether or not Davis Webb has the talent to lead this team as a starter, if he does then we would have OBJ and Barkley to make this offense work along with a revamped O line...