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| .... “I had a conversation with Mr. Gettleman and kind of told him how I felt and my abilities as a quarterback,” Webb said last week after a throwing session with a group of college players preparing for the draft. “I think there are enough people around the facility that believe in me and believe in my work ethic and believe in my ability to play quarterback one day for this franchise. “I want them to know that I’m here to be the best teammate possible and work very hard. I know we have a high pick in the draft. But nobody really knows but two people -- that is coach Shurmur and Mr. Gettleman. So there can be a lot of guessing and stuff like that.” .... |
I don't believe that's necessarily true. Hell, the Bears traded up for a college QB that had started a grand total of 13 career games.
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"he works hard and says the right things".
That doesn't mean anything if he doesn't have the talent level to be a starter. Those qualities are universal in a lot of football players. Mark Herzlich works hard and says the right things.
Again. It has more to do with the prospects coming out. Too many people assume that because it is the top of the draft, that QB is the truth. If they aren't THE guy, pass on him and hope for Webb. If Barkley becomes what I think he can become, we are talking special. Special enough to overshadow a QB issue if Webb isn't the guy or NYG can't find one in the next 2 years.
That would be incredible, but, the odds that he's so good that he transcends the need for a certain level of QB are steep. And if he's really good, but not that kind of good, it means the team is just good enough to not be in position to draft the type of QB prospect that everyone wants to see, the one that doesn't have any visible flaws.
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But, at least most players labeled "can't miss" have no glaring warts at the time of the draft.
I don't believe that's necessarily true. Hell, the Bears traded up for a college QB that had started a grand total of 13 career games.
He is as likable as any player can be. Works hard, is humble but you can tell there is a fire in his belly.
I think he has "it". There were projections for him last year as a player taken in the bottom half of the 1st round.
I still would take Darnold though if he is there- Webb is going to be good in my opinion but his ceiling is like a Matt Stafford. Darnold's ceiling is Joe Montana.
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Warts, glaring ones actually. Darnold is a turnover machine with a wonky release, those things are physical and mental and aren't easy to fix. Eli has been careless with the football since we drafted him and he still makes those bone headed plays so you have to live with those if you take Darnold. Darnold had more weapons at USC than Eli did and his numbers weren't as good, gun to my head Darnold doesn't have the career impact Eli has and isn't worth it at #2.
Rosen is another one, great mechanics, fluid player, smart QB, competitive and well rounded but may take too many chances and the shoulder and concussions have to worry you at #2. He's got a smaller frame than you want in someone that tall and durability has been an issue.
Mayfield is the best player of the QBs but the off the field blips and the height may be enough to scare teams off from rolling the dice that high. The NFL doesn't usually buck trends when drafting, the personnel folks are like a skittish pack of deer, one sound and they all take off in the same direction. Mayfield may be the 2nd best or 3rd best player in this draft but he probably slides because he's a hair over 6-0 and he has those dopey blotches on his resume.
For a team that has done almost nothing right for a few years, we absolutely have to hit on this pick. Eli Apple and Erick Flowers look like busts at 10 and 9 which is woeful given how rarely we've picked that high. Now we have the 2nd pick and we cannot roll the dice. I've been on the Barkley train from day one, I still think he goes first and this is all moot but if Cleveland doesn't take him we almost have to. I would actually even consider Nelson at 2, if he's as good as he looks he could be a Larry Allen type of dominator on the OL. I'd sign up for that at #2 but I would not sign up for a QB who may or not have it and has too many question marks in the grading process.
I agree. Throw in Jackson, who I like, but his height is an issue. I was in favor of Barkley from day one also. I think he is the best player in the draft. But, I would be fine with Nelson or better yet, trading down to amass picks.
I think Jackson is 6'3", tall enough in my mind. I'd feel better if he was 220+ instead of 212lbs.
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Warts, glaring ones actually. Darnold is a turnover machine with a wonky release, those things are physical and mental and aren't easy to fix. Eli has been careless with the football since we drafted him and he still makes those bone headed plays so you have to live with those if you take Darnold. Darnold had more weapons at USC than Eli did and his numbers weren't as good, gun to my head Darnold doesn't have the career impact Eli has and isn't worth it at #2.
Rosen is another one, great mechanics, fluid player, smart QB, competitive and well rounded but may take too many chances and the shoulder and concussions have to worry you at #2. He's got a smaller frame than you want in someone that tall and durability has been an issue.
Mayfield is the best player of the QBs but the off the field blips and the height may be enough to scare teams off from rolling the dice that high. The NFL doesn't usually buck trends when drafting, the personnel folks are like a skittish pack of deer, one sound and they all take off in the same direction. Mayfield may be the 2nd best or 3rd best player in this draft but he probably slides because he's a hair over 6-0 and he has those dopey blotches on his resume.
For a team that has done almost nothing right for a few years, we absolutely have to hit on this pick. Eli Apple and Erick Flowers look like busts at 10 and 9 which is woeful given how rarely we've picked that high. Now we have the 2nd pick and we cannot roll the dice. I've been on the Barkley train from day one, I still think he goes first and this is all moot but if Cleveland doesn't take him we almost have to. I would actually even consider Nelson at 2, if he's as good as he looks he could be a Larry Allen type of dominator on the OL. I'd sign up for that at #2 but I would not sign up for a QB who may or not have it and has too many question marks in the grading process.
I agree. Throw in Jackson, who I like, but his height is an issue. I was in favor of Barkley from day one also. I think he is the best player in the draft. But, I would be fine with Nelson or better yet, trading down to amass picks.
Is 6'3 not tall enough for you? I'm confused.
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In comment 13839317 Miamijints said:
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In comment 13839119 Go Terps said:
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In comment 13839112 mrvax said:
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to roll with Eli & Webb, can you imagine the effect on the offense? With an improved Oline and Barkley, I really see the scoreboard lighting up like a pinball machine.
Here's to hoping Webb grades out similar to or better than the draftee QBs.
I think the pinball machine offense scenario is:
1) Draft Barkley
2) Trade back up into the first round and draft Lamar Jackson
It is mind boggling to me how people do not see this as the best scenario period! I doubt we would even have to trade back thanks to Polian's ridiculous analysis of LJ. Jackson would have a minimum of a year maybe 2 years to develop. LJ, SB, EE, SS and OBJ!?!?! I dare anyone to explain to me how you would stop that combination. Especially with a HC that knows how to get the best out his QB. Sick.
I'm not a Lamar Jackson fan exactly, but I think this idea has merit. I have no doubt Shurmur and Shula could get a lot out of his skillset. Also, if you fix his footwork, you fix his accuracy problems.
I agree. But think of it this way, Even if he only attempts 20 passes a game, OBJ, SS OR EE would be in single coverage almost 80% of those 20 passes! LJ would have the easiest reads of any QB in the league! Plus imo his accuracy issue is so over-blown, Why is Allen looked at as a possible top 10 pick but his completion pct. is lower?
You bring up good points. And I agree with you on Allen. Let's be honest, the reason why so many draft gurus are willing to overlook Allen's accuracy problems is his physical stature and extremely powerful arm. He looks like a prototypical NFL QB, just doesn't play like one.
Jackson's accuracy issues are most apparent in the short ranges. I'm way below an amateur when it comes to talent evaluation but the trend I see with him is that his feet are not set properly when he is throwing short, either because he is rushing the throw to get it out on time and his first step is off, or because he is under pressure and he loses his feet. Fix his feet and I think Jackson doesn't have accuracy problems.
If Shurmur and Gettleman think they can work with Jackson and make him a successful NFL QB, then I'm all for the pick. Shurmur knows what he wants in a QB, and Gettleman does not strike me as a guy who would take a risk on a QB he didn't believe could play at a high level. I don't see them reaching.
As I stated earlier, the biggest thing at #2 is to not swing and miss. If the Giants miss at #2 we are in for some long sad years.
Rosen is another one, great mechanics, fluid player, smart QB, competitive and well rounded but may take too many chances and the shoulder and concussions have to worry you at #2. He's got a smaller frame than you want in someone that tall and durability has been an issue.
Mayfield is the best player of the QBs but the off the field blips and the height may be enough to scare teams off from rolling the dice that high. The NFL doesn't usually buck trends when drafting, the personnel folks are like a skittish pack of deer, one sound and they all take off in the same direction. Mayfield may be the 2nd best or 3rd best player in this draft but he probably slides because he's a hair over 6-0 and he has those dopey blotches on his resume.
For a team that has done almost nothing right for a few years, we absolutely have to hit on this pick. Eli Apple and Erick Flowers look like busts at 10 and 9 which is woeful given how rarely we've picked that high. Now we have the 2nd pick and we cannot roll the dice. I've been on the Barkley train from day one, I still think he goes first and this is all moot but if Cleveland doesn't take him we almost have to. I would actually even consider Nelson at 2, if he's as good as he looks he could be a Larry Allen type of dominator on the OL. I'd sign up for that at #2 but I would not sign up for a QB who may or not have it and has too many question marks in the grading process.
Joey, you said it all man.
Also, I have zero problem with Nelson at #2. I don't subscribe to the "you don't draft X position" early in the draft. Bottom line, you draft any player (other than punter, kicker, and fullback) you believe is a franchise player.
Again. It has more to do with the prospects coming out. Too many people assume that because it is the top of the draft, that QB is the truth. If they aren't THE guy, pass on him and hope for Webb. If Barkley becomes what I think he can become, we are talking special. Special enough to overshadow a QB issue if Webb isn't the guy or NYG can't find one in the next 2 years. [/quote]
FWIW (and that won't buy you anything) TOTALLY agree with your position Sy... Barkley is a game changer for this offense and the QBs just aren't so highly talented beyond Webb at this point IMHO, that and Webb knows not only the playbook, but he knows our WRs/TEs. Additonally, you don't need 3 QBs on the roster cap wise. That would be Part II of QB hell....especially with other holes to fill.
Perhaps, but still, WAY too much money then being spent on the QB position.
[quote] In comment 13838991 JohnB said:
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Disagree. He's a complete unknown /quote]
You're not the only guy who says this. By no means is he a complete unknown. He's been in the building for a year, got reps etc. Do you think Mara et al did not get a sense of him from the HC and OC? Do you think the WRs etc did not get a sense of him? At this point they know way more about him that Darnold and company.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/davis-webb-receives-first-team-reps-giants-practice-article-1.3714161
To say that that's any kind of indicator of what he is capable of is irresponsible. There's nothing wrong with the idea that the team really doesn't know what he is.
In a lost season with the walls caving in, nobody is giving a thought to the 3rd QB. They told you as much.
“I would certainly respect that obviously,” Spagnuolo said of the possibility that John Mara would request to see Webb in a game. “Authority’s authority. But that hasn’t happened. But I would certainly respect that. Our job is we work for the organization.”
Spagnuolo explained the reason for not giving him these reps sooner was because of the hectic change of scenery since he took over as interim head coach for the recently fired Ben McAdoo.
“Let’s get the quarterback in there that’s going to play. Let’s get him all the reps. I can’t even remember in that first week if we did the competitive periods or not. ... I know we did them last week and that wasn’t something…neither, I hadn’t thought about or we hadn’t talked about and we didn’t do it. So, we got to this week and decided to do it.”
Spagnuolo, asked directly if the Giants weren’t playing Webb because they don’t feel he’s ready, said: “No, no. I can’t say that right now. Again you’re asking questions I have not had the discussions with the offensive coaches about that. But that’s a fair question. In other words are we not moving him up because we don’t think he’s ready …?”
Asked why not just make Webb the backup in games (with obvious chances to play when the games get out of hand even if Spagnuolo is trying to win), Spagnuolo said: “I’m not sure what would be gained other than if something happened to the starting quarterback then he goes in. See in answer to your question, there is tremendous preparation for this young man to be a quarterback in the NFL. I’m not sure where, this is what I’ll talk to (offensive coordinator) Mike (Sullivan) and (QB coach) Frank (Cignetti) about, is it that much more of an advantage to have him standing on the sideline as the second than there is with him standing on the sideline as a deactivated player?”
Both are the same height and weight, both have a strong arm and both guys have some accuracy & footwork issues to work out.
The difference is that Webb has a full year on an NFL bench and he has been totally consumed with football since childhood.
To say that that's any kind of indicator of what he is capable of is irresponsible. There's nothing wrong with the idea that the team really doesn't know what he is.
In a lost season with the walls caving in, nobody is giving a thought to the 3rd QB. They told you as much.
Agree they cannot tell how he'd do in a live NFL game but there is something the Giants should know about Webb. They should be able to tell if Webb has improved with anything the coaches had him work on. That is a very telling trait that he either does or doesn't have.
That's actually encouraging being that many draftnics have Allen going in the top 10.
It really is amazing to me how undervalued he is, especially compared to Allen, who is has way more questions about him even as a passer.
It really is amazing to me how undervalued he is, especially compared to Allen, who is has way more questions about him even as a passer.
I heard on WFAN (Evan Roberts) that Bill Polian suggested he be open to becoming a WR. That’s now a 2nd person who harbors that thought, the other being an anonymous NFC scout. I would guess the chance on Lamar Jackson being a Giant is less than 1%.
With every viewpoint you post I am encouraged to believe the opposite. It's remarkable.
I heard on WFAN (Evan Roberts) that Bill Polian suggested he be open to becoming a WR. That’s now a 2nd person who harbors that thought, the other being an anonymous NFC scout. I would guess the chance on Lamar Jackson being a Giant is less than 1%.
I agree completely that there is zero chance of Jackson being a Giant. I just think the guy is being short changed considering Allen is being considered as a top of the draft prospect.
Jackson is a better quarterback than Allen. He's got better pocket awareness and is cooler under pressure. While I'd agree there are accuracy issues on some throws for Jackson they are no worse than Allen's. And that is to say nothing about Allen's athleticism not being close to comparable to Jackson's.
If Jackson should be considered as a wide receiver, then we should be talking about Allen as a tight end, because there is nothing Allen can do that Jackson can't at the quarterback position.
If Jackson should be considered as a wide receiver, then we should be talking about Allen as a tight end, because there is nothing Allen can do that Jackson can't at the quarterback position.
FWIW: The Youtube video you posted last month about QB poise featuring Jackson and Allen was really telling. I became a Jackson fan and watched some videos of actual games. I also knew right then and there that Allen needs a lot of work. A lot. I do not think he will succeed in the NFL.
Any doubters? Watch the video and you decide.
QB poise staring Jackson & Allen - ( New Window )
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"he works hard and says the right things".
That doesn't mean anything if he doesn't have the talent level to be a starter. Those qualities are universal in a lot of football players. Mark Herzlich works hard and says the right things.
Again. It has more to do with the prospects coming out. Too many people assume that because it is the top of the draft, that QB is the truth. If they aren't THE guy, pass on him and hope for Webb. If Barkley becomes what I think he can become, we are talking special. Special enough to overshadow a QB issue if Webb isn't the guy or NYG can't find one in the next 2 years.
I think we all agree they have to hit big on this one whatever the decision. If I had to take WAG at their draft board I would say it’s Darnold 1 and Barkley 2 and they aren’t coming off unless someone completely blows them away with an offer too good to pass up.
None of those four guys is an elite passer in the Rodgers/Brady/Brees mold. The biggest reason for their success has been their ability to maximize the extended/broken play (something that could be argued for Rodgers as well).
I believe that once the play has gone off script, the passing windows get larger as the defense is pulled out of shape and thus the need for pinpoint accuracy goes down. I saw it all the time last year with those four guys, who each frequently was throwing to an open receiver because of their ability to extend the play.
Lamar Jackson is never going to be Troy Aikman throwing millimeter perfect lasers from the pocket, but he doesn't have to be in order to be effective.
The big injury concern with Jackson isn't based on reality as he doesn't have a history of missing games. People will point to Wentz and Watson as mobile QBs that got hurt, but Wentz is reckless (Jackson is not) and Watson hurt himself in practice in a non-contact situation. I could just as easily make the argument that Sam Bradford, Aaron Rodgers, and Tony Romo were injury prone.
There just hasn't been a solid case made against Jackson as a premier prospect in a draft where Josh Allen is considered one. And frankly I don't think Darnold or Rosen showed themselves to be better quarterbacks than Jackson either.
2. The full evaluations of 2018 draft class is nearing completion and none of the qb's are standing out.
3. We have a new coaching staff in place. Or new head coach has a track record of helping career backup to qb's successful in the NFL.
The last thing is huge. We selected a guy who has shown that he can make an offense work with castoff QBs. Why not give Webb a real shot and see what we have? You can always trade up if you struggle.
The alternative is what Gettleman was referring to in his presser. Select a QB real high and you have to commit to putting the franchise in his hands for several years. This is highly risky, so you don't want to do it unless you have a conviction on one.
It would seem that Sy is seeing what a lot of us see, things to like (and not like) about all these QBs. In other words, no conviction = till the dice with the guys you got and load up with weapons and strength along the line.
Yet, with the opportunity to pick possibly the best QB coming out of college this season, we should pass and take a running back because we are good to go for the near term at the most important position on the roster.
Did you all slip and hit your heads on the ground on the way to work today?
Yet, with the opportunity to pick possibly the best QB coming out of college this season, we should pass and take a running back because we are good to go for the near term at the most important position on the roster.
Did you all slip and hit your heads on the ground on the way to work today?
Jimmy, Dan makes a good point. If you just don't see great ability/promise in the QBs presented to you at #2, why on Earth would you draft him? Just to say, "We tried"? I'm not against taking one, but you have to have a conviction that a guy has "it". Else, you take the best player available that helps your system.
You draft Rosen/Darnold and they are paid NFL backup money for a QB for 5 years.
They are a very talented bunch and would be shocked if one or more doesn’t become a really solid QB.
Let’s stop with the basics of Drafting 101 as the reason to disdain picking a QB
They are a very talented bunch and would be shocked if one or more doesn’t become a really solid QB.
Let’s stop with the basics of Drafting 101 as the reason to disdain picking a QB
Jimmy, you don't understand. I'd be thrilled if they took a QB. But we don't have their evals to look at. If they don't go QB, the conclusion they made is obvious, whether right or wrong.
Besides it’s also possible guys like Barkley and Chubb don’t meet the eval test too.
Cuts both ways...
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Even if you want to discount the time Webb spent playing in an air raid offense in a conference that sucks at defense, his one year at Cal is better than anything Allen has done.
That's actually encouraging being that many draftnics have Allen going in the top 10.
Though, it's long been established that draftniks have a fetish for big measurables. Allen is top 10 right now based on his size and his raw arm strength, and what he could be if everything about his development trended upward in a steady line, not what he actually is now. His obvious flaws are being looked past and dismissed due to his perceived potential.
Besides it’s also possible guys like Barkley and Chubb don’t meet the eval test too.
Cuts both ways...
Yes it's possible Barkley and Chubb aren't high on their board. But... what if, as you state, the Giants have a QB in mind that passes the smell test. Cleveland takes him with pick #1.
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In comment 13839613 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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Even if you want to discount the time Webb spent playing in an air raid offense in a conference that sucks at defense, his one year at Cal is better than anything Allen has done.
That's actually encouraging being that many draftnics have Allen going in the top 10.
Though, it's long been established that draftniks have a fetish for big measurables. Allen is top 10 right now based on his size and his raw arm strength, and what he could be if everything about his development trended upward in a steady line, not what he actually is now. His obvious flaws are being looked past and dismissed due to his perceived potential.
Agree 100%. Many teams aren't that stupid but I'm sure a few are.
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the smell test.
Besides it’s also possible guys like Barkley and Chubb don’t meet the eval test too.
Cuts both ways...
Yes it's possible Barkley and Chubb aren't high on their board. But... what if, as you state, the Giants have a QB in mind that passes the smell test. Cleveland takes him with pick #1.
You pick the next guy you want. I am not debating you shouldn’t pick players you don’t want
I am debating the concept that we actually have to say in a thread “ don’t force it” and using it as some worthless safety-net phrase as to a reason Giants may not pick a QB.
Like “no shit”...
I'm rooting for Webb. There's things I like about him and things I don't, neither have changed from last year because I have nothing new to go off of.. And just because I'm rooting for Webb doesn't mean I'm going to devalue these QBs.
I reached out to a few guys before I weighed back in on this thread just to make sure I'm not seeing something that isn't there. They all agree, this class of QBs are as good as any in a long time. One said there's a reason 4 of them may go in the top 10. Another even pointed out how picked apart last years top QBs were. People nitpick these prospects so much they forget what they do so well. Something to keep in mind.
For the past 3-4 days I've been trying to gather as much as I could about Webb. He would be a sort of consolation prize if the Giants don't go QB. Hence, I'm rooting for Webb who seems to have football on his mind 24 x 7.
I would get out of the spot quite frankly. In a QB loaded draft, teams will move up even if they don’t make the Giants grade.
Grab a few extra picks and call it a day...
Now I love Allen but if he is the pick at #2, how will you explain that you know anything about him? That’s why it was such a disgrace not to get Webb on the NFL field last year. If we draft a QB we now lock up three spots Eli, Webb and pick, with two of those slots being useless since it seems Eli will start again this year. Can’t trade Webb he is almost a free roster spot for the position he plays for three more years.
IMO this draft class and the draft position this team is in presently demands they take a QB at 2. Now which one depends on a lot still but for NY Darnold or Allen seem to provide the better upside. Of the top three to include Rosen these kids are all unknown except for the same Info they will get as they got last year on Webb prior to the draft. When you hear guys talk about Darnold, Rosen & Allen they point to accuracy, physical size, production and level of competition. Today they also want a QB who can get outside, throw on the move and still stand in the pocket and take a few for the team.
In most cases the player we see today will not be the same in a year or two. Now the teams will try and make them into whatever type of QB the offense they desire will require. I’ve seen Eli for years yet today I still don’t know what offense he is best in other than to say Eli is who he is a middle of the pack NFL QB. Now if you ask yourself which offense best suits Brady, Ben, Rogers, Rivers and Brees the answers are rather simplistic. Now that does not make them perfect but they seem much more comfortable in the offense they are running timeframe is not a consideration because they are the best of the best.
Players never seem to be given this team factor but it’s a major part of the development of players do they fit the role they are being asked to play. Talents may be great or just good but being asked to perform or change the mental game a player has know all his life can destroy the talent or the player. Guy runs like the wind but you ask him to run inside slant the lightbulb goes off somewhere inside. Sometimes the player ends up in the wrong system or coaching personnel. You will hear this guy became a bust or he was not able to learn the playbook but it’s very seldom the coaches just misused the talent they were given.
We have had Eli for a decade plus but it’s still a game played by younger guys there was a day before Eli and there will be ones after. The second pick of the 2018 draft could let us know how soon the after Eli days will arrive we all hope someone starts a new chapter of Giants history.
2) He should not be overlooked as a legitimate long term option to replace Eli.
3) We should know more about him than we do after one year but Ben McAdoo and John Mara totally ruined that opportunity.
Agreed.
Also, any gm that selected a rb with the second pick when you have glaring needs on the offensive line, at the quarterback position, in the pass rush amongst other areas should immediately be fired. It's the least important position on offensive. Those of you that like to point out a qb like Foles winning a sb -which by the way is extremely rare, there really no debating that- how many rbs in the past two sbs were selected in round 1? How many in rd 2? How many were undrafted? What you did see is teams with great offensive lines and both rode great qbs just about all season.
Nobody can intelligently discuss his footwork, his accuracy, his ability to read a defense, or even his pocket awareness because we've seen almost nothing from him.
So instead of just realizing this is the case, people still prattle on about him by saying he's "just a football guy" - "Is a film junkie" "Has a pathological desire to win" "Is a grinder" "is the hardest worker on the team" "spent a year soaking up everything football related". And a lot of statements that aren't even observations - they are just fluff ways of spouting off on intangibles.
Webb may very well turn out good. Or maybe he won't. I don't have any damn idea and I don't even know enough about him to make up a list of intangible attributes.
Problem is that I doubt that will happen. I feel that there is going to be a run on QBs as has happened frequently over the last 7-8 years or so.