Listening to Chris Cooley here in DC a couple days ago and they were discussing who the Giants should draft. Cooley is not a total homer for the Skins and has some good insight.
He said that McAdoo's run scheme was "garbage" and put both the running backs and OL in positions where they could not succeed, which made it difficult to know how much of the problems in the run game were talent.
This definitely lends credence to the criticism of some of the scheme itself this year and how much improvement can be made by just having a better scheme along with hopefully an influx of talent.
I was wondering what others might have seen in the scheme that was defective.
That said, what is interesting is that the run game did pick up a little bit once McAdoo was fired.
Hard to take too much from that though. We had nothing at WR and we had a bunch of kids and FA's playing on the Oline. We basiclaly went two TE's, straight ahead stuff and caught some teams napping.
I never put too much into stats when the season is down the tubes and or a game is out of control (i.e. passing yards and even scores in a game where you lose by 20 plus).
When Dante Scarnecchia left, their OL was a complete mess. So bad that they had to drag him out of retirement, and he came in and completely rebuilt it. He got a guy like Marcus Cannon, who is AWFUL, to play so well that he got big money for it.
Our OL coaching not only didnt improve anyone, it actually made players like Richburg and Flowers regress.
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running game ranking...
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
In 2015 we scored 420 points, good for 6th in the NFL
In 2016 we scored 310 points, good for 26th in the NFL.
Same line.
And I don't want to hear the "garbage time" argument. The 2015 Giants lost 6 games where they were tied or had the lead with under 2 minutes to play.
In 2015, we scored over 20 points 6 times, over 30 6 times, and over 40 once.
In 2016, we scored over 20 points 7 times. That's it.
18th ain't that bad, all things considered. However they did it, run or pass, it was the same line.
2015 we had a shitty defense and were playing in games that we had to pass all game adnd teams allowed a lot of garbage points.
Coaches need to find kids who have the right tools, and mold them into the player they want.
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
Thanks Reese.
But least we forget that Reese had become a huge problem as well and in fact he allowed McAdoo to happen. I have zero insight to the Giants organization beyond what’s public but it had all the signs of dysfunctional leadership. There may have been a time when JR was working hard and making the right moves but for the past 5 years or more the organization was a mess. At the end we heard rumors of Marc Ross and the Giants being lazy and Reese always seemed super arrogant and blamed others for failure. I’m sure Reese was telling Mara that Coughlin was the problem - and there was some truth to that - and so Mara allowed the TC coaching regime to be dismantled piece by piece. When it was super obvious that McAdoo and Reese were broken beyond repair, Mara fired them.
So, the coaching sucked, there were personnel issues, both talent and attitude, on the field and in the front office and the team predictably imploded. But it’s a whole new crew now and I really think we’re back in the right track.
Point being...a lot of our yards were piled up in those seasons bc opponents were often playing coverage and giving up short passes and running play gains to protect against the deep pass.
I agree with those saying regardless of the stats, Giants haven’t been able to run the ball effectively when they really need to - to kill some clock, convert on short yardage, or hold a lead, in several years.
Our OL has looked mostly awful the last few seasons...but to the question about scheme - there are several other teams that manage an effective running game without a lot of talent on the OL
Excited to see what Schurmur can do, after an offseason of roster work by DG
That is not garbage time. Getting blown out and putting up a meaningless TD when you're losing by 30 is garbage time.
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
Bradshaw was probably in the backfield, I know that much.
That is not garbage time. Getting blown out and putting up a meaningless TD when you're losing by 30 is garbage time.
Garbage time isn’t the right characterization to me - my point is the nature of those games allowed for lots of yards. I think McAdoo’s ability as an OC and play caller was overrated in those seasons. We still struggled to run the ball effectively to put teams away
Eli being better than lots of people give him credit for plus OBJ being insane is what kept us in games and helped us win
The difference in a shootout and a blowout is would be our offense's inability to keep up, which was not the problem.
The difference in a shootout and a blowout is would be our offense's inability to keep up, which was not the problem.
I think we’re on the same page here, not disagreeing with you. My point is regardless of whether our offense put up yards or not in different games, our running game was rarely ever effective when it was most needed.
No need to convince me our defense sucked in those seasons
Not only did McAdoo's scheming sucked, his playcalling was worse.
You'll never convince me that had we kept Tom Coughlin one more year and the offense stayed the same, that would have been a Superbowl caliber team.
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
For all we know, the Eagles completely tricked us into hiring McAdoo.
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
One things for certain, that trophy case would still be empty.
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
So, the Giants had the worst running game, the year they won the SB.
Not much of a correlation between where the running game ranks and actual W-L.
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haha, you just have to laugh in hindsight...
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
For all we know, the Eagles completely tricked us into hiring McAdoo.
I actually suggested this at the time and got roasted for it.
(shrug)
That was funny. :)
Ownership, WTF happened man? What did you guys see in BM that made you think he was the answer?
The Mara/Tisch combo has me concerned due to some of the decisions that have been made over the past few years both with players and coaches.
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In comment 13840204 Britt in VA said:
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haha, you just have to laugh in hindsight...
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
For all we know, the Eagles completely tricked us into hiring McAdoo.
I actually suggested this at the time and got roasted for it.
(shrug)
Arc, your suggestion looks damn good in hindsight. God, Ben McAdoo was a disaster.
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
From the linked article:
"WE talk about a positive work environment, and how important that is to growing, learning, teaching, and having a process," McAdoo said in a recent interview with NJ Advance Media. "The better your environment, the more it cultivates teaching and learning. It works together."
And:
"Don't ever forget [teaching]," he said in a 2012 interview when he was the Packers' quarterback coach. "I believe i'm a good teacher, and i'm working at being a great teacher. I want to be the best teacher."
Link - ( New Window )
Running game and defense starting improving late in the season and that continued into the playoffs.
But the 2011 Giants were largely carried by Eli Manning's MVP-type season, Victor Cruz, and Hakeem Nicks. Nicks' 2011 playoff performance may be one of the most under-reported sports stories.
Not only did McAdoo's scheming sucked, his playcalling was worse.
And suddenly there felt like a lot more want-to was on display.
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
So true. In that game vs Philly where they couldn't score from inside the 1 yard line, I've never been so sure of an outcome then when I saw them line up on 4th and 1 in a power formation and try to run Darkwa up the gut. I knew they didn't have a chance.
It's pretty sad that they had to rely on fade route when on the 1 yard line because they couldn't win the Line of Scrimmage.
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
I think this is the best way to judge a running game.. back in 2007 I was confident that when we need 1-3 yards.. our running game will get that.. Its probably more important than YPC, or total yards or rushing TD..
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The running game picked up when McAdoo was gone because we actually committed to running the football and used formations that were appropriate to do so.
Not only did McAdoo's scheming sucked, his playcalling was worse.
And suddenly there felt like a lot more want-to was on display.
Yup.
It seemed to me like Eli was god awful at the sneak. I wonder if that impacted his use of the sneak or he just doesn't like it. So, if TC had a Brady or Rodgers who are both very good, would he use it more? I'm not sure what the answer would be.
That said, what is interesting is that the run game did pick up a little bit once McAdoo was fired.
Yes it did. Sullivan put some rather innovative plays in the game. Having Evan Engram run the ball on 1 play for 14 yards surprised the defense.
If it's 4th and inches the defense knows they do not have to concern themselves with a QB sneak. C'mon, you have to run that play at least once in a while.
and the way he fooled defenses by playing possum with the same formation all game until they were second guessing themselves waiting for the adjustments by the 4th quarter led to some very satisfying victories.
Consistency. Passing game Creativity. Playing mind games with the opposing defense. And getting all out passion to win from all 53 players was his strength.
Cooley is a typical arm chair critic looking for some small exception that just looks like a weakness and pretending its a bigger indicator of MacAdoos over all performance that it is.
and the way he fooled defenses by playing possum with the same formation all game until they were second guessing themselves waiting for the adjustments by the 4th quarter led to some very satisfying victories.
Consistency. Passing game Creativity. Playing mind games with the opposing defense. And getting all out passion to win from all 53 players was his strength.
Cooley is a typical arm chair critic looking for some small exception that just looks like a weakness and pretending its a bigger indicator of MacAdoos over all performance that it is.
TOO FUNNY!
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running game ranking...
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
In 2015 we scored 420 points, good for 6th in the NFL
In 2016 we scored 310 points, good for 26th in the NFL.
Same line.
And I don't want to hear the "garbage time" argument. The 2015 Giants lost 6 games where they were tied or had the lead with under 2 minutes to play.
In 2015, we scored over 20 points 6 times, over 30 6 times, and over 40 once.
In 2016, we scored over 20 points 7 times. That's it.
18th ain't that bad, all things considered. However they did it, run or pass, it was the same line.
Specifically what changed with the scheme after McAdoo became HC?
and the way he fooled defenses by playing possum with the same formation all game until they were second guessing themselves waiting for the adjustments by the 4th quarter led to some very satisfying victories.
Consistency. Passing game Creativity. Playing mind games with the opposing defense. And getting all out passion to win from all 53 players was his strength.
Cooley is a typical arm chair critic looking for some small exception that just looks like a weakness and pretending its a bigger indicator of MacAdoos over all performance that it is.
Don't forget brilliantly swapping in Geno for that critical game in Oakland. They hadn't seen him play in years and had no tape, so they were completely confused. Stroke of genius.
sb from NYT Forum : 12:37 pm : link : reply
...from 2014-15 to 2016-17. In McAdoo's first two years here, the Giants had a top 10 offense. Then after Coughlin it deteriorates.
Specifically what changed with the scheme after McAdoo became HC?
The offense went from a more vertical offense to a short passing offense:
- In 2014 and 2015 we were in the Top 10 of plays over 40 yards. In 2016 and 17 we were near the bottom (and on the bottom in 2017).
- In 14 and 15 we didn't have any one personnel grouping on the field for more than 63% of the plays. In 2016, the 11 personnel grouping was used 91% of the time - the most any one personnel grouping had been used in the modern era
- The slant was a staple in 14 and 15 as well as a set up to the slant and go and the seam route. In 16 and 17 the slant was used as our predominant route with the majority of dumpoffs underneath (this is strictly an objective observation - no stat to back it up)
- The is a damning stat on the seam route, however. In 14 and 15 we utilized the seam route 17th in the league. In 16 and 17, we were dead last.
It seemed that in 16 and 17, McAdoo stripped out any remaining elements of TC's offense, with disasterous results.
If Barkley is not targeted at 2 then i'd love to see DG target Michel or Johnson in round 2 to improve overall depth at that position.
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I'd like to hear a detailed explanation of how the offense changed...
sb from NYT Forum : 12:37 pm : link : reply
...from 2014-15 to 2016-17. In McAdoo's first two years here, the Giants had a top 10 offense. Then after Coughlin it deteriorates.
Specifically what changed with the scheme after McAdoo became HC?
The offense went from a more vertical offense to a short passing offense:
- In 2014 and 2015 we were in the Top 10 of plays over 40 yards. In 2016 and 17 we were near the bottom (and on the bottom in 2017).
- In 14 and 15 we didn't have any one personnel grouping on the field for more than 63% of the plays. In 2016, the 11 personnel grouping was used 91% of the time - the most any one personnel grouping had been used in the modern era
- The slant was a staple in 14 and 15 as well as a set up to the slant and go and the seam route. In 16 and 17 the slant was used as our predominant route with the majority of dumpoffs underneath (this is strictly an objective observation - no stat to back it up)
- The is a damning stat on the seam route, however. In 14 and 15 we utilized the seam route 17th in the league. In 16 and 17, we were dead last.
It seemed that in 16 and 17, McAdoo stripped out any remaining elements of TC's offense, with disasterous results.
This is interesting FM. I have not seen anyone share those numbers before.
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running game ranking...
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
So, the Giants had the worst running game, the year they won the SB.
Not much of a correlation between where the running game ranks and actual W-L.
The running game did not produce a great yards per carry average (under 4) but they never stopped trying to run the ball and it was an effective running game when Bradshaw could play. The running game was not as bad as it is portrayed.
Coughlin did a better job covering for it, scheming around it. And
McAdoo got exposed.
Looking strictly at the offense:
Coughlin:
2012: 6th in points scored
2013: 28th in points scored (offense "broken" Gilbride fired, but this was where the line really fell apart)
2014: 13th points scored
2015: 6th points scored
McAdoo:
2016: 26th points scored
2017: 31st points scored
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In comment 13840052 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
running game ranking...
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
In 2015 we scored 420 points, good for 6th in the NFL
In 2016 we scored 310 points, good for 26th in the NFL.
Same line.
And I don't want to hear the "garbage time" argument. The 2015 Giants lost 6 games where they were tied or had the lead with under 2 minutes to play.
In 2015, we scored over 20 points 6 times, over 30 6 times, and over 40 once.
In 2016, we scored over 20 points 7 times. That's it.
18th ain't that bad, all things considered. However they did it, run or pass, it was the same line.
2015 we had a shitty defense and were playing in games that we had to pass all game adnd teams allowed a lot of garbage points.
Normally, this logic would hold; however, teams realized that the Giants under McAdoo couldn't even run against cover defense...so they could basically focus on taking away the passing game and let the DLs take care of the run.
That said, what is interesting is that the run game did pick up a little bit once McAdoo was fired.
As bad as the running games were in 14-15 the offense as a whole was still very productive. The running game wasn't contributing to a system wide failure like 16-17. Mcadoo made everything worse.
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running game ranking...
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
So, the Giants had the worst running game, the year they won the SB.
Not much of a correlation between where the running game ranks and actual W-L.
I've said this before, but re the 2011 Giants - I still think they were actually a 2-14 level team that was carried to a championship by the closest thing the NFL has ever seen to a 1 man show.