Listening to Chris Cooley here in DC a couple days ago and they were discussing who the Giants should draft. Cooley is not a total homer for the Skins and has some good insight.
He said that McAdoo's run scheme was "garbage" and put both the running backs and OL in positions where they could not succeed, which made it difficult to know how much of the problems in the run game were talent.
This definitely lends credence to the criticism of some of the scheme itself this year and how much improvement can be made by just having a better scheme along with hopefully an influx of talent.
I was wondering what others might have seen in the scheme that was defective.
If you need Aaron rodgers to run it to be successful, it might be time to realize the scheme sucked.
Good coaches can scheme around their weakness (O-line).
He was an absolute failure of a coach.
That said, what is interesting is that the run game did pick up a little bit once McAdoo was fired.
Good coaches can scheme around their weakness (O-line).
He was an absolute failure of a coach.
It's pretty hard to "scheme" around a bad OL.
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
In 2015 we scored 420 points, good for 6th in the NFL
In 2016 we scored 310 points, good for 26th in the NFL.
Same line.
And I don't want to hear the "garbage time" argument. The 2015 Giants lost 6 games where they were tied or had the lead with under 2 minutes to play.
In 2015, we scored over 20 points 6 times, over 30 6 times, and over 40 once.
In 2016, we scored over 20 points 7 times. That's it.
18th ain't that bad, all things considered. However they did it, run or pass, it was the same line.
Still how he was held in such high regard given the premise that his system is flawed is baffling.
He was a one trick pony, but that said, that offensive line was bad.
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especially in 2016 when the offense was healthy, there is no way in hell we should have finished the season on a 6 game streak of not scoring 20 points.
Good coaches can scheme around their weakness (O-line).
He was an absolute failure of a coach.
It's pretty hard to "scheme" around a bad OL.
Maybe, but you could try to give help. Did they not have 3 viable TEs and a FB? Could they not have given help to the tackles by employing them together at times? Isn't that "scheming" to help the OL? McAdoo was a colossal failure and terrible hire even as an OC. His stubborness and scheme failure were camouflaged as OC because the offense was a hybrid of his and TCs. When had had free reign to employee his shit offense in full he and it were exposed.
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
yeah... even when we had Jacobs it was a struggle to pick up one yard.
You seem to be making the same mistake Reese made... saying the personnel that made up the 2015 line was adequate.
In no way am I giving a pass to coaching, but this offensive line has been an issue for some time. Did Solari become a bad coach when he came to the Giants? That doesn't make sense.
Coughlin did a better job covering for it, scheming around it. And
McAdoo got exposed.
Looking strictly at the offense:
Coughlin:
2012: 6th in points scored
2013: 28th in points scored (offense "broken" Gilbride fired, but this was where the line really fell apart)
2014: 13th points scored
2015: 6th points scored
McAdoo:
2016: 26th points scored
2017: 31st points scored
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especially in 2016 when the offense was healthy, there is no way in hell we should have finished the season on a 6 game streak of not scoring 20 points.
Good coaches can scheme around their weakness (O-line).
He was an absolute failure of a coach.
It's pretty hard to "scheme" around a bad OL.
That said, what is interesting is that the run game did pick up a little bit once McAdoo was fired.
Hard to take too much from that though. We had nothing at WR and we had a bunch of kids and FA's playing on the Oline. We basiclaly went two TE's, straight ahead stuff and caught some teams napping.
I never put too much into stats when the season is down the tubes and or a game is out of control (i.e. passing yards and even scores in a game where you lose by 20 plus).
When Dante Scarnecchia left, their OL was a complete mess. So bad that they had to drag him out of retirement, and he came in and completely rebuilt it. He got a guy like Marcus Cannon, who is AWFUL, to play so well that he got big money for it.
Our OL coaching not only didnt improve anyone, it actually made players like Richburg and Flowers regress.
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running game ranking...
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
In 2015 we scored 420 points, good for 6th in the NFL
In 2016 we scored 310 points, good for 26th in the NFL.
Same line.
And I don't want to hear the "garbage time" argument. The 2015 Giants lost 6 games where they were tied or had the lead with under 2 minutes to play.
In 2015, we scored over 20 points 6 times, over 30 6 times, and over 40 once.
In 2016, we scored over 20 points 7 times. That's it.
18th ain't that bad, all things considered. However they did it, run or pass, it was the same line.
2015 we had a shitty defense and were playing in games that we had to pass all game adnd teams allowed a lot of garbage points.
Coaches need to find kids who have the right tools, and mold them into the player they want.
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
Thanks Reese.
But least we forget that Reese had become a huge problem as well and in fact he allowed McAdoo to happen. I have zero insight to the Giants organization beyond what’s public but it had all the signs of dysfunctional leadership. There may have been a time when JR was working hard and making the right moves but for the past 5 years or more the organization was a mess. At the end we heard rumors of Marc Ross and the Giants being lazy and Reese always seemed super arrogant and blamed others for failure. I’m sure Reese was telling Mara that Coughlin was the problem - and there was some truth to that - and so Mara allowed the TC coaching regime to be dismantled piece by piece. When it was super obvious that McAdoo and Reese were broken beyond repair, Mara fired them.
So, the coaching sucked, there were personnel issues, both talent and attitude, on the field and in the front office and the team predictably imploded. But it’s a whole new crew now and I really think we’re back in the right track.
Point being...a lot of our yards were piled up in those seasons bc opponents were often playing coverage and giving up short passes and running play gains to protect against the deep pass.
I agree with those saying regardless of the stats, Giants haven’t been able to run the ball effectively when they really need to - to kill some clock, convert on short yardage, or hold a lead, in several years.
Our OL has looked mostly awful the last few seasons...but to the question about scheme - there are several other teams that manage an effective running game without a lot of talent on the OL
Excited to see what Schurmur can do, after an offseason of roster work by DG
That is not garbage time. Getting blown out and putting up a meaningless TD when you're losing by 30 is garbage time.
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
Bradshaw was probably in the backfield, I know that much.
That is not garbage time. Getting blown out and putting up a meaningless TD when you're losing by 30 is garbage time.
Garbage time isn’t the right characterization to me - my point is the nature of those games allowed for lots of yards. I think McAdoo’s ability as an OC and play caller was overrated in those seasons. We still struggled to run the ball effectively to put teams away
Eli being better than lots of people give him credit for plus OBJ being insane is what kept us in games and helped us win
The difference in a shootout and a blowout is would be our offense's inability to keep up, which was not the problem.
The difference in a shootout and a blowout is would be our offense's inability to keep up, which was not the problem.
I think we’re on the same page here, not disagreeing with you. My point is regardless of whether our offense put up yards or not in different games, our running game was rarely ever effective when it was most needed.
No need to convince me our defense sucked in those seasons
Not only did McAdoo's scheming sucked, his playcalling was worse.
You'll never convince me that had we kept Tom Coughlin one more year and the offense stayed the same, that would have been a Superbowl caliber team.
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
For all we know, the Eagles completely tricked us into hiring McAdoo.
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
One things for certain, that trophy case would still be empty.
2011: 32nd
2012: 14th
2013: 29th
2014: 23rd
2015: 18th
2016: 29th
2017: 26th
So, the Giants had the worst running game, the year they won the SB.
Not much of a correlation between where the running game ranks and actual W-L.
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haha, you just have to laugh in hindsight...
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
For all we know, the Eagles completely tricked us into hiring McAdoo.
I actually suggested this at the time and got roasted for it.
(shrug)
That was funny. :)
Ownership, WTF happened man? What did you guys see in BM that made you think he was the answer?
The Mara/Tisch combo has me concerned due to some of the decisions that have been made over the past few years both with players and coaches.
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In comment 13840204 Britt in VA said:
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haha, you just have to laugh in hindsight...
Too bad we didn't, for multiple reasons.
For all we know, the Eagles completely tricked us into hiring McAdoo.
I actually suggested this at the time and got roasted for it.
(shrug)
Arc, your suggestion looks damn good in hindsight. God, Ben McAdoo was a disaster.
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
From the linked article:
"WE talk about a positive work environment, and how important that is to growing, learning, teaching, and having a process," McAdoo said in a recent interview with NJ Advance Media. "The better your environment, the more it cultivates teaching and learning. It works together."
And:
"Don't ever forget [teaching]," he said in a 2012 interview when he was the Packers' quarterback coach. "I believe i'm a good teacher, and i'm working at being a great teacher. I want to be the best teacher."
Link - ( New Window )
Running game and defense starting improving late in the season and that continued into the playoffs.
But the 2011 Giants were largely carried by Eli Manning's MVP-type season, Victor Cruz, and Hakeem Nicks. Nicks' 2011 playoff performance may be one of the most under-reported sports stories.
Not only did McAdoo's scheming sucked, his playcalling was worse.
And suddenly there felt like a lot more want-to was on display.
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
So true. In that game vs Philly where they couldn't score from inside the 1 yard line, I've never been so sure of an outcome then when I saw them line up on 4th and 1 in a power formation and try to run Darkwa up the gut. I knew they didn't have a chance.
It's pretty sad that they had to rely on fade route when on the 1 yard line because they couldn't win the Line of Scrimmage.
but I can't remember the last time I was glad the Giants were facing 3rd-and-1.
I think this is the best way to judge a running game.. back in 2007 I was confident that when we need 1-3 yards.. our running game will get that.. Its probably more important than YPC, or total yards or rushing TD..
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The running game picked up when McAdoo was gone because we actually committed to running the football and used formations that were appropriate to do so.
Not only did McAdoo's scheming sucked, his playcalling was worse.
And suddenly there felt like a lot more want-to was on display.
Yup.