Firstly let me say that I really like Olivier Vernon. He is a good player. But looking at the business side of things, I think we should consider trading Olivier Vernon and here is why.
I don't think it is sustainable long term to have Vernon and JPP; both are signed through 2020.
Cap Numbers:
Olivier Vernon: $17m in 2018, $19.5m in 2019 and $19.5m in 2020
Jason Pierre-Paul: $17.5m in 2018, $19.5m in 2019 and $17.5m in 2020
Given JPP's guaranteed money, Vernon is the only realistic candidate to move. I think either player could move to a Chandler Jones style role at OLB (while Vernon has experience, the Cardinals chased JPP strongly before bringing in Chandler Jones).
If we traded Vernon, we would get an additional $5m in cap room. The key however, will be clearing $19.5m in 2019 and 2020. That will help considerably in affording the future contracts of Beckham and Landon Collins and provide resources to help reload the roster to better suit what Shurmur and Bettcher want to do.
Given the limited availability of top end DEs in either free agency or the draft. I would expect that we could likely get a day 2 pick. The Jets got a second round and WR for Sheldon Richardson, I would expect Olivier Vernon would at least comparable value, particularly in a year where the top tier options in free agency and the draft are limited.
As far as teams picking up Vernon's contract, there is plenty of money around.
There's really not a good reason to get rid of him, especially if he is healthy.
Deep issues like linebacker and Oline can't be resolved in just 1 year. By the 2019 season, the Giants should be in good shape.
You want to trade our number 1 pass rusher for a team that can't really rush the QB other than him?
I agree, it still adds $5m this year. The key through is getting the contract off the books to enable future deals like OBJ, Landon Collins etc
I think Tampa Bay would be very interested, they need a DE badly and they have over $70m in camp space right now.
The Lions could be in play if Ansah leaves.
I could even see the Browns being interested if they want a quality bookend for Garrett. Ogbah and Nassib only got 7 sacks between them last year.
While I understand your position, I think that is very premature.
Eli currently has a cap number of $23.2m in 2019. If the Giants do rebound in a big way, he may be hard to cut to trade. I am not convinced Eli is guaranteed to be done after this season.
The other factor of course is whether we have the next guy in the building and that he is ready to take over.
And why is any team giving up anything for a very expensive DE that has frankly not produced anywhere near his contract number? That math doesn't add up. A team that needs a DE can get Vernon's production for a lot less money elsewhere.
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paying hem won’t be a problem. Eli will be off the books, we don’t need to start cutting other core players.
While I understand your position, I think that is very premature.
Eli currently has a cap number of $23.2m in 2019. If the Giants do rebound in a big way, he may be hard to cut to trade. I am not convinced Eli is guaranteed to be done after this season.
The other factor of course is whether we have the next guy in the building and that he is ready to take over.
Why will Eli be hard to cut next year if we do not rebound? His cost doesn’t change based on our record...
We could cut him with the June 1 designation. That would clear up $13m in 2018, $15.5 in 2019 and 2020.
That kind of money would be enough to sign a free agent such as G Andrew Norwell for example.
I am not sure I am on board with this approach, but it could be something to consider.
I actually like Olivier Vernon quite a bit. However, given how much retooling we need to do and needs elsewhere, having the two of the top DE/OLB contracts in NFL is sustainable (only Von Miller ($19m) and Muhammad Wilkerson ($17.2m) average more than the $17m per year we are paying JPP and OV.
We could cut him with the June 1 designation. That would clear up $13m in 2018, $15.5 in 2019 and 2020.
That kind of money would be enough to sign a free agent such as G Andrew Norwell for example.
I am not sure I am on board with this approach, but it could be something to consider.
I actually like Olivier Vernon quite a bit. However, given how much retooling we need to do and needs elsewhere, having the two of the top DE/OLB contracts in NFL is sustainable (only Von Miller ($19m) and Muhammad Wilkerson ($17.2m) average more than the $17m per year we are paying JPP and OV.
And so, what do they do for DEs? Pete I would not trade Vernon or JPP this year. Wait and see what happens this year. See what Bettcher devises for a defense. The Giants, according to Abrams, are not restricted in anyway on signing players..
Why? Oh because of his contract. Great... love these discussions.
I give up.
The Giants will cut Vernon if and when they feel he can't play anymore or is a negative presence here. He's a good player by every metric. Forget his salary. The Giants will worry about that when the time comes.
Vernon and/or JPP are very affordable to get rid of next year if the team so chooses and if they perform decently, we can actually keep them at a reasonable cost.
We are not in cap trouble.
djm : 8:39 pm : link : reply
That money and contracts have ruined much of the objective fan talk on player and team building debates.
What is more likely true is that posters like the OP just don't understand the cap all that well or people think the cap operates like it did in the 90's where constraints were real and problematic.
I think the OP is under the impression that trading Vernon gets his salary off the books, especially when he says it "saves" us $5M
And yes the op is completely impossible.
If you trade him, you better be getting something good back, because you’re handing your trading partner a 3 year $45m contract with virtually no guarantees for a guy with pretty great upside. That’s not a salary dump.
Truth of the matter is that you don’t see a lot of trades like this. It may not be as stupid as some here would have you believe, but it all depends on the return.
Both JPP and Vernon are good 2 way ends that are hard to find
Vernon, snacks, Tomlinson, and JPP is a top D-line in the right defense.
Eli is 37 now. Jan 3rd 2019 he turns 38.
You keep him and make the decision on him and JPP next year, based on how they played this year...
/end thread
Second, Olivier Vernon isn't a scrub. The guy is really good. He plays the run and he can rush the passer.
He actually had a fantastic 2016 and he played with a fucked up hand for a good portion of that season.
He's an excellent football player. I have no idea why people are in a rush to get rid of him.
It makes no sense cap-wise or for the Giants in general.
But fans are going to have to used to the idea that the cap isn't what it used to be. The League over the last three seasons has raised the cap by about $10, $10 and $12 million dollars. They have told people to expect another $10 to $12 million dollar increase for 2018.
It's much harder to get into cap problems when the cap is increasing annually by so much. And the Giants start the offseason a healthy $24 million under, and with the player who consumes the most cap space by far, Eli, coming off the salary list if not this year then next year.
The team can always, if necessary, borrow against next year's cap, knowing that Eli's huge salary cap hit will be gone by 2019, presumably to be replaced by a rookie QB salary.
So the Giants see no problem with the cap and being able to sign the players whom they want to sign. Fans are going to have to reconcile themselves to the fact that the salary cap is just not the great ogre it used to be, or there's going to be a lot of wasted ink here over the next months.
Sure we can trade JPP, OV, DRC, Jenkins, Collins, Apple and Harrison some because they are overpaid others because in reality this team will not win in the next two years. These are the guys who repsent all the problems with big FA contracts that don’t work out for the most part along with young guys who will overvalue their skills. Yes dead money will be an issue but only for one year then you also get to out from the Eli big money June cut.
Or you can continue to hope for the great turnaround why because these guys are really good, they are who they showed you they are. The Giants have 24+ mil in CAP space the other five win teams or less for the most part have 60+ mil in CAP space. There is nothing wrong with admitting you made some mistakes the problems come when you continue to make the same mistakes.
We are not a cap problem team. We are not restricted from making moves to make the team better.
What we were was a poorly coached team with a GM who failed at good roster construction.
The cap is actually an area we are fine in, both for 2018 and going forward the next few years.
All of those moves helped them improve, even if they did incur a cap hit. The Giants should do everything to improve the team long term, Ben if it causes a short term problem.
Start the rebuild you have a reason not to expect much but if you keep these same guys and get the same results as this year is that a good strategy? This team is broken don’t try patching holes and dreaming oh we are good now that’s BS.
That isn't "taking out the trash", that is gutting your defense, including some young and high-performing players.
It isn't hard to grasp - we aren't in cap trouble. We have a new coach and GM to lead prudent roster turnover, and we have a #2 pick that gives us a lot of options.
I think many are stuck in the 90's when teams took a few years to rebuild and the salary cap was a problem.
In the 90's, there was an average of 34% turnover year to year in the playoffs. Since 2000, the playoffs year to year have had a 53% turnover.
Rebuilds are just a figment of imagination anymore.
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There are other options available with Olivier Vernon.
We could cut him with the June 1 designation. That would clear up $13m in 2018, $15.5 in 2019 and 2020.
That kind of money would be enough to sign a free agent such as G Andrew Norwell for example.
I am not sure I am on board with this approach, but it could be something to consider.
I actually like Olivier Vernon quite a bit. However, given how much retooling we need to do and needs elsewhere, having the two of the top DE/OLB contracts in NFL is sustainable (only Von Miller ($19m) and Muhammad Wilkerson ($17.2m) average more than the $17m per year we are paying JPP and OV.
And so, what do they do for DEs? Pete I would not trade Vernon or JPP this year. Wait and see what happens this year. See what Bettcher devises for a defense. The Giants, according to Abrams, are not restricted in anyway on signing players..
Good point. Looking at what the Cardinals did is a good option. The scheme Bettcher used most last year was a 2-4-5.
We are more likely to move to more of a 3-4 as our 'base'defence
Bettcher didn't use 4-3 fronts much.
My thinking for the 3-4 is move JPP and Avery Moss to OLB. Resign Kennard as the other OLB and we will bring in someone else, maybe a Alex Okafor or someone in the draft (there are a few good 3-4 OLB options), perhaps someone like a Harold Landry could be on the radar..
As a 3-4 DE we have guys like Okwara, Williams who may be ok. We could also look at a free agent like DaQuan Jones or maybe someone like Dashawn Hand in the draft.
Freeing up cap space does give us more flexibility to upgrade our ILBs in free agency if we choose (which is a big priority this off-season imho). Bettcher prefers fast athletic ILBs.
I am not saying we should our shouldn't. It really is all about how we manage resources to get the best bang for buck. I don't think we should be wary of restructuring our roster just because 'he is a good player'. Vernon is a good player whom I like, but I do think it should be on the table.
The Giants will cut Vernon if and when they feel he can't play anymore or is a negative presence here. He's a good player by every metric. Forget his salary. The Giants will worry about that when the time comes.