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The Film Room Ep. 67: Quenton Nelson is (probably) a future

Tom from LI : 2/27/2018 12:18 pm
All Pro...

Damn this kid is special.


I think he immediately makes our oline better.
Impressive - ( New Window )
If none of the QB's fit the bill,  
Keith : 2/27/2018 12:22 pm : link
this is what the focus should be. Fix the OL. We have major weapons on offense as is, we have a very young RB on the roster that showed promise last year. This kid would do wonders for our OL with a few signings.
Though to be fair  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/27/2018 12:26 pm : link
adding 3 league-average guys makes the line better.

Can 1 guy create enough of an impact that it's worth passing over a player that actually touches a football?
Yes.  
Keith : 2/27/2018 12:29 pm : link
Games are won and lost in the trenches. To me, that needs to be the primary focus of this offseason.
Right off the bat  
mrvax : 2/27/2018 12:31 pm : link
this video makes a mistake. He claims that a guard hasn't been selected in the top 5 since 2001. Redskins took one a few years ago.
arguably the highest floor of any player in the draft.  
Heisenberg : 2/27/2018 12:36 pm : link
looks like a day one starter and ten year pro
Question for Nelson guys:  
mrvax : 2/27/2018 12:40 pm : link
If the Giants win the Norwell sweepstakes and then go on to pick Nelson, which guy moves from LG to RG? Then you just hope he can make the switch?
The best clip of Nelson that I saw in pass portection  
Stan in LA : 2/27/2018 12:44 pm : link
Was when he took a DT by the shoulder pads, threw him to the ground, and sat on him! Funny.
RE: Question for Nelson guys:  
Peppers : 2/27/2018 12:46 pm : link
In comment 13844108 mrvax said:
Quote:
If the Giants win the Norwell sweepstakes and then go on to pick Nelson, which guy moves from LG to RG? Then you just hope he can make the switch?


If they pick Nelson @2 after signing Norwell, I'd assume its because they see he has potential as a RT.
RE: arguably the highest floor of any player in the draft.  
UConn4523 : 2/27/2018 12:47 pm : link
In comment 13844105 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
looks like a day one starter and ten year pro


He was a projected Tackle, not the same. He got switched to a Guard in camp.
Nelson looks like a RG  
JonC : 2/27/2018 12:47 pm : link
I haven't seen much of Norwell, but he also looks like a RG.

Imv, it doesn't make a ton of sense to spend over $10M per on an OG when you don't have your tackles sorted yet. If they've got their eye on Nelson, I'd think they'd pass on Norwell.
Typically, your LG is mobile and agile for a big dude  
JonC : 2/27/2018 12:56 pm : link
meaning he can trap, pull and lead, get to the second level of the defense, hit moving targets (easier said than done), etc.

These two dudes both look like RGs.
Trade down then  
allstarjim : 2/27/2018 1:01 pm : link
If you want Nelson, I have no problem with that. But at that pick we'll have either Barkley or Darnold in our laps, and possibly both. As good as Nelson is, he's still a guard, and guards don't make plays. Not that they are not important, but a player with the ball in their hand is always going to be more important than a guard. There are also several QB needy teams behind us. So trade down with the Jets, because they will want to jump Denver, and, depending on who Cleveland takes at #1 overall, they'll want to move ahead of them as well.

Cleveland at #4 and Indianapolis at #3 could both go for Nelson. But I doubt that happens. To me, at least 3 of the top 6 picks are going to be Quarterbacks. And one of the others is going to be Saquon Barkley. So if you're at 6, you are virtually guaranteed to either get Nelson or Bradley Chubb. Personally, I think Chubb is going to go before Nelson because traditionally defensive end talents go before guards. And Bradley Chubb is a phenomenal talent.
RE: Right off the bat  
Milton : 2/27/2018 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13844099 mrvax said:
Quote:
this video makes a mistake. He claims that a guard hasn't been selected in the top 5 since 2001. Redskins took one a few years ago.
Maybe he meant one that played guard in college.
RE: Nelson looks like a RG  
TommyWiseau : 2/27/2018 1:02 pm : link
In comment 13844121 JonC said:
Quote:
I haven't seen much of Norwell, but he also looks like a RG.

Imv, it doesn't make a ton of sense to spend over $10M per on an OG when you don't have your tackles sorted yet. If they've got their eye on Nelson, I'd think they'd pass on Norwell.


So a guy who played at an All Pro level at LG is a RG?
RE: RE: Right off the bat  
Milton : 2/27/2018 1:07 pm : link
In comment 13844137 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13844099 mrvax said:


Quote:


this video makes a mistake. He claims that a guard hasn't been selected in the top 5 since 2001. Redskins took one a few years ago.

Maybe he meant one that played guard in college.
Scratch that, Leonard Davis played left tackle in college and he is the guy he is referring that was drafted in the top five in 2001.
RE: RE: Nelson looks like a RG  
JonC : 2/27/2018 1:18 pm : link
In comment 13844139 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
In comment 13844121 JonC said:


Quote:


I haven't seen much of Norwell, but he also looks like a RG.

Imv, it doesn't make a ton of sense to spend over $10M per on an OG when you don't have your tackles sorted yet. If they've got their eye on Nelson, I'd think they'd pass on Norwell.



So a guy who played at an All Pro level at LG is a RG?


Did Norwell play LG? If so, I retract and stand corrected and will direct mrvax to your post.
Not that I advocate Nelson at 2  
The_Boss : 2/27/2018 1:23 pm : link
But, if the NYG trade down and draft Nelson after signing Norwell and then follow that up and take Price at the top of round 2, that's a pretty formidable interior. Yes they need to figure out the OT situation, but an interior from left to right of Norwell-Price-Nelson is pretty f'ing attractive to think about.
RE: Question for Nelson guys:  
est1986 : 2/27/2018 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13844108 mrvax said:
Quote:
If the Giants win the Norwell sweepstakes and then go on to pick Nelson, which guy moves from LG to RG? Then you just hope he can make the switch?


If we sign an all pro LG and draft the best LG of the past decade in college football we immediately have all pro guards and we don’t give a fuck which one plays RG, it won’t be a problem....
As long as you realize that taking a G anywhere in the top ten  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/27/2018 1:26 pm : link
means that you basically don't get the benefit of the 5th year option on his rookie deal. Top ten picks get an average of the top ten salaries at their position for their 5th year option, and the NFL lumps all OL together for that calculation. If a team takes Nelson, they're going to have to pay top OLT money in that 5th year, or (more likely) give him a long-term 2nd contract a year sooner than they might with a player at a different position.

Not necessarily a dealbreaker, but something to consider in the valuation.
LG and RG  
Joey in VA : 2/27/2018 1:27 pm : link
Will be moot if we run a true zone blocking scheme. Either guard can be asked to pull or lead and those plays won't be a mainstay. The thought of Norwell and Nelson at OG makes me all googly eyed. Eli would douse his drawers if he had those two monsters guarding his A gaps.
RE: Not that I advocate Nelson at 2  
est1986 : 2/27/2018 1:28 pm : link
In comment 13844173 The_Boss said:
Quote:
But, if the NYG trade down and draft Nelson after signing Norwell and then follow that up and take Price at the top of round 2, that's a pretty formidable interior. Yes they need to figure out the OT situation, but an interior from left to right of Norwell-Price-Nelson is pretty f'ing attractive to think about.


C Brett Jones > C Billy Price... IMO. If we draft Nelson in round 1 and sign Norwell I would like to use our other assets to address our other needs. OL is the biggest need but I don’t think that justifies us using all our cap (Norwell) and all our premimum picks (Nelson, Price) on fixing the OL.

If we sign Norwell, resign Pugh and draft Nelson... add those guys with Jones and Flowers and the OL should be a huge upgrade and we can use the other picks to bring in a LB, RB, DB etc...
RE: As long as you realize that taking a G anywhere in the top ten  
est1986 : 2/27/2018 1:32 pm : link
In comment 13844181 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
means that you basically don't get the benefit of the 5th year option on his rookie deal. Top ten picks get an average of the top ten salaries at their position for their 5th year option, and the NFL lumps all OL together for that calculation. If a team takes Nelson, they're going to have to pay top OLT money in that 5th year, or (more likely) give him a long-term 2nd contract a year sooner than they might with a player at a different position.

Not necessarily a dealbreaker, but something to consider in the valuation.


That’s a fair point, I would hope they would think to change the grouping of all OL by then... it’s a dumb rule grouping guards and centers with tackles when they separate defensive tackles from defensive ends. But that’s a bridge we cross when we get there and if Nelson lives up to potential it should be an easy decision to extend.
Nothing would make me  
Stufftherun : 2/27/2018 1:34 pm : link
happier than to find out we have our QB of the future on the current roster, we trade down and pick up this beast. It would immediately plug a massive hole in our sieve of an OL.
If we get Norwell....  
GFAN52 : 2/27/2018 1:35 pm : link
then next focus has to be OT.
RE: RE: Not that I advocate Nelson at 2  
The_Boss : 2/27/2018 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13844185 est1986 said:
Quote:
In comment 13844173 The_Boss said:


Quote:


But, if the NYG trade down and draft Nelson after signing Norwell and then follow that up and take Price at the top of round 2, that's a pretty formidable interior. Yes they need to figure out the OT situation, but an interior from left to right of Norwell-Price-Nelson is pretty f'ing attractive to think about.



C Brett Jones > C Billy Price... IMO. If we draft Nelson in round 1 and sign Norwell I would like to use our other assets to address our other needs. OL is the biggest need but I don’t think that justifies us using all our cap (Norwell) and all our premimum picks (Nelson, Price) on fixing the OL.

If we sign Norwell, resign Pugh and draft Nelson... add those guys with Jones and Flowers and the OL should be a huge upgrade and we can use the other picks to bring in a LB, RB, DB etc...


Disagree on Jones vs Price. I saw Jones get pushed back a bunch late in the year. For what it's worth, NFL.com's pro comparison for Price is LeBentley Charles. Zierlein's final say:

BOTTOM LINE Plays like a Wildling at times with tremendous explosiveness, strength and, almost excessive initial charge. Price's power and leverage give him a huge advantage over most centers in this draft. He should be able to come into the league and deal with NFL power right away. However, his impatience as a blocker and tendency to charge in head-first will be used against him by savvy NFL opponents if he doesn't get it cleaned up. Price is an early starter with Pro Bowl potential.
If trade back  
ryanmkeane : 2/27/2018 1:42 pm : link
a good amount of spots, sure. But there's no chance they take Nelson at 2.
If we sign  
ryanmkeane : 2/27/2018 1:43 pm : link
Norwell, sign me up for RG in round 2 or 3.
RE: As long as you realize that taking a G anywhere in the top ten  
AcidTest : 2/27/2018 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13844181 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
means that you basically don't get the benefit of the 5th year option on his rookie deal. Top ten picks get an average of the top ten salaries at their position for their 5th year option, and the NFL lumps all OL together for that calculation. If a team takes Nelson, they're going to have to pay top OLT money in that 5th year, or (more likely) give him a long-term 2nd contract a year sooner than they might with a player at a different position.

Not necessarily a dealbreaker, but something to consider in the valuation.


Excellent point.
Sy  
ryanmkeane : 2/27/2018 2:19 pm : link
thinks Smith from Auburn is better than Nelson. Not saying I agree...but point is there's good value at guard in this draft. If we took Nelson in the 1st I'd be disappointed.
RE: Nelson looks like a RG  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/27/2018 2:34 pm : link
In comment 13844121 JonC said:
Quote:
I haven't seen much of Norwell, but he also looks like a RG.

Imv, it doesn't make a ton of sense to spend over $10M per on an OG when you don't have your tackles sorted yet. If they've got their eye on Nelson, I'd think they'd pass on Norwell.


Not sure I agree with this. All line positions are important. In the current state of the league, if you have your tackles sorted, opposing defenses are going to attack your weakness anyway. You can't really afford to have any soft spots. If you're happy with your tackles but you're trying to hide your guards, guess where you're going to get schemed.
Tom,  
batman11 : 2/27/2018 2:54 pm : link
These videos are great! Thanks for posting.
RE: RE: Nelson looks like a RG  
JonC : 2/27/2018 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13844310 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13844121 JonC said:


Quote:


I haven't seen much of Norwell, but he also looks like a RG.

Imv, it doesn't make a ton of sense to spend over $10M per on an OG when you don't have your tackles sorted yet. If they've got their eye on Nelson, I'd think they'd pass on Norwell.



Not sure I agree with this. All line positions are important. In the current state of the league, if you have your tackles sorted, opposing defenses are going to attack your weakness anyway. You can't really afford to have any soft spots. If you're happy with your tackles but you're trying to hide your guards, guess where you're going to get schemed.


It's speed/edge game, I'd prefer to put the money there first. Historically, the league has agreed.
What if we swap 1sts with the  
The 12th Man : 2/27/2018 3:03 pm : link
Browns and they give us Joe Thomas and a 5th to do so?
RE: Sy  
Stufftherun : 2/27/2018 3:06 pm : link
In comment 13844291 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
thinks Smith from Auburn is better than Nelson. Not saying I agree...but point is there's good value at guard in this draft. If we took Nelson in the 1st I'd be disappointed.


Sy also mentioned Wynn as another he may rate as high but will continue the evaluation process.
RE: RE: RE: Nelson looks like a RG  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/27/2018 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13844350 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13844310 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13844121 JonC said:


Quote:


I haven't seen much of Norwell, but he also looks like a RG.

Imv, it doesn't make a ton of sense to spend over $10M per on an OG when you don't have your tackles sorted yet. If they've got their eye on Nelson, I'd think they'd pass on Norwell.



Not sure I agree with this. All line positions are important. In the current state of the league, if you have your tackles sorted, opposing defenses are going to attack your weakness anyway. You can't really afford to have any soft spots. If you're happy with your tackles but you're trying to hide your guards, guess where you're going to get schemed.



It's speed/edge game, I'd prefer to put the money there first. Historically, the league has agreed.


Speed yes, edge sometimes. More than ever teams are actively putting their best players in positions to win matchups. We won a championship in part by having the idea to play Justin tuck out of position and match him up against guards. Now teams do that with their linebackers and safeties and anyone else who can rush the passer. Game plans are devised around individual matchups.
and edge blockers are still more often the premium  
JonC : 2/27/2018 3:22 pm : link
Your points are understood but the premium is on the edges, both OL and pass rushers who make the big bucks play off the edge, teams scheme to wreck edges and effectively take away half of the field.

We're starting the OL almost from scratch, it just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to invest big bucks in the middle three in a cap league until you've got the tackles sorted.
JonC  
bc4life : 2/27/2018 3:35 pm : link
Think Wheeler could be the answer at LT?
bc  
JonC : 2/27/2018 3:39 pm : link
I dunno, he definitely needs a lot of time in the weight room, but you can see the feet and hand techniques are there. He looks the part but dunno about his real upside in the NFL.
Grab Nelson, out him next to Flowers and Flowers gets better  
SterlingArcher : 2/27/2018 5:41 pm : link
and the Giants have a All Pro future HoF in Nelson!
RE: Right off the bat  
Mad Mike : 2/27/2018 5:59 pm : link
In comment 13844099 mrvax said:
Quote:
this video makes a mistake. He claims that a guard hasn't been selected in the top 5 since 2001. Redskins took one a few years ago.
Scherff was a tackle in college though, and started as a tackle in training camp (though he was moved to guard pretty early).
If the Giants sign Norwell  
Breeze_94 : 2/27/2018 6:36 pm : link
Nelson wouldn't be a necessity, but still a possibility, but signing Norwell could make it so that the Giants board focuses more on QB's or Barkley if they don't love the QB's.

But, they could always pair up Norwell + Nelson and move one of them to RG. That would be an instant running game no matter who is in the backfield for the Giants. There will also be more time for the Giants to get the ball out to their receivers.

You can't really scheme around your both guards getting manhandled on the inside, but the Giants would never have to worry about that with Nelson/Norwell.

It is easier to scheme around having 1 bad OT, where you can move a TE to his side + chip with the RB.
I havent seen much of him  
Mark from Jersey : 2/27/2018 8:20 pm : link
but doesnt look overly comfortable pulling.
Does anyone  
mattyblue : 2/27/2018 8:43 pm : link
recall how “can’t miss” everyone said Robert Gallery was?
Nelson could play RG  
Rjanyg : 2/27/2018 10:53 pm : link
He is a mauler. He might be able to play tackle. I would love a trade down and picking up extra picks and drafting Nelson.

Norwell at LG, sign Fleming for RT from New England, tender Jones, draft Tyrell Crosby in round 2, Mason Cole in round 4, and you have a deep versatile group.
RE: and edge blockers are still more often the premium  
WillVAB : 2/27/2018 11:52 pm : link
In comment 13844377 JonC said:
Quote:
Your points are understood but the premium is on the edges, both OL and pass rushers who make the big bucks play off the edge, teams scheme to wreck edges and effectively take away half of the field.

We're starting the OL almost from scratch, it just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to invest big bucks in the middle three in a cap league until you've got the tackles sorted.


This is an overly simplistic view of the OL.

If the Giants ended up with Norwell, Price, and Nelson, they’d have one proven All-Pro and two potential All-Pros. The interior would be locked down for the foreseeable future. The QB wouldn’t have to worry about pressure up the middle. Pass pro is easier for the backs. A TE can help the tackles. The running game would be dramatically improved, especially short yardage.

Wheeler wasn’t terrible last year given the circumstances. Flowers could be ok at RT in that configuration as an ‘18 bridge until they find someone else.

If you know you don’t have to worry about one thing you can scheme to protect your weaknesses. For example, Diehl was never a great LT. He frequently got beat by the top end pass rushers in the league. But the Giants were still able to have success offensively because the rest of the line was so good and they could help him with backs and TEs.
RE: RE: and edge blockers are still more often the premium  
Rjanyg : 2/28/2018 7:42 am : link
In comment 13844693 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13844377 JonC said:


Quote:


Your points are understood but the premium is on the edges, both OL and pass rushers who make the big bucks play off the edge, teams scheme to wreck edges and effectively take away half of the field.

We're starting the OL almost from scratch, it just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to invest big bucks in the middle three in a cap league until you've got the tackles sorted.



This is an overly simplistic view of the OL.

If the Giants ended up with Norwell, Price, and Nelson, they’d have one proven All-Pro and two potential All-Pros. The interior would be locked down for the foreseeable future. The QB wouldn’t have to worry about pressure up the middle. Pass pro is easier for the backs. A TE can help the tackles. The running game would be dramatically improved, especially short yardage.

Wheeler wasn’t terrible last year given the circumstances. Flowers could be ok at RT in that configuration as an ‘18 bridge until they find someone else.

If you know you don’t have to worry about one thing you can scheme to protect your weaknesses. For example, Diehl was never a great LT. He frequently got beat by the top end pass rushers in the league. But the Giants were still able to have success offensively because the rest of the line was so good and they could help him with backs and TEs.


Great point on Diehl. He was a lunch pail kind of guy, solid but not spectacular. I agree with the premise that getting Norwell, Nelson and Price is a smart way to build the line because of talent and value. The only good LT in free agency is Solder and dollar for dollar with cost more than Norwell and is not as talented at his position and is 4 years older. Flowers play will improve with Norwell next to him and an improved offensive scheme. Nelson is the best OL in this draft and will start day 1. Price will start day 1.

Great use of your resources and fixes the most glaring need on the team.
RE: RE: and edge blockers are still more often the premium  
JonC : 2/28/2018 9:08 am : link
In comment 13844693 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 13844377 JonC said:


Quote:


Your points are understood but the premium is on the edges, both OL and pass rushers who make the big bucks play off the edge, teams scheme to wreck edges and effectively take away half of the field.

We're starting the OL almost from scratch, it just doesn't make a ton of sense to me to invest big bucks in the middle three in a cap league until you've got the tackles sorted.



This is an overly simplistic view of the OL.

If the Giants ended up with Norwell, Price, and Nelson, they’d have one proven All-Pro and two potential All-Pros. The interior would be locked down for the foreseeable future. The QB wouldn’t have to worry about pressure up the middle. Pass pro is easier for the backs. A TE can help the tackles. The running game would be dramatically improved, especially short yardage.

Wheeler wasn’t terrible last year given the circumstances. Flowers could be ok at RT in that configuration as an ‘18 bridge until they find someone else.

If you know you don’t have to worry about one thing you can scheme to protect your weaknesses. For example, Diehl was never a great LT. He frequently got beat by the top end pass rushers in the league. But the Giants were still able to have success offensively because the rest of the line was so good and they could help him with backs and TEs.


The overly simplistic view is to believe there's only one way to skin a cat, and I acknowledge my way isn't the only way.

But I think it's clear, as do many NFL teams over many years, how to best allocate money in a cap league and it begins with the tackles.
Further, those NYG teams spent UFA dollars on Kareem at RT  
JonC : 2/28/2018 9:11 am : link
and built the interior around Snee, because they never really had a shot at a blue chip LT.

Now history might repeat itself here and I acknowledge that as well, but I prefer a more optimal method.
RE: Further, those NYG teams spent UFA dollars on Kareem at RT  
WillVAB : 2/28/2018 9:28 am : link
In comment 13844826 JonC said:
Quote:
and built the interior around Snee, because they never really had a shot at a blue chip LT.

Now history might repeat itself here and I acknowledge that as well, but I prefer a more optimal method.


You take what FA and the draft give you. The value won’t be there in FA at tackle. No tackle is worth the 2nd pick, and no tackle as talented as Price will be there at 34. The Giants can’t just shrug their shoulders and avoid OL because the opportunity isn’t there to build it the traditional way. The entire unit is trash.

Re: cap allocation, only one guy would be getting paid on the OL for the next 4-5 years. I don’t think that’s poor cap allocation at all. Poor cap allocation would be buying Solder plus one or two other guys in FA like many here have suggested.
All valid points  
JonC : 2/28/2018 9:31 am : link
I hope they don't spend like idiots on UFA OL out of desperation.
A good OT option is Cameron Fleming from NE  
Rjanyg : 2/28/2018 12:58 pm : link
He would be a very solid RT and might be an option at LT.

He is only 26 years old so adding him along with Norwell would be a huge way to start the rebuild on the O Line.

Draft Nelson round 1 and plug him in at RG, Jones at Center and this line is almost rebuilt.
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