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Sean Payton - Barkley best RB in 25 years...

Mike in St. Louis : 3/5/2018 8:55 am
didn't see this posted...if it is, I'll delete...

Payton is obviously a pretty good offensive coach...I don't see how the Giants can pass up a generational talent like Saquan...


"Saints coach Sean Payton told the MMQB's Peter King that Penn State RB Saquon Barkley is the best RB prospect he's seen in 25 years.

King adds another team he spoke with handed Barkley a perfect grade, only the fifth in the last 20 years. That is quite a statement. Payton was a focal point in trading a future second-round pick to acquire Alvin Kamara last offseason, so his running back evaluations should be heavily respected. To put 25 years in perspective, that is a higher grade than Ezekiel Elliott, Leonard Fournette, Trent Richardson, Darren McFadden, Reggie Bush, Ronnie Brown, Cedric Benson, LaDainian Tomlinson, Jamal Lewis, Edgerrin James, Ricky Williams, Curtis Enis, Ki-Jana Carter, Marshall Faulk and Garrison Hearst. Every one of those names was selected in the top five."
your list doesn't even include AP  
giants#1 : 3/5/2018 9:02 am : link
who (IIRC) was selected 6th overall and is arguably the best RB in the last 25 years.
Would be hard to pass him up if he is there.  
Brown Recluse : 3/5/2018 9:02 am : link
He is the best player in the draft. The Browns may be thinking the same thing though.

The Browns  
djstat : 3/5/2018 9:03 am : link
Will take Barkley at 1
not my list....  
Mike in St. Louis : 3/5/2018 9:06 am : link
and I think they were looking at top 5 picks at RB...
Better then AP and LDT  
GoBlue6599 : 3/5/2018 9:08 am : link
I will believe it when I see it on a NFL field... The hype is getting ridiculous for this guy.. These expectations are going to be impossible for Barkley to live up to
Peterson as a rookie  
GoBlue6599 : 3/5/2018 9:11 am : link
1350 yards 12 TDs at 5.6 a carry let's see if Saquon can come close to matching that ... I have my doubts
So much hype  
UberAlias : 3/5/2018 9:14 am : link
He may be better than other guys, but not the lock the hype suggests. Fornette and Gurley averaged a half a yard more per carry than Barkley did and Elliott averaged a full yard more. He doesn't have the power that Fournett does and he's not the blocker Elliott is. His advantage is that he's a better receiver, probably comparable to Gurley.

I don't a different level here with him.
Great point.  
Brown Recluse : 3/5/2018 9:16 am : link
The average yards per carry statistic definitely tells the story.
I love that GMs and Head coaches  
Jan in DC : 3/5/2018 9:17 am : link
Love to talk about prospects that they have no chance of drafting. I remember the year that Reggie Bush came out, they were asking Ernie Accorsi about some Giants related stuff and all he wanted to do was gush about Bush.

Just seems like a diversionary tactic, even if they are giving you their real evaluation.
RE: Great point.  
UberAlias : 3/5/2018 9:19 am : link
In comment 13850588 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
The average yards per carry statistic definitely tells the story.
I never said it was the oly consideration. But it's part of the equation, dope.
Right...  
trueblueinpw : 3/5/2018 9:35 am : link
Payton has a QB two years older than Eli. Does anyone think Sean Payton would draft Barks at the 2 and pass on one of the many first round QBs in this draft? I don’t. Hey, didn’t Sean Payton get suspended for being a lying sack of shit? That might color my opinion of his opinion as well.
Must mean since Barry Sanders  
jeff57 : 3/5/2018 9:35 am : link
.
It's amazing what a great workout in his underwear  
Keith : 3/5/2018 9:37 am : link
will do. People always get way too hyped over the combine. Ok, so he can bench a lot. That's going to help him how? Ok, so he jumps really high, that's going to help him how?

I am not doubting that Barkley is a really good prospect and has a great chance at success at the next level, but the hype from the combine is nuts.
Dont forget  
BronxBombers : 3/5/2018 9:39 am : link
shady mccoy...injuries always hurt him, but he's a stud!
RE: Better then AP and LDT  
Tuckrule : 3/5/2018 9:40 am : link
In comment 13850578 GoBlue6599 said:
Quote:
I will believe it when I see it on a NFL field... The hype is getting ridiculous for this guy.. These expectations are going to be impossible for Barkley to live up to


Did you see him in college? He was better than AP was and it’s not really close
RE: It's amazing what a great workout in his underwear  
chuckydee9 : 3/5/2018 9:44 am : link
In comment 13850621 Keith said:
Quote:
will do. People always get way too hyped over the combine. Ok, so he can bench a lot. That's going to help him how? Ok, so he jumps really high, that's going to help him how?

I am not doubting that Barkley is a really good prospect and has a great chance at success at the next level, but the hype from the combine is nuts.


Its not as simple as a great workout in his underwear.. his play on the field stood out.. combine was simply used to prove it for draft purposes.. He was great prior to the combine and there is no denying that.. Penn state had no talent anywhere else on the offense and that is the reason for a lower YPC.. I am not saying he is better than Zeke, Fournette or Gurley.. but he is damn good and if things work out properly he may end up with the best career since Barry Sanders.. he has the skills..
RE: RE: Great point.  
Brown Recluse : 3/5/2018 9:50 am : link
In comment 13850596 UberAlias said:
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In comment 13850588 Brown Recluse said:


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The average yards per carry statistic definitely tells the story.

I never said it was the oly consideration. But it's part of the equation, dope.


A very small part, unless his ypc was abysmal. Otherwise its hardly worth basing an argument around. Rb's don't make their own ypc. Its too dependent on other variables.

Its like saying on QB is not as good as another because they don't have as many Super Bowl rings.
chucky, I get that,  
Keith : 3/5/2018 9:52 am : link
my point is not to diminish how much talent this kid obviously has. The combine is just funny to me. Guy got some hype before the combine, nothing too outrageous and then he lifts 29 times and this place explodes. Then he jumps high and runs a fast 40 and its a given that he's on the giants. There were multiple threads that basically said...well Barkley is obviously our pick, who do we draft in the 2nd? It's crazy.
RE: RE: Better then AP and LDT  
GoBlue6599 : 3/5/2018 9:55 am : link
In comment 13850635 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 13850578 GoBlue6599 said:


Quote:


I will believe it when I see it on a NFL field... The hype is getting ridiculous for this guy.. These expectations are going to be impossible for Barkley to live up to



Did you see him in college? He was better than AP was and it’s not really close

The same AP that ran for almost 2000 yards as a freshman... As a runner AP had more yards in less games .. You must be referring to Barkleys pass catching/ kick return ability well u can have a scat back @ #2 overrall . Give me a tank like all day AP
Hey where all just projecting right now anyway but put me on record Barkley doesn't have anywhere near the career AP has had as a runner
RE: RE: RE: Better then AP and LDT  
Brown Recluse : 3/5/2018 9:59 am : link
In comment 13850675 GoBlue6599 said:
Quote:
In comment 13850635 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


In comment 13850578 GoBlue6599 said:


Quote:


I will believe it when I see it on a NFL field... The hype is getting ridiculous for this guy.. These expectations are going to be impossible for Barkley to live up to



Did you see him in college? He was better than AP was and it’s not really close


The same AP that ran for almost 2000 yards as a freshman... As a runner AP had more yards in less games .. You must be referring to Barkleys pass catching/ kick return ability well u can have a scat back @ #2 overrall . Give me a tank like all day AP
Hey where all just projecting right now anyway but put me on record Barkley doesn't have anywhere near the career AP has had as a runner


Probably not if he's drafted by a shit team like the Browns. They don't know how to field a decent team.
RE: RE: RE: Great point.  
GoBlue6599 : 3/5/2018 9:59 am : link
In comment 13850663 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13850596 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 13850588 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


The average yards per carry statistic definitely tells the story.

I never said it was the oly consideration. But it's part of the equation, dope.



A very small part, unless his ypc was abysmal. Otherwise its hardly worth basing an argument around. Rb's don't make their own ypc. Its too dependent on other variables.

Its like saying on QB is not as good as another because they don't have as many Super Bowl rings.

Since when is Ypc not a good way to measure the sucess of a RB?
I can already see it now if the Giants draft him and 8 games into the year he's averaging 3.6 ypc
Blame Eli, Beckham, Shurmur the OL
RE: RE: RE: Great point.  
GoBlue6599 : 3/5/2018 10:00 am : link
In comment 13850663 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13850596 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 13850588 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


The average yards per carry statistic definitely tells the story.

I never said it was the oly consideration. But it's part of the equation, dope.



A very small part, unless his ypc was abysmal. Otherwise its hardly worth basing an argument around. Rb's don't make their own ypc. Its too dependent on other variables.

Its like saying on QB is not as good as another because they don't have as many Super Bowl rings.

Since when is Ypc not a good way to measure the sucess of a RB?
I can already see it now if the Giants draft him and 8 games into the year he's averaging 3.6 ypc
Blame Eli, Beckham, Shurmur the OL
RE: RE: RE: RE: Great point.  
Brown Recluse : 3/5/2018 10:11 am : link
In comment 13850691 GoBlue6599 said:
Quote:
In comment 13850663 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


In comment 13850596 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 13850588 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


The average yards per carry statistic definitely tells the story.

I never said it was the oly consideration. But it's part of the equation, dope.



A very small part, unless his ypc was abysmal. Otherwise its hardly worth basing an argument around. Rb's don't make their own ypc. Its too dependent on other variables.

Its like saying on QB is not as good as another because they don't have as many Super Bowl rings.


Since when is Ypc not a good way to measure the sucess of a RB?
I can already see it now if the Giants draft him and 8 games into the year he's averaging 3.6 ypc
Blame Eli, Beckham, Shurmur the OL


I don't know...maybe since...like, forever?

Wait...no. You're probably right. Why even bother having an offensive line. RB's don't need linemen.
RE: your list doesn't even include AP  
NYSports1 : 3/5/2018 10:12 am : link
In comment 13850564 giants#1 said:
Quote:
who (IIRC) was selected 6th overall and is arguably the best RB in the last 25 years.


How many playoffs games did the Vikings win in the 8 years of AP for the Vikings?
YPC is the best indicator  
Keith : 3/5/2018 10:15 am : link
in the success(or failures) of a running game, but it's a little unfair to judge just a RB on YPC. There are so many factors that are out of the RB's control. For example, if defenses don't respect the passing game, they will stack the box. What if they have a really bad OL? Not all things are equal when comparing YPC.
RE: RE: RE: Great point.  
UberAlias : 3/5/2018 10:40 am : link
In comment 13850663 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13850596 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 13850588 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


The average yards per carry statistic definitely tells the story.

I never said it was the oly consideration. But it's part of the equation, dope.



A very small part, unless his ypc was abysmal. Otherwise its hardly worth basing an argument around. Rb's don't make their own ypc. Its too dependent on other variables.

Its like saying on QB is not as good as another because they don't have as many Super Bowl rings.
Except I never made those claims. I never said he wasn't as good as the others, and that was never my point. I'm just pointing out that it is not as clear cut and dry as the Barkley fan club wants everyone to believe. You have to start somewhere and YPC is as good a starting point as any.

I also mentioned a few other things which you completely ignored.

So when evaluating RBs, you seem not to be in favor of looking at performance metrics, looking at qualities such as blocking ability, power, or receiving skills, yet you're fully supportive of unsupported blanket statements like "best RB in 25 years".
RE: YPC is the best indicator  
allstarjim : 3/5/2018 10:48 am : link
In comment 13850719 Keith said:
Quote:
in the success(or failures) of a running game, but it's a little unfair to judge just a RB on YPC. There are so many factors that are out of the RB's control. For example, if defenses don't respect the passing game, they will stack the box. What if they have a really bad OL? Not all things are equal when comparing YPC.


Barkley's accomplishments are colored by the fact that his OL at PSU was a very mediocre run blocking unit, and McSorley is a below average QB that teams did not respect. The commitment to stopping Barkley is evident on the tape. Sometimes I saw 9 guys swarming him. You cannot block 9 guys. Nobody trusted their teammate was going to make a 1 on 1 tackle.

All of the other backs listed had better offenses around them. Yet Barkley still put up extraordinary numbers.

Calling him a scat back and saying he's not a good blocker reflects complete ignorance of his tape.

He actually is a very good blocker. I know Waldman picked out one block and criticized him for dropping his head, but he 1) still made the block, and 2) he shows good blocking technique many more times on film than that. I've seen him pancake a dude as well. It is actually very rare to see a guy block as well as he does as a RB coming out of college, and he can do it better than most RBs playing in the NFL right now.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Great point.  
allstarjim : 3/5/2018 10:50 am : link
In comment 13850767 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 13850663 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


In comment 13850596 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 13850588 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


The average yards per carry statistic definitely tells the story.

I never said it was the oly consideration. But it's part of the equation, dope.



A very small part, unless his ypc was abysmal. Otherwise its hardly worth basing an argument around. Rb's don't make their own ypc. Its too dependent on other variables.

Its like saying on QB is not as good as another because they don't have as many Super Bowl rings.

Except I never made those claims. I never said he wasn't as good as the others, and that was never my point. I'm just pointing out that it is not as clear cut and dry as the Barkley fan club wants everyone to believe. You have to start somewhere and YPC is as good a starting point as any.

I also mentioned a few other things which you completely ignored.

So when evaluating RBs, you seem not to be in favor of looking at performance metrics, looking at qualities such as blocking ability, power, or receiving skills, yet you're fully supportive of unsupported blanket statements like "best RB in 25 years".


If you're just starting at ypc I'm here to say that there are many of us who are way past looking at stats in evaluating him.
RE: RE: It's amazing what a great workout in his underwear  
chuckydee9 : 3/5/2018 10:58 am : link
In comment 13850643 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 13850621 Keith said:


Quote:


will do. People always get way too hyped over the combine. Ok, so he can bench a lot. That's going to help him how? Ok, so he jumps really high, that's going to help him how?

I am not doubting that Barkley is a really good prospect and has a great chance at success at the next level, but the hype from the combine is nuts.



Its not as simple as a great workout in his underwear.. his play on the field stood out.. combine was simply used to prove it for draft purposes.. He was great prior to the combine and there is no denying that.. Penn state had no talent anywhere else on the offense and that is the reason for a lower YPC.. I am not saying he is better than Zeke, Fournette or Gurley.. but he is damn good and if things work out properly he may end up with the best career since Barry Sanders.. he has the skills..


yes I know.. while there lazy people are some who are hyping up his combine.. people who know college football have been saying that Barkley should be top 1 or 2 pick since September.. I won't gauge real interest or Giants plan by looking at the number of BBI threads.. anyhow many many people have proposed that we draft Barkley prior to combine..
That's nice Jim -I'm so very happy for you  
UberAlias : 3/5/2018 11:01 am : link
.
RE: That's nice Jim -I'm so very happy for you  
allstarjim : 3/5/2018 11:11 am : link
In comment 13850818 UberAlias said:
Quote:
.


That's so nice of you to say! :)

You're a nice guy, UA.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick man. But when you use ypc and say "you have to start somewhere," it honestly reads as if you haven't gone deeper. I was all ready to be on the, "this guy is over hyped" train. But I've watched about 7 or 8 of his full games now, and what I've seen of him, I have to agree with the majority of those that have been heaping on the effusive praise of this guy and the disbelief that a guy can be this good. He really is on another level. There isn't an aspect to his game that he doesn't check off emphatically. He has every attribute you want in a RB. You name it, he can do it and do it well. It's not just me, it's a lot of other guys that earn a living from doing this that are saying these kinds of things about him.
Just to follow up  
allstarjim : 3/5/2018 11:17 am : link
You will never get a good evaluation of a player from his stats or game logs. There is no substitute for watching him play against competition. You can use the stats as a reference point, but you have to watch the games. If you've done that already, and I mean you've watched at least 4 of his games, and you still have that opinion, then ok. I would be wondering what you saw specifically that informed your opinion in that way, because what I see is much different.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Great point.  
Brown Recluse : 3/5/2018 11:17 am : link
In comment 13850767 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 13850663 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


In comment 13850596 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 13850588 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


The average yards per carry statistic definitely tells the story.

I never said it was the oly consideration. But it's part of the equation, dope.



A very small part, unless his ypc was abysmal. Otherwise its hardly worth basing an argument around. Rb's don't make their own ypc. Its too dependent on other variables.

Its like saying on QB is not as good as another because they don't have as many Super Bowl rings.

Except I never made those claims. I never said he wasn't as good as the others, and that was never my point. I'm just pointing out that it is not as clear cut and dry as the Barkley fan club wants everyone to believe. You have to start somewhere and YPC is as good a starting point as any.

I also mentioned a few other things which you completely ignored.

So when evaluating RBs, you seem not to be in favor of looking at performance metrics, looking at qualities such as blocking ability, power, or receiving skills, yet you're fully supportive of unsupported blanket statements like "best RB in 25 years".


I didn't ingore anything. I just didn't agree with using ypc as an indicator of how good he was compared to anyone else. And I don't see it as a conclusive "performance metric."

I have no idea if he's the best RB in 25 years. How can anyone honestly know if thats true? I do believe that, barring injury, he can absolutely be the best RB in the league and one of the best to ever play. There is no reason to think otherwise. He was highly productive. He can do everything - run, catch, block, return kicks. His athletic ability is off the charts. He has a great attitude - no character concerns. He checks off every single box. Unless he gets hurt, I think he can be every bit as dominant as Adrian Peterson or Ladanian Tomlinson. That is what you expect when you pick any player at the very top of the draft.

Jim  
UberAlias : 3/5/2018 11:28 am : link
I'm not saying that I haven't looked deeper or that others haven't. It's a starting point for discussion. In my opinion it is notable that over three seasons and all of those opportunities he was about a half a yard to a yard behind all of the others. Now does the discussion end there? Of course not. There are contributing factors behind all metrics.

But the Barkley supports would have him leap frogging every recent back to all time greats. Those are some bold claims and I would caution making such a leap lightly. I'm not sold he's heads and tails better than the recent guys as Barkley supports would have us believe, much less Tomlinson, AP, etc. Those are some very big claims and one would hope to see very compelling reasons to make a leap such as that with confidence.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/5/2018 11:33 am : link
Barkley does everything well. I'm not putting him in the HoF before he even takes an NFL snap - I think some people are getting carried away. But this guy is legit.

Compare him to some of the recent top RB's off the board and ask yourself what those guys do that he can't. You won't find much.
RE: Just to follow up  
UberAlias : 3/5/2018 11:38 am : link
In comment 13850846 allstarjim said:
Quote:
You will never get a good evaluation of a player from his stats or game logs. There is no substitute for watching him play against competition. You can use the stats as a reference point, but you have to watch the games. If you've done that already, and I mean you've watched at least 4 of his games, and you still have that opinion, then ok. I would be wondering what you saw specifically that informed your opinion in that way, because what I see is much different.
Jim, I have seen him play. I've also seen the other guys play and I think they are pretty good too. In my layman's opinion, I think his receiving skills probably puts him at the head of the pack, but among the same group, not on a different level. I think Fournette runs with more power and Elliott is a superior blocker.
RE: Jim  
allstarjim : 3/5/2018 11:39 am : link
In comment 13850879 UberAlias said:
Quote:
I'm not saying that I haven't looked deeper or that others haven't. It's a starting point for discussion. In my opinion it is notable that over three seasons and all of those opportunities he was about a half a yard to a yard behind all of the others. Now does the discussion end there? Of course not. There are contributing factors behind all metrics.

But the Barkley supports would have him leap frogging every recent back to all time greats. Those are some bold claims and I would caution making such a leap lightly. I'm not sold he's heads and tails better than the recent guys as Barkley supports would have us believe, much less Tomlinson, AP, etc. Those are some very big claims and one would hope to see very compelling reasons to make a leap such as that with confidence.


I can respect that opinion and to be fair he still has to justify those comparisons on the NFL level. But as a prospect, he's the best I've ever seen at the position and so for me I harken back to watching Marshall Faulk at San Diego State and Tomlinson back in TCU and I think, he's definitely better than anyone since those guys, and where would he rank if you put him next to those guys as prospects. And I have to say, I think he belongs in the discussion. I've honestly never seen anyone like him.

And look, I called Trent Richardson a bust coming out. I'm not a guy that automatically buys hype. What I saw in Richardson was an Alabama line that opened up huge holes and Richardson never had to really work for it. I didn't see any lateral agility or extraordinary power, I saw a guy benefitting from the best OL in the nation.

I don't get that at all with Barkley. He was the guy making everyone else on his team better, including his QB.
RE: It's amazing what a great workout in his underwear  
The 12th Man : 3/5/2018 11:43 am : link
In comment 13850621 Keith said:
Quote:
will do. People always get way too hyped over the combine. Ok, so he can bench a lot. That's going to help him how? Ok, so he jumps really high, that's going to help him how?

I am not doubting that Barkley is a really good prospect and has a great chance at success at the next level, but the hype from the combine is nuts.


Simple ? for you. Have you seen the kid play on tv or live? I have and I will tell you most talented player I have seen on a field in a long time. The Giants would be lucky to get this kid.
RE: RE: RE: Better then AP and LDT  
The 12th Man : 3/5/2018 11:46 am : link
In comment 13850675 GoBlue6599 said:
Quote:
In comment 13850635 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


In comment 13850578 GoBlue6599 said:


Quote:


I will believe it when I see it on a NFL field... The hype is getting ridiculous for this guy.. These expectations are going to be impossible for Barkley to live up to



Did you see him in college? He was better than AP was and it’s not really close


The same AP that ran for almost 2000 yards as a freshman... As a runner AP had more yards in less games .. You must be referring to Barkleys pass catching/ kick return ability well u can have a scat back @ #2 overrall . Give me a tank like all day AP
Hey where all just projecting right now anyway but put me on record Barkley doesn't have anywhere near the career AP has had as a runner


I will take your bet. What are we wagering?
RE: RE: It's amazing what a great workout in his underwear  
Keith : 3/5/2018 11:47 am : link
In comment 13850903 The 12th Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13850621 Keith said:


Quote:


will do. People always get way too hyped over the combine. Ok, so he can bench a lot. That's going to help him how? Ok, so he jumps really high, that's going to help him how?

I am not doubting that Barkley is a really good prospect and has a great chance at success at the next level, but the hype from the combine is nuts.



Simple ? for you. Have you seen the kid play on tv or live? I have and I will tell you most talented player I have seen on a field in a long time. The Giants would be lucky to get this kid.


Couple of things:

1. This was something I read yesterday regarding the QB's. Thought it fit well here.

2. I am not doubting his talents in any way. The hype train went nuts after the combine. He had some hype before, then he benched 29 times and jumped high and people went ballistic. Not sure how any of those things make him a better football player.

3. Minimal. Again, I'm not saying he isn't great, all I am saying is that what he did at the combine means little.

4. I still probably wouldn't draft him if I am the Giants. Gotta come away with a QB.
Best R in 25 years...  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 12:08 pm : link
Great, then he'll be very good value in the 2nd round.

RB is the most fungible position in pro football. Taking the best "RB in 25 years" as a top 5 pick - and I could probably argue top 20 - is just not wise use of a high draft pick...
RE: RE: RE: It's amazing what a great workout in his underwear  
allstarjim : 3/5/2018 12:17 pm : link
In comment 13850912 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 13850903 The 12th Man said:


Quote:


In comment 13850621 Keith said:


Quote:


will do. People always get way too hyped over the combine. Ok, so he can bench a lot. That's going to help him how? Ok, so he jumps really high, that's going to help him how?

I am not doubting that Barkley is a really good prospect and has a great chance at success at the next level, but the hype from the combine is nuts.



Simple ? for you. Have you seen the kid play on tv or live? I have and I will tell you most talented player I have seen on a field in a long time. The Giants would be lucky to get this kid.



Couple of things:

1. This was something I read yesterday regarding the QB's. Thought it fit well here.

2. I am not doubting his talents in any way. The hype train went nuts after the combine. He had some hype before, then he benched 29 times and jumped high and people went ballistic. Not sure how any of those things make him a better football player.

3. Minimal. Again, I'm not saying he isn't great, all I am saying is that what he did at the combine means little.

4. I still probably wouldn't draft him if I am the Giants. Gotta come away with a QB.


Keith, the vertical speaks to the explosion his leg muscles are capable of. They actually do translate on the football field. Not that it speaks only to jumping, but I've seen him hurdle guys and keep going, he's done it more than a few times, actually, it's crazy. Even the bench, while less important for a RB, it translates, especially when you see him use a stiff arm or when he pancakes a guy.

You also left out his 4.4 flat 40.
Well the 40 I can somewhat understand.  
Keith : 3/5/2018 12:27 pm : link
Speed is important for a RB. However, it is track speed which is completely different than football speed, but I can understand why it's judged for RB's. You want to test leg strength and explosion, test his squat power. To me, that would be a much better indicator for a RB to be able to guage lower body strength as it would translate to a football field. I don't agree regarding the bench. I don't see how it translates to the football field at all for a RB. Other than to prove that he's a freak of nature athletically.

It really is crazy how much stock people put into these  
Keith : 3/5/2018 12:29 pm : link
combine numbers. There is such a small difference in a lot of these times(look at David Johnson and Barkley synched). HOwever, they are trained to get good times. It's such a better indicator in how these guys would look at track and field.
RE: Well the 40 I can somewhat understand.  
Boatie Warrant : 3/5/2018 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13850977 Keith said:
Quote:
Speed is important for a RB. However, it is track speed which is completely different than football speed, but I can understand why it's judged for RB's. You want to test leg strength and explosion, test his squat power. To me, that would be a much better indicator for a RB to be able to guage lower body strength as it would translate to a football field. I don't agree regarding the bench. I don't see how it translates to the football field at all for a RB. Other than to prove that he's a freak of nature athletically.


You mean like an over 500lb squat? I don't think anyone can say the kid is not an athletic freak. Will his skills and power translate to the NFL? No one knows at this point, but his college tape indicates he is really good at all aspects of being a RB.
Link - ( New Window )
Fair points Jim  
UberAlias : 3/5/2018 1:04 pm : link
There is no doubt he would make the team a lot better. I think having him in the discussion for top overall pick along with the QBs makes this one of the more exciting draft lead ups we’ve seen in a while.
I feel like the combine should be  
Keith : 3/5/2018 1:22 pm : link
more position specific. Also, why aren’t squats a part of it?
RE: I feel like the combine should be  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13851061 Keith said:
Quote:
more position specific. Also, why aren’t squats a part of it?


And they run in pads and helmets...
RE: I feel like the combine should be  
Brown Recluse : 3/5/2018 1:28 pm : link
In comment 13851061 Keith said:
Quote:
more position specific. Also, why aren’t squats a part of it?


Could be the potential for injury is greater. Just guessing.
RE: Peterson as a rookie  
njm : 3/5/2018 1:46 pm : link
In comment 13850582 GoBlue6599 said:
Quote:
1350 yards 12 TDs at 5.6 a carry let's see if Saquon can come close to matching that ... I have my doubts


As things stand today, he has a better chance of putting up those numbers behind Cleveland's OL than the Giants OL.
RE: Well the 40 I can somewhat understand.  
The 12th Man : 3/5/2018 3:49 pm : link
In comment 13850977 Keith said:
Quote:
Speed is important for a RB. However, it is track speed which is completely different than football speed, but I can understand why it's judged for RB's. You want to test leg strength and explosion, test his squat power. To me, that would be a much better indicator for a RB to be able to guage lower body strength as it would translate to a football field. I don't agree regarding the bench. I don't see how it translates to the football field at all for a RB. Other than to prove that he's a freak of nature athletically.

Willie Gault was track speed. This kid stops cuts and is gone. The 4.4 absolutely translates for this kid. He reminds Le'veon Bell. He is a patient runner who explodes through the open hole. he is exactly what this team needs with a revamped OL and the weapons this team has on O. You will see many drives where Eli will not have to do much but hand off to get points. He is strong, he picks up blitzers very well and he is a heady player. The kid leads how hard he plays each down. He never takes a play off. even when he is not getting the ball. Watch him when he is not involved in the play. We need players who want to play every down, not take downs off. This kid checks off all the boxes you need. By the way the last 5 Super Bowl winners QB were not drafted in the 1st round.
Looks like  
PaulN : 3/5/2018 3:53 pm : link
Sean wants Barkley taken otherwise why say what he said. All smokescreens for an idiot to bite on, Gettleman is no idiot and he will stand by his convictions. If the Giants love one of these QB's, for the 100th time, there is NO WAY they are passing on the opportunity to draft a franchise QB, no way no how.
College doesn't always translate to the NFL.  
Keith : 3/5/2018 3:53 pm : link
Regardless, I am not doubting this kids talents. He's obviously uniquely talented.

2 of the last 5 was Tom Brady. Peyton Manning was a first rounder. Eagles never would have gotten to the SB without Wentz who was a first rounder.
RE: Best R in 25 years...  
RobCarpenter : 3/5/2018 3:57 pm : link
In comment 13850949 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Great, then he'll be very good value in the 2nd round.

RB is the most fungible position in pro football. Taking the best "RB in 25 years" as a top 5 pick - and I could probably argue top 20 - is just not wise use of a high draft pick...


I haven't seen many RBs that can do this:



Or this:

By the way  
The 12th Man : 3/5/2018 4:00 pm : link
When it come to strength. There was an article about him in Mens Fitness magazine. Saquon Barkley is the strongest RB in college football.
Link - ( New Window )
RobCarpenter...  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 4:01 pm : link
He's an electrifying runner - indeed.

And?

Oh  
The 12th Man : 3/5/2018 4:04 pm : link
and in case you missed it he squats 525 lbs. Yes that is right 525lbs. I bet he would love to see squats at the combine. He would blow the competition away.
RE: College doesn't always translate to the NFL.  
The 12th Man : 3/5/2018 4:06 pm : link
In comment 13851282 Keith said:
Quote:
Regardless, I am not doubting this kids talents. He's obviously uniquely talented.

2 of the last 5 was Tom Brady. Peyton Manning was a first rounder. Eagles never would have gotten to the SB without Wentz who was a first rounder.


sorry meant 4 of last 5.
RE: Oh  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 4:08 pm : link
In comment 13851290 The 12th Man said:
Quote:
and in case you missed it he squats 525 lbs. Yes that is right 525lbs. I bet he would love to see squats at the combine. He would blow the competition away.


I really don't know what that means. Do the Jints have a competitive, travel weight lifting team i don't know about?
RE: RE: College doesn't always translate to the NFL.  
Keith : 3/5/2018 4:10 pm : link
In comment 13851296 The 12th Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13851282 Keith said:


Quote:


Regardless, I am not doubting this kids talents. He's obviously uniquely talented.

2 of the last 5 was Tom Brady. Peyton Manning was a first rounder. Eagles never would have gotten to the SB without Wentz who was a first rounder.



sorry meant 4 of last 5.


Tom Brady breaks the rules. Do the Eagles get to the SB without an MVP season from Wentz?
so if we take him  
RasputinPrime : 3/5/2018 4:23 pm : link
I should be happy. Good to know.
People have a hard time understanding the word "prospect"  
AcesUp : 3/5/2018 4:33 pm : link
Just because Payton states that Barkley is the best RB prospect of the last 25 years, he is not stating that he will have a better career than these guys. He's speaking of these players strictly as prospects. And Barkley probably is - not only does he check every box, he does so at the highest level. Elite tape. Immediate 3 down ability - can run, catch and block at a high level. No injury history. Perfect off the field. One of the most impressive combines and set of measurables for a RB in NFL history. As a prospect, he probably most closely resembles Zeke of the top guys, but one of the biggest knocks on Zeke was that he was a good but not "special" athlete. Barkley checks that box.

Even believing that, I still prefer a QB if they view one of these guys as a 15 year starter. However, you're being a little obtuse if you can't see why some feel that way about Barkley.
RE: RobCarpenter...  
RobCarpenter : 3/5/2018 4:48 pm : link
In comment 13851289 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He's an electrifying runner - indeed.

And?


And he's a generational talent at RB.
Barkley  
GoBlue6599 : 3/5/2018 5:12 pm : link
One thing clear in those highlights you post, the big runs are on the perimeter
That's where the NFL and College running games differ in the NFL there is not alot of perimeter running because DE set the edge and the LBs/ DBs squeeze down meaning you get most of your running game inside where backs need to plow through people and carry people at or near the line of scrimmage for 4-5 a pop
That's where I question how effective Barkley will be
I'm not saying he isn't a playmaker that much is obvious I just wouldn't spend that high of a draft pick on the type of player I think he will be in the pros
RE: RE: RE: RE: Better then AP and LDT  
GoBlue6599 : 3/5/2018 5:14 pm : link
In comment 13850909 The 12th Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13850675 GoBlue6599 said:


Quote:


In comment 13850635 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


In comment 13850578 GoBlue6599 said:


Quote:


I will believe it when I see it on a NFL field... The hype is getting ridiculous for this guy.. These expectations are going to be impossible for Barkley to live up to



Did you see him in college? He was better than AP was and it’s not really close


The same AP that ran for almost 2000 yards as a freshman... As a runner AP had more yards in less games .. You must be referring to Barkleys pass catching/ kick return ability well u can have a scat back @ #2 overrall . Give me a tank like all day AP
Hey where all just projecting right now anyway but put me on record Barkley doesn't have anywhere near the career AP has had as a runner

I

I will take your bet. What are we wagering?
I was just putting my opinion on record not offering a wager.. You don't really expect me to bet some guy on the internet
RE: RE: RobCarpenter...  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 5:29 pm : link
In comment 13851340 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
In comment 13851289 bw in dc said:


Quote:


He's an electrifying runner - indeed.

And?




And he's a generational talent at RB.


I would argue that more of those have come up short in delivering SBs - Billy Sims, Earl Campbell, Herschel Walker, Barry Sanders, OJ Simpson, etc - than RBs found in later rounds.
Fungible?  
djm : 3/5/2018 6:50 pm : link
Backs that stay on the field all 3 downs and block, hit hrs with regularity and catch passes while possessing great NFL size and insane strength are not fucking fungible. Stop.

Pretty good backs are fungible. There's a big difference between the blounts and Thompsons and Bernards and even Freemans of the world. Good players to be sure. But they don't transcend offense. They aren't GREAT. Barkley looks like he's going to be special.

You can find good backs in round 2-3 but good luck finding them and really good luck finding a special back there.
And this is coming from someone who desperately wants a qb at 2  
djm : 3/5/2018 6:51 pm : link
...
RE: Fungible?  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 9:36 pm : link
In comment 13851456 djm said:
Quote:
Backs that stay on the field all 3 downs and block, hit hrs with regularity and catch passes while possessing great NFL size and insane strength are not fucking fungible. Stop.

Pretty good backs are fungible. There's a big difference between the blounts and Thompsons and Bernards and even Freemans of the world. Good players to be sure. But they don't transcend offense. They aren't GREAT. Barkley looks like he's going to be special.

You can find good backs in round 2-3 but good luck finding them and really good luck finding a special back there.


How many special, Hall of Fame RBs have the Jints had to win their 4 SBs?

49ers? None.

Packers last three? None.

Patriots? None.

Ravens? None.

Pittsburgh's last three? One.

Denver's last two? None.

I think you get the picture of the NFL's trend basically the last two decades...
.  
arcarsenal : 3/5/2018 9:50 pm : link
FWIW, Ray Rice was pretty damn good when Baltimore won that SB.

Also, the Eagles, for example, didn't have an elite RB last season - but they were 3rd in rush yards and 4th in YPA - so, they were a top 5 rushing team this season.

I just think there are different ways to build a team and win.

If Barkley is going to be as much of a game-breaker as he's being billed, he's going to have an enormous impact. He'll open things up for Engram and Beckham and create all types of issues for defenses.

I wouldn't pass on him just because he's a running back. If the Giants believe he's this good and he's on the board, they should draft him.

Bell has such a massive impact in PIT. Everything goes through him in that offense. If Barkley can do that here, he's worth the 2nd pick.

Just my 2 cents.
arcarsenal...  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 9:59 pm : link
As you know, this is a deep, deep draft of quality RBs. I don't think the difference between Barkley and the field is that great where he stands head and shoulders above...And above to the point where he's a no-brainer. And you know the list of names...

To me, there is a discernible drop in quality from the top 4 QBs to the rest. But that drop doesn't exist between Barkley and his draft peers. So the math tells me the best ROI would be a QB-RB draft sequence versus a RB-QB sequence...

I think it’s the opposite  
Bill L : 3/5/2018 10:03 pm : link
That Barkley actually does stand head and shoulders above. While the rest is deep the drop between he and the rest is significant. What doesn’t seem significant is the differential between the rest and Gallmam. So, if we pass on barkley I think a RB would be a wasted pick and we should shore up elsewhere and not pick a RB at all
RE: I think it’s the opposite  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 10:06 pm : link
In comment 13851578 Bill L said:
Quote:
That Barkley actually does stand head and shoulders above. While the rest is deep the drop between he and the rest is significant. What doesn’t seem significant is the differential between the rest and Gallmam. So, if we pass on barkley I think a RB would be a wasted pick and we should shore up elsewhere and not pick a RB at all


Fair enough on your view on Barkley. But this is a deep, deep draft of RBs. I could easily list ten RBs who could be quality contributors. So the market almost drives us to grab one...
bw..  
arcarsenal : 3/5/2018 10:12 pm : link
I do think there's a pretty big difference.

I honestly don't see guys like Michel, Chubb, Johnson or Penny as every down RB's.

Even Derrius Guice, who I love as a runner, and is probably the 2nd best RB in this draft, is probably going to be more of an early down back. I think wherever Guice plays, he's going to come off the field on a lot of passing downs.

Barkley is a true 3-down RB who can block, who can catch, who can play specials, and is more elusive than any of the others, and is flat out the best athlete in the draft. He's a clean prospect with zero off-field concerns.

I agree on the QB's - passing worries me because if we don't take one @ 2, it's going to be hard.

I still think Jackson or Rudolph are possibilities if NYG go in another direction @ 2. Jackson doesn't seem like an NYG-type of QB (not because of his skin color.. because of his skillset)

I actually like Mason Rudolph. I'm not so sure he won't be able to play in this league. Obviously I like some of the other guys more.

But there are two separate discussions...

One discussion revolves around whether or not taking an RB 2nd overall can possibly provide proper ROI.

The other is whether taking the RB @ 2 will be too costly in terms of taking us out of the running for the top QB's in what looks like a great QB class.

I can agree that taking Barkley is riskiest only because of the QB's we'll be passing on to do it. But I do think the player is good enough to warrant being taken there. I think he's special.

I wish Eli was about 5 years younger... this would be a real easy call. Alas, he is not.. and so, we do need to seriously consider going QB.
RE: .  
Keith : 3/5/2018 10:24 pm : link
In comment 13851571 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
FWIW, Ray Rice was pretty damn good when Baltimore won that SB.

Also, the Eagles, for example, didn't have an elite RB last season - but they were 3rd in rush yards and 4th in YPA - so, they were a top 5 rushing team this season.

I just think there are different ways to build a team and win.

If Barkley is going to be as much of a game-breaker as he's being billed, he's going to have an enormous impact. He'll open things up for Engram and Beckham and create all types of issues for defenses.

I wouldn't pass on him just because he's a running back. If the Giants believe he's this good and he's on the board, they should draft him.

Bell has such a massive impact in PIT. Everything goes through him in that offense. If Barkley can do that here, he's worth the 2nd pick.

Just my 2 cents.


I think Roethlisberger is what really makes that team go, without him Bell doesn’t have that impact, imo. Also, your point about the Eagles is a good reason not to use those resources on a back. An oline and good system can make a running game. Again, nobody is diminishing the importance of a running game, it’s just how you get there.

Imo, this team has major issues and they need to rebuild. I don’t think Eli is going in the right direction and I don’t know if we will be in this good of a position to find the next qb. It could be the only good thing about last year.
arc...  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 10:31 pm : link
Here is the problem (and I am going on intuition here, I do not have the facts) - I think the shelf life for a highly selected QB is greater than the shelf life for a highly selected RB. So it doesn't make sense to pay - first contract - the same for less likely production. Thus, the short and medium term ROI issue...If you hit with a QB early, that is great ROI considering their first contract...

Rudolph did not look good at the Combine. I want to like him but I am also very anti-Big 12 QBs - recent track record is not flattering.

.  
arcarsenal : 3/5/2018 10:53 pm : link
All fine points - I don't necessarily disagree with them. Some of this is me playing Devil's Advocate.

But I do think Barkley is a truly special talent.

What I wouldn't do is draft a QB out of fear.

I don't think "we won't get this chance again" or "the shelf life will be longer" are good reasons to take one. If we take a QB @ 2, I want it to be because Gettleman and Shurmur believe that player has what it takes to be a top-tier player in this league.

I want it to be be because they are convinced that QB is "the guy" for the New York Giants.

If they have a guy that they've got those really strong convictions on, then draft him.

I'm much more on the Barkley train now than I was a few weeks ago - but I still obviously want a QB and am not under any sort of illusions about how much time Eli has left.

I just have my concerns about each QB. I have no concerns about Barkley. That's the difference.

Side note - Rudolph has warts, and his combine wasn't so good - but there are some QB's in this league who had poor combines and went on to be pretty darn good (namely Brady and Brees - and no, I don't think Rudolph will ever be as good as either player)

What I like about Rudolph is that he spent 4 years @ OK St. He improved every year. His completion% rose year by year, and he capped his college career by throwing for nearly 5k yards and 40 TD's.

I have my concerns about Big 12 QB's myself - but I just wouldn't rule him out as a guy who may turn out to be a pretty decent NFL QB.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/5/2018 11:00 pm : link
BTW, speaking of.. I like that OK St. WR.. well, there's two - but Washington is a guy I like a lot.

He has deceptive speed. One of those guys you check the measureables on and don't see anything that jumps out, but when you watch him play, you see why he's been so productive.

He's a legitimate deep threat who can take the top off the defense. Just makes plays.

Don't love the WR class in general, but there are a couple guys I think are going to be pretty good.

Christian Kirk kind of reminds me of Golden Tate.

DJ Chark is another guy who raised his stock quite a bit during the combine, IMO.

(Sorry for the random tangent on WR's)
RE: RE: Well the 40 I can somewhat understand.  
chopperhatch : 3/5/2018 11:11 pm : link
In comment 13851028 Boatie Warrant said:
Quote:
In comment 13850977 Keith said:


Quote:


Speed is important for a RB. However, it is track speed which is completely different than football speed, but I can understand why it's judged for RB's. You want to test leg strength and explosion, test his squat power. To me, that would be a much better indicator for a RB to be able to guage lower body strength as it would translate to a football field. I don't agree regarding the bench. I don't see how it translates to the football field at all for a RB. Other than to prove that he's a freak of nature athletically.




You mean like an over 500lb squat? I don't think anyone can say the kid is not an athletic freak. Will his skills and power translate to the NFL? No one knows at this point, but his college tape indicates he is really good at all aspects of being a RB. Link - ( New Window )
The clean os more impressive than the squat to be honest. Although if he repped 525 5 times, his squat is prob more like 600+.

Keith youre crazy if you think squat numbers are more indicative of power than that vert. That squat is a better indicator of his ability to hold a block against a much bigger opponent.
arc...  
bw in dc : 3/5/2018 11:43 pm : link
It’s a strange WR crop.

I’m a Kirk fan. See him like most do - instant contributor in the slot. I see some Hines Ward in him...but faster.

Trey Quinn of SMU looked outstanding at the Combine. Looked real quick in space and had Velcro hands. I think he showed better than his teammate Sutton.

I was surprised that Steve Smith was so high on the route running Daesean Hamilton of Penn St. I’m a PSU guy - rarely miss a game - but didn’t see that high praise coming...

I am intrigued with the St Brown kid for ND. Production fell this year but the NFLN guys said he was a victim of some very poor QB play. Which is no lie...big target with some straight line speed...

Always liked Dante Pettis of UDub. Great return guy. But always seemed to make plays at receiver too...

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