I knew the roster was weak, but seeing a breakdown really drives it home. The Giants need to find a way to trade down and get some extra picks. They have a ton of holes to fill and the free agent landscape isn't great.
This is part of the reason I want a QB at 2(if of course the Giants like one enough). If the Giants take Barkley I fear they will waste much if not all of his prime trying to find their franchise QB and building up the rest of the roster.
New GM. New Head Coach. New Coordinators. Ross fired. Can't fire all the scouts before the draft(right ?). Gettleman is supposedly changing the philosophy on drafting players. Institutional change is hard. Only so many changes can happen at once. I'll admit that I'm a conservative person and I like safe choices.
Sounds like you have lost faith in John Mara? That is understandable.
Eric,
Well written but really focuses on how poorly constructed we are and how difficult it will be to replenish this roster. One has to hope that DG will be able to find good players who are less heralded but serviceable and we can start to rebuild the roster. Sure was not fun reading that review because I for one was probably looking through rose colored glasses at our roster. Oh well, let us look forward to the draft and free agency. One good free agent signing and some good prospects may make us all feel better about the team.
RE: Eric, what more change would you have wanted? Â
New GM. New Head Coach. New Coordinators. Ross fired. Can't fire all the scouts before the draft(right ?). Gettleman is supposedly changing the philosophy on drafting players. Institutional change is hard. Only so many changes can happen at once. I'll admit that I'm a conservative person and I like safe choices.
Sounds like you have lost faith in John Mara? That is understandable.
Not siding one way or the other. Dramatic change comes with its own risks and things can get worse. But as I point out in the article, a bit of a "half-assed" (for lack of a better phrase) approach was telegraphed as soon as they hired Accorsi as the consultant. Reese/Ross seemed like a packaged deal.
If you REALLY wanted to blow this up, you would have not gone back to Gettleman. Maybe you would have made a strong move for Saban (right or wrong) or at least talk to the Patriots about Belichick (maybe even as GM). Not saying they should or shouldn't have done so...merely pointing it out.
I forget which interview it was but Mara pretty much indicated he wasn't willing to enter this offseason with too much chaos (he could be right).
As for Mara, his track record thus far isn't stellar. They obviously really misjudged the situation since 2011, and the decisions made in January 2016 backfired.
who say the article is "depressing"...it should be. I've been a Giants fans for decades. I think many Giants fans are in denial about how low this team really got last year. The offense was in historically bad territory. The specials were probably the NFL's worst. And the defense that was supposed to be a team strength was a train wreck.
My offseason needs articles often make fans think the roster isn't in good shape because I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to the roster and I will point out the flaws. Every team - even the NFL Champs - have flaws. But this roster is a mess right now.
Like I said, imagine the WR corps if Odell suffers a high ankle sprain? Do we have a starting RB? Is there even ONE viable starter on this OL?
Right now, to me, the thing they have to get right is the QB situation for 2019, 2020, and beyond. If they get the QB right, the other areas can be more easily addressed this offseason and next.
good job Eric. I agree with your assessment. I just don't see how Â
Makes sense. I'm hoping that Gettleman & Shurmur prove to be a big upgrade over Reese & McAdoo. I think Shurmur will definitely be an upgrade and I'm excited to see what Gettleman does with the roster.
My expectations for Giants football have been drastically lowered with how terrible they were last year. I want to watch competitive football and have a chance to make the playoffs at the end of the season. I just want to get back to respectability.
Yeah why would you hire a guy you know well who did an excellent job for your franchise whle he was with your organization and left for a promotion which resulted in him building a roster, going 15-1 and making it to the Superbowl?
Makes sense. I'm hoping that Gettleman & Shurmur prove to be a big upgrade over Reese & McAdoo. I think Shurmur will definitely be an upgrade and I'm excited to see what Gettleman does with the roster.
My expectations for Giants football have been drastically lowered with how terrible they were last year. I want to watch competitive football and have a chance to make the playoffs at the end of the season. I just want to get back to respectability.
My guess is Shurmur stops the bleeding. I just don't know enough about him. He is bland, bland, bland. But I'm encouraged by all of the positive comments he receives from officials and players around the NFL. That said, we just don't know what kind of coach he will be.
RE: 'you would have not gone back to Gettleman'... Â
Yeah why would you hire a guy you know well who did an excellent job for your franchise whle he was with your organization and left for a promotion which resulted in him building a roster, going 15-1 and making it to the Superbowl?
/sarcasm off
Yet at the same time, this organization (including Accorsi) picked Reese over Gettleman. Remember? And Gettleman was fired by the Panthers. He's now 67 years old. Other than Ross, the same people are still in place. So if you think there was an issue with the Giants front-office culture, nothing has really changed all that much.
It could work out great. But it's not significant change and we shouldn't be lulled into thinking that way.
that our need level for HR is high. We have arguably the best receiver in the league and a very good slot man. Just because Beckham could get hurt again doesn't mean our need is high. You could say that about any position.
that our need level for HR is high. We have arguably the best receiver in the league and a very good slot man. Just because Beckham could get hurt again doesn't mean our need is high. You could say that about any position.
that our need level for HR is high. We have arguably the best receiver in the league and a very good slot man. Just because Beckham could get hurt again doesn't mean our need is high. You could say that about any position.
I see FOUR wide open spots at wide receiver with MAYBE one of the 10 other players making the team and contributing. That's not good in any WR situation. Most teams have a pretty good idea of who their top wide receivers are. The STARTER opposite of Beckham is probably not on this roster.
it's not significant change and we shouldn't be lulled... Â
I disagree. I don't know how much more significant it can be to your organization to revamp the entire criteria for scouting pkayers and hire a new HC.
Let's not forget Reese won two Lombardi's but the Ross hire was his undoing. The roster slowly deteriorated once he came on board. It's a very good sign Gettelamn realized that and his key move was to show him the door without delay...even before the Draft which speaks volumes.
Free Agency - Discount Rack
Pep22 : 10:49 am
OG, probably RG - Jack Mewhort. Young and talented but two years of knee injuries. Obviously requires a major physical exam to determine the knee health.
OL Cameron Fleming - versatile guy. I could see him as a viable RT if NYG gets Norwell at LG and perhaps another interior OL in RD2. Chris Hubbard may be another guy.
WR - Jordan Matthews - I think he would be a nice compliment to OBJ, SS, EE. Donte Moncrief may be another option as well.
Note: Discount guys are what they are for a reason. They are flawed players. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Moncrief
Mr. Nickels : 10:52 am : link : reply
would be a good signing
I agree with your list
Rjanyg : 10:54 am : link : reply
Especially Fleming. I think Norwell is the main target with Fleming right behind him. I like Moncrief a little more than Matthews as an X receiver.
some other top FA targets besides Norwell are Bradham OLB and McKinnon RB.
Good
AcidTest : 10:56 am : link : reply
list, but I'd pass on Mewhort because of the injuries. The Giants have been injury plagued for years.
quick question
Pep22 : 11:00 am : link : reply
who was the OL draft by CLE from perhaps FSU named Cameron ________?
while I agree that we need some receivers, i don't think our need is especially high there in relation to some other positions like OL and LB. We have Odell Beckham, Sterling Shepard, and Evan Engram who basically is a receiver.
Odell Beckham, Sterling Shepard, and Evan Engram Â
Some fans tend to be too optimistic some times and it seems Eric swung the other way and has become way too depressed about the team.
"In sum, though not to the serious degree of January 2016, this still has the feel of somewhat half-assed approach to it."
Half-assed? That's pretty insulting and I vehemently disagree with that descriptor. As others have said, we have a new GM and new player personnel evaluation processes. I bet that after the draft you'll see more shift in scouting and a new VP of Scouting and Pro Personnel.
We have a new head coach. You pretty much tear into him and call him a failure or bland? He won Assistant Coach of the Year. C'mon now. Not only that, he basically revamped the whole coaching staff while keeping a few position coaches on board. You highlight keeping some coaches but want to ignore the impact of the rest?
Get out of here with that noise.
Then your position descriptions I can pretty much agree with except WR. We need a better #2 for sure, but that's not crazy to expect that we can find someone there. Does every NFL team have two amazingly good WRs? Our secondary is in pretty good shape I think, our DL is, and we'll have to see the mess of our LB situation shakes out. Like you send depends on JPP and OV.
I think you're getting cranky and cynical in your old age. The giants need to start winning again because this can't be good for your health.
Some fans tend to be too optimistic some times and it seems Eric swung the other way and has become way too depressed about the team.
"In sum, though not to the serious degree of January 2016, this still has the feel of somewhat half-assed approach to it."
Half-assed? That's pretty insulting and I vehemently disagree with that descriptor. As others have said, we have a new GM and new player personnel evaluation processes. I bet that after the draft you'll see more shift in scouting and a new VP of Scouting and Pro Personnel.
We have a new head coach. You pretty much tear into him and call him a failure or bland? He won Assistant Coach of the Year. C'mon now. Not only that, he basically revamped the whole coaching staff while keeping a few position coaches on board. You highlight keeping some coaches but want to ignore the impact of the rest?
Get out of here with that noise.
Then your position descriptions I can pretty much agree with except WR. We need a better #2 for sure, but that's not crazy to expect that we can find someone there. Does every NFL team have two amazingly good WRs? Our secondary is in pretty good shape I think, our DL is, and we'll have to see the mess of our LB situation shakes out. Like you send depends on JPP and OV.
I think you're getting cranky and cynical in your old age. The giants need to start winning again because this can't be good for your health.
Love ya Eric.
Dodge, as soon as Accorsi was hired, most of us knew Gettleman was going to be back. (Hell, many of us knew it before Accorsi was hired). Mara went with what he knew. Is that wrong? Opinions will vary. But that's what he did. In a different fashion, he did the same thing in January 2016 when he fired Coughlin but no one else. They basically traded McAdoo for Coughlin.
I did qualify in my article that we may see some personnel office changes after the draft. (My "for now" comment).
Nowhere did I call Shurmur a failure. In fact, I said he had the highest floor. But watching paint dry is more exciting than listening to this guy. That doesn't mean he will be a bad coach. Belichick's press conferences are boring too. I'm simply pointing out the obvious.
If Apple is not long for this team or he doesn't play better, and if Ross departs, the Giants are in rough shape at CB. They basically have Jenkins and two big holes.
If they stick with the 4-3, and you believe in JPP and Vernon, they are in good shape. But if they go with the 3-4, then they have glaring needs at DE and a second NT.
The whole Accorsi thing was laughable for sure, but my opinion without any results, is that the hire was the right one. But what do I know? I'm not going to fault DG based on the "hiring search" or whatever you want to call it.
The one thing I do like, so far, is that rumors and leaks are completely different from previous draft/FA cycles. We'll see if it continues.
As far as how Shurmer sounds? Who cares what he sounds like to the press. We'll see if he can get his players to play. I was listening to Zimmer talk on Sirius radio last week and he sounded just as boring as Shurmer. I don't think you should judge him just based on that.
Anyway, regardless of your caveats that you put in there, I think you're being overly critical and negative in your review. But, based on the product we've gotten over the last 6 years, it's not undeserved.
If Apple is not long for this team or he doesn't play better, and if Ross departs, the Giants are in rough shape at CB. They basically have Jenkins and two big holes.
If they stick with the 4-3, and you believe in JPP and Vernon, they are in good shape. But if they go with the 3-4, then they have glaring needs at DE and a second NT.
I'll quote this post as to not confused the two replies.
If Ross departs, yes we'll have bigger holes. I can't see a future for Apple here, but you never know. Still, if Ross leaves I think we'll have a need for CB but not a massive hole.
As for the DL/LB in a 3-4, I think we'll see JPP play an end and OV play LB somewhere. We'll need to find 1-2 athletic LBs in FA to get in there and play a few other positions.
Crazy for calling this team incredibly devoid of talent. Where are the legions of dopes who think the 11-5 season is what we are instead of all the losing we have done for 4 of the past 5 years? This team absolutely sucks right now. We lack quality at RB, OL, LB, S, CB and have zero depth except for maybe TE. What an abysmal job Reese has done. We have Odell, whoppee.
I disagree with you about Gettleman, I firmly believe his loss from pro personnel was the biggest blow to this front office and I am extremely happy he's back. The dude finds talented players, end of story.
I wouldn't automatically discount your proposed line-up since the old 3-4 that I grew up with has largely being revamped with hybrids. But in the old 3-4, I have a hard time seeing JPP accepting being a two-gap 3-4 DE who just does the dirty work for the linebackers.
Long story short, since we don't know what Bettcher plans, predicting the front seven right now is just guessing.
Crazy for calling this team incredibly devoid of talent. Where are the legions of dopes who think the 11-5 season is what we are instead of all the losing we have done for 4 of the past 5 years? This team absolutely sucks right now. We lack quality at RB, OL, LB, S, CB and have zero depth except for maybe TE. What an abysmal job Reese has done. We have Odell, whoppee.
I disagree with you about Gettleman, I firmly believe his loss from pro personnel was the biggest blow to this front office and I am extremely happy he's back. The dude finds talented players, end of story.
Joey, I think people are coming away from this article with the belief that I am CRITICAL of Gettleman and Shurmur. That's not my intent.
My intent was to point out that Mara decided to play it safe. They are safe, conservative choices. That can be a good thing. Or a bad thing. We'll see.
My intent was simply to counter that this is some sort of sweeping sea change. The exclamation point to me was the decision to basically name Eli the 2018 starter.
I'm praying for a quick rebound. But it wouldn't shock me if Eli's play this year continues to be an issue.
were the laughing stock of the NFL pretty much every year until they changed the culture with a new president and new HC, got physical up front, and then proceeded to nearly knock off the Pats in the title game.
The NFL is a year by year league. Giants can easily be in the playoffs next year. As long as you have some talent, all it takes is a few balls to bounce your way, good coaching, and you're back in the swing.
the gloom and doom around here...it is completely justified. What I don't get is that we made changes to GM and HC which everyone wanted, and the results are not in yet because well...it's March....and people are still bitching.
The traps we all fell into last year were like the WR situation.
The general consensus on BBI was that Victor Cruz was done and that Brandon Marshall was going to be an upgrade. Well, based on the fact that Cruz barely got into another camp and then was cut, the former was accurate. But Marshall was clearly not an upgrade either. He was terrible. And not having even a viable player opposite Beckham hurt. Aside from the two Eagles games, Shepard seemed to have problems making plays down the field out of the slot. I hope he continues to improve. But we need another WR. (But we have so many holes everywhere else, fans are understandably not even concentrating on that fact).
Now Jordan is saying the Giants are trying to re-sign Darkwa. Why? We had better pray Gallman is a legit player.
And I don't know if I've EVER seen the Giants' offensive line more unsettled. We don't know who any of the starters are going to be at this point. We may not even have any of the starters on the roster.
At LB, if we stick with the 4-3, we're desperate for outside linebackers. If we go 3-4, we're going to have to take a leap of faith than either JPP or Vernon can play LB.
So many holes. They will have to sign a bunch of bargain basement guys.
Given the state of the roster, if Gettleman really liked one of the QBs, I would think he would have to take him. But I'm not sure he is going to do that.
were the laughing stock of the NFL pretty much every year until they changed the culture with a new president and new HC, got physical up front, and then proceeded to nearly knock off the Pats in the title game.
The NFL is a year by year league. Giants can easily be in the playoffs next year. As long as you have some talent, all it takes is a few balls to bounce your way, good coaching, and you're back in the swing.
The Jaguars actually had a pretty decent roster OTHER than quarterback.
but let's be honest. NFL is about coaching and QB play. If you have an above average at both, chances of making the playoffs are pretty high.
Our roster isn't devoid of talent. In fact, we have a lot of it.
Eli is a question mark. Even if we completely write off the last two years, you are projecting an older QB a couple years out. He's probably no worse than what half the league is trotting out there, but this idea that he just snaps back to prime Eli at 37 yrs old because we fired Reese and McAdoo is overly optimistic.
Also, I think this article is a fair breakdown of the talent level on this roster. An overlooked factor by fans are the amount of capable role players that are seeing their deals expire like Cockrell, Kennard, Darkwa, Brent Jones and Fluker. These open up additional holes beyond the obvious ones which get overlooked. Corner is probably worse off than even Eric let on, it's a huge problem that any other year would be this board's focus.
We have some good top end talent but we're almost baren behind those pieces. There's a lot of work to do, too much for one offseason.
Crazy for calling this team incredibly devoid of talent. Where are the legions of dopes who think the 11-5 season is what we are instead of all the losing we have done for 4 of the past 5 years? This team absolutely sucks right now. We lack quality at RB, OL, LB, S, CB and have zero depth except for maybe TE. What an abysmal job Reese has done. We have Odell, whoppee.
I disagree with you about Gettleman, I firmly believe his loss from pro personnel was the biggest blow to this front office and I am extremely happy he's back. The dude finds talented players, end of story.
Joey, I think people are coming away from this article with the belief that I am CRITICAL of Gettleman and Shurmur. That's not my intent.
My intent was to point out that Mara decided to play it safe. They are safe, conservative choices. That can be a good thing. Or a bad thing. We'll see.
My intent was simply to counter that this is some sort of sweeping sea change. The exclamation point to me was the decision to basically name Eli the 2018 starter.
I'm praying for a quick rebound. But it wouldn't shock me if Eli's play this year continues to be an issue.
Eric, great write up as usual. And you are not wrong, Shurmur and Gettleman are safe, conservative choice, and that can be either good or bad. I tend to think that despite the safe and conservative nature of the hires, that the hires are for the better, and here is why.
Both men are 180 degrees out from the men they replaced. McAdoo was stubborn, inflexible, and inconsistent with his players. By all accounts Shrumur is adaptable, creative, and consistent (adult), even if he is bland. (I tend to like bland, especially if it wins.)
Reese had gone all in on building the Giants from the outside in. Money and premium draft picks were spent on WRs, CBs, and impact pass rushers. While the expenditure on resources was not bad in a vacuum, he did so at the expense of the OL, LBs, and RBs. Gettleman comes from a completely different point of view. Win in the trenches first.
I continue to believe the Mara's goal this offseason was to return the Giants to their foundation. The foundation that is exemplified best by the Parcells, Coughlin, and Gettleman view of football. Control the line of scrimmage and run the ball, stop the run, and get after the QB. Do those three things and win. The Giants have not consistently done all three of those things since 2008. Time for that to change.
Some areas of the team will have to wait. You correctly identify the lackluster nature of the WR corps after OBJ. But adding more playmakers out wide may have to wait until after the lines and LBs are addressed. I am also of the philosophy (and I think you will see it in this draft) that you can get quality role players at WR in mid rounds. I highlight the Rams Cooper Kupp as a prominent example. If you can find a guy with good hands who runs good routes (Penn State's DaeSean Hamilton comes to mind) but may not have elite speed, he can be very successful in an offense that already feature OBJ and Evan Engram. The Giants have the corner stones of their receiving corps, they need to fill in the interchangeable parts. Given Shurmur's love of the pass catching running back, I would be surprised to see the Giants consider taking Nyheim Hines, who started his college career as a WR and converted to RB. He has elite speed, good hands, and runs routes like a WR. I think he makes a ton of sense for this team.
Sure the JR and McAdoo replacements seem vanilla and predictable, but I strongly believe that at their core, they are both different people when it comes to how they look at football. In my view, exactly what the Giants needed.
Crazy for calling this team incredibly devoid of talent. Where are the legions of dopes who think the 11-5 season is what we are instead of all the losing we have done for 4 of the past 5 years? This team absolutely sucks right now. We lack quality at RB, OL, LB, S, CB and have zero depth except for maybe TE. What an abysmal job Reese has done. We have Odell, whoppee.
I disagree with you about Gettleman, I firmly believe his loss from pro personnel was the biggest blow to this front office and I am extremely happy he's back. The dude finds talented players, end of story.
you're spot on. While I did not foresee a 3-13 debacle, I never bought into th SB hype, or even the contender hype last year. The holes were obvious.
Eric you would probaby have to go back to the mid-70s to find such Â
legitimately stocked with star potential and quality depth was TE, and the idiot McAdoo couldn't, or more likely refused to, figure a way to get them on the field together. He buried Ellison.
Current starter: Personally, I don't think Eli has much left.
Depth: I think Webb has sufficient talent and personality to handle the backup role.
Outlook: Happy to have Eli start one more year and groom the next guy. However, if that next guy is Rosen, he's the one guy in this draft that is probably ready immediately.
RB:
Current starter: Probably not on the roster.
Depth: Perkins and Gallman are fine depth guys.
Outlook: I'd like to see them pursue Carlos Hyde and save RDs 2-4 on the OL and LB.
WR:
Current starter: OBJ is as good as it gets. SS is outstanding in the slot. Now X WR on the roster once BM is cut.
Depth: None to speak of although EE cushions that.
Outlook: Moncreif or Matthews shouldn't break the bank and would be valuable additions (one of the two).
TE:
Current starter: EE should be a pro bowler.
Depth: Elison and Adams are fine.
Outlook: Perhaps the only position that doesn't need to be addressed.
OL:
Current starter: Literally nothing to brag about here although I am fine with Jones at C.
Depth: Greco and Jerry are decent.
Outlook: Do we have enough $ for Norwell and Fleming? Then a RD2 interior lineman i.e. Hernandez? Wyatt Teller, Brian Allen and David Bright are guys I like late in the draft.
DL:
Current starter: Current group esp the DEs aren't ideal for 3-4, but plenty of talent here.
Depth: Acceptable.
Outlook: With numerous holes elsewhere, I think its tough to allocate resources here.
LB:
Current starter: Almost literally nothing in the cupboard.
Depth: See prior line.
Outlook: Kevin Minter would be a cheap alternative. Kennard would be a solid guy to re-sign. Josey Jewell should last to the 4th. Nothing not to love about Vander Esch but are we not forced to go OL in RD2 after a RD1 QB choice? Jack Cichy would be a good value late in the draft.
S:
Current starter: Collins, DRC.
Depth: Adams is a solid backup type. Thompson looks like he's a step slow and a poor tackler. Behre is probably one more inevitable concussion away from retirement.
Outlook: Terrell Edmunds and Quin Blanding are two mid rounders I like.
CB:
Current starter: Despite last year, Jenkins is fine. Is Apple a fixable reclamation project (unlikely).
Depth: I would like to have Cockrell back.
Outlook: Will have to invest in this position as well.
RE: Odell Beckham, Sterling Shepard, and Evan Engram Â
with possible exception of the Steelers, that trio is the best in the NFL
UMMMM, that is a bit of hyperbole and homerism there. Engram needs to prove it year 2. Sheppard needs to be more than just a collector of numbers in blowouts and lost seasons.
The Giants need a viable 3rd WR and most certainly can use a bigger target (what Marshall was supposed to be).
This is a very realistic assessment of a very bad team. Â
As a GIANTS fan for more than sixty years, this is very arguably the worst overall team that I have ever seen the GIANTS field. Despite a few real stars, it is really that bad - even worse than most if not all of the teams during the fifteen years of lousy football.
Reese and Ross slowly but pretty steadily turned the Championship team that they inherited in 2007 into the second worst team in the entire league, and McAdoo was the final straw that broke the camel's back.
And Mara let them do it. Ownership has to shoulder the real blame for this mess because they failed to act sooner. And when they finally did act two years ago, they made not one but two really bad decisions - keeping Reese AND hiring McAdoo. In doing so, they lost a major asset in Coughlin and failed to hire Marone, the guy that should have been the next Head Coach.
That said, it's time to wipe the slate clean and start over with the best that they could find now, and I think they have done that with Gettleman and Shurmur. As Eric said, thank God that they didn't pick McDaniels.
Considering the awful state of this mess, it is going to take years to truly rebuild this disaster because it has to be done in steps, some of which take a year or more to begin to produce real change.
The rebuilding has started with the firing of Reese, McAdoo, Ross, Quinn, and so on.
The scouting staff won't be overhauled until after the draft, but DG is already changing how they do business, a basic step that had to be taken because for whatever reason, the GIANTS drafting was simply not getting the job done. The changes here, if successful, will take a couple of years to begin producing positive results.
And the purge of players has started, if slowly, and will accelerate as we move through veteran free agency, the draft, and summer camp. But there are way too many problems to address in one off-season. They can't solve all the problems overnight, but look for 40-plus new players on the combined roster and Practice Squad by the kickoff of the 2019 (not a mis-print) season. Most of the players on the current roster will be gone by then.
And yes, they could get lucky and sneak into the playoffs this season, but they won't go far. They are not going to seriously challenge for another Lombardi Trophy for at least several more seasons. It probably won't happen until after Eli's successor has been found and has at least two or three seasons under his belt. Personally, I think even finding that guy is still at least a couple of seasons away.
The GIANTS will contend for the Lombardi Trophy again someday, but don't hold your breath until then. The return to prominence is going to take time.
Not as good as 11-5 record in 2016 since the Offense Â
with possible exception of the Steelers, that trio is the best in the NFL
UMMMM, that is a bit of hyperbole and homerism there. Engram needs to prove it year 2. Sheppard needs to be more than just a collector of numbers in blowouts and lost seasons.
The Giants need a viable 3rd WR and most certainly can use a bigger target (what Marshall was supposed to be).
But even though the situation is gloomy, (and the old Parcell adage apples - "you are what your record says you are"); the cupboard's not bare ..
In 2016, the team fielded six ALL PROs - Beckham, Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, Collins, DRC. THOSE are the players who gave us 11-5. it wasn't an illusion.
It's ALL about the massive holes on offense, (especially the O-line), now ...
The ship sank when the injury bug hit the entire team in 2016. High draft picks Pugh and Richburg (both never played to that level), then both got hurt and the O-line went from barely ordinary to awful.
The other high pick, Flowers, finally seemed to find himself, hopefully, he'll continue to improve.
And, Eric you say QB; My response - "Come on, man", Rome is burning and you want us to buy a shiny fiddle ??!!
However, I recall the Cowboys defense having a bunch of no names and lacked talent at almost every position except the MLB and look at what Marinelli did with them, I think they ended with a top 5 defense 2years ago. When you have a coach who can get the best out of their players (see the patriots) the scheme will work. There's a lot of wholes on this team I 100% agree with that. BUT, this team does also have a lot of talent. Good QB (at least for next year) great WR, a TE that's probably going to be a mega star and Ellison which now we have a coach that knows how to run an NFL offense. Defensively we also have some wholes, we have to address the LB position we literally have nothing there......0
I think this team can make the playoffs next season, I truly believe that. Hopefully we are smart in FA and the draft goes our way. This team is not as far off as most think. McAdont had no idea had to run a pro style offense. No running schemes.....nothing!! We have more than enough money in the cap to make a stride in FA. Sorry if I seem like a glass half full kinda guy, but I'm also not a homer. Just my 2 cents!
as the GM. It really shouldn't matter that he once worked for the team. He seems to have a solid track record, can create a vision for the team and will not put up with aging expensive players save for Eli.
Shurmur was probably their best fit for helping a new QB during a transition. He may be able to help Eli out too.
I'm pleased with new staff.
Saying it since he was canned, but JR left the roster in shambles Â
and this moribund summary only reinforces my assertion. This is not a one year turnaround folks. Another sub .500 season and perhaps another top 10 pick is necessary to get this thing headed in the right direction for real (see aberration of 2016).
Has been a huge failure up to this point. We all have to hope that he got this right or this franchise is in huge trouble and in danger of being bad for the next decade. I agree with a worried outlook, Reese ruined this franchise, and he did it with people not even noticing or not wanting to notice. Look what he spent in free agency on the defense for one decent year in 2016.
If Mara had a brain he would have fired Reese and hired Coughlin to take over the GM position. I would bet anything that had it not been for Coughlin that Reese would have ruined this franchise years ago. Then Mara sticks by Reese, that really is a worry. he didn't even know who was the gut he needed to keep, nothing is more worrisome.
If you do that, a lot of other stuff will fall into place. The Giants won 2 SBs without great RBs (same for LBs). Did the Eagles or Pats have great RBs? The Giants have enough players at RB with a decent free agent if they have a competent OL - it does not have to be great. If they can move the ball on the ground and make play action a real threat, Eli is good enough as are the guys he is throwing to, to score enough points to win. And, if the defense gets enough rest while the offense is moving the ball, this defense, warts and all, will make enough plays to win. The number priority by far in the short term is fix the OL and that’s why Reese deserved to be fired. Do that and the Giants will be ok if not better than that
Real good review by Eric but I don't see a "sky is falling" situation Â
because I think the sky already fell. The Giants really can't be any worse this year.
So just some random comments.
I have seen JPP's weight reported as everything from 255 to 290. Does anyone know? If he is over 280 lbs, he probably ought to be a DE. If he is under 280, maybe he can be a rush LB. I see the flexibility of Vernon and JPP both standing up in a 3-4 and one of them dropping down to DE in a 4-3 front. The QB's head would be on a swivel.
If the Giants and Bromley come to an agreement, I can see Bromley as a 3-4 DE.
I see some candidates for the Inside LB next to Goodson. Herzlich could be one if he is re-signed. He wasn't a good MLB or outside LB in a 4-3, but he might fit in a 3-4
Three possible positions for Flowers, other than LT. He is too talented physically not to be able to start somewhere. By the time we get to the draft, there should be some semblance of at least an adequate o-line even if we don't count Flowers. I can't imagine DG going into the draft and trying to find a Day 1 starting o-lineman.
Signing Darkwa or a veteran RB is almost guaranteed.
The WR situation is really bad. I forgot about how bad it is. Picking a WR in the draft is a crapshoot. Can the Giants find a cap casualty?
Was the reason why I wanted Reese to be fired. He was an absolute disaster.
DG has a tremendous hill to climb and get this team back to become a legit contender. Using the draft picks to fill holes is the quick way to get us excited, but his use of FA signings will be the main factor that will show us what sort of team he'll put together.
Not being overwhelmed by the Gettleman and pat shurmur hires, but make no mistake there is a wholesale philosophical change taking place here in both hires.
We will see what the results will be, but so far I am optimistic in what Gettleman and pat shurmur will do for this franchise.
If Gettleman had no history with the giants he would have been a great hire, and it doesn't matter what his connection to Accorsi was. I don't know what Reese did or didn't do day to day, but I love that Gettleman is a film junkie. Gettleman knows what he is looking for in players, he has a philosophical approach and a plan to build a team. I never felt that Reese had that. Reese drafted players that just never fit and were captains or athletes more than football players.
Pat shurmur impressed me with the hiring of bettcher. It would gave been easy for shurmur to pay a favor back to spagnuolo and keep him as defensive coordinator, but he didn't. Pat shurmur went out of the box and hired someone he has no connection to. He hired someone who gave him fits.
Ben mcadoo was as clueless as they come. He showed zero creativity, adaptability or communication. Pat shurmur brings the opposite. Pat shurmur has run various offensive schemes and adapted to a wide range of different player skills. I am really excited to see what shurmur will do with manning, Beckham and Engram.
As far as manning goes. If you think Gettleman just based his opinion of Eli off of one game, then I have a bridge to sell you. I can guarantee you that by this point, Gettleman watched just about every single throw Eli made this year.
I don't believe for one second that Gettleman and shurmur are blowing smoke up our butts about Eli. They truly believe that Eli is not the problem. Fix the offensive line, get some semblance of a run game going and watch what eli can do.
We will see a completely revamped roster with a lot of changes, but like I said the results will speak for themselves
I wouldn't automatically discount your proposed line-up since the old 3-4 that I grew up with has largely being revamped with hybrids. But in the old 3-4, I have a hard time seeing JPP accepting being a two-gap 3-4 DE who just does the dirty work for the linebackers.
Long story short, since we don't know what Bettcher plans, predicting the front seven right now is just guessing.
Eric, it has been said many times by Shurmur and Gettlemen that Betcher is going to run a 3-4 1 gap Hybrid defense. JPP will not be lining up solely as a 5 Tech. He will shade as well. His best season was 2011 when he lined up inside in the NASCAR. He has lost some edge speed and his lack of hand usage has limited his effectiveness outside. He will be much better playing LDE in the 3-4.
The traps we all fell into last year were like the WR situation.
The general consensus on BBI was that Victor Cruz was done and that Brandon Marshall was going to be an upgrade. Well, based on the fact that Cruz barely got into another camp and then was cut, the former was accurate. But Marshall was clearly not an upgrade either. He was terrible. And not having even a viable player opposite Beckham hurt. Aside from the two Eagles games, Shepard seemed to have problems making plays down the field out of the slot. I hope he continues to improve. But we need another WR. (But we have so many holes everywhere else, fans are understandably not even concentrating on that fact).
Now Jordan is saying the Giants are trying to re-sign Darkwa. Why? We had better pray Gallman is a legit player.
And I don't know if I've EVER seen the Giants' offensive line more unsettled. We don't know who any of the starters are going to be at this point. We may not even have any of the starters on the roster.
At LB, if we stick with the 4-3, we're desperate for outside linebackers. If we go 3-4, we're going to have to take a leap of faith than either JPP or Vernon can play LB.
So many holes. They will have to sign a bunch of bargain basement guys.
Given the state of the roster, if Gettleman really liked one of the QBs, I would think he would have to take him. But I'm not sure he is going to do that.
Agree with most of it but not the WR piece. They’ll be able to find decent 3-4-5 guys on the cheap in FA or after cuts.
The focus needs to be OL and front 7 on defense. If they get that straightened out they’ll play winning football.
DG said he would watch the film then he anointed Eli as the starting QB what film did he watch to come to that decision? He had to have looked at the DL film other than Harrison and Tomlinson no idea why the other guys are still on this roster they played like trash. At LB he must be feeling great because not one should even be on the JAG list but he has not done anything yet to distance himself from them. The secondary to include the highly overrated Collins are without a doubt just extremely overpaid and extremely dysfunctional that film should have been eye opening. I’ve seen bad games but these guys did this for like 14 games that’s hard to accomplish even intentionally.
The OL has one guy who may belong on an NFL roster if he can move from LT to somewhere else hopefully. The rest could all be replaced by drafted or UDFA as easy as pie don’t get the hype on guys who did nothing for a team desperate to find anybody. The WR’s with OBJ played about the same without OBJ so I’m not buying the return of OBJ just elevates all of them to star status. We have one TE on the roster an overpaid limited tools TE and a young guy who took a major step backwards. At HB we have two young guys with very close to the same skill set but neither a complete back to feel comfortable going forward with. Special teams should have easily been a team strength but they also spent the year in the outhouse.
So as Eric said we have maybe 12-15 guys who should be on this roster right now if DG watched this teams films. The point is that this entire team took twelve steps backwards and now today we still don’t know what defense and offense we are going to see going forward. That’s what I call a major rebuilding or head office failure to realize you can’t turn shit into sugar overnight.
You'd have to tell me where any Giants official said what kind of defense they were going to run. As specific as I've seen was the Gettleman quote I put in the article.
That all said, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the type of defense they run. That would make sense.
This is the worst Giants team I've seen in thirty years Â
A 3-13 group whose legacy to this point (with the obvious exception of Eli) is shit talking each other in the media, suspensions, a stupid commercial during an Eagles title, a boat trip, and just general stupidity and shittiness. Being a Giants fan has never been more miserable or embarrassing in those thirty years. If news came out that we had an entirely new 53 man roster that would be fine.
RE: This is the worst Giants team I've seen in thirty years Â
Interestingly though I don't think, other then LB the roster is much worse then last off season.
The team has had no depth and has been over allocating resources at whatever the biggest problem was.
In my opinion, OL and LB and special teams were huge needs last year and were not addressed.
The one position NYG improved was TE. Every other position down graded unless you consider OL remaining same level of suck for 2 years.
The team appears 3 years away and Eli will likely be done at that point if he isn't done now.
I think Gettleman will be in the best spot possible if the browns want to trade up from 4 to 2. That can fetch a small haul and would definitely add an additional 2 plus somethinf more. We need to accumulate talent. We need a quantity of quality to compliment obj, Engram, Collins , snacks and our other top players.
far more right than wrong.
I've said it several times:
Reese ignored the OL in premium rounds except for Beatty the first half of his tenure, and failed the 2nd half in selections made and opportunities ignored; the failure of selection until rd. 6 in '17, should have resulted in IMMEDIATE firing. LB failure dittos OL.
However, complacent ownership, especially after the EF , even EA selections, bears a great share of responsibility; especially when it itself declared in '13/'14 a desire to return to Giants football, but player selection was to the contrary.
The roster is a mess; 2 if not 3 of 4 high contract D players have underperformed and hold the cap hostage far more than Manning.
I have faith in DGs ability to get PLAYERS, hopefully PS and staff can make them succeed.
Though not a great draft it is a good one to get PLAYERS,especially if someone wants the #2 within the top 7, and/ or we can move at least 1 of the under performers for a top half rd 2 pick.
The wheels have been falling off this bus since game 9 of 2012; its not gonna run smooth overnight.
FA starts in a week, so the rebuild starts there, with 1/4 the cap Cleveland has... so it won't be easy, nor will it be impossible either.
My apology to Pat Shurmur for never spelling his name correctly Â
A 3-13 group whose legacy to this point (with the obvious exception of Eli) is shit talking each other in the media, suspensions, a stupid commercial during an Eagles title, a boat trip, and just general stupidity and shittiness. Being a Giants fan has never been more miserable or embarrassing in those thirty years. If news came out that we had an entirely new 53 man roster that would be fine.
Pffft, try the late 60s and 70s group to see really bad teams.
Injuries and McAdoo scuttled 2017. There were/are better players on this roster than in the above mentioned 15 yr period.
I watch other teams and with few exceptions don't see outstandingly talented teams. Yes the linebackers are awful and so is the oline. Even so Gallamn and Darkwa averaged 4.3 yards per carry... Gallman can play. They are thin at WR, yes but really strong at TE if they allow both Engram and Ellison on the field at the same time (Belichick 2 TE system). You can find WRs in the draft.
Fix the oline with smart FA signings, draft Nelson, Hernandez, Smith or Wynn. Re-sign Jones but look for an upgrade. Get Solder or Fleming. Forget Norwell - too much money. You can get 3 decent players for the money that Norwell will command.
I refuse to be pessimistic until after the draft and FA. Then we will see.
I wish I could be hopeful that JPP and Eli will earn their preposterous compensations this year, but I'm not. Surely the team will be a bit better when the housecleaning and FA acquisitions are done, but I don't expect much. It took years to get here and is likely to take years to get out of it.
Not sure about every position need being as urgent as you describe; but linebacker and offensive line are high to desperate for sure. We're getting alot of healthy bodies back and that is definitely going to help.
but i'm not so pessimistic about the defense as i think after free agency they will be fine here and that betcher is a huge upgrade over spags. i trust he will know how to deploy both JPP and OV.
Mara went with what he knew. Is that wrong? Opinions will vary. But that's what he did. In a different fashion, he did the same thing in January 2016 when he fired Coughlin but no one else.
And when he hired Coughlin, he was going with what he knew.
Do you remember in 2003, during a Giants bye week, when John Mara, Tom Coughlin, and Jim Fassel attended a BC football game together? I'm convinced the only reason Fassel was invited was because they didn't like how it would look if it was just Mara and Coughlin. At least that was my thought at the time, even though the Giants were 2-1 and there was little hint of the debacle to follow.
is high. It becomes desperate if we don't address it during the draft.
You are right.
But I fear that the new brass at Jints Central may really be of this mindset - Eli has 3+ more years; and they trust Shurmur, and this may be the main reason he was hired, to craft and mold Webb as the heir apparent...
But I fear that the new brass at Jints Central may really be of this mindset - Eli has 3+ more years;
Eli has only two years left on his deal and I think they would like to avoid the cost of an extension, which would be in excess of $30+M/year given QB inflation. The only way they don't go QB with the #2 overall is if they don't believe in any of the QBs available to them at the time. Which begs the question: what do you do if you have one and only one QB on your draft board that you like with that pick? What kind of poker player is Gettleman? Accorsi was the absolute worst.
Quote:
they trust Shurmur, and this may be the main reason he was hired, to craft and mold Webb as the heir apparent...
I don't think they hired Shurmur specifically for Webb, but I'm sure they valued his ability to coach up whoever might be the QB of the future and put him in an offense that maximizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. If you remember from Gettleman's opening press conference, he seemed to make it clear that his preference was for a HC from the defensive side of the ball. It shows how Gettleman isn't rigid in his thinking. The right man is the right man regardless of whether he fits your prototype or not. He will apply that same flexibility to the draft, I would imagine.
I'm happy with Gettleman and Shurmur. Neither was my choice when the process started, but the more I got to know about them, the more impressed I became. The proof will be in the pudding, but for the time being I feel like the Giants are in good hands.
of concern they'll spend the #2 overall pick and make decisions with the belief they can win the SB with Eli.
I just don't see it as realistic, this team has a couple of seasons worth of holes while Eli ages even more.
I think that's where it's going, and it's fitting for how this organization has handled the Eli era. If the organizational philosophy since 2004 can be summarized in a phrase, it's "make a run". It's produced two titles in large part because Eli made miracles happen in both games, but as an organizational model I think it falls short of what we could have been doing.
.....by saying if we don't draft a QB at #2, the Giants believe they can win a SB with Eli Manning.
I don't think that's the case. They believe they can win with Eli, but not necessarily a SB or even go far in the playoffs.
That's because Gettleman and Shurmur are in this for the long run, and I think both guys know it's going to take a few years to get it all back on track.
Could they win 9 games next year and sneak in, sure.
But I really think both guys are looking at 2-3 year building process, that can include winning, and won't include Eli come that third year.
These guys are going to build the team from the inside out, which will be a different perspective than Reese tried.
Big people, control the LOS. Then add your bells and whistles.
Way Too Negative... This Giant Team Can Win Now! Â
It is truly amazing the effect an abysmal coach can have on the morale of not just the team, but the fan base as well. The sentiment in this article is way too negative! If not for some poor end game play, this Giant team should have beaten the super bowl champs twice last year! The terrible season was mostly about bad coaching. Period. There is enough talent on this team with a few additions to make a playoff run. The defense has the talent to be top five in this league - need a linebacker and DB through the draft to augment current talent. On offense, Eli is still capable of winning in this league - Shurmur will smartly build an offense around his talents, not vice versa as had been the Mcadoo experiment. But we need an O-Line and a strong running game - no quarterback in this league including Brady and Rodgers would have been successful with the putrid O-Line and running attack we have suffered through over the past several years! So, IMO, If Browns select Quarterback, Giants should draft Barkley and pick best OL available in second round. If Browns draft Barkley, Giants should trade down to 4-6 and pick Nelson and best RB available with next pick. Free agents should be Norwell, McKinnon or Hyde and best WR available within cap space. If Giants do this, they are a contender again immediately and will have a couple of years to either develop Webb or go in another direction. If Foles and Keenum can be successful in this league, then the notion that we have to be perfect with quarterback succession in this current draft is a silly diversion - especially since each of the possibilities have lots of risks. Take a look at the first round quarterbacks taken in the last forty years - less than a dozen are future HOF players. And the odds that we pick one this year are very small even though we may have the first pick of a quarterback. There have only been six quarterbacks selected with the first overall pick to have ever won a super bowl - and two of them have the last name Manning! (Aikman, Elway, Plunkett and Bradshaw are the others) Let's stop being a fan base fantasizing about realities that don't exist and let's get back to believing that this great franchise can win now... as we did less than six months ago!!!
Sounds like you have lost faith in John Mara? That is understandable.
Well written but really focuses on how poorly constructed we are and how difficult it will be to replenish this roster. One has to hope that DG will be able to find good players who are less heralded but serviceable and we can start to rebuild the roster. Sure was not fun reading that review because I for one was probably looking through rose colored glasses at our roster. Oh well, let us look forward to the draft and free agency. One good free agent signing and some good prospects may make us all feel better about the team.
Sounds like you have lost faith in John Mara? That is understandable.
Not siding one way or the other. Dramatic change comes with its own risks and things can get worse. But as I point out in the article, a bit of a "half-assed" (for lack of a better phrase) approach was telegraphed as soon as they hired Accorsi as the consultant. Reese/Ross seemed like a packaged deal.
If you REALLY wanted to blow this up, you would have not gone back to Gettleman. Maybe you would have made a strong move for Saban (right or wrong) or at least talk to the Patriots about Belichick (maybe even as GM). Not saying they should or shouldn't have done so...merely pointing it out.
I forget which interview it was but Mara pretty much indicated he wasn't willing to enter this offseason with too much chaos (he could be right).
As for Mara, his track record thus far isn't stellar. They obviously really misjudged the situation since 2011, and the decisions made in January 2016 backfired.
My offseason needs articles often make fans think the roster isn't in good shape because I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to the roster and I will point out the flaws. Every team - even the NFL Champs - have flaws. But this roster is a mess right now.
Like I said, imagine the WR corps if Odell suffers a high ankle sprain? Do we have a starting RB? Is there even ONE viable starter on this OL?
Right now, to me, the thing they have to get right is the QB situation for 2019, 2020, and beyond. If they get the QB right, the other areas can be more easily addressed this offseason and next.
My expectations for Giants football have been drastically lowered with how terrible they were last year. I want to watch competitive football and have a chance to make the playoffs at the end of the season. I just want to get back to respectability.
/sarcasm off
My expectations for Giants football have been drastically lowered with how terrible they were last year. I want to watch competitive football and have a chance to make the playoffs at the end of the season. I just want to get back to respectability.
My guess is Shurmur stops the bleeding. I just don't know enough about him. He is bland, bland, bland. But I'm encouraged by all of the positive comments he receives from officials and players around the NFL. That said, we just don't know what kind of coach he will be.
/sarcasm off
Yet at the same time, this organization (including Accorsi) picked Reese over Gettleman. Remember? And Gettleman was fired by the Panthers. He's now 67 years old. Other than Ross, the same people are still in place. So if you think there was an issue with the Giants front-office culture, nothing has really changed all that much.
It could work out great. But it's not significant change and we shouldn't be lulled into thinking that way.
WR*
I see FOUR wide open spots at wide receiver with MAYBE one of the 10 other players making the team and contributing. That's not good in any WR situation. Most teams have a pretty good idea of who their top wide receivers are. The STARTER opposite of Beckham is probably not on this roster.
Let's not forget Reese won two Lombardi's but the Ross hire was his undoing. The roster slowly deteriorated once he came on board. It's a very good sign Gettelamn realized that and his key move was to show him the door without delay...even before the Draft which speaks volumes.
It is major culture change.
Pep22 : 10:49 am
OG, probably RG - Jack Mewhort. Young and talented but two years of knee injuries. Obviously requires a major physical exam to determine the knee health.
OL Cameron Fleming - versatile guy. I could see him as a viable RT if NYG gets Norwell at LG and perhaps another interior OL in RD2. Chris Hubbard may be another guy.
WR - Jordan Matthews - I think he would be a nice compliment to OBJ, SS, EE. Donte Moncrief may be another option as well.
Note: Discount guys are what they are for a reason. They are flawed players. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Moncrief
Mr. Nickels : 10:52 am : link : reply
would be a good signing
I agree with your list
Rjanyg : 10:54 am : link : reply
Especially Fleming. I think Norwell is the main target with Fleming right behind him. I like Moncrief a little more than Matthews as an X receiver.
some other top FA targets besides Norwell are Bradham OLB and McKinnon RB.
Good
AcidTest : 10:56 am : link : reply
list, but I'd pass on Mewhort because of the injuries. The Giants have been injury plagued for years.
quick question
Pep22 : 11:00 am : link : reply
who was the OL draft by CLE from perhaps FSU named Cameron ________?
After OBJ and SS, we have a whole lot of questions at WR.
I'm not optimistic that JPP or OV can play LB. They will be exposed in space.
"In sum, though not to the serious degree of January 2016, this still has the feel of somewhat half-assed approach to it."
Half-assed? That's pretty insulting and I vehemently disagree with that descriptor. As others have said, we have a new GM and new player personnel evaluation processes. I bet that after the draft you'll see more shift in scouting and a new VP of Scouting and Pro Personnel.
We have a new head coach. You pretty much tear into him and call him a failure or bland? He won Assistant Coach of the Year. C'mon now. Not only that, he basically revamped the whole coaching staff while keeping a few position coaches on board. You highlight keeping some coaches but want to ignore the impact of the rest?
Get out of here with that noise.
Then your position descriptions I can pretty much agree with except WR. We need a better #2 for sure, but that's not crazy to expect that we can find someone there. Does every NFL team have two amazingly good WRs? Our secondary is in pretty good shape I think, our DL is, and we'll have to see the mess of our LB situation shakes out. Like you send depends on JPP and OV.
I think you're getting cranky and cynical in your old age. The giants need to start winning again because this can't be good for your health.
Love ya Eric.
"In sum, though not to the serious degree of January 2016, this still has the feel of somewhat half-assed approach to it."
Half-assed? That's pretty insulting and I vehemently disagree with that descriptor. As others have said, we have a new GM and new player personnel evaluation processes. I bet that after the draft you'll see more shift in scouting and a new VP of Scouting and Pro Personnel.
We have a new head coach. You pretty much tear into him and call him a failure or bland? He won Assistant Coach of the Year. C'mon now. Not only that, he basically revamped the whole coaching staff while keeping a few position coaches on board. You highlight keeping some coaches but want to ignore the impact of the rest?
Get out of here with that noise.
Then your position descriptions I can pretty much agree with except WR. We need a better #2 for sure, but that's not crazy to expect that we can find someone there. Does every NFL team have two amazingly good WRs? Our secondary is in pretty good shape I think, our DL is, and we'll have to see the mess of our LB situation shakes out. Like you send depends on JPP and OV.
I think you're getting cranky and cynical in your old age. The giants need to start winning again because this can't be good for your health.
Love ya Eric.
Dodge, as soon as Accorsi was hired, most of us knew Gettleman was going to be back. (Hell, many of us knew it before Accorsi was hired). Mara went with what he knew. Is that wrong? Opinions will vary. But that's what he did. In a different fashion, he did the same thing in January 2016 when he fired Coughlin but no one else. They basically traded McAdoo for Coughlin.
I did qualify in my article that we may see some personnel office changes after the draft. (My "for now" comment).
Nowhere did I call Shurmur a failure. In fact, I said he had the highest floor. But watching paint dry is more exciting than listening to this guy. That doesn't mean he will be a bad coach. Belichick's press conferences are boring too. I'm simply pointing out the obvious.
If Apple is not long for this team or he doesn't play better, and if Ross departs, the Giants are in rough shape at CB. They basically have Jenkins and two big holes.
If they stick with the 4-3, and you believe in JPP and Vernon, they are in good shape. But if they go with the 3-4, then they have glaring needs at DE and a second NT.
The one thing I do like, so far, is that rumors and leaks are completely different from previous draft/FA cycles. We'll see if it continues.
As far as how Shurmer sounds? Who cares what he sounds like to the press. We'll see if he can get his players to play. I was listening to Zimmer talk on Sirius radio last week and he sounded just as boring as Shurmer. I don't think you should judge him just based on that.
Anyway, regardless of your caveats that you put in there, I think you're being overly critical and negative in your review. But, based on the product we've gotten over the last 6 years, it's not undeserved.
If Apple is not long for this team or he doesn't play better, and if Ross departs, the Giants are in rough shape at CB. They basically have Jenkins and two big holes.
If they stick with the 4-3, and you believe in JPP and Vernon, they are in good shape. But if they go with the 3-4, then they have glaring needs at DE and a second NT.
I'll quote this post as to not confused the two replies.
If Ross departs, yes we'll have bigger holes. I can't see a future for Apple here, but you never know. Still, if Ross leaves I think we'll have a need for CB but not a massive hole.
As for the DL/LB in a 3-4, I think we'll see JPP play an end and OV play LB somewhere. We'll need to find 1-2 athletic LBs in FA to get in there and play a few other positions.
JPP-Snacks-Tomlinson
XX-Kennard-XX-OV
I disagree with you about Gettleman, I firmly believe his loss from pro personnel was the biggest blow to this front office and I am extremely happy he's back. The dude finds talented players, end of story.
Long story short, since we don't know what Bettcher plans, predicting the front seven right now is just guessing.
I disagree with you about Gettleman, I firmly believe his loss from pro personnel was the biggest blow to this front office and I am extremely happy he's back. The dude finds talented players, end of story.
Joey, I think people are coming away from this article with the belief that I am CRITICAL of Gettleman and Shurmur. That's not my intent.
My intent was to point out that Mara decided to play it safe. They are safe, conservative choices. That can be a good thing. Or a bad thing. We'll see.
My intent was simply to counter that this is some sort of sweeping sea change. The exclamation point to me was the decision to basically name Eli the 2018 starter.
I'm praying for a quick rebound. But it wouldn't shock me if Eli's play this year continues to be an issue.
The NFL is a year by year league. Giants can easily be in the playoffs next year. As long as you have some talent, all it takes is a few balls to bounce your way, good coaching, and you're back in the swing.
The general consensus on BBI was that Victor Cruz was done and that Brandon Marshall was going to be an upgrade. Well, based on the fact that Cruz barely got into another camp and then was cut, the former was accurate. But Marshall was clearly not an upgrade either. He was terrible. And not having even a viable player opposite Beckham hurt. Aside from the two Eagles games, Shepard seemed to have problems making plays down the field out of the slot. I hope he continues to improve. But we need another WR. (But we have so many holes everywhere else, fans are understandably not even concentrating on that fact).
Now Jordan is saying the Giants are trying to re-sign Darkwa. Why? We had better pray Gallman is a legit player.
And I don't know if I've EVER seen the Giants' offensive line more unsettled. We don't know who any of the starters are going to be at this point. We may not even have any of the starters on the roster.
At LB, if we stick with the 4-3, we're desperate for outside linebackers. If we go 3-4, we're going to have to take a leap of faith than either JPP or Vernon can play LB.
So many holes. They will have to sign a bunch of bargain basement guys.
Given the state of the roster, if Gettleman really liked one of the QBs, I would think he would have to take him. But I'm not sure he is going to do that.
The NFL is a year by year league. Giants can easily be in the playoffs next year. As long as you have some talent, all it takes is a few balls to bounce your way, good coaching, and you're back in the swing.
The Jaguars actually had a pretty decent roster OTHER than quarterback.
Now, we have holes everywhere....
I say we are somewhere in the middle.....
fix the OL...the rest will be fine.
The defense is right now a jumble.....but with Collins, Snacks, OV, Jenkins....we have a strong core to build around.
It's natural to be concern.
My feeling is McAdoo was the major reason for the downfall last year.....sure we have holes.....everyone does right now.
Let's see what happens during FA and the draft....
LOL
Our roster isn't devoid of talent. In fact, we have a lot of it.
Our roster isn't devoid of talent. In fact, we have a lot of it.
Eli is a question mark. Even if we completely write off the last two years, you are projecting an older QB a couple years out. He's probably no worse than what half the league is trotting out there, but this idea that he just snaps back to prime Eli at 37 yrs old because we fired Reese and McAdoo is overly optimistic.
Also, I think this article is a fair breakdown of the talent level on this roster. An overlooked factor by fans are the amount of capable role players that are seeing their deals expire like Cockrell, Kennard, Darkwa, Brent Jones and Fluker. These open up additional holes beyond the obvious ones which get overlooked. Corner is probably worse off than even Eric let on, it's a huge problem that any other year would be this board's focus.
We have some good top end talent but we're almost baren behind those pieces. There's a lot of work to do, too much for one offseason.
Quote:
Crazy for calling this team incredibly devoid of talent. Where are the legions of dopes who think the 11-5 season is what we are instead of all the losing we have done for 4 of the past 5 years? This team absolutely sucks right now. We lack quality at RB, OL, LB, S, CB and have zero depth except for maybe TE. What an abysmal job Reese has done. We have Odell, whoppee.
I disagree with you about Gettleman, I firmly believe his loss from pro personnel was the biggest blow to this front office and I am extremely happy he's back. The dude finds talented players, end of story.
Joey, I think people are coming away from this article with the belief that I am CRITICAL of Gettleman and Shurmur. That's not my intent.
My intent was to point out that Mara decided to play it safe. They are safe, conservative choices. That can be a good thing. Or a bad thing. We'll see.
My intent was simply to counter that this is some sort of sweeping sea change. The exclamation point to me was the decision to basically name Eli the 2018 starter.
I'm praying for a quick rebound. But it wouldn't shock me if Eli's play this year continues to be an issue.
Eric, great write up as usual. And you are not wrong, Shurmur and Gettleman are safe, conservative choice, and that can be either good or bad. I tend to think that despite the safe and conservative nature of the hires, that the hires are for the better, and here is why.
Both men are 180 degrees out from the men they replaced. McAdoo was stubborn, inflexible, and inconsistent with his players. By all accounts Shrumur is adaptable, creative, and consistent (adult), even if he is bland. (I tend to like bland, especially if it wins.)
Reese had gone all in on building the Giants from the outside in. Money and premium draft picks were spent on WRs, CBs, and impact pass rushers. While the expenditure on resources was not bad in a vacuum, he did so at the expense of the OL, LBs, and RBs. Gettleman comes from a completely different point of view. Win in the trenches first.
I continue to believe the Mara's goal this offseason was to return the Giants to their foundation. The foundation that is exemplified best by the Parcells, Coughlin, and Gettleman view of football. Control the line of scrimmage and run the ball, stop the run, and get after the QB. Do those three things and win. The Giants have not consistently done all three of those things since 2008. Time for that to change.
Some areas of the team will have to wait. You correctly identify the lackluster nature of the WR corps after OBJ. But adding more playmakers out wide may have to wait until after the lines and LBs are addressed. I am also of the philosophy (and I think you will see it in this draft) that you can get quality role players at WR in mid rounds. I highlight the Rams Cooper Kupp as a prominent example. If you can find a guy with good hands who runs good routes (Penn State's DaeSean Hamilton comes to mind) but may not have elite speed, he can be very successful in an offense that already feature OBJ and Evan Engram. The Giants have the corner stones of their receiving corps, they need to fill in the interchangeable parts. Given Shurmur's love of the pass catching running back, I would be surprised to see the Giants consider taking Nyheim Hines, who started his college career as a WR and converted to RB. He has elite speed, good hands, and runs routes like a WR. I think he makes a ton of sense for this team.
Sure the JR and McAdoo replacements seem vanilla and predictable, but I strongly believe that at their core, they are both different people when it comes to how they look at football. In my view, exactly what the Giants needed.
I disagree with you about Gettleman, I firmly believe his loss from pro personnel was the biggest blow to this front office and I am extremely happy he's back. The dude finds talented players, end of story.
you're spot on. While I did not foresee a 3-13 debacle, I never bought into th SB hype, or even the contender hype last year. The holes were obvious.
Current starter: Personally, I don't think Eli has much left.
Depth: I think Webb has sufficient talent and personality to handle the backup role.
Outlook: Happy to have Eli start one more year and groom the next guy. However, if that next guy is Rosen, he's the one guy in this draft that is probably ready immediately.
RB:
Current starter: Probably not on the roster.
Depth: Perkins and Gallman are fine depth guys.
Outlook: I'd like to see them pursue Carlos Hyde and save RDs 2-4 on the OL and LB.
WR:
Current starter: OBJ is as good as it gets. SS is outstanding in the slot. Now X WR on the roster once BM is cut.
Depth: None to speak of although EE cushions that.
Outlook: Moncreif or Matthews shouldn't break the bank and would be valuable additions (one of the two).
TE:
Current starter: EE should be a pro bowler.
Depth: Elison and Adams are fine.
Outlook: Perhaps the only position that doesn't need to be addressed.
OL:
Current starter: Literally nothing to brag about here although I am fine with Jones at C.
Depth: Greco and Jerry are decent.
Outlook: Do we have enough $ for Norwell and Fleming? Then a RD2 interior lineman i.e. Hernandez? Wyatt Teller, Brian Allen and David Bright are guys I like late in the draft.
DL:
Current starter: Current group esp the DEs aren't ideal for 3-4, but plenty of talent here.
Depth: Acceptable.
Outlook: With numerous holes elsewhere, I think its tough to allocate resources here.
LB:
Current starter: Almost literally nothing in the cupboard.
Depth: See prior line.
Outlook: Kevin Minter would be a cheap alternative. Kennard would be a solid guy to re-sign. Josey Jewell should last to the 4th. Nothing not to love about Vander Esch but are we not forced to go OL in RD2 after a RD1 QB choice? Jack Cichy would be a good value late in the draft.
S:
Current starter: Collins, DRC.
Depth: Adams is a solid backup type. Thompson looks like he's a step slow and a poor tackler. Behre is probably one more inevitable concussion away from retirement.
Outlook: Terrell Edmunds and Quin Blanding are two mid rounders I like.
CB:
Current starter: Despite last year, Jenkins is fine. Is Apple a fixable reclamation project (unlikely).
Depth: I would like to have Cockrell back.
Outlook: Will have to invest in this position as well.
UMMMM, that is a bit of hyperbole and homerism there. Engram needs to prove it year 2. Sheppard needs to be more than just a collector of numbers in blowouts and lost seasons.
The Giants need a viable 3rd WR and most certainly can use a bigger target (what Marshall was supposed to be).
Reese and Ross slowly but pretty steadily turned the Championship team that they inherited in 2007 into the second worst team in the entire league, and McAdoo was the final straw that broke the camel's back.
And Mara let them do it. Ownership has to shoulder the real blame for this mess because they failed to act sooner. And when they finally did act two years ago, they made not one but two really bad decisions - keeping Reese AND hiring McAdoo. In doing so, they lost a major asset in Coughlin and failed to hire Marone, the guy that should have been the next Head Coach.
That said, it's time to wipe the slate clean and start over with the best that they could find now, and I think they have done that with Gettleman and Shurmur. As Eric said, thank God that they didn't pick McDaniels.
Considering the awful state of this mess, it is going to take years to truly rebuild this disaster because it has to be done in steps, some of which take a year or more to begin to produce real change.
The rebuilding has started with the firing of Reese, McAdoo, Ross, Quinn, and so on.
The scouting staff won't be overhauled until after the draft, but DG is already changing how they do business, a basic step that had to be taken because for whatever reason, the GIANTS drafting was simply not getting the job done. The changes here, if successful, will take a couple of years to begin producing positive results.
And the purge of players has started, if slowly, and will accelerate as we move through veteran free agency, the draft, and summer camp. But there are way too many problems to address in one off-season. They can't solve all the problems overnight, but look for 40-plus new players on the combined roster and Practice Squad by the kickoff of the 2019 (not a mis-print) season. Most of the players on the current roster will be gone by then.
And yes, they could get lucky and sneak into the playoffs this season, but they won't go far. They are not going to seriously challenge for another Lombardi Trophy for at least several more seasons. It probably won't happen until after Eli's successor has been found and has at least two or three seasons under his belt. Personally, I think even finding that guy is still at least a couple of seasons away.
The GIANTS will contend for the Lombardi Trophy again someday, but don't hold your breath until then. The return to prominence is going to take time.
Not as bad as 3-13 last year as had no offensive threats playing most of the season. Defense clearly under-achieved.
Ehhh..lets go with we are an average non-playoff type team.
Quote:
with possible exception of the Steelers, that trio is the best in the NFL
UMMMM, that is a bit of hyperbole and homerism there. Engram needs to prove it year 2. Sheppard needs to be more than just a collector of numbers in blowouts and lost seasons.
The Giants need a viable 3rd WR and most certainly can use a bigger target (what Marshall was supposed to be).
Hence the Moncrief/Matthews recommendation.
But even though the situation is gloomy, (and the old Parcell adage apples - "you are what your record says you are"); the cupboard's not bare ..
In 2016, the team fielded six ALL PROs - Beckham, Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, Collins, DRC. THOSE are the players who gave us 11-5. it wasn't an illusion.
It's ALL about the massive holes on offense, (especially the O-line), now ...
The ship sank when the injury bug hit the entire team in 2016. High draft picks Pugh and Richburg (both never played to that level), then both got hurt and the O-line went from barely ordinary to awful.
The other high pick, Flowers, finally seemed to find himself, hopefully, he'll continue to improve.
And, Eric you say QB; My response - "Come on, man", Rome is burning and you want us to buy a shiny fiddle ??!!
I think this team can make the playoffs next season, I truly believe that. Hopefully we are smart in FA and the draft goes our way. This team is not as far off as most think. McAdont had no idea had to run a pro style offense. No running schemes.....nothing!! We have more than enough money in the cap to make a stride in FA. Sorry if I seem like a glass half full kinda guy, but I'm also not a homer. Just my 2 cents!
Shurmur was probably their best fit for helping a new QB during a transition. He may be able to help Eli out too.
I'm pleased with new staff.
If Mara had a brain he would have fired Reese and hired Coughlin to take over the GM position. I would bet anything that had it not been for Coughlin that Reese would have ruined this franchise years ago. Then Mara sticks by Reese, that really is a worry. he didn't even know who was the gut he needed to keep, nothing is more worrisome.
So just some random comments.
I have seen JPP's weight reported as everything from 255 to 290. Does anyone know? If he is over 280 lbs, he probably ought to be a DE. If he is under 280, maybe he can be a rush LB. I see the flexibility of Vernon and JPP both standing up in a 3-4 and one of them dropping down to DE in a 4-3 front. The QB's head would be on a swivel.
If the Giants and Bromley come to an agreement, I can see Bromley as a 3-4 DE.
I see some candidates for the Inside LB next to Goodson. Herzlich could be one if he is re-signed. He wasn't a good MLB or outside LB in a 4-3, but he might fit in a 3-4
Three possible positions for Flowers, other than LT. He is too talented physically not to be able to start somewhere. By the time we get to the draft, there should be some semblance of at least an adequate o-line even if we don't count Flowers. I can't imagine DG going into the draft and trying to find a Day 1 starting o-lineman.
Signing Darkwa or a veteran RB is almost guaranteed.
The WR situation is really bad. I forgot about how bad it is. Picking a WR in the draft is a crapshoot. Can the Giants find a cap casualty?
DG has a tremendous hill to climb and get this team back to become a legit contender. Using the draft picks to fill holes is the quick way to get us excited, but his use of FA signings will be the main factor that will show us what sort of team he'll put together.
We will see what the results will be, but so far I am optimistic in what Gettleman and pat shurmur will do for this franchise.
If Gettleman had no history with the giants he would have been a great hire, and it doesn't matter what his connection to Accorsi was. I don't know what Reese did or didn't do day to day, but I love that Gettleman is a film junkie. Gettleman knows what he is looking for in players, he has a philosophical approach and a plan to build a team. I never felt that Reese had that. Reese drafted players that just never fit and were captains or athletes more than football players.
Pat shurmur impressed me with the hiring of bettcher. It would gave been easy for shurmur to pay a favor back to spagnuolo and keep him as defensive coordinator, but he didn't. Pat shurmur went out of the box and hired someone he has no connection to. He hired someone who gave him fits.
Ben mcadoo was as clueless as they come. He showed zero creativity, adaptability or communication. Pat shurmur brings the opposite. Pat shurmur has run various offensive schemes and adapted to a wide range of different player skills. I am really excited to see what shurmur will do with manning, Beckham and Engram.
As far as manning goes. If you think Gettleman just based his opinion of Eli off of one game, then I have a bridge to sell you. I can guarantee you that by this point, Gettleman watched just about every single throw Eli made this year.
I don't believe for one second that Gettleman and shurmur are blowing smoke up our butts about Eli. They truly believe that Eli is not the problem. Fix the offensive line, get some semblance of a run game going and watch what eli can do.
We will see a completely revamped roster with a lot of changes, but like I said the results will speak for themselves
Long story short, since we don't know what Bettcher plans, predicting the front seven right now is just guessing.
Eric, it has been said many times by Shurmur and Gettlemen that Betcher is going to run a 3-4 1 gap Hybrid defense. JPP will not be lining up solely as a 5 Tech. He will shade as well. His best season was 2011 when he lined up inside in the NASCAR. He has lost some edge speed and his lack of hand usage has limited his effectiveness outside. He will be much better playing LDE in the 3-4.
The general consensus on BBI was that Victor Cruz was done and that Brandon Marshall was going to be an upgrade. Well, based on the fact that Cruz barely got into another camp and then was cut, the former was accurate. But Marshall was clearly not an upgrade either. He was terrible. And not having even a viable player opposite Beckham hurt. Aside from the two Eagles games, Shepard seemed to have problems making plays down the field out of the slot. I hope he continues to improve. But we need another WR. (But we have so many holes everywhere else, fans are understandably not even concentrating on that fact).
Now Jordan is saying the Giants are trying to re-sign Darkwa. Why? We had better pray Gallman is a legit player.
And I don't know if I've EVER seen the Giants' offensive line more unsettled. We don't know who any of the starters are going to be at this point. We may not even have any of the starters on the roster.
At LB, if we stick with the 4-3, we're desperate for outside linebackers. If we go 3-4, we're going to have to take a leap of faith than either JPP or Vernon can play LB.
So many holes. They will have to sign a bunch of bargain basement guys.
Given the state of the roster, if Gettleman really liked one of the QBs, I would think he would have to take him. But I'm not sure he is going to do that.
Agree with most of it but not the WR piece. They’ll be able to find decent 3-4-5 guys on the cheap in FA or after cuts.
The focus needs to be OL and front 7 on defense. If they get that straightened out they’ll play winning football.
The OL has one guy who may belong on an NFL roster if he can move from LT to somewhere else hopefully. The rest could all be replaced by drafted or UDFA as easy as pie don’t get the hype on guys who did nothing for a team desperate to find anybody. The WR’s with OBJ played about the same without OBJ so I’m not buying the return of OBJ just elevates all of them to star status. We have one TE on the roster an overpaid limited tools TE and a young guy who took a major step backwards. At HB we have two young guys with very close to the same skill set but neither a complete back to feel comfortable going forward with. Special teams should have easily been a team strength but they also spent the year in the outhouse.
So as Eric said we have maybe 12-15 guys who should be on this roster right now if DG watched this teams films. The point is that this entire team took twelve steps backwards and now today we still don’t know what defense and offense we are going to see going forward. That’s what I call a major rebuilding or head office failure to realize you can’t turn shit into sugar overnight.
That all said, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the type of defense they run. That would make sense.
LOL...well done.
The team has had no depth and has been over allocating resources at whatever the biggest problem was.
In my opinion, OL and LB and special teams were huge needs last year and were not addressed.
The one position NYG improved was TE. Every other position down graded unless you consider OL remaining same level of suck for 2 years.
The team appears 3 years away and Eli will likely be done at that point if he isn't done now.
I think Gettleman will be in the best spot possible if the browns want to trade up from 4 to 2. That can fetch a small haul and would definitely add an additional 2 plus somethinf more. We need to accumulate talent. We need a quantity of quality to compliment obj, Engram, Collins , snacks and our other top players.
I've said it several times:
Reese ignored the OL in premium rounds except for Beatty the first half of his tenure, and failed the 2nd half in selections made and opportunities ignored; the failure of selection until rd. 6 in '17, should have resulted in IMMEDIATE firing. LB failure dittos OL.
However, complacent ownership, especially after the EF , even EA selections, bears a great share of responsibility; especially when it itself declared in '13/'14 a desire to return to Giants football, but player selection was to the contrary.
The roster is a mess; 2 if not 3 of 4 high contract D players have underperformed and hold the cap hostage far more than Manning.
I have faith in DGs ability to get PLAYERS, hopefully PS and staff can make them succeed.
Though not a great draft it is a good one to get PLAYERS,especially if someone wants the #2 within the top 7, and/ or we can move at least 1 of the under performers for a top half rd 2 pick.
The wheels have been falling off this bus since game 9 of 2012; its not gonna run smooth overnight.
FA starts in a week, so the rebuild starts there, with 1/4 the cap Cleveland has... so it won't be easy, nor will it be impossible either.
Pffft, try the late 60s and 70s group to see really bad teams.
Injuries and McAdoo scuttled 2017. There were/are better players on this roster than in the above mentioned 15 yr period.
I watch other teams and with few exceptions don't see outstandingly talented teams. Yes the linebackers are awful and so is the oline. Even so Gallamn and Darkwa averaged 4.3 yards per carry... Gallman can play. They are thin at WR, yes but really strong at TE if they allow both Engram and Ellison on the field at the same time (Belichick 2 TE system). You can find WRs in the draft.
Fix the oline with smart FA signings, draft Nelson, Hernandez, Smith or Wynn. Re-sign Jones but look for an upgrade. Get Solder or Fleming. Forget Norwell - too much money. You can get 3 decent players for the money that Norwell will command.
I refuse to be pessimistic until after the draft and FA. Then we will see.
Do you remember in 2003, during a Giants bye week, when John Mara, Tom Coughlin, and Jim Fassel attended a BC football game together? I'm convinced the only reason Fassel was invited was because they didn't like how it would look if it was just Mara and Coughlin. At least that was my thought at the time, even though the Giants were 2-1 and there was little hint of the debacle to follow.
You are right.
But I fear that the new brass at Jints Central may really be of this mindset - Eli has 3+ more years; and they trust Shurmur, and this may be the main reason he was hired, to craft and mold Webb as the heir apparent...
I think all of that is very dangerous.
But I fear that the new brass at Jints Central may really be of this mindset - Eli has 3+ more years;
I'm happy with Gettleman and Shurmur. Neither was my choice when the process started, but the more I got to know about them, the more impressed I became. The proof will be in the pudding, but for the time being I feel like the Giants are in good hands.
I just don't see it as realistic, this team has a couple of seasons worth of holes while Eli ages even more.
I just don't see it as realistic, this team has a couple of seasons worth of holes while Eli ages even more.
I think that's where it's going, and it's fitting for how this organization has handled the Eli era. If the organizational philosophy since 2004 can be summarized in a phrase, it's "make a run". It's produced two titles in large part because Eli made miracles happen in both games, but as an organizational model I think it falls short of what we could have been doing.
I just don't see it as realistic, this team has a couple of seasons worth of holes while Eli ages even more.
Same here. I really hope they don't draft this way.
I don't think that's the case. They believe they can win with Eli, but not necessarily a SB or even go far in the playoffs.
That's because Gettleman and Shurmur are in this for the long run, and I think both guys know it's going to take a few years to get it all back on track.
Could they win 9 games next year and sneak in, sure.
But I really think both guys are looking at 2-3 year building process, that can include winning, and won't include Eli come that third year.
These guys are going to build the team from the inside out, which will be a different perspective than Reese tried.
Big people, control the LOS. Then add your bells and whistles.