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Dilfer: Giants have their QB of future in Webb

ryanmkeane : 3/6/2018 1:03 pm
Dilfer feels UCLA quarterback Josh Rosen would be the most optimal fit for the Giants if general manager Dave Gettleman wanted to go that route in Round 1, but doesn’t necessary agree that New York must select a quarterback.

Rather, Dilfer says, the Giants already their Eli Manning heir on the roster in the form of 2017 third-round pick Davis Webb.

“I think they have their future quarterback,” Dilfer told NJ Advance Media. “Given enough time and given that they have a two-time Super Bowl champion to bridge a couple years to integrate that guy in.

“Giving Davis a year or two more to develop and learn the ropes and kind of establish himself in the locker room and play well in preseason, it helps your team. Now you don’t have to go overpay at the position, or draft and roll the dice.”

Dilfer also believes the Giants are in good shape with Manning, who has already been named the team’s starter in 2018 and potentially beyond.

“I really like the combination of Eli and Davis Webb,” Dilfer said. “I might be on an island there, but I think Eli still has a lot of good stuff in the tank. Especially considering so much of this game now is from the neck up. Eli has plenty of talent, plenty of juice. He just needs more answers to the test. He needs to be able to win the game intellectually as much as physically. I think this system will allow him to do that.”

I agree with Dilfer at this point in time, and I'm in the "Barkley, or trade back if he's gone" camp.
Dilfer on Webb - ( New Window )
New regime in place  
EddieNYG : 3/6/2018 1:06 pm : link
I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.

They will pass on a QB if they don't like any of the QBs.

I don't see how they can't like any of the top 3 guys.
RE: New regime in place  
ryanmkeane : 3/6/2018 1:07 pm : link
In comment 13852189 EddieNYG said:
Quote:
I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.

People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?

If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?
It's definitely a gamble to place the future of the organization  
nyjuggernaut2 : 3/6/2018 1:09 pm : link
in Webb's hands. But at the same time, it's a gamble taking a QB at #2 and hoping he becomes the franchise QB one day. Just have to trust the front office on this one whichever way they decide to go.
RE: RE: New regime in place  
EddieNYG : 3/6/2018 1:13 pm : link
In comment 13852191 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 13852189 EddieNYG said:


Quote:


I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.



People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?

If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?

They could really like Webb.

But it's a tough sell to me to pass on Darnold, Allen or Rosen because of Davis Webb.

I think some fans just want Barkley so badly that they're rationalizing not taking a QB anyway they can.

It would be foolish to pass on a QB picking at 2 with a 37 year old QB other than you don't like any of them.

If they trade out of 2, and the QB picked at 2 becomes an All-Pro, I guarantee you the people complaining the loudest would be the same ones who are hoping for a trade down now.
Eddie  
ryanmkeane : 3/6/2018 1:14 pm : link
if we didn't have Webb, or Webb was an undrafted free agent, there's no way that anyone here would be clamoring for Barkley. Webb was a 3rd round pick with a high grade from a lot of teams, or so it seems. He checks all the boxes you want as far as leadership, IQ, love for the game, work ethic. He has a ridiculous arm to boot, and is now going to be coached by Shurmur and Shula. Shula made David Garrard look like a pro bowler.
RE: RE: New regime in place  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2018 1:15 pm : link
In comment 13852191 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 13852189 EddieNYG said:


Quote:


I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.



People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?

If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?

I think, if they believe that Webb is the guy, we should hope he emerges sooner than two years from now. Otherwise, he'll only have one year left on his rookie deal which is problematic on two fronts: for one thing, it means they'll have essentially thrown away the benefit of having a young QB and being able to build a roster around his lower salary; secondly, they'll have to make a long-term decision on Webb with only one year of live game experience and without a safety net.

It would be great if Webb was the next franchise QB and he's already drafted and the succession plan is already in place. But it's really just wishful thinking at this point, whether that comes from talking heads like Dilfer or other Giants fans directly. Neither Gettleman nor Shurmur have any reason but to sing his praises at this point, but just remember that the entire league (including the Giants) passed on Webb twice, and nothing since then has provided a reason for anyone to feel more confident about Webb than they should about any other 3rd round pick (and I'm speaking about 3rd round picks in general, not even referencing Reese's abysmal draft record with that round).

It's not impossible that Webb becomes the Giants' next QB. But it's wildly optimistic to depend on it.
Should have played him  
Rflairr : 3/6/2018 1:17 pm : link
And the new regime would have something to go on
I know it hasn't been long and it's probably not  
Beezer : 3/6/2018 1:19 pm : link
one of the first 7 things the new head coach has looked at, but has there been any noise at all, even a peep, about the coach and Webb getting together at all? Webb working out together at the facility? Eli working with his big #2 at Rutgers made me wonder where Webb is ... and if he's around the facility at all.
RE: Should have played him  
BamaBlue : 3/6/2018 1:21 pm : link
In comment 13852219 Rflairr said:
Quote:
And the new regime would have something to go on


+1 Unfortunately, we are where we are.
RE: Eddie  
EddieNYG : 3/6/2018 1:22 pm : link
In comment 13852213 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
if we didn't have Webb, or Webb was an undrafted free agent, there's no way that anyone here would be clamoring for Barkley. Webb was a 3rd round pick with a high grade from a lot of teams, or so it seems. He checks all the boxes you want as far as leadership, IQ, love for the game, work ethic. He has a ridiculous arm to boot, and is now going to be coached by Shurmur and Shula. Shula made David Garrard look like a pro bowler.


Again, rationalize it all day long. At the end of the day, this is a new regime who didn't pick Webb. They may like him. They may not. But Webb was considered a PROJECT. Yes, we have Eli for 2 more years so their is time.

But I can't get past the fact that the Giants are picking at #2 and their are 3 QBs who can be had without giving up the farm. Passing up on that because of Webb is foolish, IMO.
Unfortunately...  
bw in dc : 3/6/2018 1:25 pm : link
I think Dilfer's thinking has spread like a virus at Jints Central - led by Mara. And there is no immunization.
Dilfer's thought process: "If I could win a SB anyone can"  
Victor in CT : 3/6/2018 1:27 pm : link
He's a project. Sometime's project turn out ok. Mostly they don't. Romo is the exception not the rule.
If we don't take a QB @ #2  
GiantsLaw : 3/6/2018 1:29 pm : link
we should to trade down and secure another 2019 1st rd pick. This would give us ammunition to move up next year if we have to.
I am on record as wanting to bring in Wilks  
Chris684 : 3/6/2018 1:31 pm : link
but I am confident in Shurmur and now that he is here. Don't we want to give him the opportunity to earn his money?

Half of BBI pointed to his work with Case Keenum as the reason why we should bring him here. Now that we have a blank canvas in the form of an unknown but talented 3rd round pick from last year, everyone writes him off? No one wants to see what Webb and Shurmur can do?
RE: Unfortunately...  
UConn4523 : 3/6/2018 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13852241 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I think Dilfer's thinking has spread like a virus at Jints Central - led by Mara. And there is no immunization.


Yes, the Giants do whatever Trent Dilfer says...
If they pass  
UESBLUE : 3/6/2018 1:34 pm : link
on one of the shiny new toys in favor of a guy who couldnt see the field ahead of Geno Smith they better be right. Or this new regime will be gone in a cpl yrs...
Webb  
Tony in Tampa : 3/6/2018 1:38 pm : link
Since no one has seen him play in an NFL game, I just don't understand why so many seem to feel that Webb will be as good as the QBs in this draft as opposed to being Ryan Nassib.

With all the detailed analysis of every single draftable college football player: What are the chances that Webb turns out to be this hidden gem from 2017 draft vs just another guy?
Opinions are like assholes  
superspynyg : 3/6/2018 1:45 pm : link
Everyone has one and only some stink. I would be happy if Webb was the future. That opens up a whole lot of possibilities for the Giants.
RE: If they pass  
Alan in Toledo : 3/6/2018 1:46 pm : link
In comment 13852268 UESBLUE said:
Quote:
on one of the shiny new toys in favor of a guy who couldnt see the field ahead of Geno Smith they better be right. Or this new regime will be gone in a cpl yrs...


Geno Smith's summons was McAdoo's call -- and hasn't McAdoo been completely discredited?
RE: Should have played him  
superspynyg : 3/6/2018 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13852219 Rflairr said:
Quote:
And the new regime would have something to go on


Stupidity and lack of common sense

That’s why a)Reese and McAdoo had to go and b) Spags was not really considered for HC.
RE: Webb  
Knee of Theismann : 3/6/2018 1:57 pm : link
In comment 13852272 Tony in Tampa said:
Quote:
Since no one has seen him play in an NFL game, I just don't understand why so many seem to feel that Webb will be as good as the QBs in this draft as opposed to being Ryan Nassib.

With all the detailed analysis of every single draftable college football player: What are the chances that Webb turns out to be this hidden gem from 2017 draft vs just another guy?


Webb was definitely higher-rated than Nassib. He could have gone in the 2nd round but fell to the Giants in the 3rd. Nassib was a 4th rounder and I think went right where he was graded. I'm pretty sure the Giants knew he was a backup when they took him, whereas Webb was selected to be groomed behind Eli. I think it was also known that Webb would need a couple years to sit which is why he wasn't higher rated, so it just happened to be an ideal fit for the Giants with Eli still being only 36 and apparently playing at a high level in 2016. I don't think Webb will ever be an all-pro, but with the right development and the right system and the right players around him I think he could win football games.
RE: They will pass on a QB if they don't like any of the QBs.  
Trainmaster : 3/6/2018 2:04 pm : link
+1

I’d like them to go Barkley, but if those who get paid to run the Giants feel one of these 2018 QBs is worth the 2nd overall, they should go for it. I just hope it’s not Rosen.

The comarison is not Webb vs. the 2018 QBs  
Pork Chop : 3/6/2018 2:07 pm : link
It's Webb + Barkley vs the 2018 QBs. I don't know anything about anything, but I am leaning toward not wanting a QB with #2.
RE: RE: If they pass  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2018 2:07 pm : link
In comment 13852283 Alan in Toledo said:
Quote:
In comment 13852268 UESBLUE said:


Quote:


on one of the shiny new toys in favor of a guy who couldnt see the field ahead of Geno Smith they better be right. Or this new regime will be gone in a cpl yrs...



Geno Smith's summons was McAdoo's call -- and hasn't McAdoo been completely discredited?

Fair point. Here's the counterpoint: Davis Webb was a Jerry Reese 3rd round pick -- and hasn't Reese been completely discredited?
Chubb in the second  
Sec 103 : 3/6/2018 2:10 pm : link
. Never have to many DEs
RE: The comarison is not Webb vs. the 2018 QBs  
GFAN52 : 3/6/2018 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13852315 Pork Chop said:
Quote:
It's Webb + Barkley vs the 2018 QBs. I don't know anything about anything, but I am leaning toward not wanting a QB with #2.


That's assuming Barkley doesn't go to the Browns with the first pick.
If there is a QB the Giants like they should take him  
Rudy5757 : 3/6/2018 2:22 pm : link
Webb is an unknown no matter how much the organization liked him. If you think any of them is worthy of a top pick pull the trigger. If Webb does develop you have a trade chip. If Webb develops and the other QB doesnt you still have a QB. This team is going to need a QB very soon and we will hopefully not be in a top 5 position to get one.

The only reason to pass on a QB this year is if they feel none of them are any good. The GM does not have the advantage of seeing Webb 1st hand to make the call. There may be others in the org who say he is the real deal but if my job was on the line I would want to make a more educated decision. Webb was a 3rd round pick so some teams with QB needs passed on him 3 times for some reason. If I am the GM I evaluate the draft as if I don't have a QB of the future and draft by that strategy.
If they like Webb it sure would be nice to  
KWALL2 : 3/6/2018 2:22 pm : link
draft Barkley or Chubb and give it one more shot at a run with Eli.
I think  
joeinpa : 3/6/2018 2:29 pm : link
those opposed to a quarterback at #2 are of the "immediate gratification crowd"

It would be great if Webb were the guy. But to bank on that when you are in a position that has only come to the Giants twice in 37 years, and not get a quarterback from a class that until recently was considered a very good crop, seems a colossal mistake.

If Webb turns out to be the guy, and Darnold or Rosen or Webb, also turn out to be the guy....I'd say that is a great scenario.


I trust Gettleman. If they pass on a quarterback, it will be because they don't think they are a correct value for that pick.

I don't believe it will because they have a conviction that Webb is the next guy.
joe  
ryanmkeane : 3/6/2018 2:32 pm : link
if they have conviction that Webb is the guy, it would be really stupid to draft a QB.
Totally agree  
TMS : 3/6/2018 2:34 pm : link
with your conclusions. Barkley or trade down for a lot of picks which could include Nelson or Chubb and a lot of other pieces. Great post
Every guy on the Giants  
chuckydee9 : 3/6/2018 2:37 pm : link
making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..
RE: RE: RE: New regime in place  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 2:38 pm : link
In comment 13852214 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13852191 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 13852189 EddieNYG said:


Quote:


I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.



People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?

If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?


I think, if they believe that Webb is the guy, we should hope he emerges sooner than two years from now. Otherwise, he'll only have one year left on his rookie deal which is problematic on two fronts: for one thing, it means they'll have essentially thrown away the benefit of having a young QB and being able to build a roster around his lower salary; secondly, they'll have to make a long-term decision on Webb with only one year of live game experience and without a safety net.

It would be great if Webb was the next franchise QB and he's already drafted and the succession plan is already in place. But it's really just wishful thinking at this point, whether that comes from talking heads like Dilfer or other Giants fans directly. Neither Gettleman nor Shurmur have any reason but to sing his praises at this point, but just remember that the entire league (including the Giants) passed on Webb twice, and nothing since then has provided a reason for anyone to feel more confident about Webb than they should about any other 3rd round pick (and I'm speaking about 3rd round picks in general, not even referencing Reese's abysmal draft record with that round).

It's not impossible that Webb becomes the Giants' next QB. But it's wildly optimistic to depend on it.
NO matter which we go or which rationalization we use, it's wishful thinking for all of us.
RE: Every guy on the Giants  
TMS : 3/6/2018 2:42 pm : link
In comment 13852353 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..
How do you know what their opinion of Webb is ? Everything I read is that it is positive, Stop the BS.
If they love one of the QBs who's available to them at 2  
David B. : 3/6/2018 2:49 pm : link
They take him. PERIOD. Webb has nothing to do with it. As DG said, "you can't have too many good players at a position," and he said that when he was specifically asked about QBs at 2 in the draft. If they end up with two young guys that both look good, they'll have a commodity for trading later.

And as Mayock said, "If they DON'T love one of the QBs who's available to them, they look at Barkley, Chubb" -- or trading down.

Until then, anyone like Dilfer, Raanan or whoever says or writes that they know what the Giants are thinking in regard to this should be laughed at and mocked mercilessly.

And the Giants should give away NOTHING about what they're thinking. Let's hope they have a tighter ship this year, because I wouldn't be surprised if the Browns were open for business on trades for the 1. Regardless of who the Browns (or whoever) take first, the Giants SHOULD be able to get a player THEY LOVE at 2.
RE: RE: RE: New regime in place  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 3/6/2018 2:51 pm : link
Quote:
I think some fans just want Barkley so badly that they're rationalizing not taking a QB anyway they can.


Ding ding ding
The  
ryanmkeane : 3/6/2018 2:52 pm : link
"you can't have too many good players at a position" really doesn't apply to QB.
RE: RE: Every guy on the Giants  
chuckydee9 : 3/6/2018 2:53 pm : link
In comment 13852358 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 13852353 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..

How do you know what their opinion of Webb is ? Everything I read is that it is positive, Stop the BS.


As I mentioned they all passed on him 3 times at least.. When everyone was looking forward to having a future QB play snaps in a meaningless season.. both his HCs couldn't bring him to take a snap.. Actions speak much louder than words.. there is nothing to like there.. may be in 2-3 more years.. but no one right now knows anything about him..
I'm as bullish about Webb as most anyone,  
Section331 : 3/6/2018 3:01 pm : link
but I fail to see how this administration would have enough intel on him to decide that they won't take a QB in the draft. Sure, they may like what they've seen and/or heard, but I don't see how they could decide their future at the position based on that.

As I've said all along, if the Giants don't take a QB at 2, it won't be because they have faith in Davis Webb, it will be because they don't have faith in any of the guys available.
Compare  
Thegratefulhead : 3/6/2018 3:11 pm : link
Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers

How would you rank them?
Dilfer is getting $$$  
HoustonGiant : 3/6/2018 3:14 pm : link
From the Giants to spread the misinformation.
chucky  
ryanmkeane : 3/6/2018 3:14 pm : link
just because you pass on someone and then eventually take them, doesn't mean that player can't turn out to be really good. I fail to see what you are getting at with that.

The Giants passed on Victor Cruz in all 7 rounds.
Our new coach is largely responsible for the reigning Super Bowl MVP  
glowrider : 3/6/2018 3:16 pm : link
and the other NFC Championship QB/Offense. I think these guys will just key off the Browns. If Cle takes the RB, we get the QB of our choice. If they take a QB, we prob take the RB unless they truly are buying into one of the QBs. I do not think a trade back is happening simply because the top player in the draft is NOT a QB and we will walk away either with the top QB or the best player in the draft. Don't overthink it here.

Shurmur and Shula know QBs and have PROVEN to develop them. Eli has two more years. Webb on a rookie contract with no wasted space on Geno. QBs clearly don't need to be Tom Brady to win anymore. These offenses are something else.

That should be taken into consideration.
You  
AcidTest : 3/6/2018 3:17 pm : link
don't refuse to take a QB at #2 because of Webb. You do it because none are worth the #2 pick.
RE: Compare  
Section331 : 3/6/2018 3:20 pm : link
In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers

How would you rank them?


I'll play!

Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Last year some of the Giants defensive players  
Rjanyg : 3/6/2018 3:31 pm : link
were saying that the Giants don't need to draft a QB because they felt Webb was doing a great job. They have seen more of Webb than any of us and the Giants have film of his practice reps. It's not like a 3rd round pick is a late round pick.

None of us know what the Giants truly think about Webb.

Maybe the Giants defense knows what we need to know.
RE: RE: Every guy on the Giants  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2018 3:32 pm : link
In comment 13852358 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 13852353 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..

How do you know what their opinion of Webb is ? Everything I read is that it is positive, Stop the BS.

There is absolutely no benefit to having anything but glowing reviews come out about Webb. If they want to draft a QB, praising Webb helps mask their intentions. If they don't have a conviction about any of the QBs in this draft, praising Webb helps his confidence. If they are confident in Webb as their future QB, then of course they're going to praise him - why would they say anything negative?

I'm not saying that their praise is necessarily some sort of smokescreen, but I don't think you can draw any conclusion at all about it since there is not a scenario at all where they'd say anything but overwhelmingly positive things about Webb. It's the appropriate answer in all potential scenarios, so it means absolutely nothing.

If you think the front office and/or coaching staff has some sort of obligation to make sure you know how they honestly feel about anything as they lead up to the draft, you're just being naive.
If Eli was getting "benched", told to sit the second half, whatever  
TommytheElephant : 3/6/2018 3:33 pm : link
Then Webb should have been out there vs. Oakland
RE: Every guy on the Giants  
section125 : 3/6/2018 3:35 pm : link
In comment 13852353 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..


Gettleman had Newton, why would he draft a QB? Shurmur had Bradford and Bridgewater, why would he need a QB?

Think before you post.
RE: RE: Compare  
GFAN52 : 3/6/2018 3:40 pm : link
In comment 13852425 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers

How would you rank them?



I'll play!

Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen


Nicely done. One little quibble on size, Rosen is bigger than Darnold.
Found this Path to the Pros YouTube video of Webb  
Rjanyg : 3/6/2018 3:48 pm : link
Seems like a hard working guy. I didn't know he was voted Captain at Cal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_knliyjCihw
Its certainly possible,  
Keith : 3/6/2018 3:50 pm : link
but a major risk planning on it. Giants need to draft one of these QB's.
excellent posts here  
JonC : 3/6/2018 3:53 pm : link
by glowrider, Dunk, David B, Acid, et al.

NYG will get the best QB or best player in the draft, well put.
RE: RE: RE: RE: New regime in place  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 3:55 pm : link
In comment 13852378 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:


Quote:


I think some fans just want Barkley so badly that they're rationalizing not taking a QB anyway they can.



Ding ding ding
and vice versa
RE: Our new coach is largely responsible for the reigning Super Bowl MVP  
Milton : 3/6/2018 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13852418 glowrider said:
Quote:
I think these guys will just key off the Browns. If Cle takes the RB, we get the QB of our choice. If they take a QB, we prob take the RB unless they truly are buying into one of the QBs.
If they don't truly buy into one of the QBs, they shouldn't take one regardless of what the Browns did with their first pick. If the Browns take Barkley, the Giants could go Chubb or Nelson (both of whom I prefer over Barkley anyway).
RE: Found this Path to the Pros YouTube video of Webb  
Steve in South Jersey : 3/6/2018 3:59 pm : link
In comment 13852467 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
Seems like a hard working guy. I didn't know he was voted Captain at Cal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_knliyjCihw


Great video. Webb would be very easy to root for.
RE: RE: RE: New regime in place  
Keith : 3/6/2018 3:59 pm : link
In comment 13852206 EddieNYG said:
Quote:
In comment 13852191 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 13852189 EddieNYG said:


Quote:


I don't think Davis Webb is going to determine if they pass on a QB.



People keep saying that...but how would that be the case if they like Webb a lot?

If they like Webb a lot and think he can be a franchise type QB in 2 years...why would they still draft a QB?


They could really like Webb.

But it's a tough sell to me to pass on Darnold, Allen or Rosen because of Davis Webb.

I think some fans just want Barkley so badly that they're rationalizing not taking a QB anyway they can.

It would be foolish to pass on a QB picking at 2 with a 37 year old QB other than you don't like any of them.

If they trade out of 2, and the QB picked at 2 becomes an All-Pro, I guarantee you the people complaining the loudest would be the same ones who are hoping for a trade down now.


Yep. Nailed it.
RE: Found this Path to the Pros YouTube video of Webb  
mrvax : 3/6/2018 4:12 pm : link
In comment 13852467 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
Seems like a hard working guy. I didn't know he was voted Captain at Cal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_knliyjCihw


Good video. Webb looks athletic and seems to have a great attitude.
Good Points  
lax counsel : 3/6/2018 4:13 pm : link
A lot of good points both ways. At the end of the day, it will come down to whether the Giants really covet a qb at 2. I have a hard time believing they won't like at least one, if not two of the qbs. I don't think Webb will deter anyone from taking a qb.

Most of you know I am not a Webb fan, I saw him play a lot in college and was surprised he was picked as high as round 3. That being said, a late third round pick is not what I would call a premium pick on a qb, it's 100% a lottery ticket. I also believe if he's not picked by the Giants at 87, he falls into the forth round, which is Nassib territory. In fairness to Webb, best case scenario would be him as a franchise qb, and I'm not simply speaking about a medicore qb, but a legit franchise Qb. However, I don't see how it's really even disputable amongst fans that it's a long shot that he ends up anything other than a legitimate backup qb.
RE: It's definitely a gamble to place the future of the organization  
Rick5 : 3/6/2018 4:19 pm : link
In comment 13852197 nyjuggernaut2 said:
Quote:
in Webb's hands. But at the same time, it's a gamble taking a QB at #2 and hoping he becomes the franchise QB one day. Just have to trust the front office on this one whichever way they decide to go.

If they take one at number two, then either that QB or Webb could be the quarterback of the future. There's a better chance of one of the two quarterbacks panning out than putting all of their eggs in one basket.
I just dont understand  
gmen9892 : 3/6/2018 4:20 pm : link
This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.
RE: I just dont understand  
bLiTz 2k : 3/6/2018 4:35 pm : link
In comment 13852523 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.


Shhhh that premise ruins the narrative by many on this board that a QB should always elevate a shitty team regardless of how putrid it is. Don't you know its a 1 player sport?
RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2018 4:46 pm : link
In comment 13852533 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 13852523 gmen9892 said:


Quote:


This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.



Shhhh that premise ruins the narrative by many on this board that a QB should always elevate a shitty team regardless of how putrid it is. Don't you know its a 1 player sport?

It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
Was Dilfer's assessment  
Jay in Toronto : 3/6/2018 4:48 pm : link
of Webb based on any knowledge?

Did they cross paths at a QB camp? Does he have buddies on the Giants who shared impressions of Webb?
RE: I just dont understand  
Jay in Toronto : 3/6/2018 4:51 pm : link
In comment 13852523 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.


Good post. Thanks for unpacking this assumption. It's just that -- not a 'fact.'
So Let's say NYG drafts Darnold  
Rjanyg : 3/6/2018 4:52 pm : link
Darnold hasn't taken snaps under center if I am correct? He didn't audible much either correct? He is also very young.

How is adding Darnold a good investment in terms of being pro ready if we are saying how green Webb was or is?

The argument for Rosen or even Allen might be plausible because at least those guys ran more of a pro style offense.
RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
mrvax : 3/6/2018 4:56 pm : link
In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.


I can't conclude that Eli sucked because I believe that any QB last year would have been subject to lousy play calling, backup receivers and no time to throw the ball. If DG and Shumur get this fixed, we can see how Eli performs.

I will grant you that with these issues, Eli did not play well.
RE: RE: Compare  
Thegratefulhead : 3/6/2018 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13852425 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers

How would you rank them?



I'll play!

Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
That's where I have them too, except Rosen over Darnold in size. He doesn't seem that far away and he has had a year with Eli. I am hoping for Barkley at 2.
RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Section331 : 3/6/2018 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.


That's fair, but I think if most Giants fans are being honest, they will admit that Eli doesn't exist any longer. That doesn't mean that he can't be effective with a better supporting cast. So if upgrading the overall talent level is the plan, it's not the worst idea to roll with Eli for another year.
RE: RE: RE: Compare  
Section331 : 3/6/2018 5:02 pm : link
In comment 13852553 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
That's where I have them too, except Rosen over Darnold in size. He doesn't seem that far away and he has had a year with Eli. I am hoping for Barkley at 2.


Very true. I expected Darnold to come in a little bigger than Rosen (at least weightwise), and forgot the combine measurements.
RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13852533 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


In comment 13852523 gmen9892 said:


Quote:


This running theme that the Giants made a huge mistake not playing Webb last year. The offense was in shambles, the OL sucked, and he had no WRs to throw to.

Couple that with that fact that EVERYONE knows he was raw and was not NFL ready. What was to gain if he flopped? You saw vets like Manning and Smith also fail. More than likely, the same thing woulda happened with Webb, if not worse.

The tape from last year should be burned and buried for every Quarterback that played a snap for the Giants. There is a reason why McAdoo/Reese are out of a job right now, and it is mostly due to the fact that the offense and OL was a mess.



Shhhh that premise ruins the narrative by many on this board that a QB should always elevate a shitty team regardless of how putrid it is. Don't you know its a 1 player sport?


It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.
Without arguijng the point, I would say that there's a whale of a difference between elevating even journeymen players and less than replacement level players. In our SB, they weren't HoF players but they were capable. You can't say that these past couple years. It's really hard to make generalizations...this player is not necessarily that player.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2018 5:36 pm : link
In comment 13852558 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.



That's fair, but I think if most Giants fans are being honest, they will admit that Eli doesn't exist any longer. That doesn't mean that he can't be effective with a better supporting cast. So if upgrading the overall talent level is the plan, it's not the worst idea to roll with Eli for another year.

I wouldn't disagree with that - I don't think it's a mistake to stick with Eli for another year. What I do think is (at least potentially) a mistake is for fans to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny the possibility that Eli is in decline, even if some of his performance can be explained away by external factors.

The dream scenario for most teams is to be able to transition directly from one franchise QB to the next, and due to the way last season played out, we may have that opportunity. I don't think sticking with Eli for another season or two means that they can't draft a top QB prospect (and likewise, that drafting a top QB prospect doesn't mean they can't stick with Eli for another season or two). In a way, those two scenarios exist independent of each other, largely as a function of Eli's age. Even if there was absolutely nothing to suggest he might be in decline, I think it would be prudent to be looking for his successor anyway.

And I think some fans are waiting for that perfect QB prospect to blow them away - that guy doesn't exist. Every QB prospect has warts. The same thing will happen next year and the year after that. It's a function of the proliferation of the spread offense as well as the 24/7 news cycle which provides so much more access and insight to these players before the draft arrives. All QB prospects have flaws and they always have. We just didn't have the same access to learning about those flaws in the past, and we didn't have platforms like Twitter for those flaws to be amplified over and over again by the echo chamber of football analysts.

And even if there were to be a seemingly flawless prospect - such as Eli himself was or Andrew Luck in more recent years - it's hardly foolproof. Eli has been a great QB for this franchise for 14 years, and has led us to two SB victories, but has also led the NFL in interceptions (and turnovers in general) since he entered the league. Andrew Luck has been very good when healthy, but now may never be the same player again after his most recent injury.

This is an absolute certainty: we will need a new starting QB sometime in the near future. Whether some believe that to be one, two or even three years from now is a matter of some conjecture. But there will be a day where Eli will no longer be our QB, and at 37 years old, that day gets sooner and more real every year.

If Gettleman and Shurmur simply don't believe that any of the QB prospects in this draft have what it takes to succeed, then of course the Giants shouldn't force a QB pick. You shouldn't pick a player at any position, particularly that high in the draft, that you don't feel confident about. But if you do have a conviction about any of them, you shouldn't dismiss your opportunity to secure the successor to your 37 year old QB no matter how much you believe in the incumbent. Even if Eli does find the fountain of youth under Shurmur and with the benefit of an upgraded OL, the QB prospect would retain plenty of value (just look at Garoppolo - the Patriots kept him for three seasons and still got a better pick back for him than the one they spent to draft him).

The only risk is getting that pick wrong, and that risk exists with every player in every draft, no matter what position they play.
RE: RE: RE: Compare  
Essex : 3/6/2018 5:38 pm : link
In comment 13852454 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852425 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers

How would you rank them?



I'll play!

Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen



Nicely done. One little quibble on size, Rosen is bigger than Darnold.

Rosen last on athleticism??? You have to be kidding me. He might be the slowest, I didn't see their combo times, but the kid was one of the best tennis players in the country as a high schooler. Last time I checked, you need to be pretty athletic to play a game like that, and the footwork you need for tennis in using your body and posture to gain traction, power, and accuracy while hitting a ball is not that foreign from similar skills you need to throw a football, including on the run.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Compare  
Essex : 3/6/2018 5:43 pm : link
In comment 13852570 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 13852454 GFAN52 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852425 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852410 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


Webb Rosen Darnold Allen Mayfield
arm
accuracy
production
Character
health
size
athleticism
turnovers

How would you rank them?



I'll play!

Arm - Allen, Webb, Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield
Accuracy - Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Webb, Allen
Production - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen
Character - Webb, Allen, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Health - No concerns other than Rosen
Size - Allen, Webb, Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield
Athleticism - Allen, Mayfield, Webb, Darnold, Rosen
TO's - Mayfield, Rosen, Webb, Darnold, Allen



Nicely done. One little quibble on size, Rosen is bigger than Darnold.


Rosen last on athleticism??? You have to be kidding me. He might be the slowest, I didn't see their combo times, but the kid was one of the best tennis players in the country as a high schooler. Last time I checked, you need to be pretty athletic to play a game like that, and the footwork you need for tennis in using your body and posture to gain traction, power, and accuracy while hitting a ball is not that foreign from similar skills you need to throw a football, including on the run.


Also, this list is missing behind arm strength and accuracy, the most important attribute you need in a qb, and that is football intelligence. That is Eli's greatest strength and the reason why he is a HOF qb. Brady can recognize defenses, etc. The mental part of this game is just as important as the physical.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
lax counsel : 3/6/2018 6:01 pm : link
In comment 13852569 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13852558 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13852540 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



It's ironic that many Giants fans recognize the heroics of Eli himself for elevating a relatively mediocre team to Super Bowl champions in 2011 (and rightfully so - his performance that season and especially that postseason absolutely elevated that team to a level they otherwise had no business achieving), yet want to have it both ways and now use the crappy supporting cast as a way of dismissing what otherwise appears to be a trend of decline for Eli.

And it's not just Eli - look at the Packers without Rodgers and the Colts without Luck (or a few years earlier, without Peyton). Look at the 49ers before they inserted Garoppolo into the starting lineup and then after. There are QBs elevating crappy teams elsewhere in the league. We went 3-13 last year. It's not because everyone except Eli sucked. It's because everyone sucked.



That's fair, but I think if most Giants fans are being honest, they will admit that Eli doesn't exist any longer. That doesn't mean that he can't be effective with a better supporting cast. So if upgrading the overall talent level is the plan, it's not the worst idea to roll with Eli for another year.


I wouldn't disagree with that - I don't think it's a mistake to stick with Eli for another year. What I do think is (at least potentially) a mistake is for fans to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny the possibility that Eli is in decline, even if some of his performance can be explained away by external factors.

The dream scenario for most teams is to be able to transition directly from one franchise QB to the next, and due to the way last season played out, we may have that opportunity. I don't think sticking with Eli for another season or two means that they can't draft a top QB prospect (and likewise, that drafting a top QB prospect doesn't mean they can't stick with Eli for another season or two). In a way, those two scenarios exist independent of each other, largely as a function of Eli's age. Even if there was absolutely nothing to suggest he might be in decline, I think it would be prudent to be looking for his successor anyway.

And I think some fans are waiting for that perfect QB prospect to blow them away - that guy doesn't exist. Every QB prospect has warts. The same thing will happen next year and the year after that. It's a function of the proliferation of the spread offense as well as the 24/7 news cycle which provides so much more access and insight to these players before the draft arrives. All QB prospects have flaws and they always have. We just didn't have the same access to learning about those flaws in the past, and we didn't have platforms like Twitter for those flaws to be amplified over and over again by the echo chamber of football analysts.

And even if there were to be a seemingly flawless prospect - such as Eli himself was or Andrew Luck in more recent years - it's hardly foolproof. Eli has been a great QB for this franchise for 14 years, and has led us to two SB victories, but has also led the NFL in interceptions (and turnovers in general) since he entered the league. Andrew Luck has been very good when healthy, but now may never be the same player again after his most recent injury.

This is an absolute certainty: we will need a new starting QB sometime in the near future. Whether some believe that to be one, two or even three years from now is a matter of some conjecture. But there will be a day where Eli will no longer be our QB, and at 37 years old, that day gets sooner and more real every year.

If Gettleman and Shurmur simply don't believe that any of the QB prospects in this draft have what it takes to succeed, then of course the Giants shouldn't force a QB pick. You shouldn't pick a player at any position, particularly that high in the draft, that you don't feel confident about. But if you do have a conviction about any of them, you shouldn't dismiss your opportunity to secure the successor to your 37 year old QB no matter how much you believe in the incumbent. Even if Eli does find the fountain of youth under Shurmur and with the benefit of an upgraded OL, the QB prospect would retain plenty of value (just look at Garoppolo - the Patriots kept him for three seasons and still got a better pick back for him than the one they spent to draft him).

The only risk is getting that pick wrong, and that risk exists with every player in every draft, no matter what position they play.


Spot on. This is a very succinct way of stating the current situation. I have a hard time believing that the Giants will extend Eli to another contract. So at a maximum, Eli has two years left under center. At that point, the Giants will need a qb one way or another. This notion of a flawless qb prospect is overblown, and frankly, quite absurd. However, should a flawless prospect exist in some future draft, do we really believe the Giants will be the only team looking to trade-up?
RE: You  
NikkiMac : 3/6/2018 6:11 pm : link
In comment 13852421 AcidTest said:
Quote:
don't refuse to take a QB at #2 because of Webb. You do it because none are worth the #2 pick.
y

Why not maybe they like Webb more BS you don’t know anything for sure
Life is complex, dogma is easy  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 6:27 pm : link
It’s not that none of the QB prospects blow people away. At least it’s not just that there’s no prospects that blow people away. I’m sure that some of these guys will become solid players. But the hesitation by some is that there’s a player, albeit at a different position, that does blow people away. The talent differential is so large, not not in comparison to others at his position, but to every other player In the draft that some think it overcomes traditional biases against drafting a special player st his position and may overcome the need to immediately draft a QB, which, by itself, is good strategy for planning two years from now but may not be the most immediate need. Eli’s availability contributes to this, Eli’s age figures into it, it the unusual super,active ability of the RB also plays into it. Hence, co sternatin and controversy.
Selecting Barkley and “punting” on dealing with a clear-cut need  
Jimmy Googs : 3/6/2018 7:00 pm : link
to find the next starting QB is simply a ballsy strategy.

This is not to blame Eli but to come to grips with the fact that he is a key contributor to the decline of the Offense.

Wait to you all see the warts on the QB that will fall to us when we draft #14 next season or the one after that...
If the Giants pick a QB at two and Webb takes the lead in camp  
wgenesis123 : 3/6/2018 7:09 pm : link
and never lets go of it. So now what do the Giants do? According to many on BBI one year later Webb has zero value since he has done nothing in the last year. What value will that number two pick have? Oh yeah, he is insurance. A pick that comes along every 37 years and you want to spend it on insurance! The Giants can improve the team in a huge way with that number two pick and take a year to really find out what they have in Webb. Of course there will be no QB's after this year which is a good thing since the Giants will never get another opportunity to draft one. Never again!
I'm surprised that people are really willing to accept another year  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 3/6/2018 7:10 pm : link
with Eli as QB. Manning, with two seconds to release the ball, forcing it to double covered OBJ every passing down.

Eli getting hit and coughing up the football. Eli under pressure throwing the ball up for grabs.

I realize that Eli would look much better if he had a sound O-Line and a dangerous running game. But he doesn't have a sound O-Line.

Do we even know one player who will be starting next year? Surely they're not going to put Flowers out there at LOT again. Try him at another position and if he fails then he's a write-off.

Players that looked promising like Pugh, Richburg and Fluker saw their promising play deteriorate and/or they couldn't stay on the field. And a couple are free agents.

So given the promise of a shaky line next season, an immobile QB like Manning emphasizes the weakness in the protection. A younger quarterback who can sidestep a blitzer or roll out of a collapsing pocket while looking for an open receiver downfield minimizes and even frustrates the defensive pass rush.

Another year like last for Manning just further diminishes him in the eyes of others in the league.

My opinion changes if they sign Norwell and another one or two free agent linemen up a little in age, but sound and with above average ability.
Well I happen to believe that with Barkley, it’s closer  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 7:16 pm : link
To high 20’s that 14. But your point probably remains. Although, it contains an implicit assumption that at 14 the guy we picked is worse than someone in this crop. That’s no surety. Also assumes there’s no Bridgewater or Foles or whoever available. But there is every year. There’s this “this year or nothing” mantra which I think is not true. Especially when you eschew a unique talent differential.
RE: If the Giants pick a QB at two and Webb takes the lead in camp  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/6/2018 8:02 pm : link
In comment 13852620 wgenesis123 said:
Quote:
and never lets go of it. So now what do the Giants do? According to many on BBI one year later Webb has zero value since he has done nothing in the last year. What value will that number two pick have? Oh yeah, he is insurance. A pick that comes along every 37 years and you want to spend it on insurance! The Giants can improve the team in a huge way with that number two pick and take a year to really find out what they have in Webb. Of course there will be no QB's after this year which is a good thing since the Giants will never get another opportunity to draft one. Never again!


So what you're banking on is that there's a chance Davis Webb could win a camp battle, therefore the team should pass on a better prospect.

Look, I get that people have their minds apparently made up on these QBs, but Davis Webb wasn't some great prospect last year. He was an afterthought behind a couple of guys who everyone agreed would need to spend a year on the bench.

And he wouldn't be ahead of any of the guys at the top this year. He wouldn't even be ahead of Allen, and all he's done is be tall and have a big arm.
High 20s? So we turn into approx the 6th best team in NFL...ok sure  
Jimmy Googs : 3/6/2018 8:06 pm : link
Nevertheless, under your scenario it is now even riskier to find our next QB, or more expensive to move.

But if you think we can take Barkley and squeeze all remaining talent out of Eli to the tune of the 6th best team this next season then I would agree we should roll that dice.

Although I think that is awfully aggressive...
It does require a modicum of OL improvement  
Bill L : 3/6/2018 8:15 pm : link
ONJ, Engram, Eli, and Barkley.
I should say so. As much as I would love Barkley I can’t get  
Jimmy Googs : 3/6/2018 8:30 pm : link
my head around the concept that he adds the most value even though selecting him creates significantly more risk at QB for the future, and possibly very near future. And since QB is simply a more valuable cog than RB, we are going to be worse off.

And I realize many of you all have more conviction than I do that Eli will hold up. And to that point it appears as if the Giant brass does as well.

Man, I hope I’m wrong,,,

RE: If the Giants pick a QB at two and Webb takes the lead in camp  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2018 9:10 pm : link
In comment 13852620 wgenesis123 said:
Quote:
and never lets go of it. So now what do the Giants do? According to many on BBI one year later Webb has zero value since he has done nothing in the last year. What value will that number two pick have? Oh yeah, he is insurance. A pick that comes along every 37 years and you want to spend it on insurance! The Giants can improve the team in a huge way with that number two pick and take a year to really find out what they have in Webb. Of course there will be no QB's after this year which is a good thing since the Giants will never get another opportunity to draft one. Never again!

The Patriots spent a late 2nd on a QB, kept him for 3.5 of the 4 cheap years on his rookie contract, and STILL got a higher pick back when they traded him than the one they used to draft him. It really wouldn't kill you to actually pay attention to what happens in the NFL if you're going to continue to express your opinion.
the question isnt webb or eli  
msh : 3/7/2018 8:03 am : link
its the various downsides to everyone of the consensus big 4 QB's in this draft,none of the draft gurus are able to agree on the pecking order or whether any of them are the franchise QB's or not in fact some have jackson in the top 4 and mayfield way down,it probably would have been rosen but in new york facing the defences in the nfc east an injury prone QB with concussion history is a total non starter

its not burying your head if you dont believe any of them are that good,with the QB guru coach in shurmur who just took case keenum to the championship game what do you think he could do with eli?.

webb was widely tipped as having the talent but needing the development and he has a rifle for an arm,and smart player so that is plan b if eli truly was to blame for last years record (which i dont think he was and clearly neither did gettleman)

this is the reason why many of us want barkley they have a stable enough QB situation to pass on the QB crop anyway,you have major concerns with EVERYONE of them,barkley allows eli to hand the ball off more and extend his career not having to carry the team solely as he has done.his presence will force teams to pull guys out of coverage to stop him which will gives that receiving corps more favourable matchups thats a win win situation

could all be for nothing as the browns could take barkley at 1,if they do i would hope they trade the giants to get back in at 2 and take their QB at 4 the giants can then take one of chubb,fitzpatrick or nelson and maybe use one of the extra picks from that to take one of the other RB's in the second round if they came out with nelson and guice/michel and extra picks besides that will make a huge difference to the giants chances
RE: RE: If the Giants pick a QB at two and Webb takes the lead in camp  
Mike in NY : 3/7/2018 8:13 am : link
In comment 13852727 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13852620 wgenesis123 said:


Quote:


and never lets go of it. So now what do the Giants do? According to many on BBI one year later Webb has zero value since he has done nothing in the last year. What value will that number two pick have? Oh yeah, he is insurance. A pick that comes along every 37 years and you want to spend it on insurance! The Giants can improve the team in a huge way with that number two pick and take a year to really find out what they have in Webb. Of course there will be no QB's after this year which is a good thing since the Giants will never get another opportunity to draft one. Never again!


The Patriots spent a late 2nd on a QB, kept him for 3.5 of the 4 cheap years on his rookie contract, and STILL got a higher pick back when they traded him than the one they used to draft him. It really wouldn't kill you to actually pay attention to what happens in the NFL if you're going to continue to express your opinion.


The only pick higher than #2 overall is #1 overall. You aren’t suggesting using #34 to select a QB and letting him compete with Webb. If the Giants are not convinced that any of the QB’s are a substantial improvement over Webb, I don’t want to see one forced at #2 overall when we can possibly trade down for multiple high picks or take a different position that we know will substantially upgrade what we currently have
Once again...  
EricJ : 3/7/2018 8:14 am : link
They have no basis at all to determine whether Webb will be a solid NFL starter. He has yet to play a game and all of his practices have been with the JV team.

We know just a little bit more about his on field ability today than we did a year ago.
RE: Once again...  
cjd2404 : 3/7/2018 8:43 am : link
In comment 13852920 EricJ said:
Quote:
They have no basis at all to determine whether Webb will be a solid NFL starter. He has yet to play a game and all of his practices have been with the JV team.

We know just a little bit more about his on field ability today than we did a year ago.


Please point me to the youtube clips of any one of the college QBs playing in the NFL I did a search and can't find any

I can youtube Webb clips from college just like this years draft. PS has already said he watched the JV tape, talked with everyone in the building, etc to get a handle on Webb's abilities.

The logic of Webb has no bearing on the number 2 pick is also faulty.

Let's roll back history to 1983. How was Phil Simms as a QB then? The answer is not very good. I bet they looked at him and that helped them to determine whether or not they were going to draft Marino or Kelly.

The giants absolutely will look at their roster and determine area of absolute need and place a value on it. That will entail evaluating the position and the current roster at that position.
If they feel QB is the greatest need based on that, and the player they want is available, great go for it.

If they have that list but have a college player listed as a "must have" regardless of position (BPA) then they'll draft that player.
RE: RE: Every guy on the Giants  
chuckydee9 : 3/7/2018 9:01 am : link
In comment 13852446 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13852353 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..



Gettleman had Newton, why would he draft a QB? Shurmur had Bradford and Bridgewater, why would he need a QB?

Think before you post.

Yes because bradford and bridgewater are the end all solution to QB problems especially at the beginning of last year.. and regardless of position a GM going into the draft looks at all possible top players.. just because they have newton doesn't mean they don't properly evaluate a top 100 player.. At this point it only makes sense that DG says good things about Webb regardless of what he has seen or hasn't seen.. I doubt he has seen much because Webb isn't allowed to show anything or practise in front of Giants staff.. and at the time DG joined he had bigger things to worry about..
RE: RE: RE: Every guy on the Giants  
chuckydee9 : 3/7/2018 9:04 am : link
In comment 13852442 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13852358 TMS said:


Quote:


In comment 13852353 chuckydee9 said:


Quote:


making the decisions this time around was involved in the 2017 draft and they all passed on Webb 3 times.. trust me no one other than media who want to look relevant at this time of the year thinks highly of him to draft over a quality QB this time around.. if any of the QBs available standout to DG or PS then they will take him.. because no one whose job is on the line really thinks highly of Webb..

How do you know what their opinion of Webb is ? Everything I read is that it is positive, Stop the BS.


There is absolutely no benefit to having anything but glowing reviews come out about Webb. If they want to draft a QB, praising Webb helps mask their intentions. If they don't have a conviction about any of the QBs in this draft, praising Webb helps his confidence. If they are confident in Webb as their future QB, then of course they're going to praise him - why would they say anything negative?

I'm not saying that their praise is necessarily some sort of smokescreen, but I don't think you can draw any conclusion at all about it since there is not a scenario at all where they'd say anything but overwhelmingly positive things about Webb. It's the appropriate answer in all potential scenarios, so it means absolutely nothing.

If you think the front office and/or coaching staff has some sort of obligation to make sure you know how they honestly feel about anything as they lead up to the draft, you're just being naive.


+1.. this basic concept isn't going to go threw the Webb dreamers... Pat Shummer hasn't seen anything of Webb since he joined.. not one second of real football or even live practice.. how would his opinion have changed since the pre-draft?
RE: RE: Should have played him  
GiantsfaninNE : 3/7/2018 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13852230 BamaBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 13852219 Rflairr said:


Quote:


And the new regime would have something to go on



+1 Unfortunately, we are where we are.


+2 And dumb decisions like leaving Webb on the sidelines are why we have the new regime...
RE: RE: Should have played him  
GiantsfaninNE : 3/7/2018 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13852230 BamaBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 13852219 Rflairr said:


Quote:


And the new regime would have something to go on



+1 Unfortunately, we are where we are.


+2 And dumb decisions like leaving Webb on the sidelines are why we have the new regime...
everyones opinion on Davis Webb is better  
Jersey55 : 3/7/2018 4:33 pm : link
than mine and most everybody else too since none of us have seen what he can do, one of the biggest stupid screwups that the Giants have done in recent memory.....
Sure. I mean there is plenty of evidence to support this  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/7/2018 4:41 pm : link
with Webb's grand total of zero regular season snaps despite our worst season ever last season. Good stuff.
Wouldn’t they know more about Webb  
Bill L : 3/7/2018 7:53 pm : link
Than they know about any qb you could name in the draft?
aren't the coaches who would know  
fkap : 3/7/2018 9:10 pm : link
all about Webb now all working elsewhere or unemployed?

I'm sure there's lots of practice tape on him, and the Giants know a lot about him that they didn't know a year ago, but it still remains that most of the coaches weren't here last year (two assistants according to Eric's coaching list). the Maras and the scouting dept are still here, but how much contact any of them really had with Webb is unknown.

those who interacted the most with Webb in a football sense are gone. The players are still here.
RE: Wouldn’t they know more about Webb  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/7/2018 9:14 pm : link
In comment 13854169 Bill L said:
Quote:
Than they know about any qb you could name in the draft?


How much can you know about a QB who hasn't played a competitive football game since 2016 in college and barely worked with the first team depth chart?

Then only thing they can know are his practice habits and personality.
But even if every single person who knew him was gone  
Bill L : 3/7/2018 9:14 pm : link
And all the practice tape destroyed, they wouldn’t know *less* because they have the same college info that they have for all the draft qbs. So *anything* they have from the past year is an add on.
iOw, the argument that they don’t know what they have because he  
Bill L : 3/7/2018 9:15 pm : link
Never played last year, doesn’t hold water when looking at him in the context of the draft qbs
RE: aren't the coaches who would know  
Kev in Cali : 3/7/2018 9:19 pm : link
In comment 13854267 fkap said:
Quote:
all about Webb now all working elsewhere or unemployed?

I'm sure there's lots of practice tape on him, and the Giants know a lot about him that they didn't know a year ago, but it still remains that most of the coaches weren't here last year (two assistants according to Eric's coaching list). the Maras and the scouting dept are still here, but how much contact any of them really had with Webb is unknown.

those who interacted the most with Webb in a football sense are gone. The players are still here.


I think it's a good situation to have. Old regime out, new in....they will give it a completely unbiased look at the kid. I believe what they see in Webb is pivotal to the future of the offense....

There are just so many variables it's that it's fun to discuss, but nobody knows except DG and his staff and we will all learn on draft day what they were thinking on the current roster....
I’m down on Webb  
5BowlsSoon : 3/7/2018 9:25 pm : link
Let’s get the stud RB or some stud OL guy.
I think the Giants overall  
fkap : 3/7/2018 9:34 pm : link
do know a lot more about Webb than they did a year ago. That's undeniable. But that needs to be tempered with the reality that most of those making the decisions on the draft/planning for the future are making those decisions based on tape and the opinions of others rather than first hand knowledge.
When I realized the Giants season was over  
chopperhatch : 3/7/2018 10:14 pm : link
(not even lying, but was resigned to it after the Detroit loss) I had my hopes that they would lose enough to get a QB to succeed Eli. Then I was thrilled that they wound up with the 2nd pick in the draft so they had a real shot at Darnold who reminds me so much of Eli.

Now I have softened my stance quite a bit. Darnold really threw me off by not throwing at the combine and the rumors of his interviews being not great. Yes I know Eli didnt throw, but he didnt HAVE to throw. He was going to go top 3 no matter what. 4 of these qbs have been rumored as a 1st pick. Combine that with Barkley and theres a fairly solid chance that Darnold falls out of the top 5. Competitors dont let circumstance dictate their destiny.

Conversely, Rosen looked great at the combine, smiling, chatting and looking like he wanted to be there. That and he looked great throwing the ball....even next to Allen.

Mayfield looked ready at both the Senior Bowl and Combine showing great polish, mobility and accuracy.

But we currently have Webb, who is apparently at the facility every day with Eli, jas a big, big arm, is a coach's son and great at breaking down schemes and philosophy. If he is progressing well as we have been led to believe, then having him sit for another year or two behind Eli allows him to soak up even more. When he is ready to play, we will have to make a decision on extending him and can get away with something fairly modest depending on his production.


At this point I am completely spun as to what I want in the draft because there are so many good options. The biggest question would be if Allen is taken first overall, do I want Barkley (Hernandez in the 2nd), Darnold, or try and trade back hoping Nelson is there and praying for Michel in the 2nd.

Should be a fun month and a half.
If they take a QB @2  
Kev in Cali : 3/7/2018 11:11 pm : link
They are saying Webb isn't it and there isn't enough room for two, essentially rookie, QB's on the roster (well there is, but you get my point). Focus on the O-line, draft Barkley if available, and build on that. You don't need a perfect QB to win it all. Hell, Bortles shined at times and still gave the team chance to win. Dilfer got it done. Alex Smith was close, and Eli during his SB winning seasons showed that he wasn't lights out all year long....point being, you don't need a Rodgers, Brees, or Brady to win....

The supporting cast is more important than the one guy behind center. As great as Eli has been in the past, he will never win another SB or even make a playoff run with the team he had in front of him the past few years. A great O-line could/can mask the flaws of a QB with an above average brain and substandard passing skills (NFL wise).
Kev  
fkap : 3/8/2018 8:34 am : link
Drafting a QB, and keeping Eli, does put Webb in a bit of a bind, but it's not impossible. Webb would have to show enough in preseason to prove he's at least good backup material. If Eli leaves after this season, we're going to need a backup to this years drafted QB who presumably becomes the starter (I don't want a QB at 2 who isn't ready after a year). Webb would be a cheap option.

It would mean keeping 3 QBs again, but that's a real possibility anyway.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I just dont understand  
Section331 : 3/8/2018 11:19 am : link
In comment 13852569 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

I wouldn't disagree with that - I don't think it's a mistake to stick with Eli for another year. What I do think is (at least potentially) a mistake is for fans to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny the possibility that Eli is in decline, even if some of his performance can be explained away by external factors.


I completely agree with all of that. The only reason NYG don’t take a QB is if Gettleman and Shurmer don’t think any of those available are the right choice. I like Davis Weeb, and I’m slightly higher on his potential than most, but fans thinking that NYG are passing on a QB because they have Davis Effing Webb are living in a fantasy land. Regardless of what Giants brass says, there is no way they are pinning their future on Webb.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Compare  
Section331 : 3/8/2018 11:24 am : link
In comment 13852570 Essex said:
Quote:

Rosen last on athleticism??? You have to be kidding me. He might be the slowest, I didn't see their combo times, but the kid was one of the best tennis players in the country as a high schooler. Last time I checked, you need to be pretty athletic to play a game like that, and the footwork you need for tennis in using your body and posture to gain traction, power, and accuracy while hitting a ball is not that foreign from similar skills you need to throw a football, including on the run.


Hey, I agree. I’ve regularly defended Rosen when posters questioned his athleticism, but all of the QBs listed are good athletes. Allen is a freak, 6’5, 230, and ran the 3rd best 40 at the combine. Darnold also tested well, and was a highly regarded point guard in HS. Davis Webb is a plus athlete as well, so it comes down to Rosen and Mayfield, and I give a slight edge to Mayfield (mainly because he ran a bit in college). Either way, there isn’t a lot of daylight between these guys, imo.
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