So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
inside backer in a 3-4 can often operate as a WILL. Main responsibilities are blitzing and covering RBs/TEs. I think he's a good match with Goodson, who is more of a thumper.
inside backer in a 3-4 can often operate as a WILL. Main responsibilities are blitzing and covering RBs/TEs. I think he's a good match with Goodson, who is more of a thumper.
Jon, that's kinda what I thought, but didn't want to assume that is what Sy meant.
One of the things that is very commonly mentioned in articles
He's great at pass rushing but little else. Hasn't lived up to his potential at all but still a solid LB. Rams probably drafting LB 1st round now.
He routinely whiffs in the run game. He was miscast as a 3-4 ILB and maybe just as a MLB period. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants move him back outside. He was not worth his contract and I'm fully behind this move. Wade is making his voice heard loud and clear. The only downside to this is he was such a leader on defense. The Giants just got a tremendous guy for their locker room.
I think people over think the motivation behind moves like this. DG said when he took over he was going to improve the roster any way possible ( quite frankly that's his job). Teams are trying to compete every year. When you acquire a 26 year old who can play you are improving the position for 2018 and beyond. If he signs the guard from Carolina- same scenario. To his credit, Reese did the same thing with the defense with the 3 free agents. They were all young proven players. Where this organization has screwed up in the past was signing older past their prime players for strangling contracts.
I don't think this affects the #2 pick at all. If the guy he wants is there he will take him. If he gets a great offer for the pick he might trade it.
Think of AO as this years 4th pick (comp). Pretty good getting a starter with that pick.
RE: From another forum, from some Rams fans. For what it's worth.
He's great at pass rushing but little else. Hasn't lived up to his potential at all but still a solid LB. Rams probably drafting LB 1st round now.
He routinely whiffs in the run game. He was miscast as a 3-4 ILB and maybe just as a MLB period. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants move him back outside. He was not worth his contract and I'm fully behind this move. Wade is making his voice heard loud and clear. The only downside to this is he was such a leader on defense. The Giants just got a tremendous guy for their locker room.
Naturally they would say this to justify to fans... But take a look at the game he had against the Saints in critical game late last year and his stops on both Kamara and Ingram. He is very athletic and better than anyone the giants currently have. And obviously Bettcher knows him very well having played against him twice a year in Arizona. But his leadership is what is most exciting here - Giants have not had this kind of vocal leadership at linebacker since Pierce... it has been sorely needed and IMO the missing element on the defense over the last decade...
about Bettcher's defense is that traditional player roles are not what should be expected.
This. I think the move of DRC to FS and this acquisition are pretty big clues that Bettcher is looking to replicate what he did in Arizona. We acquired Ogletree through a trade prior to free agency, so he clearly targeted with a defined role in mind. It's pretty easy to see that he'll be in that Sean Witherspoon/Deone Buchanon role.
Bettcher has used a bunch of undersized players across his 3-4
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Giants made it clear today that they are not picking a QB in draft. They are clearly going to be aggressive in trying to win as much as they can before Eli is done. Teams with cap challenges and important FAs do not trade draft picks for players unless the plan is short term
RE: Bettcher has used a bunch of undersized players across his 3-4
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Giants made it clear today that they are not picking a QB in draft. They are clearly going to be aggressive in trying to win as much as they can before Eli is done. Teams with cap challenges and important FAs do not trade draft picks for players unless the plan is short term
I wonder if Banner noticed that the 4th that they traded was their conditional pick. This deal is essentially a 5th and 6th rounder.
for less than what the open market is going to pay the few top LB's out there in FA. His cap # here will be less than Hightower got last year and he's likely better than Nigel Bradham (or whoever we think the top LB available is).
Had to give up 2 non premium picks to do it, but they got a good player. Hankins and a 6th for Ogletree is a good trade.
Art Stapleton: Pat Kiwin making some cap sense here re: Ogletree.
for Ogletree, and this is coming from the most skeptical person of everything Jints Central does, if:
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
for Ogletree, and this is coming from the most skeptical person of everything Jints Central does, if:
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
for Ogletree, and this is coming from the most skeptical person of everything Jints Central does, if:
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
Agreed. Add in that the cap rules make it very preferable to acquire a veteran this way with his previous team paying out the signing bonus money vs. being the original contracted team on the hook for dead money. I think Kirwan is on to something with re-allocated the guaranteed roster bonus, but even still over the 3 years the Giants are responsible for a very small amount of guaranteed money compared to what any very good FA LB would get.
RE: RE: RE: Bettcher has used a bunch of undersized players across his 3-4
I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
NYG will likely run a hybrid scheme, where the WILL is always present. If I have the Cardinals scheme down correctly from last year, he might end up being the Buchanon role. Somewhat of a roamer, a lot of space/pursuit...etc. Goodson plays the inside role with more traffic and contact
I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
NYG will likely run a hybrid scheme, where the WILL is always present. If I have the Cardinals scheme down correctly from last year, he might end up being the Buchanon role. Somewhat of a roamer, a lot of space/pursuit...etc. Goodson plays the inside role with more traffic and contact
Thank you Sy, my thought as well.
I think this was a much needed trade for a quality LB
Yes, 2 picks is steep but I don't think we had UFA options to match this pickup. Ogletree is speedy and can cover.
I'm thinking our defense can bounce back this year from last year's debacle. I think Cromartie will be the starting FS and he can still cover. I think the DL can bounce back if healthy. If Goodson can stay healthy and play to his abilities we'll be ok.
Health; a good draft; some UFA's of merit; and, well we can bounce back to a winning season, even if its just 9 - 7.
This is the best LB we'll have on this roster since Pierce.
The price wasn't steep at all. He's 26 years old, he's very productive. He's a leader.
This is an excellent move.
Everyone has been whining (rightfully) that we have no linebackers - well, now we have a fucking linebacker!
Murray was traded by the Eagles to the Titans and all it cost TEN was a swap of 4th round picks with the Eagles.
Murray had his worst season as a pro in the year with Philly. I think he was actually benched.
What I meant was that it's odd to me that a good player would be moved for so little.
this is a great trade!
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
I
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Several players mentioned:
Randy Moss
Robert Quinn
LeSean McCoy
DeMarco Murray
Marcus Peters
Aqib Talib
Tony Gonzalez (not for less, but a 2nd round pick)
and more...
Jay Ajai
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In comment 13853932 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853900 Emil said:
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In comment 13853851 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853847 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13853844 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13853820 cjac said:
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
Didn't he man the middle of Williams' 4-3 in 2016 and have his most productive season there?
He's probably better suited to play WILL, but I didn't think he played poorly at all when he was a MIKE.
My question exactly
I was wondering if there had ever been a good player traded for such a return.
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Didn't he man the middle of Williams' 4-3 in 2016 and have his most productive season there?
He's probably better suited to play WILL, but I didn't think he played poorly at all when he was a MIKE.
In a 4-3 he is the Will and in a 3-4 he is an inside backer with Goodson
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In comment 13853977 Sy'56 said:
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Didn't he man the middle of Williams' 4-3 in 2016 and have his most productive season there?
He's probably better suited to play WILL, but I didn't think he played poorly at all when he was a MIKE.
In a 4-3 he is the Will and in a 3-4 he is an inside backer with Goodson
But the last time he played in a 4-3, he was the MIKE.. not the WILL.
Unless I am mistaken - but I remember him playing in the middle in 2016. Not on the outside.
Fair point, conversation closed.
-Jerry Reese
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In comment 13853994 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 13853977 Sy'56 said:
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Didn't he man the middle of Williams' 4-3 in 2016 and have his most productive season there?
He's probably better suited to play WILL, but I didn't think he played poorly at all when he was a MIKE.
In a 4-3 he is the Will and in a 3-4 he is an inside backer with Goodson
But the last time he played in a 4-3, he was the MIKE.. not the WILL.
Unless I am mistaken - but I remember him playing in the middle in 2016. Not on the outside.
That is true but Sy is right, he is better aligned as the WILL linebacker in both schemes because of his athleticism. Goodson is the better MIKE
Jon, that's kinda what I thought, but didn't want to assume that is what Sy meant.
He routinely whiffs in the run game. He was miscast as a 3-4 ILB and maybe just as a MLB period. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants move him back outside. He was not worth his contract and I'm fully behind this move. Wade is making his voice heard loud and clear. The only downside to this is he was such a leader on defense. The Giants just got a tremendous guy for their locker room.
A fact we all need to remember.
I don't think this affects the #2 pick at all. If the guy he wants is there he will take him. If he gets a great offer for the pick he might trade it.
Think of AO as this years 4th pick (comp). Pretty good getting a starter with that pick.
He routinely whiffs in the run game. He was miscast as a 3-4 ILB and maybe just as a MLB period. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants move him back outside. He was not worth his contract and I'm fully behind this move. Wade is making his voice heard loud and clear. The only downside to this is he was such a leader on defense. The Giants just got a tremendous guy for their locker room.
Naturally they would say this to justify to fans... But take a look at the game he had against the Saints in critical game late last year and his stops on both Kamara and Ingram. He is very athletic and better than anyone the giants currently have. And obviously Bettcher knows him very well having played against him twice a year in Arizona. But his leadership is what is most exciting here - Giants have not had this kind of vocal leadership at linebacker since Pierce... it has been sorely needed and IMO the missing element on the defense over the last decade...
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1:03 PM - 7 Mar 2018
This. I think the move of DRC to FS and this acquisition are pretty big clues that Bettcher is looking to replicate what he did in Arizona. We acquired Ogletree through a trade prior to free agency, so he clearly targeted with a defined role in mind. It's pretty easy to see that he'll be in that Sean Witherspoon/Deone Buchanon role.
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1:03 PM - 7 Mar 2018
They were also college teammates.
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Giants made it clear today that they are not picking a QB in draft. They are clearly going to be aggressive in trying to win as much as they can before Eli is done. Teams with cap challenges and important FAs do not trade draft picks for players unless the plan is short term
Wade's version of the 3-4 is very interesting. It's not a traditional bill parcells/belichick 3-4 defense.
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Giants made it clear today that they are not picking a QB in draft. They are clearly going to be aggressive in trying to win as much as they can before Eli is done. Teams with cap challenges and important FAs do not trade draft picks for players unless the plan is short term
I wonder if Banner noticed that the 4th that they traded was their conditional pick. This deal is essentially a 5th and 6th rounder.
I wonder if Banner noticed that the 4th that they traded was their conditional pick. This deal is essentially a 5th and 6th rounder.
Yeah I'm not sure he realized that...but he raises an interesting point. I think it's still a good trade whether you are going for it or rebuilding.
Come on folks, get a clue!
Had to give up 2 non premium picks to do it, but they got a good player. Hankins and a 6th for Ogletree is a good trade.
Pat Kirwan: really like Ogeltree to the Giants-7mil roster due 3/16 time to convert it to a signing bonus and getting 5.25 cal space back
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Remember, though, he and Odell are what started the sideline brawl when we played the Rams...
Ogletree tackled Odell late, out of bounds and Odell threw the ball at him, starting everything
Eh, no big deal. This actually reduces the Giants chance of getting a 15 yard penalty given that they will both wear blue.
I think you can still get 15 for fighting with a teammate
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
Agreed, bw.. it's a good move for us.
We're acknowledging that the LB position exists!
That in, an of itself, is a big deal to me.
It's clear the NYGs have to mic him up for every game if he plays like that "wired". (smile)
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defense. I guess Wade Phillips prefers size/stoutness over speed.
Wade's version of the 3-4 is very interesting. It's not a traditional bill parcells/belichick 3-4 defense.
How many superbowls has he won?
1. Youve never seen Ogletree play
2. Are confusing a 4th round pick for a first round pick
3. Think unproven college talent is more important than proven, productive NFL talent...
Agreed. Add in that the cap rules make it very preferable to acquire a veteran this way with his previous team paying out the signing bonus money vs. being the original contracted team on the hook for dead money. I think Kirwan is on to something with re-allocated the guaranteed roster bonus, but even still over the 3 years the Giants are responsible for a very small amount of guaranteed money compared to what any very good FA LB would get.
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In comment 13854028 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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defense. I guess Wade Phillips prefers size/stoutness over speed.
Wade's version of the 3-4 is very interesting. It's not a traditional bill parcells/belichick 3-4 defense.
How many superbowls has he won?
Half as many as Parcells and Coughlin.
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
NYG will likely run a hybrid scheme, where the WILL is always present. If I have the Cardinals scheme down correctly from last year, he might end up being the Buchanon role. Somewhat of a roamer, a lot of space/pursuit...etc. Goodson plays the inside role with more traffic and contact
The Giants effectively as is signed a 26 year old LBer, a year removed from a 2nd team All Pro year, to 2-year 22M contract.
In zero worlds is that a bad deal.
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In comment 13853977 Sy'56 said:
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I guarantee it. His worst gams were in MIKE type roles
Sy, in a 4-3 certainly, but with what is expected to be an increase in 3-4 looks, where do you see him playing?
NYG will likely run a hybrid scheme, where the WILL is always present. If I have the Cardinals scheme down correctly from last year, he might end up being the Buchanon role. Somewhat of a roamer, a lot of space/pursuit...etc. Goodson plays the inside role with more traffic and contact
Thank you Sy, my thought as well.
I'm thinking our defense can bounce back this year from last year's debacle. I think Cromartie will be the starting FS and he can still cover. I think the DL can bounce back if healthy. If Goodson can stay healthy and play to his abilities we'll be ok.
Health; a good draft; some UFA's of merit; and, well we can bounce back to a winning season, even if its just 9 - 7.