Will tell but it seems the Rams were desperate to get rid of him for whatever reasons maybe the most likely the CAP situation. If you know they are struggling with the CAP why include the 6th round this year for a 7th round next year? Thats my one question they are desperate we should come out of this trade smelling like highway robbers in this case the scale seems fairly balanced. A good thief has to know the true value of the product before stealing it or else how can he fence it off to gain true return
value. I would have offered the 4th round 2019, they can accept it or maybe end up cutting him if no one else bites. Ogletree may help us but he is not going to make this defense special all by himself.
Will tell but it seems the Rams were desperate to get rid of him for whatever reasons maybe the most likely the CAP situation. If you know they are struggling with the CAP why include the 6th round this year for a 7th round next year? Thats my one question they are desperate we should come out of this trade smelling like highway robbers in this case the scale seems fairly balanced. A good thief has to know the true value of the product before stealing it or else how can he fence it off to gain true return
value. I would have offered the 4th round 2019, they can accept it or maybe end up cutting him if no one else bites. Ogletree may help us but he is not going to make this defense special all by himself.
You are mad about a 6th rounder? Jesus. Your entire view on this is way off, IMO. We gave up what is essentially a 5th round pick and a throw away 6th for a guy who may be the best LBer we've had since a healthy Boley (better than Boley most likely).
Giants fans: We need stronger LBs.
Giants: Trade for strong LB.
Giants fans: Why did we trade for a LB?
Carl Banks absolutely loves the guy and thinks this was an outstanding trade
Having the extra fourth rounder made this move a no brainer.
They desperately needed an athletic LB, now they have one, they haven't hurt their draft much and they have the ammunition to get more picks if they choose to.
Like the trade felt the price since we are taking on a large amount of future CAP from a desperate CAP situation team was overpriced. My real concern is that many will think like you because of one, five or seven additional players this team will become contenders once again. Thats an unlikely reality there maybe three to four positions on this team that have true starting quality NFL players returning without an injuries concerns or major talent production. Hope for the best expect the worst should be the motto for this team dont expect to fix a 3 win team devoid of talent overnight.
I think many are forgetting how good the D was just 13 months ago
yeah they took a big step back (the whole team did) and there's a new system coming in but there is talent here and they just added a 26 year old pro bowl LB renowned for not only his ability but his leadership. To go with Snacks, Collins, Jenkins, Tomlinson, DRC, JPP, Vernon. This is a very good thing at a pretty insignificant cost.
There's very little defense in the NFL overall these days so I'm not saying this is the 2000 ravens, but there aren't many teams who have that much defensive talent. Fix the OL so the time of possession/turnover battle/field so the field isn't slanted against us plus a couple good draft picks and this defense is going to be very interesting.
Like the trade felt the price since we are taking on a large amount of future CAP from a desperate CAP situation team was overpriced. My real concern is that many will think like you because of one, five or seven additional players this team will become contenders once again. Thats an unlikely reality there maybe three to four positions on this team that have true starting quality NFL players returning without an injuries concerns or major talent production. Hope for the best expect the worst should be the motto for this team dont expect to fix a 3 win team devoid of talent overnight.
Capitalizing the word "CAP" doesn't make you any less clueless about the way it works.
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Wait, what? Are you fucking serious about McCoy being a HoF player?
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Then they should manage their cap better. Theres no reason not to be able to afford a top QB and DT in todays cap structure. Also, hes been traded because he also doesnt fit heir scheme, this isnt purely a salary dump.
Giants will be able to afford Eli, Beckham on a new deal, and the big 3 signings from 2016, in addition to having enough room to go after a top OLman in FA. so who cares what the rams are doing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to Schwartz and Tom Rock
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Wait, what? Are you fucking serious about McCoy being a HoF player?
Just when I had thought I had seen it all.
Hey no need for the language buddy. Not as ludicrous as you think it is either. Hes top 30 all time in rushing as it is. If he plays two more years, and he will probably play that and more, hell get over 12,000 yds and that makes him a near shoe in. Only 16 backs have 12,000 career rushing yds or more and 13 of them are in the Hall. Im not even taking his receiving yds into the equation.
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
And theyre gonna have to pay Gurley.
Again - the cap benefit of trading for him is they can cut him easily
in subsequent seasons with minimal dead money. That's one of the factors that makes this an interesting, and possibly very shrewd move, in comparison to giving out significantly more guaranteed money to any comparable UFA this offseason who would then be impossible to cut for 2-3 years.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
The cost in draft picks for Ogletree is very reasonable.
a couple years ago everybody would have said what a steal. Now pessimistic Giants fans say we got screwed. Seriously. Think about it if this year we traded down and gave up a 6 to get him in the fourth round everyone would be happy. Now this year many fans are saying it's stupid. I give up.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
That's a dangerous game. Didn't a bunch of NBA teams just get caught in shitty contracts because the cap unexpectedly went down?
But even regardless of that, while cap hell is no longer a realty the cap does still influence decision making. We're seeing it with the Rams. Is it mismanagement, or are they now the victims of their own good drafting?
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
I don't think anyone is saying the "cap doesn't matter" as much as they're saying it's more maneuverable than others believe.
Again - how many times have the Giants lost a quality player to FA with the primary reason being that they couldn't afford to pay him in recent years?
It's entirely possible that LAR traded Ogletree because they felt he wasn't a great fit for Wade's defense and wanted to recoup some assets instead. His play wasn't quite as good this past year as it was when Williams was there.
If your argument is that teams can't keep everyone... no shit. I think most people know that.
I don't think people are arguing otherwise.
The cap simply isn't as restrictive as some seem to think.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
No, they dont say its maneuverable, they say it doesnt prevent teams from keeping guys they want to keep.
The Giants havent had any issues in recent years because their roster hasnt been that talented. Look at the guys they let walk after their rookie deals. Look at their posture towards Richberg/Pugh.
for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
Quote:
For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
That's a dangerous game. Didn't a bunch of NBA teams just get caught in shitty contracts because the cap unexpectedly went down?
But even regardless of that, while cap hell is no longer a realty the cap does still influence decision making. We're seeing it with the Rams. Is it mismanagement, or are they now the victims of their own good drafting?
It's a symptom of a crappy system. It's so bizarre that the NFL actively punishes teams for hitting home runs in the draft. No other sport does this, even capped sports. The NBA encourages teams to keep their own talent by giving the home team the ability to offer more contract years and go over cap for their own players.
Because it really doesn't prevent most teams from keeping players they want to keep.
Yes, you have to prioritize certain players.
If Weston Richburg had performed much better the last 2 seasons, or of Justin Pugh could actually stay on the field, I have a feeling NYG would be more focused on retaining them.
Letting them go probably has just as much to do with performance/durability as it does the cap.
Players like Beckham and Collins won't go anywhere because the Giants will make them priorities.
Just like LAR won't lose Gurley or Donald. They'll pay both players and keep them.
Sure, there are cap casualties - but most of the time, it's players whom execs feel are either getting old and won't provide proper ROI, are injury prone, or have flat underperformed.
The vast majority of the UFA's are JAG's and garbage.
There are some quality players. But for the most part, if a team really wants to keep a player, they will. Even if they have to utilize the option of tagging them to do so.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
Then there's Goff and Gurley in a couple years...
That 40 million is going to go pretty quickly.
The $40M is this year (2018), right now they're projected at ~$97M in available space in 2019 and over $140M in 2020 (estimated for both).
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
The Giants defense has been missing a vocal leader.... supposedly, he is more leader/locker room guy then anything else....but still a major upgrade for us.
The defense disfunction could be resolved with a leader like him
than he actually is....by that I mean, when you look at what we have been trotting out there for linebackers, these last 7 seasons, he will just look all world in comparison.....
Remember Beason? He comes here and makes a simple play that an average linebacker should make, and BBI went Lady Gaga.....
But it also showed, how much the position had been ignored...Shame on you Reese....
I do not think, signing one linebacker turns us into a 3-4 defense.....especially since the only other linebacker you really have can't stay on the field...
Also, it's amazing how excited some on BBI are getting, over the acquisition of of a 7th rounder next year.....maybe we can use it to trade up to get another Bisnowaty......OK, another shot at Reese.....
The draft, if we are lucky, usually produces one legitimate starter, and maybe a body, as a starter....if any other draft picks stick, they are ST's or backups at best.....
Of course, that was the MO of Reese and Co., hopefully Gettleman changes that......would be nice to get some "playahs" after the second round....
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
The position has been that the cap is increasingly becoming a non-issue while some posters continue to look at it like they did in the 90's. I posted a stat that in 1999, over half the teams in the league were over the cap and had to make cuts or restructure contracts. In the past few years, the number of teams has been less than 5 each year.
Also, people keep pointing to Vernon and JPP's contracts (as well as Eli's) as limitations on who we can sign, yet all of them have reasonable cap hits that have been managed well and can come off the books next year with limited exposure.
By the way - Ogletree is probably a poor example of a cap move. It could be that the Rams don't want to spend to the cap or that they want to resign other players and are hedging against longer-term issues, but they still have a lot of cap room and traditionally stay well below the cap.
The per year amounts are high, but he can be cut starting next year for no dead cap.
That's because he was traded. The Rams assumed the balance of his amortized signing bonus (a $6.4MM dead money hit to them this year). The only guaranteed money the Giants will have to pay will be roster bonuses this year and next.
I wouldn't necessarily call his contract team-friendly in any way other than all traded contracts become team-friendly in terms of the escape hatch that the trade creates (because the signing bonus stays with the original team). $10MM/yr isn't cheap for a LB, so in that way, it's not particularly team-friendly. IMO, a team-friendly contract should be one that the team benefits by honoring, not simply one that is easy to get out of.
finally a linebacker... and the best part about this is
he isnt wasting picks in the draft. He is getting value from draft picks. Obviously 4th and 6th round arent sure things. It gives Gentlemen less chance to fuck up.
The contract is good as a result of the trade, that's not debated. What the Giants do now is what matters. If they convert the roster into a signing bonus, and put guaranteed money into the third year, this is a very fair deal for all sides. It increases the chances they honor more of the contract and provides flexibility.
That said, he is compensated above value for a LB. It wasn't a good contract the Rams got into, and they bought themselves out of it.
@nfldraftupdate
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New Giants LB Alec Ogletree is probably too limited vs. Pass to ever justify the ~$8.5M APY he earns, which calls to question why the Rams gave it to him.
Either way, really good (100-110 tackle per year) guy. Just on bad deal. Will have superior value to Big Blue's base setup.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
Watkins, long term? I know people keep waiting for him to show his potential, but those 39 catches last year must have been impressive for them to ditch their starting linebacker for a kicking tee so they can sign Watkins long-term.
Gurley they have two more years (4th year of his contract and 5th year option) before they need to extend him not to mention the FT.
Goff they have one more year than that. Ogletree would have been cuttable before they need to extend any of those guys except Donald.
but I think the Rams dealt Ogletree more out of a case of buyers remorse than needing to free up cap space. Looking back, that's a bad contract, and the Donald extension (the only one that makes this move make sense) looming they decide to rip the band-aid off now.
And to that point this site is kind of schizophrenic, I read multiple posts on the Giants cap situation (who have less room than the rams) say the Giants can do anything they want, cap space is fictitious and be created easily, but the Rams had to trade one of their starting linebackers they just signed to a LT deal less than a year ago because they need the cap space.
can't be both, unless it's only the Giants where the salary cap is a mythical limitation and they have super powers to get around it.
@nfldraftupdate
53s53 seconds ago
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New Giants LB Alec Ogletree is probably too limited vs. Pass to ever justify the ~$8.5M APY he earns, which calls to question why the Rams gave it to him.
Either way, really good (100-110 tackle per year) guy. Just on bad deal. Will have superior value to Big Blue's base setup.
He was 2nd among linebackers in pass breakups.
Not sure who that guy is but he seems pretty clueless.
They also have Peters who needs a contract and Joyner now tagged
at just under $12m. They considered putting the $16m tag on Watkins too so presumably he's going to get a number approaching or surpassing what Ogletree made.
Add those situations to Donald's $100m extension negotiations and they have some maneuvering to do even before Gurley and Goff come up. Seems like they just decided they could get an asset that's almost the equivalent of what they'd get via a FA compensation pick (4th) and clear Ogletree's money after this year.
value. I would have offered the 4th round 2019, they can accept it or maybe end up cutting him if no one else bites. Ogletree may help us but he is not going to make this defense special all by himself.
Giants: Trade for strong LB.
Giants fans: Why did we trade for a LB?
Carl Banks absolutely loves the guy and thinks this was an outstanding trade
value. I would have offered the 4th round 2019, they can accept it or maybe end up cutting him if no one else bites. Ogletree may help us but he is not going to make this defense special all by himself.
You are mad about a 6th rounder? Jesus. Your entire view on this is way off, IMO. We gave up what is essentially a 5th round pick and a throw away 6th for a guy who may be the best LBer we've had since a healthy Boley (better than Boley most likely).
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Giants fans: We need stronger LBs.
Giants: Trade for strong LB.
Giants fans: Why did we trade for a LB?
Carl Banks absolutely loves the guy and thinks this was an outstanding trade
Having the extra fourth rounder made this move a no brainer.
They desperately needed an athletic LB, now they have one, they haven't hurt their draft much and they have the ammunition to get more picks if they choose to.
There's very little defense in the NFL overall these days so I'm not saying this is the 2000 ravens, but there aren't many teams who have that much defensive talent. Fix the OL so the time of possession/turnover battle/field so the field isn't slanted against us plus a couple good draft picks and this defense is going to be very interesting.
Capitalizing the word "CAP" doesn't make you any less clueless about the way it works.
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Wait, what? Are you fucking serious about McCoy being a HoF player?
Just when I had thought I had seen it all.
Then they should manage their cap better. Theres no reason not to be able to afford a top QB and DT in todays cap structure. Also, hes been traded because he also doesnt fit heir scheme, this isnt purely a salary dump.
Giants will be able to afford Eli, Beckham on a new deal, and the big 3 signings from 2016, in addition to having enough room to go after a top OLman in FA. so who cares what the rams are doing.
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The 4th rounder they traded is the company pick
So they got him for a sixth. Teams don't dump good players for a compensatory 4th and a sixth.
Better players have been traded for less.
Like who? Not sarcasm, trying to think of an example.
Shady McCoy for one
McCoy was traded for a guy that was one year removed from defensive rookie of the year. I don't think that one fits.
Are you kidding me. The Eagles trade a top 3 running back for an undersized LB who had a history knee injuries. Doesn't fit! Kiko Alonso is a good player, but McCoy is hall of fame player. Alonso is now on his third team in his short NLF career.
An undersized linebacker with a history of knee injuries who had just won defensive rookie of the year and notched 159 tackles. I think we can certainly argue that that's worth more than the last pick of the 4th round.
McCoy is a hall of fame player, who was traded for a good LB. I'd say the Bills got way more out of that deal than the Eagles did.
Wait, what? Are you fucking serious about McCoy being a HoF player?
Just when I had thought I had seen it all.
Hey no need for the language buddy. Not as ludicrous as you think it is either. Hes top 30 all time in rushing as it is. If he plays two more years, and he will probably play that and more, hell get over 12,000 yds and that makes him a near shoe in. Only 16 backs have 12,000 career rushing yds or more and 13 of them are in the Hall. Im not even taking his receiving yds into the equation.
So yeah, hes gonna be a hall of famer
And theyre gonna have to pay Gurley.
It's ridiculous that this sport where every team is worth a billion dollars still has a salary cap.
He's a leader, from one of top colleges in the country.
We haven't had as prominent a LB as this for a long time.
Now let's draft one.
It's ridiculous that this sport where every team is worth a billion dollars still has a salary cap.
On this I completely agree. The salary cap sucks.
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
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for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
That's a dangerous game. Didn't a bunch of NBA teams just get caught in shitty contracts because the cap unexpectedly went down?
But even regardless of that, while cap hell is no longer a realty the cap does still influence decision making. We're seeing it with the Rams. Is it mismanagement, or are they now the victims of their own good drafting?
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In comment 13854329 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
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In comment 13854336 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13854329 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
Increasingly rare? Every year quality players are hitting FA because of the cap. Hell, the Giants might get a young all-pro guard in a week because of the cap.
Yes, but then consider the fact that the Giants are in a position where they could land that player after all the money they just recently spent on the defense and the fact that they're going to pay Beckham and (most likely) Collins in the near future.
How often do the Giants lose impact players to free agency because of the cap?
Linval was one. I'm not sure I'd even count Hankins - Reese's strategy always seemed to be to keep the pipe flowing @ DT anyway.
I think some teams manage their cap much better than others do. Not all teams are willing to spend all of their allocations, either. The Giants spend up to the limit every year. That isn't the case for everyone else. Some teams have smaller budgets even if they have the cap space.
That wasnt the argument. The prevailing argument by some on this site is that the cap doesnt matter because it goes up every year and teams are able to keep the guys they want to keep. Now it appears the proponents of this position are backpedaling saying its a rare case of mismanagement by team(s) when quality hits the market.
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
I don't think anyone is saying the "cap doesn't matter" as much as they're saying it's more maneuverable than others believe.
Again - how many times have the Giants lost a quality player to FA with the primary reason being that they couldn't afford to pay him in recent years?
It's entirely possible that LAR traded Ogletree because they felt he wasn't a great fit for Wade's defense and wanted to recoup some assets instead. His play wasn't quite as good this past year as it was when Williams was there.
If your argument is that teams can't keep everyone... no shit. I think most people know that.
I don't think people are arguing otherwise.
The cap simply isn't as restrictive as some seem to think.
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
Then there's Goff and Gurley in a couple years...
That 40 million is going to go pretty quickly.
The Giants havent had any issues in recent years because their roster hasnt been that talented. Look at the guys they let walk after their rookie deals. Look at their posture towards Richberg/Pugh.
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for the increasingly rare cases where teams mismanage contracts.
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For the people saying the cap doesn't matter,
Go Terps : 8:13 pm : link : reply
the Rams are losing some good players because they're anticipating making Aaron Donald the highest paid defensive player in the game and giving Jared Goff a contract that is being inflated by the money given to the likes of Stafford, Cousins, etc.
Keep in mind after a period of several years where the cap didn't go up, it has consistently risen $10M per year and is expected to keep doing so.
That's a dangerous game. Didn't a bunch of NBA teams just get caught in shitty contracts because the cap unexpectedly went down?
But even regardless of that, while cap hell is no longer a realty the cap does still influence decision making. We're seeing it with the Rams. Is it mismanagement, or are they now the victims of their own good drafting?
It's a symptom of a crappy system. It's so bizarre that the NFL actively punishes teams for hitting home runs in the draft. No other sport does this, even capped sports. The NBA encourages teams to keep their own talent by giving the home team the ability to offer more contract years and go over cap for their own players.
Yes, you have to prioritize certain players.
If Weston Richburg had performed much better the last 2 seasons, or of Justin Pugh could actually stay on the field, I have a feeling NYG would be more focused on retaining them.
Letting them go probably has just as much to do with performance/durability as it does the cap.
Players like Beckham and Collins won't go anywhere because the Giants will make them priorities.
Just like LAR won't lose Gurley or Donald. They'll pay both players and keep them.
Sure, there are cap casualties - but most of the time, it's players whom execs feel are either getting old and won't provide proper ROI, are injury prone, or have flat underperformed.
The vast majority of the UFA's are JAG's and garbage.
There are some quality players. But for the most part, if a team really wants to keep a player, they will. Even if they have to utilize the option of tagging them to do so.
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have cap issues?
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Donald is about to get a 100 million dollar contract.
They don't want to lose Watkins and they want Joyner long term. Not to mention Marcus Peters needs a new contract after this season and they'd probably like to retain one of Trumaine Johnson or Nickell Robey-Coleman. I'd imagine they don't want to lose their starting center either.
Then there's Goff and Gurley in a couple years...
That 40 million is going to go pretty quickly.
The $40M is this year (2018), right now they're projected at ~$97M in available space in 2019 and over $140M in 2020 (estimated for both).
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
The Giants value that player relative to their present and are not tied to anything long-term.
This isn't anything indicative of some issue in the system.
The Giants defense has been missing a vocal leader.... supposedly, he is more leader/locker room guy then anything else....but still a major upgrade for us.
The defense disfunction could be resolved with a leader like him
Remember Beason? He comes here and makes a simple play that an average linebacker should make, and BBI went Lady Gaga.....
But it also showed, how much the position had been ignored...Shame on you Reese....
I do not think, signing one linebacker turns us into a 3-4 defense.....especially since the only other linebacker you really have can't stay on the field...
Also, it's amazing how excited some on BBI are getting, over the acquisition of of a 7th rounder next year.....maybe we can use it to trade up to get another Bisnowaty......OK, another shot at Reese.....
The draft, if we are lucky, usually produces one legitimate starter, and maybe a body, as a starter....if any other draft picks stick, they are ST's or backups at best.....
Of course, that was the MO of Reese and Co., hopefully Gettleman changes that......would be nice to get some "playahs" after the second round....
This is patently false imv. Quality guys are hitting the market every year from all over the league bc of the cap.
The position has been that the cap is increasingly becoming a non-issue while some posters continue to look at it like they did in the 90's. I posted a stat that in 1999, over half the teams in the league were over the cap and had to make cuts or restructure contracts. In the past few years, the number of teams has been less than 5 each year.
Also, people keep pointing to Vernon and JPP's contracts (as well as Eli's) as limitations on who we can sign, yet all of them have reasonable cap hits that have been managed well and can come off the books next year with limited exposure.
By the way - Ogletree is probably a poor example of a cap move. It could be that the Rams don't want to spend to the cap or that they want to resign other players and are hedging against longer-term issues, but they still have a lot of cap room and traditionally stay well below the cap.
He's a leader, from one of top colleges in the country.
We haven't had as prominent a LB as this for a long time.
Now let's draft one.
How about another Georgia LB in Lorenzo Carter ( round 2? )
That's because he was traded. The Rams assumed the balance of his amortized signing bonus (a $6.4MM dead money hit to them this year). The only guaranteed money the Giants will have to pay will be roster bonuses this year and next.
I wouldn't necessarily call his contract team-friendly in any way other than all traded contracts become team-friendly in terms of the escape hatch that the trade creates (because the signing bonus stays with the original team). $10MM/yr isn't cheap for a LB, so in that way, it's not particularly team-friendly. IMO, a team-friendly contract should be one that the team benefits by honoring, not simply one that is easy to get out of.
That said, he is compensated above value for a LB. It wasn't a good contract the Rams got into, and they bought themselves out of it.
@nfldraftupdate
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New Giants LB Alec Ogletree is probably too limited vs. Pass to ever justify the ~$8.5M APY he earns, which calls to question why the Rams gave it to him.
Either way, really good (100-110 tackle per year) guy. Just on bad deal. Will have superior value to Big Blue's base setup.
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have cap issues?
With Quinn and Ogletree the Rams have almost $30M in space.
Without them they have probably over $40M and they don't have long-term cap issues/albatross contracts.
I do think they have several key pieces in need of extension (Donald, then Gurley and eventually Goff), but Goff and Gurley still have the 5th year option and then FT so that's 3/4 years away before they'd have to extend either.
Not sure I buy it that the cap forced the Rams to trade Ogletree.
Sammy Watkins
Aaron Donald
Todd Gurley
Rams badly want all three long term.
Not to mention Goff will get a pay day in 2-3 years.
Watkins, long term? I know people keep waiting for him to show his potential, but those 39 catches last year must have been impressive for them to ditch their starting linebacker for a kicking tee so they can sign Watkins long-term.
Gurley they have two more years (4th year of his contract and 5th year option) before they need to extend him not to mention the FT.
Goff they have one more year than that. Ogletree would have been cuttable before they need to extend any of those guys except Donald.
And to that point this site is kind of schizophrenic, I read multiple posts on the Giants cap situation (who have less room than the rams) say the Giants can do anything they want, cap space is fictitious and be created easily, but the Rams had to trade one of their starting linebackers they just signed to a LT deal less than a year ago because they need the cap space.
can't be both, unless it's only the Giants where the salary cap is a mythical limitation and they have super powers to get around it.
@nfldraftupdate
53s53 seconds ago
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New Giants LB Alec Ogletree is probably too limited vs. Pass to ever justify the ~$8.5M APY he earns, which calls to question why the Rams gave it to him.
Either way, really good (100-110 tackle per year) guy. Just on bad deal. Will have superior value to Big Blue's base setup.
He was 2nd among linebackers in pass breakups.
Not sure who that guy is but he seems pretty clueless.
Add those situations to Donald's $100m extension negotiations and they have some maneuvering to do even before Gurley and Goff come up. Seems like they just decided they could get an asset that's almost the equivalent of what they'd get via a FA compensation pick (4th) and clear Ogletree's money after this year.