I remember when PFF said Antrel Rolle was like the 85th best safety in the league - and then he went on to be a big part of a Super Bowl winner here.
Some of their stuff is interesting, a lot of it is trash.
PFF gave guys like Patrick Mahomes who played one fucking game better rookie rankings than Evan Engram. Some of their rankings have absolutely no logic behind them.
It appears that’s an area that he hasn’t quite cleaned up, but he is a very good LBer. He was a 2nd Team All Pro in 2016! One of the years that PFF graded him negatively. He’s had over 500 tackles in 5 years and that’s not by accident. PFF is not the be-all end-all. He also provide qualities that we need, like leadership!
I'll Trust The Giants' Review of Ogletree's Tape Â
He's a run-and-hit/cover linebacker. Very athletic. Two-time team captain with Rams. He is not a take-on-and-shed guy. His best position is weakside linebacker. That's where he has had his best seasons.
I remember when PFF said Antrel Rolle was like the 85th best safety in the league - and then he went on to be a big part of a Super Bowl winner here.
Some of their stuff is interesting, a lot of it is trash.
PFF gave guys like Patrick Mahomes who played one fucking game better rookie rankings than Evan Engram. Some of their rankings have absolutely no logic behind them.
A lot of it is based on someone watching tape on a player and they make an uninformed judgement call on how that down went for a player.
One of the Giants former Oline guys said if you don't know the players exact assignment on a play, it's worthless.
When they have a clearly defined metric, that's usually good stuff.
I remember when PFF said Antrel Rolle was like the 85th best safety in the league - and then he went on to be a big part of a Super Bowl winner here.
Some of their stuff is interesting, a lot of it is trash.
PFF gave guys like Patrick Mahomes who played one fucking game better rookie rankings than Evan Engram. Some of their rankings have absolutely no logic behind them.
A lot of it is based on someone watching tape on a player and they make an uninformed judgement call on how that down went for a player.
One of the Giants former Oline guys said if you don't know the players exact assignment on a play, it's worthless.
When they have a clearly defined metric, that's usually good stuff.
Yeah, like I said - I think they have some interesting stuff once in a while, but when they try to tell me that Alec Ogletree is like the 450th best linebacker in the league or that Patrick Mahomes had a more impactful rookie campaign than Evan Engram, I can't take it seriously.
People need to stop relying on their rankings for anything other than curiosity. They're very far off the mark on a lot of players.
He's a run-and-hit/cover linebacker. Very athletic. Two-time team captain with Rams. He is not a take-on-and-shed guy. His best position is weakside linebacker. That's where he has had his best seasons.
We have no LBs who can cover. Didn't we break the record for most TD passes surrendered to TEs last year? This guy can cover. Great trade.
Who apparently fits Bettchers scheme, hes fast, young, and a vocal leader. No one is expecting a perfect player for a 4 and a 6 rd pick. Hes far better than any linebacker on our roster amd hes a captain. PFF are laughable
It is shit when it a Giant player is graded poorly but it is celebrated as gospel when a Giant grades out well.
If I made a post yesterday asking about a hypothetical trade for Ogletree, I guarantee most of you wouldn't be open to the idea of Ogletree and be parroting his PFF grades.
PFF is a good tool if you understand how the grading system works and understand its flaws. It is not the end all be all stat on a player.
I remember a couple of games where Munson graded out very well, that doesn't make him a better player than Ogletree.
In 2016, Keenan Robinson graded out poorly compared to the other guys on our roster but I thought he was our best LB.
I guess his low grade is because he missed a bunch of tackles last year, but that is something he can work on. He is an impact player because of his speed and instincts at LB.
It is shit when it a Giant player is graded poorly but it is celebrated as gospel when a Giant grades out well.
If I made a post yesterday asking about a hypothetical trade for Ogletree, I guarantee most of you wouldn't be open to the idea of Ogletree and be parroting his PFF grades.
PFF is a good tool if you understand how the grading system works and understand its flaws. It is not the end all be all stat on a player.
It's also possible that some people just put more stock in it than others.
It doesn't have to be the same people treating it as "gospel" when it's favorable and calling it worthless when it isn't.
Of course, there's always that evasive poster called "BBI" who seems to be all-encompassing...
That Bettcher runs his D where one of the middle backers is basically like a big safety that can either blitz or cover backs and TEs. People were ready to put Collins in this role. So, doesn't this make sense with what Bettcher wants at the position and isn't this playing to the strengths of th6js player? What is not to like here? He sound like a perfecr fit.
And lets not get caught up in a 4-3 WILL or inside backer in a 3-4. There are so many variations of defenses that Bettcher's 3-4 is not the same as Wade Phillips' 3-4. Bettcher's money backer position sound awfully like a WILL backer in a 4-3.
And, finally, isn't it about time we get a player that can matchup with TEs so they don't destroy us for about the 6th time in 7 years or so?
I don't know what position he played last year, but watching the highlight tape Eric posted. It looks like he either was covering the RB or Blitzing. Couple times he dropped into the center zone. Looks like most of the time they had 5 guys on the line and 2 lbs?
- First off, they grade play by play on a +1 to -1 scale
- They are graded by pretty much armchair fans, and rarely audited by the vast bench of coaches they claim rate players.
- If the grader can't tell what a guy did on a play, he gets a zero
In many ways, think if a JerseyJoe watched film and graded a guy - and that boils down what PFF realistically represents.
Yet people eat it up. Good or ban ratings, they are nearly always incorrect.
I don't know what position he played last year, but watching the highlight tape Eric posted. It looks like he either was covering the RB or Blitzing. Couple times he dropped into the center zone. Looks like most of the time they had 5 guys on the line and 2 lbs?
I would think that describes a MLB?
Oh, sorry, it was actually the video that came on automatically after the one Eric posted. Link - ( New Window )
is all you need to know. He can play the run and pass, what more do you want? With all these new types of offense you want LB's that can cover. Look at the Eagles, their LB's aren't the best run stoppers but they have speed and can cover!
I don't understand why people are complaining about this pickup Â
Giants clearly needed to strengthen their LB corp and adding Ogletree for a 4th round pick is a no-brainer IMO. He's an improvement over any LB that was on the roster last season.
This team desperately needs leaders and players who are good in the locker room. This player fits the bill and at that cost it is a really good deal for the Giants.
And how do you grade a player if you don’t know the specific offensive or defensive play?
Even if they do, I have a feeling a lot of their guys don't quite understand each player's responsibilities in each given snap and are incorrectly guessing on a handful of them.
I appreciate what they're trying to do - but it's severely flawed analysis.
This team desperately needs leaders and players who are good in the locker room. This player fits the bill and at that cost it is a really good deal for the Giants.
And how do you grade a player if you don’t know the specific offensive or defensive play?
Even if they do, I have a feeling a lot of their guys don't quite understand each player's responsibilities in each given snap and are incorrectly guessing on a handful of them.
I appreciate what they're trying to do - but it's severely flawed analysis.
Exactly. Corner thinks he has safety help over the top. He lets the receiver go and...TD. No safety help because the safety fell asleep at the wheel. How does the PFF evaluator know who had what on that play?
He has averaged almost 10 pass breakups per year...which is a lot for a linebacker.
Not when you consider he’s played 95% of the defensive snaps for his entire career.
For the record I like the pickup and no I don’t take PFF to heart, but maybe we should tamper our expectations just a bit.
Name 1 LB on or current roster or one that was on last years roster that is better than Ogletree? Case closed he has already improved a position of need.
Goodson is that thumper who stuffs the run. Alec is super athletic in the Michael boley mold. Great trade. Young guy team captain for a few years and he’s a playmaker at the LB position
most people thought he was merely ok when the giants signed him about time we got some firepower in the LB corp he can cover the TE and tackle they have needed that for far too long
its a great pickup and worth the picks they paid to make it happen
he's a very good weak side linebacker... great in coverage, and can be a playmaker... On some of those "highlight" I really didn't like his technique/positioning when it came to tackling but that can be fixed...
A playmaker at LB though?? this is something the Giants have not had out of the LB position in some time!
given that Ogletree was voted All-Rookie in 2013 and second-team All-Pro in 2016.
He graded out -1.8 his rookie year and the only time he came close to that was when he beat it in 2015 when he graded out at -1.5.
For his career he is -28.3
Some seasons he graded out good in run defense and others he graded out well innpass rush. He has never graded out well in pass coverage.
Are you a native English speaker? I'm not trying to be a dick, it's an honest question. You seem to have trouble with basic conjugation and tense repeatedly, something common for those who learned English as a second or third or whatever language.
An off the ball LB who can cover and chase. In a 3-4 your two ILBs act as WLBs, usually offset and off the ball so they can see, diagnose and get to the play. One is usually given an interior gap on what is expected to be play side and the other plays wider and often deeper. This is not the "out of position" thing I have seen, it's in fact the ideal fit for his skill set.
His biggest issue last year was that one of his 5 technique DEs was Aaron Donald who was set free to get upfield and wasn't asked to two or 1.5 gap run lanes as a DE in this alignment usually is. Wade Phillips plays to his players' strengths and you let Donald do his thing regardless of alignment and other guys have to pick up the run slack. Ogletree is simply not a take on LB, he needs protection and should have that with the DL talent we have. He's not a world beater but he can run and chase and he's a vocal leader.
PFF has proven to be faulty on a billion occasions.
Watch the guy play. He's a leader and a pretty darn good linebacker. He had an excellent 2016. 2nd team all-pro.
He's not an elite player, but he's very good.
Some of their stuff is interesting, a lot of it is trash.
PFF gave guys like Patrick Mahomes who played one fucking game better rookie rankings than Evan Engram. Some of their rankings have absolutely no logic behind them.
I don't know much about this LB, but PFFs opinion is irrelevant.
He graded out -1.8 his rookie year and the only time he came close to that was when he beat it in 2015 when he graded out at -1.5.
For his career he is -28.3
Some seasons he graded out good in run defense and others he graded out well innpass rush. He has never graded out well in pass coverage.
Some of their stuff is interesting, a lot of it is trash.
PFF gave guys like Patrick Mahomes who played one fucking game better rookie rankings than Evan Engram. Some of their rankings have absolutely no logic behind them.
A lot of it is based on someone watching tape on a player and they make an uninformed judgement call on how that down went for a player.
One of the Giants former Oline guys said if you don't know the players exact assignment on a play, it's worthless.
When they have a clearly defined metric, that's usually good stuff.
Not when you consider he’s played 95% of the defensive snaps for his entire career.
For the record I like the pickup and no I don’t take PFF to heart, but maybe we should tamper our expectations just a bit.
Quote:
I remember when PFF said Antrel Rolle was like the 85th best safety in the league - and then he went on to be a big part of a Super Bowl winner here.
Some of their stuff is interesting, a lot of it is trash.
PFF gave guys like Patrick Mahomes who played one fucking game better rookie rankings than Evan Engram. Some of their rankings have absolutely no logic behind them.
A lot of it is based on someone watching tape on a player and they make an uninformed judgement call on how that down went for a player.
One of the Giants former Oline guys said if you don't know the players exact assignment on a play, it's worthless.
When they have a clearly defined metric, that's usually good stuff.
Yeah, like I said - I think they have some interesting stuff once in a while, but when they try to tell me that Alec Ogletree is like the 450th best linebacker in the league or that Patrick Mahomes had a more impactful rookie campaign than Evan Engram, I can't take it seriously.
People need to stop relying on their rankings for anything other than curiosity. They're very far off the mark on a lot of players.
We have no LBs who can cover. Didn't we break the record for most TD passes surrendered to TEs last year? This guy can cover. Great trade.
All-Pro is different than Pro Bowl.
If I made a post yesterday asking about a hypothetical trade for Ogletree, I guarantee most of you wouldn't be open to the idea of Ogletree and be parroting his PFF grades.
PFF is a good tool if you understand how the grading system works and understand its flaws. It is not the end all be all stat on a player.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf0RxnaBsxY - ( New Window )
I think he’ll be a breath of fresh air considering the trash the Giants have trottedout at the position the last 6 years.
Gettleman is really good at pro evaluation. Think about all of the FAs the Giants brought in before he left for Carolina. Not too many duds.
In 2016, Keenan Robinson graded out poorly compared to the other guys on our roster but I thought he was our best LB.
I guess his low grade is because he missed a bunch of tackles last year, but that is something he can work on. He is an impact player because of his speed and instincts at LB.
If I made a post yesterday asking about a hypothetical trade for Ogletree, I guarantee most of you wouldn't be open to the idea of Ogletree and be parroting his PFF grades.
PFF is a good tool if you understand how the grading system works and understand its flaws. It is not the end all be all stat on a player.
It's also possible that some people just put more stock in it than others.
It doesn't have to be the same people treating it as "gospel" when it's favorable and calling it worthless when it isn't.
Of course, there's always that evasive poster called "BBI" who seems to be all-encompassing...
And lets not get caught up in a 4-3 WILL or inside backer in a 3-4. There are so many variations of defenses that Bettcher's 3-4 is not the same as Wade Phillips' 3-4. Bettcher's money backer position sound awfully like a WILL backer in a 4-3.
And, finally, isn't it about time we get a player that can matchup with TEs so they don't destroy us for about the 6th time in 7 years or so?
I would think that describes a MLB?
- First off, they grade play by play on a +1 to -1 scale
- They are graded by pretty much armchair fans, and rarely audited by the vast bench of coaches they claim rate players.
- If the grader can't tell what a guy did on a play, he gets a zero
In many ways, think if a JerseyJoe watched film and graded a guy - and that boils down what PFF realistically represents.
Yet people eat it up. Good or ban ratings, they are nearly always incorrect.
I would think that describes a MLB?
Oh, sorry, it was actually the video that came on automatically after the one Eric posted.
Link - ( New Window )
That carries a little more weight.
Boom - Bottom line right there. And, he maybe the best LB on the team right now (for a 4th and a 6th).
And how do you grade a player if you don’t know the specific offensive or defensive play?
And how do you grade a player if you don’t know the specific offensive or defensive play?
Even if they do, I have a feeling a lot of their guys don't quite understand each player's responsibilities in each given snap and are incorrectly guessing on a handful of them.
I appreciate what they're trying to do - but it's severely flawed analysis.
Very good point.
Quote:
Watch or have access to the All-21?
And how do you grade a player if you don’t know the specific offensive or defensive play?
Even if they do, I have a feeling a lot of their guys don't quite understand each player's responsibilities in each given snap and are incorrectly guessing on a handful of them.
I appreciate what they're trying to do - but it's severely flawed analysis.
Exactly. Corner thinks he has safety help over the top. He lets the receiver go and...TD. No safety help because the safety fell asleep at the wheel. How does the PFF evaluator know who had what on that play?
Fantasy football?
Fantasy football?
Pro Football Focus. They basically grade out every position for every game.
Cris Collinsworth, I think, is the majority owner...
Pro Football Focus.
Cris Collinsworth, I think, is the majority owner...
I am cracking up about this. But since I have no clue about PFF I am worried you didn’t mean it as a Knock on collinsworth
Quote:
He has averaged almost 10 pass breakups per year...which is a lot for a linebacker.
Not when you consider he’s played 95% of the defensive snaps for his entire career.
For the record I like the pickup and no I don’t take PFF to heart, but maybe we should tamper our expectations just a bit.
Name 1 LB on or current roster or one that was on last years roster that is better than Ogletree? Case closed he has already improved a position of need.
its a great pickup and worth the picks they paid to make it happen
A playmaker at LB though?? this is something the Giants have not had out of the LB position in some time!
Quote:
given that Ogletree was voted All-Rookie in 2013 and second-team All-Pro in 2016.
He graded out -1.8 his rookie year and the only time he came close to that was when he beat it in 2015 when he graded out at -1.5.
For his career he is -28.3
Some seasons he graded out good in run defense and others he graded out well innpass rush. He has never graded out well in pass coverage.
He's not at his best playing inside where he needs to engage and shed blockers, he needs to run free.
His biggest issue last year was that one of his 5 technique DEs was Aaron Donald who was set free to get upfield and wasn't asked to two or 1.5 gap run lanes as a DE in this alignment usually is. Wade Phillips plays to his players' strengths and you let Donald do his thing regardless of alignment and other guys have to pick up the run slack. Ogletree is simply not a take on LB, he needs protection and should have that with the DL talent we have. He's not a world beater but he can run and chase and he's a vocal leader.
When was the last time we had a LBer that could run like that? He’s got nice speed.
Well, it WAS all 21 when Apple was in there.......
Some pissed off Ram teammates got vocal about it
Some pissed off Ram teammates got vocal about it
Gurley was the most vocally opposed - but a lot of that has to do with the fact that they played together @ UGA, I'm guessing they're pretty close.