questioning the barkley pick for the giants

Those performances cost him the Heisman, for which he was the favourite in September

He plays like a lighter back. People love that he is 233lbs but he does not play a ground and pound game.

His short yardage, between the tackle is not great.....as he tries to bounce out of a non-opening instead of powering through it....much like Sanders. Now, he can pop anything for a large gain.

His quickness and acceleration is amazing as well as his receiving skills....

I'll take that.

He can leap over people for 3 yards and a 1st down but instead get caught trying to bounce outside....

Now, defenses must put 8 in the box...as he is deadly in the open which I think works perfectly for Shummer's play action offense

you force teams to go 8 in the box to stop him then you kill them with passes to OBJ,shepard and engram when they tighten up the secondry you run barkley until you get the favourable matchups in the passing game your looking for this is his real value to them you make opposing teams pick thier poison death by a thousand cuts or risk the big play downfield

He is an amazing WR. Very smooth, great hands....and ran the 40 faster then Odell

X10. I’ll take that everyday and twice on Sundays. People saying he’s 233 but plays light, yes that true. However, he avoids the big hits and plays smart. Doesn’t have that wear and tear most backs have with his type of NCAA production.

You need to know what you are getting.

He is not Emmit Smith....who can get 3 yards when you need 2.

But he is explosive....I saw 5 long bombs for TDs, amazed that he snuck through the line and ran up the sideline as fast as he did!?!?!

Any screen can go for a TD.

Any swing pass and small hole can be broken.

But also, if you need 2 yards..he might get caught for a yard
Loss....to kill a drive

watch out.

In comment 13854490 George from PA said:

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You need to know what you are getting. He is not Emmit Smith....who can get 3 yards when you need 2. But he is explosive....I saw 5 long bombs for TDs, amazed that he snuck through the line and ran up the sideline as fast as he did!?!?! Any screen can go for a TD. Any swing pass and small hole can be broken. But also, if you need 2 yards..he might get caught for a yard Loss....to kill a drive

George, after reading your post, the reward seems to far outweigh the risk.

it looks like the Giants pick for now, and not the future, and take Barkley....

Yes, the OL will not be great....hopefully it will be better than last season, which should not be hard to accomplish....

But Barkley brings an element to the Giants, they have not had since Tiki.....and defenses will have to account for him....yes with this OL, he may get stuffed for a few series....and then bang.....he's gone.....and once this happens, then the defense has to crowd the line and it opens up the downfield passing game....

Barkley will make an OL look better than it actually is.....and when you have a RB, that has this ability, it can actually raise the level of play of your linemen.....

So if we are playing for now, we take Barkley......if we are picking for the future, it will be a QB.....

Praying New Orleans would take Rogers the RB and we end up with LT.

And really dedicated.....gym rat. Good team player....as winning is more important then stats.

Not only Penn St but he played HS by me in Whitehall PA.

And to be honest, I still do not understand how he does not excel in short yardage as his dead lift and leg strength is amazing....

In comment 13854508 Chip said:

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Praying New Orleans would take Rogers the RB and we end up with LT.

So are you praying the Browns take a QB and Berkley is there for us like LT was or are you praying they take him and we go with someone else at 2?

average 4.3 and 4.4 yards per carry behind, respectively, that crappy oline?

Even with a bad line two pedestrian backs had pretty decent yards per carry. What would Barkley do?

He cant get the important short yardage plays but can break a TD at any moment?

When has that formula delivered Super Bowls?

Sounds like a great way to put up huge numbers in November against a 1 win opponents?

You cant win the SB without facing top flight defenses that can shut down the run. There are alot of ringless HoF RBs with some god awful playoff performances.

If we sign McKinnon then Barkley won't be a draft priority.

but in modern NFL using 2nd pick of draft for RB is just insane

In comment 13854493 Ira said:

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watch out.

If we can get Nick Chubb AND significantly improve our OL, watch out.

If we can get Ronald Jones AND significantly improve our OL, watch out.

If we can get Kerryon Johnson AND significantly improve our OL, watch out.

If we can get Sony Michel AND significantly improve our OL, watch out.

If the Giants do a decent job in free agency and do a decent job in the draft regardless of the names attached AND have a healthy year instead of having key injuries up and down the roster watch out.

The #2 overall pick is not going to be the difference between a good year and a bad year, injuries are. For the most part, that's been the case for the Giants ever since Eli arrived.

Had to do with how teams game planned against Penn State to make their QB beat them. Which he did.

I’m not sure if his tendency to not run up the gut that shows up on tape was due to the OL not creating creases for him. I think that tendency can be coached as well.

He’s a threat to take it to the house on every run. I’d gladly take two long TDs in a game in which he averages 3 yards a carry otherwise.

was not a high volume carry back at PSU. Hell, I’m not sure if he’s ever had 20 carries in a game. Either that’s a good sign - he has a lot of tread on his tires - or he is a back who has diminishing returns the more touches he gets. If Jints Central wants to take pressure off Eli and run more, which is a reasonable strategy for a QB who can’t sustain a high level of play anymore, I’m not sure a one man Barkley Show is the solution....

I hate the idea of drafting a RB in the first round, let alone be the 2nd pick overall. But if we stupidly do, the prospect should be a La’Veon Bell type - a real workhorse and grinder...

into coverage to stop OBJ.

This guy forces the defense up to the line. Pick your poison.

He is also a gifted pass catcher, so he is matchup nightmare.

Hopefully, Cleveland doesn't take him. Suspect they might. Doubt he gets out of the top two.

a RB, but not so sure it will be Barkley at #2. Very deep draft for RBs, probably the deepest in many years.

is getting 3 yards on 3rd and 2, you can use a 5th round pick to get him. You need a big guy who doesn't fumble.

At #2 you are trying to get a weapon for which the defense has to game plan. You want a matchup nightmare to open up the other playmakers on the field. You want a guy who can change the game with big plays. That is Barkley.

If the line isn't fixed, 3rd and short and 4th and short will continue to be a problem no matter who is in the backfield. It's a silly reason to pass up on a game changer.

Since Eli will be here two more years, we need to help Eli, not draft a guy holding a clipboard.

In comment 13854563 RobCarpenter said:

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I’d gladly take two long TDs in a game in which he averages 3 yards a carry otherwise.

Not if the team loses 21-14 and Barkley's indecision is the cause of countless three and outs that never allow the offense to develop a rhythm or sustain drives.

In comment 13854587 Simms11 said:

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a RB, but not so sure it will be Barkley at #2. Very deep draft for RBs, probably the deepest in many years.

Correct. And it shouldn’t be Barkley; and indeed it should be a RB in the later rounds...

In comment 13854581 bw in dc said:

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was not a high volume carry back at PSU. Hell, I’m not sure if he’s ever had 20 carries in a game. Either that’s a good sign - he has a lot of tread on his tires - or he is a back who has diminishing returns the more touches he gets. If Jints Central wants to take pressure off Eli and run more, which is a reasonable strategy for a QB who can’t sustain a high level of play anymore, I’m not sure a one man Barkley Show is the solution.... I hate the idea of drafting a RB in the first round, let alone be the 2nd pick overall. But if we stupidly do, the prospect should be a La’Veon Bell type - a real workhorse and grinder...

Three times he had at least 20 carries; he had 40 touches (from scrimmage) against Iowa.

This isn't a big deal. Some games he was simply benched after Penn State got up big. This shit is so old. People look at stats as if they exist in a bubble. You have to look for context in the stats, you can't automatically assume narratives because of stats. There are reasons for certain things you see in the stats that have nothing to do with supposed ineffectiveness.

OP mentioned the Maryland game...he destroyed Maryland...He played 2 and half quarters in that game because they were up by over 40 points mid-way through the 3rd quarter. These are the things you are ignoring.

He also had many more high carry volume games in 2016, proving he can be a high-volume back. The loss of Chris Godwin to the NFL after 2016 hurt the Penn State offense. Teams loaded up on Saquon because PSU didn't really have guys like Godwin who could consistently hurt you and that were a physical mismatch one on one. So he saw a lot of stacked boxes this year, where it was clear the entire defensive gameplan was to shut him down, and he still exceeded his yards from scrimmage total last year because he simply did a lot more damage as a receiver this year than he did last year.

Short answer is stop with the nonsense and hand-wringing. Bringing up games like Maryland and Indiana as if they were bad games reveals you don't actually have a clue. Indiana the guy has over 100 yards from scrimmage, throws for a TD, and returns a 98 yard kick return for a TD. I mean, that's a spectacular game that is revealing he is an all-around weapon that plays the RB position. Oh no, he only had 47 yards rushing against Georgia State...AND 142 receiving yards! In a game he BARELY played in. I mean, they won that Georgia State game 56-0. He played about 1 half of football. You really think GEORGIA STATE stopped him? No. I mean damn. He's a football player, and a damn great one.

In comment 13854595 Milton said:

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In comment 13854563 RobCarpenter said: Quote: I’d gladly take two long TDs in a game in which he averages 3 yards a carry otherwise. Not if the team loses 21-14 and Barkley's indecision is the cause of countless three and outs that never allow the offense to develop a rhythm or sustain drives.

If the QB doesn’t throw any TD passes that’s a bigger problem.

and see subpar performances. But unless you see the circumstances behind those performances you dont have an understanding of the whole picture.

The question is how does that player translate to the NFL and how will the Giants utilize that player IF he is drafted.

I would think that Barkley would be utilized far better by Pat Shurmur and having additional threats on offense like OBJ, Shep and Engram will limit defenses stacking to just stop him, which I am sure happened a lot at Penn State.

There are a few 20+ carry games (mostly low 20s), granted, but they are more the exception than the rule for Barkley. The last 2 years he’s been in the middle to high teens with carries..And I get that PSU had games where they protected Barkley because they were in blow-out mode.

But there is something to be said for being conditioned to handle a high number of carries - like Kerryon Johnson or Rashaad Perry - against quality competition. Not saying Barkley can’t, but it’s not clear cut. And catching the ball in space is not the same as getting a true carry where the dlinemen come into play more and there is less space...

you can pretty much eliminate most of the top 50 players in this draft. Stats from one game tell you virtually nothing alone.

Josh Rosen completed less than 60% of his passes and threw 3 picks and no TDs in a losing effort against an Arizona defense that can generously be called terrible. If you want to knock Barkley for what he did against Rutgers, I assume you would also say the Giants should stay away from Rosen for a similar performance against a similar team?

without the drama. He's a game-changer, a perpetual threat, eminently versatile -- someone against whom defenses need to game-plan specifically. The question (as with Beckham) is how valuable he is compared to the alternatives. With OBJ, it's a matter of money, and with Barkley it's a matter of other picks. As a fan with limited information, I can only hope that DG & Co. make the best calls possible, knowing you can't see into the future.

In comment 13854642 bw in dc said:

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There are a few 20+ carry games (mostly low 20s), granted, but they are more the exception than the rule for Barkley. The last 2 years he’s been in the middle to high teens with carries..And I get that PSU had games where they protected Barkley because they were in blow-out mode. But there is something to be said for being conditioned to handle a high number of carries - like Kerryon Johnson or Rashaad Perry - against quality competition. Not saying Barkley can’t, but it’s not clear cut. And catching the ball in space is not the same as getting a true carry where the dlinemen come into play more and there is less space...

2016 he had 7 games with 20 or more carries. He had less carries this year because teams were trying to take him away, so PSU is naturally going to try and take what the defense gives them. He can handle a big workload, he's done it in the past, he has a thick lower half (and upper half), and he has been very durable.

Kerryon Johnson getting a lot of carries doesn't make him a great back. He's a good running back. Would you rather have LaDainian Tomlinson or Eddie George?

Twice last year Barkley carried the ball more than 30 times.

that I recall seeing a video somewhere where the analyst was discussing Barkely and he made it a point to point out something to the effect of that Barkley's conditioning is other-wordly (my words, not his). He stated that he has consistently shown to be able to carry a huge load in the games where he was given it and not only doesn't fade but got stronger later in the game. This isn't even mentioning his outrageous workout regime and the fact that someone just posted on here how he doesn't intend to chill the rest of this off-season... even after his crazy Combine performance he said he still will DEMAND to get time to be able to workout throughout this process.

IMO, every single negative attributed to Barkley is being nitpicky. He's the total package and using things such as 'he's not a great short yardage back' (the man's 230+ pounds and can dead lift a truck... so it's not matter of him not having the talent of ability to do it, maybe his line played a part in some of those runs where he didn't get the first down?) and 'he hasn't shown he can carry a large load' (which has already been debunked above) appears to be some folks parroting things they've heard elsewhere.

I 'get' the argument about picking a RB at #2... especially with this being such a deep draft when it comes to that position. BUT... Barkley's not just the best RB in the draft... he's the best PLAYER. If the draft is supposedly about acquiring the best talent... why wouldn't you draft the most talented player in the draft... especially when the only other player who comes even close to him in talent is a Guard?

has sub par games. If you're going to look at the games where a prospect didn't play that well, nobody would ever get drafted high. I'm sure Andrew Luck had some shitty games at Stanford. Calvin Johnson probably had some games where he disappeared.

because not every position is valued the same, nor should it. Does the best player make as much as even an average QB? No, because they aren't valued the same.

available at 2 there's absolutely zero chance Gettleman is going to pass.

at 2 you think to yourself "can this guy be a face of a franchise/game changing/all pro type year over year player"...the answer is yes for Barkley and that's really not even a question that he can be that type of guy.

Does the best TE make as much as the best WR? Each position is valued differently.

In comment 13854755 ryanmkeane said:

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available at 2 there's absolutely zero chance Gettleman is going to pass.

I love posts like this. Are you privy to information that even the most clued in people aren't privy to?

no..definitely not..just my opinion based on how I see this process coming along for the Giants

it's your opinion. I think the Giants were always going to take a QB and everything they have done from last season when Mara announced it until now has reinforced that thought. I'm not sure Barkley's combine changed anything because they already knew how good he is.

I still think the Giants plan on taking a QB.

In comment 13854778 Keith said:

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it's your opinion. I think the Giants were always going to take a QB and everything they have done from last season when Mara announced it until now has reinforced that thought. I'm not sure Barkley's combine changed anything because they already knew how good he is. I still think the Giants plan on taking a QB.

When did Mara announce they were taking a QB? I honestly had never heard him say that. I haven't been as up on 'Giants news' as I usually am over the past several months so I might've missed it.

During the Eli drama...
Link - ( New Window )

but he made it clear that it should be the focus of the scouts.

In comment 13854721 allstarjim said:

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Kerryon Johnson getting a lot of carries doesn't make him a great back. He's a good running back. Would you rather have LaDainian Tomlinson or Eddie George?

Johnson is a great college RB. Brilliant. Whether he becomes a great RB in the NFL remains to be seen. But I am a big fan and think he has the tools.

If you are trying to compare KJ to EG I think you've picked the wrong RB from the past. He's much lighter than EG, but he's quicker and faster. In my eye, KJ is more like Tiki Barber, or maybe even a Le'Veon Bell-lite. He's going to be a real threat in the passing game...

But to your question directly - LT... ;)

In comment 13854794 Keith said:

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but he made it clear that it should be the focus of the scouts.

Thanks for the link.

IMO, what he... or anyone for that matter... says in the middle of last season doesn't mean much for what's going to actually happen in late April. He didn't even know who his GM and new HC were going to be at that point. Things change. I'm not discounting that it's very possible we pick a QB at #2... but IMO it should only be if Barkley's been picked at #1. Guess we'll see!

Barkley and Gallman.