This roster is so thin that getting rid of him and going for the full rebuild would be my preference. I love Eli, but if he waived his no trade clause I'd trade him, because this team is quite a ways from a SB contender, and I'd prefer to suffer for a few more years with the hope that we could draft high again next year and rebuild the whole roster.
We'd recoup about $10M this year against the cap (but have $12M in dead cap costs) and would have $17M more cap space next offseason.
Eli is obviously not part of our future, so IMO it would be time to cut bait if he'd be willing to waive the no trade and we found a team interested in him.
(I know this has been beaten to death, but I was looking over the roster again, and I can't identify any other players who might be possible trade bait given their cap hits and/or talent level. We really are thin!)
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In comment 13857873 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13857864 yatqb said:
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and then coach him up. But if you don't get a new QB, Eli sure isn't gonna be the savior over the long haul, so what do you do then?
No. You're supposed to not even try and never draft another QB again in memory of Eli Manning.
who said to never draft a qb?
Who said not to? There are plenty of people on this very board saying not to..
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In comment 13857884 Bill L said:
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In comment 13857873 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13857864 yatqb said:
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and then coach him up. But if you don't get a new QB, Eli sure isn't gonna be the savior over the long haul, so what do you do then?
No. You're supposed to not even try and never draft another QB again in memory of Eli Manning.
who said to never draft a qb?
Who said not to? There are plenty of people on this very board saying not to..
to true at all. People are saying use the #2 for something different. Not to never draft a QB. Heck, even the goats are looking at the Harvard guy. Unlikely for at #2
Not all, but some aren't too far away from that opinion. I agree with others in here (and on here) that I'd rather rebuild for the next decade rather than go year by year just because Eli is in the latter stages of his career. Life for the Giants does exist past Eli Manning (or anyother great Giant in Giants history).
But we do have the opportunity with that window to get the best *talent* each year, so either we transition to a better an than this group (by draft or FA) or build the team up to an extent where even a decent QB can be successful. And if, with Eli, we actually win a ton because of bringing in the best talent, while apparently many here will gnash their teeth, I for sure won’t complain.
But we do have the opportunity with that window to get the best *talent* each year, so either we transition to a better an than this group (by draft or FA) or build the team up to an extent where even a decent QB can be successful. And if, with Eli, we actually win a ton because of bringing in the best talent, while apparently many here will gnash their teeth, I for sure won’t complain.
They've been attempting to do this for the last 6 years and it's netted the Giants exactly one playoff berth and elimination in the first round. But if people love the same exactly failing approach every year, so be it.
Another “we let him down”!!!! Poor Eli!!!! And this “we had a dynasty in the making” delusion is as laughable as that “in 2011 Eli was the reigning best QB on earth” statement.
Is it not very very painfully obvious by now that, instead of “a dynasty in the making”, the last 15 year’s of Giants football has been consistently mediocre — a grand total of 8 games above .500 over Eli’s entire career — highlighted by a total of about 8 weeks in which the team managed to catch lightning in a bottle and bring home two two trophies.
Nobody can question the legitimacy of the two titles in the Eli era, but judging from the other 14.5 years of his career besides those 8 playoff weeks, it’s also safe and no shame to conclude that the number one contributor was luck.
Nobody can question the legitimacy of the two titles in the Eli era, but judging from the other 14.5 years of his career besides those 8 playoff weeks, it’s also safe and no shame to conclude that the number one contributor was luck.
It brings a tear to my eye reading your commentary. One of the few who really gets it. Don’t let the bastards grind you down!
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id argue that we can’t dismiss the new sheriff in town aspect of this.
That's fine. But new sheriff or not, he can't defeat Father Time re: Eli.
So no matter what we do this year, the OL will suck? Well, alrighty then.
We've been saying all of this for the past 6 seasons. Hell, alot of people advocting for Eli didn't even start to be critical of Reese up until this past season, very conveniently.
Where it gets interesting is next year, especially if you believe (like I do) that the Giants are capable of having a successful 2018 season. How successful that season is will impact what happens with Eli. It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that drafting Rosen with the #2 overall pick means Eli has only one year left with the team.
If things are clicking, the Giants are winning, and Super Bowl aspirations are realistic, I have no problem with continuing with Eli in 2019 and having Rosen and Webb spend another year on the bench. But there's also something very, very attractive about shedding the $17M he is due 2019 (in salary and bonus money) and handing the keys to Rosen regardless of what kind of season Eli and the Giants have in 2018.
It's worth paying attention to what happens with Bortles in Jacksonville. He is due $16M in salary in 2019, so if he were to have a bad year, the Jaguars might see the value in dumping him and adding Eli via trade (so they subtract $16M and add $17M). Unfortunately Eli's no-trade clause puts a huge crimp in this plan. If he and the Jaguars know that short of a trade, the Giants will be forced to release him, why agree to a trade?
But the Giants wouldn't be altogether without leverage under this circumstance, especially if it is believed by Eli and Coughlin that the Giants are fully prepared to go into the 2019 with Eli as the starter (and that would only be the case if Eli and the Giants had a good year) and the Jags would have to be offering Eli an extension (otherwise Eli would be content to play out his contract with the Giants). A long shot? Definitely. But it's possible. Just barely.
p.s.--Credit to Tom Condon for putting together a contract that leaves the Giants with very little leverage to trade Eli. The no-trade clause alone isn't an impossible hurdle, but coupled it with a $5M roster bonus due just three days into the new league year, it leaves the Giants with only the tiniest of leverage to pull off a trade.
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Playing Eli because he may be the best QB on the roster next year
Jimmy Googs : 1:48 pm : link : reply
is simply wasting time. Every game he starts and snap he takes just "punts" the overall betterment of the team down the road further and further. So the team around the QB should try to develop but don't touch that position?
It isn't wasting time to groom a successor. Throwing a rookie to the wolves will often fail as much as it succeeds, and even recent examples are all over the board. Guys like Wentz and Prescott succeeded. Kizer, Brissett, Goff, and Huntley failed. It would be like saying having Kurt Warner taking snaps punted the overall development of the team, when the exact opposite impact happened.
It really seems that some posters believe that Eli isn't just mediocre, but one of the worst QB's in the league. That's what this boils down to. And believing that would indicate Eli was the reason the team failed and not a system that was complete shit. Based on what a lot of great football analysts have said, I'll believe Mac's system blew. On many levels.
Its my view and that doesn't make it false so careful with your comments please. I can easily go off how shortsighted your comments are as to how to groom QBs that don't get snaps or gametime or anything.
Bottom line is maturation of the QB and the coaches development of that player require him to play...case closed. Every game that he does not, pushes that process further down the line. I can find a hundred examples that fit into that bell curve while you use examples that fit the edges (and btw - how is Goff a failure??)
And if throwing somebody to the wolves succeeds as much as you say it fails, then lets move on with someone else as you saw what it is doing to Eli.
And if Giant games are going to be compared to playing Offense against wolves, what the hell are we doing letting a 38 year old guy continue to try and compete against that with his declining skills, eyes dropping toward a rush and no mobility? Eli has shown he cannot lift that Offense up for the past several years.
And maybe some posters need to start realizing Eli isn't even mediocre anymore, and that he is dropping into the bottom half of the league at his position. And even if you want to argue mediocre...boy, that's quite the bar we set debating over him starting for our team...
But we do have the opportunity with that window to get the best *talent* each year, so either we transition to a better an than this group (by draft or FA) or build the team up to an extent where even a decent QB can be successful. And if, with Eli, we actually win a ton because of bringing in the best talent, while apparently many here will gnash their teeth, I for sure won’t complain.
And what makes you think we can win a ton by bringing in talent around Eli?
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And I know many here resent the hell out of that.
But we do have the opportunity with that window to get the best *talent* each year, so either we transition to a better an than this group (by draft or FA) or build the team up to an extent where even a decent QB can be successful. And if, with Eli, we actually win a ton because of bringing in the best talent, while apparently many here will gnash their teeth, I for sure won’t complain.
And what makes you think we can win a ton by bringing in talent around Eli?
I’m not saying don’t move on. I’m saying that this ain’t the crop to do it with*because* you have (maybe not depending on clevelands first choice) a unique opportunity its to get a superstar. I also think that we committed to Eli for two years and can get what we pass on this year within the next two years (quality-wise) so use that opportunity to get all the other pieces optimized first.
You need to credit Eli himself as much as anyone else for this wonderful contract. Wonderful, in terms of both number and structure. Wonderful, from Eli’s perspective. Remember Condon structured Peyton’s last contract with the Colts similarly to give him the unconditional freedom he wanted.
Let me repeat, starting from their first day in the NFL which now spans two full decades, every action the Manning brother took was to maximize their own personal interest. Nothing wrong with it at all, and often times — but not always, especially toward the end of one’s career — their own interests aligned with the tean’s interests and delighted us fans. We fans should never ever confuse Mannings’s top priority in their decision-making.
The roster bonus is of very little consequence as it relates to a barrier to a trade (and certainly nothing close the absolute block that a NTC creates). Just look at how many trades have already been agreed to, and the league year doesn't begin for another four days. If Eli were willing (or wanting) to be traded, the roster bonus presents absolutely no obstacle at all - none.
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p.s.--Credit to Tom Condon for putting together a contract that leaves the Giants with very little leverage to trade Eli. The no-trade clause alone isn't an impossible hurdle, but coupled it with a $5M roster bonus due just three days into the new league year, it leaves the Giants with only the tiniest of leverage to pull off a trade.
You need to credit Eli himself as much as anyone else for this wonderful contract. Wonderful, in terms of both number and structure. Wonderful, from Eli’s perspective. Remember Condon structured Peyton’s last contract with the Colts similarly to give him the unconditional freedom he wanted.
Let me repeat, starting from their first day in the NFL which now spans two full decades, every action the Manning brother took was to maximize their own personal interest. Nothing wrong with it at all, and often times — but not always, especially toward the end of one’s career — their own interests aligned with the tean’s interests and delighted us fans. We fans should never ever confuse Mannings’s top priority in their decision-making.
It's not a coincidence that the Manning brothers are #1 and #2 in career NFL earnings. Eli's already #2 and will surpass Peyton for the top spot next season.
unlikely...time to turn over the position
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p.s.--Credit to Tom Condon for putting together a contract that leaves the Giants with very little leverage to trade Eli. The no-trade clause alone isn't an impossible hurdle, but coupled it with a $5M roster bonus due just three days into the new league year, it leaves the Giants with only the tiniest of leverage to pull off a trade.
The roster bonus is of very little consequence as it relates to a barrier to a trade (and certainly nothing close the absolute block that a NTC creates).
unlikely...time to turn over the position
Yup. Well put Jimmy.
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In comment 13857945 Milton said:
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p.s.--Credit to Tom Condon for putting together a contract that leaves the Giants with very little leverage to trade Eli. The no-trade clause alone isn't an impossible hurdle, but coupled it with a $5M roster bonus due just three days into the new league year, it leaves the Giants with only the tiniest of leverage to pull off a trade.
The roster bonus is of very little consequence as it relates to a barrier to a trade (and certainly nothing close the absolute block that a NTC creates).
The roster bonus forces the Giants to make a decision on Eli by the third day of the league year, so it removes an important piece of leverage in the form of time. If the $17M due Eli was all salary, the Giants could hold onto him all the way up until September before releasing him. Any team that desires his services is surely going to want him sooner rather than later.
I'll repeat - look at how many trades have been agreed to before the league year even started. The only thing it removes is the late preseason injury-inspired trade (a la Sam Bradford to the Vikings in 2016). But Eli's NTC already accomplishes that - if he's going to waive it, it would almost certainly be conditional with very limited destinations that he'd reserve the right to approve.
The roster bonus creates absolutely zero incremental obstacle to trading Eli. None.
The roster bonus creates absolutely zero incremental obstacle to trading Eli. None.
Of course it’s not a coincident. When you are #1 and #2 in the all-time list of something enviable in the world of professional sports, it could not possibly have happened by accident, it could not possibly have happened with the kind of “I don’t really worry about it. I just do my job on the field and those things will take care of themselves” laidback attitude, even if he sincerely talked/acted that way when the camera was on.
It happened, only because the player who achieved it fiercely wanted it to happen, never missing an opportunity to get more, and consistently over a long 15, 20-year periods. That is true for the #1 all-time passer, all-time rusher, all-time playoff winner, and course in Manning brothers’s case, the all-time #1 and #2 money-earners.
I'm not sure how that can be the case. When he leaves, they will need a quarterback.
The quarterback that's going to be appealing to you, the kind of QB that you've said isn't there this season, that player doesn't fall outside of the top five. If you're going to go through all the process of making the team better when you know your current QB is already pushing 40, what you will end up with is a decent team that doesn't have a QB and won't be in a position to draft the one that satisfies your impression of what a top QB should appear to be.
And even that plan assumes there's a top quarterback coming down the pipeline. That isn't a given. There isn't one available every year.
The alternative is to try to piece things together by signing a veteran free agent to a massive deal, and available veteran quarterbacks look like Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jake Delhomme and Kirk Cousins.
Surely you jest. Bridgewater has a very underwhelming arm which eliminates some key throws. He pushes the ball more than he throws it.
Then there is the issue of him coming off spaghetti knee surgery. He truly one hit away from becoming a college assistant coach. And he wasn’t mobile in the first place...
I can’t think of a QB less designed for what we need...
Whoa...that's nuts.
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Whoa...that's nuts.
Nor is it a plan...more like a prayer.
28 games started, 28 touchdowns, 22 INTs, and a devastating knee injury that scared off the team that drafted him and kept him out of football for two seasons. It's weird that you'd be okay with this.
Lot a of assumptions without proof.
Lot a of assumptions without proof.
Of course it does. What else do you need to see with Eli to give you pause...
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Rebuilding starts with Webb or number 2pick.
Lot a of assumptions without proof.
Of course it does. What else do you need to see with Eli to give you pause...
A healthy and performing cast. A competent coaching staff.
Again take a qb 2. Let Eli start. If team Ian doing well, keep him in there. If we go 0-4 or 1-5, pull him.
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In comment 13858211 dep026 said:
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Rebuilding starts with Webb or number 2pick.
Lot a of assumptions without proof.
Of course it does. What else do you need to see with Eli to give you pause...
A healthy and performing cast. A competent coaching staff.
Again take a qb 2. Let Eli start. If team Ian doing well, keep him in there. If we go 0-4 or 1-5, pull him.
Can't argue with that concept. Other than I expect it too happen therefore I would preempt it with a change before it happens...
2. Injuries early on
3. Eli didnt play well to start
4. His supporting cast was one of the worst in the league.
5. We were clearly outcoached.
Now I know a lot of people wanted Webb, but he was clearly not ready. Throwing him into the fire when he was not NFL ready with a poor team is not the answer. Actually, it is more detrimental. If you look at his workout videos with his trainer, you still see a lot of flaws with footwork. Not getting deep enough on drops, gather step on timing routes, high throws, etc.... he was basically relearning the position.
NBow if the Giants think he is the goods, then dont take a QB at 2 and take Nelson. If Eli starts off slow, then put Webb in there.
There was no harm playing Eli almost every game last year. And there will be no harm at least starting him next year. We all know father time is comign to an end, but he deserves the chance going in for one last shot with good coaching and a healthy team.
The offense sucked in 2016.....It was an illusion with OBj taking short passes to the house....
last season, the offense was decimated....Eli either had to hold onto the ball too long, or force throws for the same reason....no one could get open....
But let's face it, at this point in time, Eli is only as good as the line in front of him....it will take a miracle for this OL to come together in a short time....
The offense sucked in 2016.....It was an illusion with OBj taking short passes to the house....
last season, the offense was decimated....Eli either had to hold onto the ball too long, or force throws for the same reason....no one could get open....
But let's face it, at this point in time, Eli is only as good as the line in front of him....it will take a miracle for this OL to come together in a short time....