I’m having a debate on one of my Facebook groups on who the player was in their prime. I’m saying Jeter, and people are saying that I’m a Yankee homer. Ichiro was a great player, but he was a singles hitter. He only had 5 season with an over 800 OPS. Jeter also walked a ton more. Need your help here.
offensively they're similar, maybe even give Jeter a slight edge - good debate, but defensively Ichiro was better, and Ichiro was a better baserunner.
If Ichiro played his whole career in MLB he might have broken a ton of records, but he didn't so if you just evaluate MLB careers it's Jeter.
but I do kind of think Ichiro was a better all around player, though hard to defend it with just his MLB career.
That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.
OPS+ Jeter 115 Ichiro 107
WAR Jeter 72 Ichiro 60
Jeter as a SS has Ichiro a RF beat in pretty much every offensive stat. Ichiro was the better defender but Jeter was good enough until he got older.
I also don't agree that if Ichiro played his entire career in MLB he'd have a big advantage over Jeter offensively. Jeter hit 260 HR's. Ichiro hit 117. Ichiro in his best days had no power at all. I loved watching him play but he wasn't Jeter.
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Suzuki is like Rivers
That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.
I thought I was being kind to Jeter.
I’m not seeing the comparison at all.
I also don't agree that if Ichiro played his entire career in MLB he'd have a big advantage over Jeter offensively. Jeter hit 260 HR's. Ichiro hit 117. Ichiro in his best days had no power at all. I loved watching him play but he wasn't Jeter.
Really!!!! Willie Mays, Ricky Henderson,Maury Wills even Jose Reyes in his prime
hell mays even stole home and caused balks.
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In comment 13857971 SHO'NUFF said:
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Suzuki is like Rivers
That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.
I thought I was being kind to Jeter.
Let's see... you compared:
Player A) 5x WS/SB champion, 7x league/conference champ, 14x All-Star, Rookie of the Year, reached playoffs 16x in 19 seasons
Player B) 2x WS/SB champion, 2x league/conference champ, 4x All-Star, reached playoffs 6x in 14 seasons
And you thought you were being kind to Player A by comparing him to Player B?
Jeter has a 12 WAR advantage and Ichiro didn't play in MLB until he was 27.
If Ichiro played his entire career in MLB it's almost guaranteed he's the higher WAR player.
If you believe WAR is the best way to evaluate best my initial post is spot-on.
forgetting for a minute that Jeter is the best baserunner in the history of baseball (LOL).
Ellsbury did it last year, I believe. If not, the year before.
As much as I love Jeter I feel Ichiro is getting undervalued here. Guy was IMPOSSIBLE to get out for a good 5 year stretch and he played incredible defense. Definitely two of the greatest of that generation though. What a treat to grow up having watched those guys.
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In comment 13857987 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13857971 SHO'NUFF said:
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Suzuki is like Rivers
That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.
I thought I was being kind to Jeter.
Let's see... you compared:
Player A) 5x WS/SB champion, 7x league/conference champ, 14x All-Star, Rookie of the Year, reached playoffs 16x in 19 seasons
Player B) 2x WS/SB champion, 2x league/conference champ, 4x All-Star, reached playoffs 6x in 14 seasons
And you thought you were being kind to Player A by comparing him to Player B?
Football is a lot tougher and should be graded on a curve. But I'll give Jeter the nod for slaying all that pootang.
I think if Ichro had started his career here, it would be him. Just look what he did his first year in MLB. Guy hit .350, stole 56 bases, led the league in hits, won the MVP, ROY and was a gold glover.
But if we're going by MLB careers only, I'd say Jeter. He had an incredible run. 20 fucking years and the guy was a career .310 hitter.
It's actually closer than people probably think, IMO - but yeah, I'd say Jeter.
I'll pile on that I don't understand the Eli and rivers analogy at all. It's strikingly incompetent actually.
Suzuki - better violin player
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In comment 13858034 SHO'NUFF said:
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In comment 13857987 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13857971 SHO'NUFF said:
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Suzuki is like Rivers
That's being incredibly kind to Eli. It's not meant as an insult to Eli at all when I say this: Eli is not on Jeter's level.
I thought I was being kind to Jeter.
Let's see... you compared:
Player A) 5x WS/SB champion, 7x league/conference champ, 14x All-Star, Rookie of the Year, reached playoffs 16x in 19 seasons
Player B) 2x WS/SB champion, 2x league/conference champ, 4x All-Star, reached playoffs 6x in 14 seasons
And you thought you were being kind to Player A by comparing him to Player B?
Football is a lot tougher and should be graded on a curve. But I'll give Jeter the nod for slaying all that pootang.
If baseball is easier, it's also easier for Jeter's opponents. If football is tougher, it's also tougher for Eli's opponents. There is no curve. It was a sh*tty analogy.
Jeter 377 obp 817 ops
It’s not even close guys. If you had to choose one player to build around you take Jeter every single time without a moment’s hesitation.
Jeter 377 obp 817 ops
It’s not even close guys. If you had to choose one player to build around you take Jeter every single time without a moment’s hesitation.
So the whole WAR formula is heresy and OBP/OPS are the true measure of a baseball players value.
if the OP intent was to validate their assumption then posting this question on a NY Giants fan where the majority of people are Yankees fans then mission accomplished, but if you want unbiased opinions, probably not the place.
Maybe check the Seattle Seahawks message board and see what their fans think as sort of an equal validation.
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Ichiro 355 obp 759 ops
Jeter 377 obp 817 ops
It’s not even close guys. If you had to choose one player to build around you take Jeter every single time without a moment’s hesitation.
So the whole WAR formula is heresy and OBP/OPS are the true measure of a baseball players value.
if the OP intent was to validate their assumption then posting this question on a NY Giants fan where the majority of people are Yankees fans then mission accomplished, but if you want unbiased opinions, probably not the place.
Maybe check the Seattle Seahawks message board and see what their fans think as sort of an equal validation.
I wasn’t looking for validation at all. People say Jeter’s overrated all the time and that’s fine. But people need to realize that Ichiro wasn’t as good as people make it seem. 83% of his hits were singles. He also didn’t walk much at all. And for all his speed, he didn’t score as many runs as he should have.
So either you believe WAR is the best way to evaluate/compare two players or you don't.
if you don't explain why, but if you don't you're left with 100% subjective non-quantifiable opinionated intangibles like "Jeter made players around him better" or "he's the best base runner in MLB history".
If you allow WAR to handle the evaluation you're back to my original post.
Jeter was the better MLB overall player, but when you consider Ichiro made his MLB debut at 27 after playing in Japan he probably would have wound up better than Jeter.
Those are the unemotional, unbiased facts.
If you stick to their MLB careers, Jeter gets the nod, if you look at total professional careers, you can certainly make a case for Ichiro, everything else is opinion, bias, and noise.
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Ichiro 355 obp 759 ops
Jeter 377 obp 817 ops
It’s not even close guys. If you had to choose one player to build around you take Jeter every single time without a moment’s hesitation.
So the whole WAR formula is heresy and OBP/OPS are the true measure of a baseball players value.
if the OP intent was to validate their assumption then posting this question on a NY Giants fan where the majority of people are Yankees fans then mission accomplished, but if you want unbiased opinions, probably not the place.
Maybe check the Seattle Seahawks message board and see what their fans think as sort of an equal validation.
Jeter got on base more frequently. Nearly double the amount of rbis. And more than double the hrs. And he played SHORTSTOP while Ichiro played a slugger’s position in right field.
It’s not even close. I don’t care what a Seattle fan would say. Not even close.
Some say he’s Overrated? Name me the shortstops that had better overall careers?
Jeter will he remembered as one of the best shortstops to ever play the game. I don’t mean defensively I mean overall. The guy had as close to a perfect career as possible.
it's widely accepted as a player's value.
either you accept WAR is the measure of a player's value or you don't, it sounds like you don't.
In which case you are left with your opinion which is fine, but recognize it as an opinion.
So either you believe WAR is the best way to evaluate/compare two players or you don't.
if you don't explain why, but if you don't you're left with 100% subjective non-quantifiable opinionated intangibles like "Jeter made players around him better" or "he's the best base runner in MLB history".
If you allow WAR to handle the evaluation you're back to my original post.
Jeter was the better MLB overall player, but when you consider Ichiro made his MLB debut at 27 after playing in Japan he probably would have wound up better than Jeter.
Those are the unemotional, unbiased facts.
If you stick to their MLB careers, Jeter gets the nod, if you look at total professional careers, you can certainly make a case for Ichiro, everything else is opinion, bias, and noise.
That’s a fair point. Thanks for the input.
Here's what Bill James had to say about WAR last year:
Putting WAR in Context: A Response to Bill James - ( New Window )
it's widely accepted as a player's value.
either you accept WAR is the measure of a player's value or you don't, it sounds like you don't.
In which case you are left with your opinion which is fine, but recognize it as an opinion.
Position neutral is exactly why I can’t take war too seriously. It’s a useful metric but not the end all be all.
Who was a better player? Amani Toomer or Rob Gronkowski? After all, Toomer caught more balls for more yards in his career....
Position plays a huge part in these things...
it's widely accepted as a player's value.
either you accept WAR is the measure of a player's value or you don't, it sounds like you don't.
In which case you are left with your opinion which is fine, but recognize it as an opinion.
I’d be willing to bet that if you asked ten GMs who they take they all say Jeter. He put up better numbers from a tougher position.
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I suggest you look it up and see the intent, it's position neutral, park neutral, etc.
it's widely accepted as a player's value.
either you accept WAR is the measure of a player's value or you don't, it sounds like you don't.
In which case you are left with your opinion which is fine, but recognize it as an opinion.
Position neutral is exactly why I can’t take war too seriously. It’s a useful metric but not the end all be all.
Who was a better player? Amani Toomer or Rob Gronkowski? After all, Toomer caught more balls for more yards in his career....
Position plays a huge part in these things...
It sounds like you're confusing position-neutral with position-agnostic.
This is it
You could get Suzuki's production in RF far more easily than Jeter's at SS. So if you want to build a team, take Jeter every time