I'm wondering now if maybe I wouldn't throw the remote if Giants take QB Allen at #2? He might have the highest ceiling of any of the QBs. And maybe the big factor is IF Shurmur really is the QB Whisperer...I know the flaws and doubts, but if you're equipped to deal, aren't you "supposed" to take the QB with the greatest potential?
As far as Allen goes, his arm strength and mobility is really appealing to me. His arm in the winds of the Meadowlands can be a plus.
Darnold
Rosen
Mayfield
Allen
Says who? I believe there is about a 90% chance he is drafted in the top 4
p.s.--Pat Shurmur is not a magician. I'm guessing the QB he would most like to coach is the one he gets to teach Calculus, not the one who still needs to learn Algebra.
1. We just hired one of the top QB coaches and developers in the league. If Allen has the goods, Shurmur is one of the better options to have in terms of molding him. Gettleman may be interested in a guy like Allen after having Cam Newton for all those years in Carolina. They have some similarities to their games.
2. Eli can start for the next 1 or 2 seasons while the Giants develop Allen. Eli is so important to this franchise and the fan base. I would love to see his career end in a smooth way. He's the perfect mentor and can hand the reigns over to Allen in 2020. It's unlikely to happen this smoothly, but I'd prefer this to Eli getting replaced mid-season and never playing for the Giants again.
3. I can picture this guy wearing blue on Sundays. He is big and strong. He's got humble beginnings and he seems to put out a calm and composed demeanor when dealing with the media. Watching his highlights, I think there is a little bit of fire inside of him too. I think if he succeeds at the next level, he will be the most likable of this crop of QB prospects.
Ultimately, I want the QB who will help lead this franchise for the next decade, whoever that may be. But these are just a few of the small variables that won't have me throwing the remote if we decide to draft him.
p.s.--Pat Shurmur is not a magician. I'm guessing the QB he would most like to coach is the one he gets to teach Calculus, not the one who still needs to learn Algebra.
+1 no Coach can teach accuracy enough to make a massive improvement.. I don't see the cieling being higher for Allen vs Rosen.. Josh's tape is pretty bad and you can't simply say because he looked good in shorts without defense out there that he has the skills.. the only skills he has is throwing far and fast.. thats not a QB.. a QB is a passer not a thrower..
It would be incredibly foolish and arrogant of me to assume that I knew more that Gettleman, Shurmur and Shula about who was the best (remaining) QB at 2...just because I prefer Rosen.
It would however be "throw the remote time" for me if the Giants decided to pass on a QB for another position at 2, because I feel that they would be building for the short term and not looking out for the team's best long-term interest.
But as far as WHICH QB would be the best choice, I'm more than content to leave that to the QB evaluation experts on the Giants, who have access to game tape, interviews, Wonderlic scores, scouting reports and medicals that I'll never have.
He has the highest ceiling of the QBs in this draft, but also the lowest floor. I don't expect he will be the pick, but I will be pretty happy if he is.
He has the highest ceiling of the QBs in this draft, but also the lowest floor. I don't expect he will be the pick, but I will be pretty happy if he is.
I agree. That is the same perception I will take if the Giants select Allen at #2. I just don't think he is the #1 choice amongst the Giants staff, regarding QBs.
On another note, I am bemused by those who talk about Darnold as an athletic QB when Rosen was his equal or better at the combine, and Darnold chose not to throw because he would look inferior in terms of arm talent to Rosen, Allen and maybe Mayfield. I am not sold on Darnold. But, again, I have to trust Shurmur, DG and Shula to get it right.
"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."
Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.
If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.
Rather Rosen or Dave Te's guy, Kyle Lauletta in the second.
"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."
Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.
If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.
Rather Rosen or Dave Te's guy, Kyle Lauletta in the second.
I don't get the Allen v Webb comparison at all. Allen is so much more physically gifted than Webb it is silly. If you think they are similar in arm strength or mobility, I'd only say that there are not likely many people who would agree with you.
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But a talking head on ESPN who was a former NFL front office guy (can't remember which one) attributed this quote to noted QB guru Gruden...
"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."
Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.
If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.
What if his top 15 plays are all broken plays?
Not sure what you define as a "broken play" or for that matter what your point is...
But if you're defining a broken play as one where the WRs weren't initially open and Allen scrambled around for a while until coverage broke down and then threw the ball downfield for a 60 yrd TD...I would think most teams would view that as a great accomplishment by a QB.
And if he did it 15 times...even better!
Here's why I'll be surprised if DG drafts Allen:
1) It's Gettelman's very first pick as GM of the Giants. Allen is a huge gamble. Too huge a gamble for a new GM's very first pick, I think. If Allen busts, DG's whole regime starts under a cloud that will linger for years. Though the flip side is, if Allen turns into a star, DG's a hero.
2) The team needs immediate help. Nobody seems to think Allen would get on the field in 2018. How often is the #2 pick in the draft unable to contribute as a rookie? Sure, there are "project" QBs. At #2 overall? People point to Aaron Rodgers as an example of a guy who sat for years and learned and turned into a star, but he wasn't a top-10 pick. QBs picked that high almost always play as rookies, whether they're really ready or not.
I think if the Giants don't trade down, and take a QB, it's not Allen. I also think if they take a QB, they're going to take someone who can get on the field in 2018 and start climbing the learning curve. If you're going to sit a guy for years, you don't pick him at #2.
Also, looking at the current tear-down underway, if the Giants draft a QB I would not be surprised if the Giants and Eli part ways. Eli's not interested in being a "bridge QB" or a "mentor." If it's Darnold or Rosen, they might as well get the kid on the field. It would have to be handled very, very differently from the (botched) end of the streak, but that's do-able. Peyton left the Colts, Montana left the Niners. It happens.
It would be great to see more broken plays like that.
It would be great to see more broken plays like that.
Not sure what you define as a "broken play" or for that matter what your point is...
p.s.--The great ones don't need a clean pocket and an open receiver in order for them to complete the play as it is designed. It's the mediocre QB who gives up on the designed play if the pocket isn't clean and there isn't a wide open receiver.
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You are biased towards Rosen, we all know that. But it is silly to discount a player who can make something out of nothing (a broken play). Most of the great ones have that skill. Most NFL QBs can complete passes when given a clean pocket and an open receiver. The great ones go beyond that.
I wasn't discounting, but what's silly is to base your opinion on a QB on his 15 best plays, especially if it's a QB who is at his best on broken plays.
p.s.--The great ones don't need a clean pocket and an open receiver in order for them to complete the play as it is designed. It's the mediocre QB who gives up on the designed play if the pocket isn't clean and there isn't a wide open receiver.
There are plenty of highlight plays of Allen throwing on time from a clean pocket, just as there are plenty of highlights of him misfiring with a clean pocket. The same exists for Rosen and every other QB in his draft. The Gruden quote was to point out how to evaluate a guy's ceiling. Clearly if he can't throw from the pocket on time, he isn't getting drafted, let alone being a first rounder.
Rosen may very well be the best QB in this draft, but your dismissal of every other QB and your blind praise of Rosen - who also has plenty of flaws himself - makes it hard to take what you say seriously.
QBs don't magically fix their flaws at the next level.In 2017, Allen had just four games where he threw for more than two touchdown passes and they came against teams with a combined 9-37 record -- Texas State, New Mexico, Central Michigan, and Gardner-Webb. If you remove those four games against absolutely inferior competition, Allen completed just 53.3 percent of his pass attempts for 877 yards with four touchdowns and six interceptions in seven games. He averaged just 125 passing yards per game against these teams. If you decide to include those four games, the most yards he passed for in any single game was 208.
There are plenty of highlight plays of Allen throwing on time from a clean pocket
p.s.--You should take what I say seriously or not based on the substance of what I'm saying (without trying to read into it any further than that).
There is nothing wrong with loving one prospect more than the others, but truthfully it does discount your opinion to some degree.
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he's selected in the top 4.
Says who? I believe there is about a 90% chance he is drafted in the top 4
I'd love to take that bet.
Chad Kanoff, who could be a late-round pick or a priority UDFA
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But a talking head on ESPN who was a former NFL front office guy (can't remember which one) attributed this quote to noted QB guru Gruden...
"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."
Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.
If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.
What if his top 15 plays are all broken plays?
Great! He'll be perfect for our o-line.
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At the QB from Princeton Giants scouts were on hand supposedly this kid aced it and threw well while that nor’easter was going on say Giants came away impressed ..... Got me thinking back to 79 when they drafted Phil Simms and never forget that draft not many people had heard of Simms out of Moorehead state even Pete Rozelle laughed as he made the selection ....Me and my father were like Phill who ? ....... Anybody know anything about this kid from Princeton maybe Sy 56 could tell us something.......
Chad Kanoff, who could be a late-round pick or a priority UDFA
Yup that’s him anybody seen him play there were a bunch of exams there scouting him and all came away impressed .... I was thinking if Giants don’t go QB round one and stick with Eli might this guy battle it out with Webb .....I don’t ever think I have seen a Princeton football game lol
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...doesn't automatically mean he has the highest ceiling of the top QBs in the draft. If that's all there was to it, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Joe Montana wouldn't be the three QBs with the strongest case for greatest of the modern era.
p.s.--Pat Shurmur is not a magician. I'm guessing the QB he would most like to coach is the one he gets to teach Calculus, not the one who still needs to learn Algebra.
+1 no Coach can teach accuracy enough to make a massive improvement.. I don't see the cieling being higher for Allen vs Rosen.. Josh's tape is pretty bad and you can't simply say because he looked good in shorts without defense out there that he has the skills.. the only skills he has is throwing far and fast.. thats not a QB.. a QB is a passer not a thrower..
It's so clear sometimes when someone actually really hasn't watched the tape that they have an opinion on.
This is not accurate.
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But a talking head on ESPN who was a former NFL front office guy (can't remember which one) attributed this quote to noted QB guru Gruden...
"Show me his top 15 plays and I'll give you that."
Meaning of course that Gruden felt that he could work with a QB and make him live up to the potential of his top 15 plays.
If Shurmur (our own QB guru) feels the same way, he could well prefer Allen, because Allen's top 15 plays are likely better than the top 15 of any other QB available.
What if his top 15 plays are all broken plays?
Sounds like youre talking about Brett Favre. Not my fave QB, but "big arm that fixes broken plays" is Brett Favre in a nut shell.
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I think most people would agree that the defining play of Eli's career (to date) was the "broken play" in the Super Bowl, where he escaped the rush and threw the "helmet catch" ball to Tyree.
It would be great to see more broken plays like that.
You can call that "defining" if you like, but it was more like his luckiest play than his greatest. His greatest was in the 2011 Super Bowl when he threw a perfectly placed ball 40+ yards downfield to Manningham.
How exactly was the Tyree play "lucky?" Its not like a tackler slipped off him or ran by him. The Welker drop in the '11 bowl was "lucky." Eli breaking away from Jarvis Green and avoiding Adalius Thomas were all from Eli moving himself in that situation. Not a normal occurrence to see him move like that but it was the biggest game and he willed that play. His dumb ass throws that become picks I live with because he is CAPABLE of moments like that.
While I havent dismissed Rosen Milton, at this point you are blind to any alternative and its disappointing because you used to be a good poster.
Ignoring Allen as a potential successor to Eli because you happen to like Rosen better is fucking stupid because he simply is the more talented QB than Rosen with better meds. He is bigger, stronger and I think faster than Rosen, who despite the red flags is your de facto number one choice. You also completely wriye off Darnold who has nearly identical numbers in 2 years.
Actually no....they are BETTER.
Darnold had 57 TDs and 22 INTs in 2 years as a starting qb at USC. Rosen had 59 and 26 in two and a HALF years. Darnold has a 65% comp in two years, Rosen is 5 pts lower while playing in the same conference as Darnold. Those numbers are only misleading IN THIS REGARD: Darnold had an "off year" by completing over 63% of his passes in the past season. Rosen's highest avg production is less than Darnold's college avg. Actually no, Rosen's highest comp pct AS WELL AS rating has not even met Darnold's. AVG!ut thats not the big deal.
Darnold has mobility, the history of playing LB on his High School football team, no party/rock the boat/controversial stuff to speak of and no injury red flags....like....at all.
Rosen has had the Trump hat thing, the multiple arm injuries and the 2 concussions in a month and a half against COLLEGE athletes.
Yet....he is so far and away from the rest of the pack as far as your choice to lead the Giants into the future? Even tho he has worse numbers, athleticism, potential and medical than Darnold?
My point Milton is that you have fallen in love with a player in the draft. I have always liked reading you as a poster, but you sound almost manic at this point. There is absolutely no reason to prefer Rosen(or any QB really) over Darnold if you look at everything totally objectively. It's another thing if you are in favor of an option like Allen who bring something to the table that darnold does not. But literally there is no reason to give Josh Rosen the edge over Sam darnold when it comes to evaluating drafting a quarterback (other than the comeback he led against Texas A&M...really thats it and was a fairly meaningless and flukey win).
You have admitted to having shared beliefs with Rosen, and thats okay. But your ignoring the pure numbers and actuality of Darnold being a better prospect thanRosen annoys me quite a bit. Especially when I cant fathom in what regard Josh Rosen looks the better QB prospect than Darnold.
I really like Allen but not at #2.
How exactly was the Tyree play "lucky?" Its not like a tackler slipped off him or ran by him.
As for the comparison between Darnold and Rosen, I'm not alone in seeing Rosen as the better of the two (nor am I alone in seeing Rosen as the best QB in the class). Rosen has better mechanics and played in a pro style offense. He was also much better on the whiteboard at the combine according to rumors and outperformed Darnold in the athletic testing. Nobody thinks Rosen is a better athlete than Darnold, but why did he do better? Because he worked harder at it and loves to compete, even if it's something he's not especially good at.
p.s.--Here are the rankings from three of the more respected draftniks in the business....
The Huddle Report Post-Combine Top 200
Draft Board Guru Post-Combine Top 100
Great Blue North Post-Combine Top 100
Rosen may very well be the best QB in this draft, and there are plenty of knowledgeable scouts who would agree with that. I think the point is that there really is no consensus at all. If the Giants draft him at #2 they obviously thought the same thing. I have watched him play a bunch and never saw anything that told me he was special. Granted I may be biased because I am an Arizona guy and he was brutal in that game against a very bad defense.
All season I was hoping the Giants would end up with a top pick to get their next franchise QB, but I am just not sure that guy is in this draft. I don't want them to just take the best of what is available, which is what this class feels like to me.
All season I was hoping the Giants would end up with a top pick to get their next franchise QB, but I am just not sure that guy is in this draft. I don't want them to just take the best of what is available, which is what this class feels like to me.
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In comment 13858444 GFAN52 said:
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he's selected in the top 4.
Says who? I believe there is about a 90% chance he is drafted in the top 4
I'd love to take that bet.
A lot of people more immersed than I in the draft (who make a living at this stuff), have said he has a decent chance of being the top QB taken. Personally, I wouldn't be upset. The guy has every tool in the toolbox to be a great NFL QB.
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How exactly was the Tyree play "lucky?" Its not like a tackler slipped off him or ran by him.
The luck factor wasn't the escape, but the fact that he basically threw the ball up for grabs in the middle of the field. The great throw is the one to Manningham in the 2011 Super Bowl.
As for the comparison between Darnold and Rosen, I'm not alone in seeing Rosen as the better of the two (nor am I alone in seeing Rosen as the best QB in the class). Rosen has better mechanics and played in a pro style offense. He was also much better on the whiteboard at the combine according to rumors and outperformed Darnold in the athletic testing. Nobody thinks Rosen is a better athlete than Darnold, but why did he do better? Because he worked harder at it and loves to compete, even if it's something he's not especially good at.
p.s.--Here are the rankings from three of the more respected draftniks in the business....
The Huddle Report Post-Combine Top 200
Draft Board Guru Post-Combine Top 100
Great Blue North Post-Combine Top 100
And Im sure I can find plenty of sites saying Darnold is the best QB prospect in tge draft. Thing is, there is literally nothing you can ppint to that makesRosen a clearly better than Darnold. My point is not that you prefer Rosen, you utterly dismissive of any other QB option in this draft when Rosen has as many if not more warts than any of them.
Darnold scares me -- and Rosen is a good thrower -- but I worry about his attitude and bullheadedness
Allen needs work -- but he has all the tools, including the intangibles, and he has shown -- more than Darnold and Rosen that he can take training/coaching and absorb it well
I am not a Baker Mayfield or Lamar Jackson fan