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States with no income tax and competitive advantage

yankeeslover : 3/13/2018 9:51 am
I see this come up every year in every sport. A player electing to sign with a team with no income tax. I do have a question. We will stick with football. If a player has 8 home games, does that mean 8 games are tax free or is it all 16 games? I'm not sure how that works with athletes.
Also any suggestions to combat this advantage? Maybe teams in say FL have a slightly lower cap number? Just seems with the amount of money involved we are not talking chump change for a difference.
they are taxed in the state the game is played  
UConn4523 : 3/13/2018 9:52 am : link
.
What if  
McLovin28 : 3/13/2018 9:55 am : link
that player didn't suit up? Or make the trip?
RE: they are taxed in the state the game is played  
yankeeslover : 3/13/2018 9:55 am : link
In comment 13861371 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
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Wow, didn't know this. Is this all sports? So if a team plays two games in FL for that season then two game checks are tax free.
The higher  
Metnut : 3/13/2018 10:00 am : link
tax states can always lower their income tax rates. They could also provide a 100% state income tax deduction for income earned by professional athletes but that would likely be tough politically to put through.
RE: they are taxed in the state the game is played  
Eman11 : 3/13/2018 10:03 am : link
In comment 13861371 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
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In addition to the state they live in assuming their home state has a state tax.

I don't know the answer with respect to London games  
Diver_Down : 3/13/2018 10:04 am : link
but it pertains to Jax as they are committed to playing in London every season. Is the one game in London always one of their "home" games? Or do they still have 8 home games and 1 London game?

In general with respect to Jax, they have long been the doormat of the NFL with terrible season after another. Now that they are competitive, it (tax issue) can certainly play a factor in luring FA talent. Is it the deciding factor? Not likely. But when considered among the other factors (cost of living, desirable location, competitive team, etc.), it likely doesn't help other teams that are based in higher tax locales.

I don't think penalizing teams in lower tax rates is the answer. But rather focusing on the task of being more competitive. Some FA will always base their decision on money, but there are many that want to go to a competitive team. Outside of the 11-5 season, we haven't been competitive for years.
Exactly  
jeff57 : 3/13/2018 10:04 am : link
That's why Jacksonville has won so many super bowls.
Maybe not so much in Jacksonville, but  
George from PA : 3/13/2018 10:05 am : link
The real estate taxes are crazy in Florida
RE: RE: they are taxed in the state the game is played  
Eman11 : 3/13/2018 10:06 am : link
In comment 13861384 yankeeslover said:
Quote:
In comment 13861371 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


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Wow, didn't know this. Is this all sports? So if a team plays two games in FL for that season then two game checks are tax free.


They'd still have to pay state income tax to the state they live in, but wouldn't have to pay anything to FL for those two game checks.
RE: Maybe not so much in Jacksonville, but  
Diver_Down : 3/13/2018 10:09 am : link
In comment 13861406 George from PA said:
Quote:
The real estate taxes are crazy in Florida


You have to keep in mind that players for Jax don't live in Jax. They are likely residing in Jax Beach or Ponte Vedra. If they live at the beach, they are paying plenty in property tax.
RE: Exactly  
Capt. Don : 3/13/2018 10:09 am : link
In comment 13861405 jeff57 said:
Quote:
That's why Jacksonville has won so many super bowls.


The disadvantage is that the player has to live in Jacksonville for a large portion of the year.
And, IIRC, taxes paid to other  
section125 : 3/13/2018 10:10 am : link
states are deductible in your own domicile state.
As one would expect, California started it  
shyster : 3/13/2018 10:10 am : link

"The modern 'jock tax' originated in 1991, when California imposed the tax on the earnings of Chicago Bulls players who traveled to Los Angeles to play the Lakers in that year's NBA Finals. Illinois soon retaliated, imposing its own 'jock tax' on out-of-state players—although Illinois' tax is only imposed on athletes from states that impose jock taxes on Illinois-based players.Other states followed suit; by 2014, the only U.S. jurisdictions with major professional teams without a jock tax were Florida, Texas, Washington state, and Washington, D.C."
wiki - ( New Window )
So players have to double dip with taxes?  
yankeeslover : 3/13/2018 10:11 am : link
Say giants play in San Fran. That game check they pay both NJ tax and CA tax? Holy shit. Wow
RE: RE: Exactly  
section125 : 3/13/2018 10:11 am : link
In comment 13861415 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
In comment 13861405 jeff57 said:


Quote:


That's why Jacksonville has won so many super bowls.



The disadvantage is that the player has to live in Jacksonville for a large portion of the year.


Yes, it is tough living in Ponta Vedra or St. Augustine.....
RE: RE: they are taxed in the state the game is played  
HomerJones45 : 3/13/2018 10:13 am : link
In comment 13861384 yankeeslover said:
Quote:
In comment 13861371 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


.



Wow, didn't know this. Is this all sports? So if a team plays two games in FL for that season then two game checks are tax free.
Not exactly. You always get taxed in your home state. You get a credit against your state tax for taxes you pay in another state. So, a player living in Jersey pays Jersey tax on 100% of his income. If he played two games in California and paid California income tax on the two game checks, Jersey provides a credit (it may not be dollar for dollar- depends on the state) for the tax paid in California.

So, a player who did not pay Florida income tax for the game in Florida still pays Jersey tax on the income.

Florida is a competitive advantage because not only does the player get a break for the home games, but any outside income - investment income, endorsements etc, is not subject to tax. Why do you think Jeter established Florida residency when he was playing for the Yankees?
I  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2018 10:14 am : link
players make life choices of n millions of dollars based on a few hundred k.

California is worse than NY and the 49ers, Chargers, Rams, (and formerly the Raiders) don't struggle to attract free agents or to get their own players to re-sign b/c of taxes.

if the Giants lose Norwell it's because either a) he views JAX as more of a contender or b) they offered him more money in contract value/guarantees (gross, not net)
RE: RE: RE: Exactly  
Diver_Down : 3/13/2018 10:15 am : link
In comment 13861424 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13861415 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


In comment 13861405 jeff57 said:


Quote:


That's why Jacksonville has won so many super bowls.



The disadvantage is that the player has to live in Jacksonville for a large portion of the year.



Yes, it is tough living in Ponta Vedra or St. Augustine.....


I don't know of any players in St. Augustine, but it wouldn't be so bad to say live in World Golf Village and commute 45 minutes to work. Players could live in Amelia Island and commute the same distance/time. The point is that no one lives in Jax that has a choice.
RE: I  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2018 10:15 am : link
In comment 13861438 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
players make life choices of n millions of dollars based on a few hundred k.

California is worse than NY and the 49ers, Chargers, Rams, (and formerly the Raiders) don't struggle to attract free agents or to get their own players to re-sign b/c of taxes.

if the Giants lose Norwell it's because either a) he views JAX as more of a contender or b) they offered him more money in contract value/guarantees (gross, not net)


This should say "I'd be surprised if...."
JC  
yankeeslover : 3/13/2018 10:17 am : link
And I'm still in shitty upstate NY.. lol. Time for me to start rethinking where I'm living. Sunny FL with no taxes or the snowhole up here.. hmmmm
RE: RE: RE: RE: Exactly  
section125 : 3/13/2018 10:17 am : link
In comment 13861440 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13861424 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13861415 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


In comment 13861405 jeff57 said:


Quote:


That's why Jacksonville has won so many super bowls.



The disadvantage is that the player has to live in Jacksonville for a large portion of the year.



Yes, it is tough living in Ponta Vedra or St. Augustine.....



I don't know of any players in St. Augustine, but it wouldn't be so bad to say live in World Golf Village and commute 45 minutes to work. Players could live in Amelia Island and commute the same distance/time. The point is that no one lives in Jax that has a choice.


There are very, very nice houses on the St. Johns River..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Exactly  
Diver_Down : 3/13/2018 10:22 am : link
In comment 13861451 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13861440 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 13861424 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13861415 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


In comment 13861405 jeff57 said:


Quote:


That's why Jacksonville has won so many super bowls.



The disadvantage is that the player has to live in Jacksonville for a large portion of the year.



Yes, it is tough living in Ponta Vedra or St. Augustine.....



I don't know of any players in St. Augustine, but it wouldn't be so bad to say live in World Golf Village and commute 45 minutes to work. Players could live in Amelia Island and commute the same distance/time. The point is that no one lives in Jax that has a choice.



There are very, very nice houses on the St. Johns River..


And those are the few exceptions. Mandarin is technically still Jax, but it is all old money. There are estates that you can drive by and admire their gates, but those properties do not hit the market too often. The point is that there are many desirable locations surrounding Jax. No one lives in Jax that has a choice.
RE: RE: Exactly  
Dr. D : 3/13/2018 10:22 am : link
In comment 13861415 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
In comment 13861405 jeff57 said:


Quote:

The disadvantage is that the player has to live in Jacksonville for a large portion of the year.

Capt Don, have you ever been to Ponte Vedra Beach? There's a reason Tom Coughlin never sold his mansion on the beach when he was fired from Jax years ago.
RE: JC  
Diver_Down : 3/13/2018 10:24 am : link
In comment 13861449 yankeeslover said:
Quote:
And I'm still in shitty upstate NY.. lol. Time for me to start rethinking where I'm living. Sunny FL with no taxes or the snowhole up here.. hmmmm


Whenever the NE has shitty winters, construction booms in Florida. Come on down...
Tax issues  
teso56 : 3/13/2018 10:24 am : link
1) Players are taxed similar to entertainers - They earn income in the different states they play and have to file several state returns
2) Signing bonuses and roster bonuses would be taxed in the state the player plays/lives (ie: New Jersey for Giants) - This is important because most guaranteed money comes in this form
3) under the new law fees paid to agents and advisors are no longer deductible. These fees can be 8-10%. That is significant
Florida is a cesspool  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2018 10:27 am : link
my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.

An update on State taxes  
BillT : 3/13/2018 10:27 am : link
Taxes paid to the state where the money is earned. (where the game is played in this case) are credited to the home state of the individual. There is no double taxation. If games are played in a no tax State then there is no credit given but the home State still taxes the income.
RE: Florida is a cesspool  
Bill L : 3/13/2018 10:30 am : link
In comment 13861472 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.

I don't get it. He saws and saws and that makes FL attach to Georgia?
Taxed on everything in their home state if it has an income tax  
njm : 3/13/2018 10:32 am : link
Credit, not deduction, for taxes paid to other states but not more than what the home state tax is on that % of their income.

That's what everyone who works in NY but lives in NJ or Conn. faces every year.

As far as agents fees go, I wonder if they could deduct a part of those against fees for commercials and appearances they do on the side.
RE: RE: Florida is a cesspool  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2018 10:33 am : link
In comment 13861479 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13861472 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.



I don't get it. He saws and saws and that makes FL attach to Georgia?


Strike that. Reverse it.

I don't think so!  
Doomster : 3/13/2018 10:33 am : link
The higher
Metnut : 10:00 am : link : reply
tax states can always lower their income tax rates. They could also provide a 100% state income tax deduction for income earned by professional athletes but that would likely be tough politically to put through.

I feel only plumbers and pipefitters should get no tax status!
RE: Florida is a cesspool  
jeff57 : 3/13/2018 10:35 am : link
In comment 13861472 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.



Agree. It's fine for a vacation, but the longer you're there, the more brain cells you lose.
RE: Maybe not so much in Jacksonville, but  
Giants1956 : 3/13/2018 10:37 am : link
In comment 13861406 George from PA said:
Quote:
The real estate taxes are crazy in Florida


How so?
RE: Florida is a cesspool  
section125 : 3/13/2018 10:38 am : link
In comment 13861472 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.



What? To each is own. Florida is a hell of a lot better than NJ, even though NJ has better beaches, at least compared to FL East Coast.
Traffic is traffic, no matter where you live.

While you are up there shoveling snow for four months, we are in shorts. Yeah, have to dodge a hurricane or two every now and then.
If I'm retired and fortunate enough  
aimrocky : 3/13/2018 10:38 am : link
to afford living in a resort community, then I'd live in Florida. Having the resort amenities coupled with the great weather offset the white trash, strip malls and Chili's that overwhelm the state.

Right now, I'd have a hard time giving up the amenities of the Northeast. The climate changes don't bother me, outside of the tail end of winter.
RE: RE: Florida is a cesspool  
Bill L : 3/13/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 13861491 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 13861472 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.





Agree. It's fine for a vacation, but the longer you're there, the more brain cells you lose.
If you're only in a place for vacation, there's really no intellectual stimulation, which pretty much just comes from work or having some sort of hobby or avocation. So, yeah, you're going to lose brain cells for any place you're just visiting. It's not a fair comparison at all. Of course, maybe people in Florida do lose brain cells because they're...real, really old and old people deteriorate. But if you lived and worked there and you're not decrepit, I highly doubt you would lose brain cells.
There also the Canadian dollar dilemma (for the other sports)  
WideRight : 3/13/2018 10:40 am : link
The general approach is to compare contracts on post tax, post currency exchange basis. Then players can compare apples to apples and chose.

Its not likely that the tax consideration weighs heavily into the final decision of where a guy will play. Account for the differences and make the best football decision possible.
RE: RE: Florida is a cesspool  
jeff57 : 3/13/2018 10:40 am : link
In comment 13861498 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13861472 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.





What? To each is own. Florida is a hell of a lot better than NJ, even though NJ has better beaches, at least compared to FL East Coast.
Traffic is traffic, no matter where you live.

While you are up there shoveling snow for four months, we are in shorts. Yeah, have to dodge a hurricane or two every now and then.


The snow does suck. A three month winter time share is the maximum I could take.
I'm lookng out my window now  
Bill L : 3/13/2018 10:41 am : link
wishing I was somewhere in the sun and warmth. Not the best day for me to disparage Florida. Upstate NY sometimes blows and but more often, so does the snow and wind.
RE: Florida is a cesspool  
Giants1956 : 3/13/2018 10:43 am : link
In comment 13861472 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

Maybe pjcas18, you should go to different parts of Florida
I've lived in Adventura and Indian Rocks Beach.

Where do you live? What places do you like?


No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.

RE: RE: Florida is a cesspool  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2018 10:51 am : link
In comment 13861516 Giants1956 said:
Quote:
In comment 13861472 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

Maybe pjcas18, you should go to different parts of Florida
I've lived in Adventura and Indian Rocks Beach.

Where do you live? What places do you like?


No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.




I said no offense.

that gives me the right to offend without being questioned.

It's like saying with all due respect before being disrespectful.
RE: RE: RE: Florida is a cesspool  
section125 : 3/13/2018 11:01 am : link
In comment 13861554 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13861516 Giants1956 said:

I said no offense.

that gives me the right to offend without being questioned.

It's like saying with all due respect before being disrespectful.


True..This is how gentlemen piss on each other without getting angry!
I suspect the tax issue  
moespree : 3/13/2018 11:17 am : link
Is thought of by less than 10% of pro athletes. Maybe I'm way off on that, but I just don't think many of these guys are thinking about what the income or real estate tax level when deciding whether or not to accept like an $80 million offer.
RE: I suspect the tax issue  
section125 : 3/13/2018 11:23 am : link
In comment 13861667 moespree said:
Quote:
Is thought of by less than 10% of pro athletes. Maybe I'm way off on that, but I just don't think many of these guys are thinking about what the income or real estate tax level when deciding whether or not to accept like an $80 million offer.


You really don't think California's 13.5% tax rate would give a little pause? But you are probably correct, it isn't an overriding concern.
RE: RE: RE: Florida is a cesspool  
Giants1956 : 3/13/2018 11:35 am : link
In comment 13861554 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13861516 Giants1956 said:


Quote:


In comment 13861472 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


my father lives there and every time i visit it's good for a couple days then the weather, the white trash, the traffic (in many areas) the plastic nature of the state, just outweighs the positives the state has the negatives of the Northeast.

Lower state income tax is not going to sway me as a professional athlete to move there.

Maybe pjcas18, you should go to different parts of Florida
I've lived in Adventura and Indian Rocks Beach.

Where do you live? What places do you like?


No offense to people who enjoy it, nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there.






I said no offense.

that gives me the right to offend without being questioned.

It's like saying with all due respect before being disrespectful.


Thank you for explaining :)
RE: RE: I suspect the tax issue  
njm : 3/13/2018 11:48 am : link
In comment 13861699 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13861667 moespree said:


Quote:


Is thought of by less than 10% of pro athletes. Maybe I'm way off on that, but I just don't think many of these guys are thinking about what the income or real estate tax level when deciding whether or not to accept like an $80 million offer.



You really don't think California's 13.5% tax rate would give a little pause? But you are probably correct, it isn't an overriding concern.


It may not be an overriding concern, but if you play in Florida or Texas (assuming the tax rates for your away games averages 6%) that's about an $8 million difference over the life of the contract. I assume an agent would point that out.
Tennessee - a state with a state income tax  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2018 11:54 am : link
has a provision in their tax code that exempts professional athletes strictly for this reason.

If it affected competitiveness enough, I suspect it wouldn't have a problem being passed in most other states too.
Taxes is an area where the average BBIer knows way more than the  
Marty in Albany : 3/13/2018 2:20 pm : link
average football player. I would be surprised if one player in 20 even considers becoming a resident of a particular state, or playing for a particular team because of state income taxes.

If players were as savvy about money and taxes as most BBIers are, there would be a lot fewer former football players who are now broke.

First of all, there are more significant issues on which to make a choice of teams and a choice of residency than state income tax. Second, if the player is, in fact, focusing on taxation, he is probably washed up already, so who needs him?


RE: Taxes is an area where the average BBIer knows way more than the  
Bill L : 3/13/2018 2:48 pm : link
In comment 13862344 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
average football player. I would be surprised if one player in 20 even considers becoming a resident of a particular state, or playing for a particular team because of state income taxes.

If players were as savvy about money and taxes as most BBIers are, there would be a lot fewer former football players who are now broke.

First of all, there are more significant issues on which to make a choice of teams and a choice of residency than state income tax. Second, if the player is, in fact, focusing on taxation, he is probably washed up already, so who needs him?

I would imagine that most or all nfl players, especially FA's deciding where to go, are working with agents and advisors that are way more tax savvy than the average BBI-er though.
taxes  
Hilary : 3/13/2018 2:51 pm : link
The the value of Norwell's contract in Florida as compared to New York is about 1/2 million dollars per year in take home pay.The agents know this and you can be 100% sure that Coughlin knows this and let's the players he recruits know this.Compared to the Jaguars the Giants are at a huge disadvantage in terms of take home pay and cost of living.This may be offset by the ability to earn money through endorsements and appearances.

I for one have had an extremely comfortable life up here in Albany but I would have significant financial difficulties in New York York City doing the same job, with the same income
RE: Tennessee - a state with a state income tax  
Mad Mike : 3/13/2018 3:10 pm : link
In comment 13861845 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
has a provision in their tax code that exempts professional athletes strictly for this reason.

Athletes aren't exempt in Tennessee, they're just not subject to an extra tax. TN doesn't have a state tax on wages, just on interest and investment income, which obviously wouldn't apply to out-of-state athletes playing the occasional game in state. They created a privilege tax which imposed a per-game fee on nba and nhl players (not nfl for some reason). That was repealed a few years ago, and out-of-state athletes don't face taxes for games in TN. But it's not like they're exempt from anything, they just no longer have to pay a special tax that was created just for them.
RE: RE: Tennessee - a state with a state income tax  
pjcas18 : 3/13/2018 3:27 pm : link
In comment 13862476 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 13861845 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


has a provision in their tax code that exempts professional athletes strictly for this reason.



Athletes aren't exempt in Tennessee, they're just not subject to an extra tax. TN doesn't have a state tax on wages, just on interest and investment income, which obviously wouldn't apply to out-of-state athletes playing the occasional game in state. They created a privilege tax which imposed a per-game fee on nba and nhl players (not nfl for some reason). That was repealed a few years ago, and out-of-state athletes don't face taxes for games in TN. But it's not like they're exempt from anything, they just no longer have to pay a special tax that was created just for them.


Ok, take it up with the San Diego tribune.

Quote:
Twenty-six states and the District of Columbia feature teams in the five major U.S. professional sports leagues — NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL and MLS. Of those 26, only three are tax-free states, with a fourth, Tennessee, featuring a “privilege tax” that exempts NFL and NHL players from paying any state taxes.

Link - ( New Window )
Not every player would take state income tax into account  
lawguy9801 : 3/13/2018 4:33 pm : link
but on balance, use logic and common sense - does having no state income tax tend to help or hurt a team's ability to attract players?

If two teams are otherwise comparable, and one team is in a state without an income tax, like Florida or Texas, and the other is in California, with a top marginal income tax rate of 13.5%, in whose balance does that tip the scales?

That isn't to say there are not other relevant factors to consider in a player deciding where to relocate. But to just wave off potential savings of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars as a non-issue is not what most people would do - including the people now saying it's a non-issue.
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