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NFT: Mavs @ Knicks: Make or Break for the Tank

giantsfan44ab : 3/13/2018 10:03 am
Early lines have NY as a home dog (Mavs -2). Might take the Knicks just so I get some satisfaction if they win. Mavs are without Wesley Matthews rest of the season now which doesn't help.

Not to be super pessimistic but if the Knicks win tonight I think you can lock in the draft slot at 9.

Posted this on the other thread but I'll ask it here:

How much can the Knicks could potentially carve out this summer (e.g. stretching Noah, Thomas and stretching/trading Kanter?)

Not saying it's the way to go, but thinking if they could throw an offer sheet to Randle, there may be a number LA won't be willing to go to match as it would lock up future cap space for all the stars they want to chase.
Are they still losing while trying to win?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/13/2018 10:07 am : link
.
I don't understand  
djm : 3/13/2018 10:10 am : link
this love for Randle. He's ok...but you're gonna blow this thing open for Randle? Meh..

Let this shit stained roster marinate for one more year unless there's a special defensive 3 to be had this summer. Randle isn't really that...unless I am mistaken.

think about it....you don't need to stretch Noah this summer ESPECIALLY for the likes of Randle. Let him stew at home. Draft another kid this summer. LEt the kids play next season. KP comes back. We win 25-30 games...get another higher pick and KP finishes up the year healthy. THEN you go all in on FA when the class is better.

Randle has been averaging  
giantsfan44ab : 3/13/2018 10:14 am : link
21, 10 and 4 on 60% shooting since the All Star break and turned 23 3 months ago...I dont know if that's good but I guarantee he's gonna be better than anyone the Knicks will get the following offseason.
No need to stretch Lance  
Earl the goat : 3/13/2018 10:53 am : link
His last year isnít guaranteed

Noah is the stretch possibility

Even if the Knicks win tonight picking 6-8 is still a possibility
Lakers will not resign randle  
nygiants16 : 3/13/2018 11:17 am : link
Only way I go after handle is if later opts out and kp agrees to play center, otherwise no reason
RE: Lakers will not resign randle  
giantsfan44ab : 3/13/2018 11:20 am : link
In comment 13861672 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Only way I go after handle is if later opts out and kp agrees to play center, otherwise no reason


I feel like position titles are just formalities, regardless if KP or Randle is the center, KP's main job will be to rim protect on defense whereas randle will be able to handle bigger guys/rebound. On offense, KP could floor space and post on the low block when needed. Randle could run PnRs with KP
Tank  
TyreeHelmet : 3/13/2018 11:22 am : link
Knicks are 1.5 point underdogs at home to Dallas. That tells me Vegas views them as the worst team in the NBA currently and they are correct. Who's currently the best player on the Knicks?

Tonight and than vs Orlando and Chicago would be huge losses. I can't see the Knicks winning more than 2 games.
RE: Randle has been averaging  
djm : 3/13/2018 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13861436 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
21, 10 and 4 on 60% shooting since the All Star break and turned 23 3 months ago...I dont know if that's good but I guarantee he's gonna be better than anyone the Knicks will get the following offseason.


How is Randle on D?
RE: Tank  
Enzo : 3/13/2018 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13861695 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
Knicks are 1.5 point underdogs at home to Dallas. That tells me Vegas views them as the worst team in the NBA currently and they are correct. Who's currently the best player on the Knicks?

Kanter and Hardaway are good enough to affect games down the stretch. Need these two to "rest" whenever possible.
RE: RE: Tank  
TyreeHelmet : 3/13/2018 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13862167 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13861695 TyreeHelmet said:


Quote:


Knicks are 1.5 point underdogs at home to Dallas. That tells me Vegas views them as the worst team in the NBA currently and they are correct. Who's currently the best player on the Knicks?


Kanter and Hardaway are good enough to affect games down the stretch. Need these two to "rest" whenever possible.


It would take balls but I would be all for shutting down Hardaway, Kanter and Lee down the stretch. Why risk injury with those guys? Other teams have done it, why not the Knicks? Going from 9th to top 5 in the lottery is a massive improvement that could alter the franchise for years. Why not maximize their chances? And please spare me the talk of building a culture.
RE: RE: RE: Tank  
Enzo : 3/13/2018 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13862182 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13862167 Enzo said:


Quote:


In comment 13861695 TyreeHelmet said:


Quote:


Knicks are 1.5 point underdogs at home to Dallas. That tells me Vegas views them as the worst team in the NBA currently and they are correct. Who's currently the best player on the Knicks?


Kanter and Hardaway are good enough to affect games down the stretch. Need these two to "rest" whenever possible.



It would take balls but I would be all for shutting down Hardaway, Kanter and Lee down the stretch. Why risk injury with those guys? Other teams have done it, why not the Knicks? Going from 9th to top 5 in the lottery is a massive improvement that could alter the franchise for years. Why not maximize their chances? And please spare me the talk of building a culture.

all true. Shutting all 3 down would piss some people off, so maybe you give them each a few games down the stretch. But there's absolutely nothing to be gained by playing them big minutes down the stretch. We have plenty of young guys that would benefit from extra playing time.
We've seen this Hardaway act before during our last tank.  
bceagle05 : 3/13/2018 1:44 pm : link
You can bet he's pulling a couple of 40-point games out of his ass to cost us a draft slot or two.
RE: RE: Randle has been averaging  
giantsfan44ab : 3/13/2018 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13861984 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13861436 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


21, 10 and 4 on 60% shooting since the All Star break and turned 23 3 months ago...I dont know if that's good but I guarantee he's gonna be better than anyone the Knicks will get the following offseason.



How is Randle on D?


Very good individual defender. His weakness was rim protection but I think he has posted some of the best rim protection %s since he's been starting. There are no glaring weaknesses to his game except for outside shooting but he more than makes up for that by being a mismatch on the perimeter with his ball handling, vision and strength.
FWIW  
giantsfan44ab : 3/13/2018 2:53 pm : link
Lavar Ball has said that Julius Randle is the best player on the Lakers.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: FWIW  
TyreeHelmet : 3/13/2018 3:26 pm : link
In comment 13862434 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Lavar Ball has said that Julius Randle is the best player on the Lakers. Link - ( New Window )


Heís a nice player but youíre going a little overboard here. Heís not a good defender and definitely has weaknesses. Check out the Knicks game and what Beasley did to him. He could be a good fit next to KP but I think itís smart for the Knicks to sit out this free agency.
Randle is not a shot blocker  
Pep22 : 3/13/2018 3:31 pm : link
but he is a very good and very versatile defender
RE: RE: FWIW  
giantsfan44ab : 3/13/2018 3:54 pm : link
In comment 13862506 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13862434 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


Lavar Ball has said that Julius Randle is the best player on the Lakers. Link - ( New Window )



Heís a nice player but youíre going a little overboard here. Heís not a good defender and definitely has weaknesses. Check out the Knicks game and what Beasley did to him. He could be a good fit next to KP but I think itís smart for the Knicks to sit out this free agency.


Beasley is a SF, Randle is a C. I think you're going overboard with what I was saying about him. I didn't say he was a 5 position shut down defender. Rudy Gay has taken Gobert to town on the perimeter, I don't think that detracts from Gobert being the DPOY.
Adding Randle and Mikal Bridges  
adamg : 3/13/2018 3:56 pm : link
would be a pretty sweet offseason
I'll take your Beasley  
giantsfan44ab : 3/13/2018 3:58 pm : link
and raise you Randle checking Steph and KD. He has had consistency issues and isn't ever going to be an elite rim protector, but he absolutely has shown flashes of being All Defensive team-caliber talent on his best days. He's been far and away the Lakers best player since they traded Nance and Clarkson on both ends of the floor, 7-2 since ASB.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: I'll take your Beasley  
TyreeHelmet : 3/13/2018 6:31 pm : link
In comment 13862608 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
and raise you Randle checking Steph and KD. He has had consistency issues and isn't ever going to be an elite rim protector, but he absolutely has shown flashes of being All Defensive team-caliber talent on his best days. He's been far and away the Lakers best player since they traded Nance and Clarkson on both ends of the floor, 7-2 since ASB. Link - ( New Window )


All Defense talent? Show me where I can bet he won't be All NBA Defense and I'll take it.

It's nice that he switch on the perimeter but you expect that from an undersized big. He can't space the floor or protect the rim. He's a nice young player but I wouldn't be rushing to sign him to a big contract.
RE: RE: RE: Randle has been averaging  
djm : 3/13/2018 6:40 pm : link
In comment 13862430 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13861984 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 13861436 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


21, 10 and 4 on 60% shooting since the All Star break and turned 23 3 months ago...I dont know if that's good but I guarantee he's gonna be better than anyone the Knicks will get the following offseason.



How is Randle on D?



Very good individual defender. His weakness was rim protection but I think he has posted some of the best rim protection %s since he's been starting. There are no glaring weaknesses to his game except for outside shooting but he more than makes up for that by being a mismatch on the perimeter with his ball handling, vision and strength.


Thanks.
good lord ... Clyde's jacket and tie!  
Del Shofner : 3/13/2018 7:32 pm : link
.
Lee back to starting  
nygiants16 : 3/13/2018 7:41 pm : link
What a joke
Kanter, Lance and Lee all starting  
Del Shofner : 3/13/2018 7:42 pm : link
with THJr and Mudiay.
How much Lance Thomas must we endure?  
bceagle05 : 3/13/2018 7:45 pm : link
I guess it's good for the tank but it's a joke at this point.
Can hornacek tell us again how he is a good defender  
nygiants16 : 3/13/2018 7:49 pm : link
He is garbage
KP back at MSG for the first time since the injury -  
Del Shofner : 3/13/2018 7:55 pm : link
looks good and saying the right things. Will use the rehab time to work on his upper body strength.
Love when hardaway plays like this  
nygiants16 : 3/13/2018 7:57 pm : link
Attacking not settling
Need to lose here.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 3/13/2018 8:05 pm : link
Would pick up game on Mavs, who are only 3 games worse than us currently.

Bulls should lose tonight @ home vs. Clips. Somehow, the Nets are up 8 on the Raps @ the end of the 1st, though I expect Toronto to win.
I guess Frank was playing too well for Hornacek's liking.  
bceagle05 : 3/13/2018 8:26 pm : link
.
RE: I guess Frank was playing too well for Hornacek's liking.  
nygiants16 : 3/13/2018 8:29 pm : link
In comment 13863338 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
.


Don't worry lance will play 30 minutes
I would like to start a FIRE HORNACEK thread  
Earl the goat : 3/13/2018 9:32 pm : link
How he keeps putting Lee and Lance on the floor is fucking amazing
Trey Burke should be getting 30 minutes a game
Dotson and Williams need more minutes too
Beautiful tank loss  
bceagle05 : 3/13/2018 9:43 pm : link
highlighted by a 19-0 third quarter run by the Mavs.

Of course, the Nets prove once again to be useless sacks of shit.
nice loss!  
Enzo : 3/13/2018 10:01 pm : link
which I couldn't even enjoy because Hornacek is just awful. Do we really need 72 combined mins for Beasley and Hardaway? Only 16 mins for Frank?
Hardaway turned his ankle at the end.  
bceagle05 : 3/13/2018 10:05 pm : link
Hope they use it as an excuse to shut him down.
RE: nice loss!  
bceagle05 : 3/13/2018 10:12 pm : link
In comment 13863512 Enzo said:
Quote:
which I couldn't even enjoy because Hornacek is just awful. Do we really need 72 combined mins for Beasley and Hardaway? Only 16 mins for Frank?


Six assists in 16 minutes.

Lance was a real defensive stopper tonight - I lost count, but I think Barnes went for 28.
RE: RE: nice loss!  
Enzo : 3/13/2018 10:15 pm : link
In comment 13863526 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
In comment 13863512 Enzo said:


Quote:


which I couldn't even enjoy because Hornacek is just awful. Do we really need 72 combined mins for Beasley and Hardaway? Only 16 mins for Frank?



Six assists in 16 minutes.

Lance was a real defensive stopper tonight - I lost count, but I think Barnes went for 28.

at least Lance got his usual 1 rebound.
I am sure lancehis happy  
nygiants16 : 3/13/2018 10:31 pm : link
He got to take his usually crappy long 2s where he looks off an open shooter, took some weird running layup that weren't even close and made 1 defensive play so hornacek can say he played good defense
Mudiay is pure trash  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 3/13/2018 10:58 pm : link
.

Nothing wrong with Mudiay.  
manh george : 3/14/2018 5:57 am : link
He used that beg, strong, athletic body to get 1 rebound, two assists and three turnovers. I wonder what he got 4 and 5 of.
Frank  
TyreeHelmet : 3/14/2018 7:58 am : link
Has had his struggles and I canít say Iím happy with the pick. But how theyíve coached him and developed him this year has been criminal. Hornacek needs to go. How does he not play him 35-40 minutes last night? He is by far the most important player to develop right now.
RE: Frank  
Enzo : 3/14/2018 9:28 am : link
In comment 13863844 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
Has had his struggles and I canít say Iím happy with the pick. But how theyíve coached him and developed him this year has been criminal. Hornacek needs to go. How does he not play him 35-40 minutes last night? He is by far the most important player to develop right now.

Perry/Mills deserve blame as well for this. What's the plan?
RE: RE: I'll take your Beasley  
giantsfan44ab : 3/14/2018 9:43 am : link
In comment 13862972 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 13862608 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


and raise you Randle checking Steph and KD. He has had consistency issues and isn't ever going to be an elite rim protector, but he absolutely has shown flashes of being All Defensive team-caliber talent on his best days. He's been far and away the Lakers best player since they traded Nance and Clarkson on both ends of the floor, 7-2 since ASB. Link - ( New Window )



All Defense talent? Show me where I can bet he won't be All NBA Defense and I'll take it.

It's nice that he switch on the perimeter but you expect that from an undersized big. He can't space the floor or protect the rim. He's a nice young player but I wouldn't be rushing to sign him to a big contract.


Good thing KP can protect the rim and Randle flourishes where KP struggles on defense (handling perimeter and stretch bigs). He doesn't space the floor but he is still a mismatch with his handle and quickness. In the East he would get perennial all star consideration. Lakers have been on a roll and he's been by far their best player.

I just dont think there's any way the Knicks even sniff all the top players hitting FA the next 2 years (Lebron, PG, Kawhi) and the Knicks could do worse than giving a 23 year old who averages 20 and 10 and compliments KP well a big deal. I think a more likely scenario than landing the studs is being left holding the bag in the offseason of 2019 and giving guys like Darren Collison and Bojan Bogdonavic 4 year/$50M deals.
At this point though  
giantsfan44ab : 3/14/2018 9:45 am : link
Magic would look foolish if he tries landing PG and Lebron and strikes out and loses Randle for nothing. A smart team who wants Randle should give him his offer sheet day 1. Lebron ain't rushing his decision for the Lakers.
Randle  
TyreeHelmet : 3/14/2018 9:57 am : link
Has been very impressive recently. But you have to look at his entire career and itís been uneven. Is he playing hard for a contract or did he figure it out?

In theory he could be a good fit next to KP but the Knicks and KP donít seem to view him as a center. I donít agree with it.

I just want to the knicks to sit out this free agency to gain some cap flexibility. Every offseason they give out some shitty contract. I agree itís a long shot to land the top guys but I want to leave that door open. Having cap flexibility helps with other things as well.
RE: At this point though  
Enzo : 3/14/2018 10:08 am : link
In comment 13864090 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Magic would look foolish if he tries landing PG and Lebron and strikes out and loses Randle for nothing. A smart team who wants Randle should give him his offer sheet day 1. Lebron ain't rushing his decision for the Lakers.

it's not a bad idea but, thanks to the sins of Phil/Mills, we don't have the cap space or flexibility to pull it off.
RE: Randle  
giantsfan44ab : 3/14/2018 10:10 am : link
In comment 13864120 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
Has been very impressive recently. But you have to look at his entire career and itís been uneven. Is he playing hard for a contract or did he figure it out?

In theory he could be a good fit next to KP but the Knicks and KP donít seem to view him as a center. I donít agree with it.

I just want to the knicks to sit out this free agency to gain some cap flexibility. Every offseason they give out some shitty contract. I agree itís a long shot to land the top guys but I want to leave that door open. Having cap flexibility helps with other things as well.


I just think it's dumb labeling positions still, especially with big men as their roles are very matchup dependent. KP and Kanter have worked really well

Quote:
Has been very impressive recently. But you have to look at his entire career and itís been uneven. Is he playing hard for a contract or did he figure it out?


Not going to lie, this is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have heard. I hear this about RBs in the NFL, never about a 22 year old NBA player. His career has been uneven because he came into the league when he was 20 and has gotten better as he matures into adulthood. Nothing against you Tyree, I think you are a great poster, but why would this silly assessment apply to Randle and Randle alone and not every single player is in the last year of their rookie deal? Is KP good or is he aware that he's up for an extension and was just dropping 25 PPG casually to boost his contract? I really don't get that argument one bit.
RE: RE: At this point though  
giantsfan44ab : 3/14/2018 10:11 am : link
In comment 13864152 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13864090 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


Magic would look foolish if he tries landing PG and Lebron and strikes out and loses Randle for nothing. A smart team who wants Randle should give him his offer sheet day 1. Lebron ain't rushing his decision for the Lakers.


it's not a bad idea but, thanks to the sins of Phil/Mills, we don't have the cap space or flexibility to pull it off.


I believe it is possible if Noah and Thomas are waived and one of Kanter/Lee is traded with less salary in return (or if Kanter is stretched). It wouldn't be the smartest move ruining future years of cap space if you are unable to land Randle though, but I think it is at least possible if they did want to go all in.
Randle  
TyreeHelmet : 3/14/2018 10:30 am : link
Him turning it on right before he hits free agency has to be considered. It should be considered for every player. Not sure how thatís a ridiculous argument. Iíve heard Morey and other GMs discuss this aspect as well.

I like Randle as a player, I just donít want the Knicks to overpay for him. If you could get him for 4 years 40 mill then Iím interested. But heís going to get between 4 years and 60-80 mill. The Knicks arenít one player away and should be trying to clean up their cap and not clog it.

I know it sucks but the Knicks should view next year as another rebuilding year. Try to move Lee, Hardaway ( not happening) and Kanter for picks. Donít rush KP back next year and nab another top pick. Take some fliers on young players and try to find the next Covington. The Knicks donít have a young core outside of KP and desperately need to build that.

RE: Randle  
giantsfan44ab : 3/14/2018 10:44 am : link
In comment 13864239 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
Him turning it on right before he hits free agency has to be considered. It should be considered for every player. Not sure how thatís a ridiculous argument. Iíve heard Morey and other GMs discuss this aspect as well.

I like Randle as a player, I just donít want the Knicks to overpay for him. If you could get him for 4 years 40 mill then Iím interested. But heís going to get between 4 years and 60-80 mill. The Knicks arenít one player away and should be trying to clean up their cap and not clog it.

I know it sucks but the Knicks should view next year as another rebuilding year. Try to move Lee, Hardaway ( not happening) and Kanter for picks. Donít rush KP back next year and nab another top pick. Take some fliers on young players and try to find the next Covington. The Knicks donít have a young core outside of KP and desperately need to build that.


Again, how does this example solely apply to Randle and not a player like KP? they've both played 3 seasons thus far in the NBA and have shown consistent improvement each year. Why is this year an aberration for Randle? He's playing as well as he always has when he gets minutes. This part is key because before Nance and Clarkson were traded the Lakers were going with different lineups every night.

The counter to that is that the the next two chances to land a player through FA is before KP's new contract. So you could look at a 4 year $80M as waste on a 23 year old, but it also could be moot how much he makes because the Knicks would have little to no room regardless if he makes $12M a year or $20M a year going forward.

Picks arent being traded for middle of the road players anymore. Lee will likely be moved for a lesser player with hopefully lesser salary if he's moved at all. I still think THJR can be part of a core for the Knicks so long as he functions primarily as a bench scorer.

I can certainly envision a core of KP, Randle, Mikal Bridges (placeholder example), Frank (in a Danny Green 3 and D role if he improves his 3 point shot) and THJr off the bench being a very strong group a few years down the line. Its sound for the modern NBA; good spacing
*good spacing  
giantsfan44ab : 3/14/2018 10:46 am : link
tight perimeter defense, solid rebounding, great rim protection. Can push in transition and play in the halfcourt.
RE: Frank  
djm : 3/14/2018 10:54 am : link
In comment 13863844 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
Has had his struggles and I canít say Iím happy with the pick. But how theyíve coached him and developed him this year has been criminal. Hornacek needs to go. How does he not play him 35-40 minutes last night? He is by far the most important player to develop right now.


Criminal? Forcing a struggling young 19 year into 40 min a night is criminal.

Frank has has played more than enough minutes. Former players have said Frank will not get any better this year. He needs more conditioning and weigh training.

You guys are killing Horn night after night after night. Sonme of it I get...some if it is too much. Frank's workload is just fine right now. The guy can't fucking play yet...40 min won't help, it could hurt.
and again  
djm : 3/14/2018 11:18 am : link
I am not sitting here saying i want Horn back or think he's the long term answer at HC. I don't want him back. I just think killing him because he won't give Frank 40 min a night is unfair. I have heard a few former players say Frank needs this season to end asap. He's not getting any better. He needs to hit the gym and the weights and mature on and off the court.

I am just glad Frank actually got some major burn this season. After the ankle injury over the summer I was concerned this rookie year would be a total washout. It has been anything but. Frank has gained valuable experience.

Now, maybe you could kill Horn for not playing Burke enough minutes...that I would agree with.

This team fucking sucks.
On the Randle debate:  
giantsfan44ab : 3/14/2018 11:27 am : link
I hope this all becomes moot and the Knicks land a top 5 pick and get one of the top 3 bigs.

Huge loss (win?) for the tank with the Mavs. Next two games are key as well, a Bulls loss i think would make a top 5 pick highly likely.

Nets have been disappointing but they still get Dallas, Memphis, Charlotte at home, Orlando, Pistons at home, Bulls twice and Boston the last game of the season (probably 99% chance Boston plays all their backups that game). Hopefully that translates to at least 4 more wins for them.
RE: RE: Frank  
TyreeHelmet : 3/14/2018 4:47 pm : link
In comment 13864376 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13863844 TyreeHelmet said:


Quote:


Has had his struggles and I canít say Iím happy with the pick. But how theyíve coached him and developed him this year has been criminal. Hornacek needs to go. How does he not play him 35-40 minutes last night? He is by far the most important player to develop right now.



Criminal? Forcing a struggling young 19 year into 40 min a night is criminal.

Frank has has played more than enough minutes. Former players have said Frank will not get any better this year. He needs more conditioning and weigh training.

You guys are killing Horn night after night after night. Sonme of it I get...some if it is too much. Frank's workload is just fine right now. The guy can't fucking play yet...40 min won't help, it could hurt.


I was referring to last night. Did you watch the game? Because he kept getting yanked for no reason and was actually playing well. He only played 16 mins in a game he was playing well. You don't see a problem with that? He yanked him 30 seconds into the 4th quarter.

But yes play Hardaway 40 mins as he bricks forced 3 after forced 3. That will help build this team....
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