Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

What do you think the plan is?

Ten Ton Hammer : 3/13/2018 10:15 am
There's very little insight into what the team is trying to do. So let's speculate based on zero information.

Gettleman was a mixed bag of comments. In one sentence he acknowledges that his job is to win, then next that it's his job to safeguard the long-term view of the franchise.

He establishes that the OL is a problem and must be fixed. No idea if Norwell was a real target or not.

Suggested Eli has years left, but concedes he has to go back and watch the games again.


Where's this boat headed?
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Unknown.  
Keith : 3/13/2018 11:06 am : link
Going after Norwell or Ogletree doesn't mean anything because both are very young and should have a lot of good football left.

It seems as though we are headed towards a rebuild(getting rid of older overpriced guys and signing young players), but we will see. I don't think anything is set in stone as far as the QB position goes, but even if it is a rebuild, keeping Eli on board doesn't change that. See 2004 when Eli was drafted.

Praying this team sees this correctly and starts the rebuild as opposed and being foolish thinking this team can win something.
Sign marginal guys and coach them up  
VinegarPeppers : 3/13/2018 11:07 am : link
While the Eagles win three straight Super Bowls while able to dump low round picks for starters better than the ones weíre way overpaying.

Jensen, Kline, and Hubbard  
JonC : 3/13/2018 11:09 am : link
are three good targets to plug in with Flowers, and they'll likely draft at least one OL they believe could start.
No clue. I would think the brass wasnít too thrilled  
The_Boss : 3/13/2018 11:10 am : link
Losing out on a building block type big fish for the weakest unit on the team. DG might have to partake in one of JRís favorite FA OL activity: dumpster diving.
FA OL plan B  
jeff57 : 3/13/2018 11:15 am : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Jensen, Kline, and Hubbard  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/13/2018 11:20 am : link
In comment 13861645 JonC said:
Quote:
are three good targets to plug in with Flowers, and they'll likely draft at least one OL they believe could start.


and also likely to tender Jones
RE: RE: Jensen, Kline, and Hubbard  
JonC : 3/13/2018 11:23 am : link
In comment 13861686 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13861645 JonC said:


Quote:


are three good targets to plug in with Flowers, and they'll likely draft at least one OL they believe could start.



and also likely to tender Jones


They need to do better there.
Joe Berger is another interior lineman  
jeff57 : 3/13/2018 11:25 am : link
who would be worth looking at. But the big OL play now should be for Solder.
The plan is to improve  
Joey in VA : 3/13/2018 11:36 am : link
Depth and get this roster back to actually being an NFL roster. I'm expecting DG to shore up multiple areas with mid 20s guys on their second contract who are probably not going to excite many people. The precipitous drop in talent from the starters to the backups in most spots is alarmingly bad. He mentioned that everyone gets a shirt at some point in the season and his job is to shore up the 53.

There simply aren't the Marquee talents in FA this year so why go wild on one or two big names when you can add plenty of less expensive veteran depth. He simply has to start at the bottom of the roster and move up. The weak link argument is a strong one in football especially now with so many specialist type players. You start at the bottom and work your way up and I fully expect to see that first and that's how it should be.

During his first stint here, DG found serviceable and effective low cost guys who kept us competitive when injuries or fatigue hit during the season or in a game. We had Rich Seubert as a sixth OL one year, imagine that right now. He'd be our best OL by miles and he wasn't good enough to start back then. Think about guys like Domenik Hixon and Dave Tollefson, Madison Hedgecock, Kevin Boothe. Those were depth signings that didn't move the needle but all played well and played hard when called upon. Proven NFL veteran talent, we need way way more of it to begin competing again.
BS  
Dragon : 3/13/2018 11:37 am : link
Norwell was never a reality for the Giants under no circumstance were they really anything more then a stepping stone for teams with much more money to spend. We all should know better than to listen to the media this guy took the money like they all do not a big surprise.
Build up the trenches as much as possible pre-draft  
Eric on Li : 3/13/2018 11:43 am : link
with a skew towards younger players who are high in character/competitiveness, that's what I think the plan is. I think Norwell might have been plan A but this team was very far away from a 1 move fix. Multiple OL who fit the mentality DG/PS are looking for will be signed, with a preference towards youth. Maybe a veteran like Berger to compete with a rookie somewhere. I think that's the first order of business and we'll see 50-60% of the cap room available reallocated towards the OL.

On the defensive side of the ball I think we will see some strategic additions for specific roles Bettcher thinks are important in his defense. Slot CB seems like an obvious one. A veteran LB he's coached before like Dansby could be another. These will likely be more patient value signings vs. top tier additions. Ogletree was probably the biggest defensive addition they will make in terms of cap allocation.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 11:46 am : link
2-3 year rebuild.

I think they know this team can't realistically compete next season. So, I think we're going to see more long-range moves rather than plugs and stopgaps.
RE: .  
The_Boss : 3/13/2018 11:56 am : link
In comment 13861810 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
2-3 year rebuild.

I think they know this team can't realistically compete next season. So, I think we're going to see more long-range moves rather than plugs and stopgaps.


If this is indeed the plan, and I agree it might be, why have Eli on the roster?
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13861852 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13861810 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


2-3 year rebuild.

I think they know this team can't realistically compete next season. So, I think we're going to see more long-range moves rather than plugs and stopgaps.



If this is indeed the plan, and I agree it might be, why have Eli on the roster?


Because whether we agree with it or not, I think they want Eli to be the transition guy for the next QB.

My guess is that we do draft a QB, and that Eli continues starting for a bit - possibly all of next season.

I think they want the next guy to have some time to learn from the sidelines before he gets thrown into action.

But we'll see.
RE: RE: .  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/13/2018 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13861852 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13861810 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


2-3 year rebuild.

I think they know this team can't realistically compete next season. So, I think we're going to see more long-range moves rather than plugs and stopgaps.



If this is indeed the plan, and I agree it might be, why have Eli on the roster?


Hard to move his contract. But it's also why I'm very uneasy about their approach. I'm not so sure they're committed to a rebuild.
Ten Ton  
Go Terps : 3/13/2018 12:35 pm : link
I share your unease about the future.

Gettleman should be stripping this thing down to bare bones, accumulating draft picks and cap space at every opportunity. Do that for a year or two, reset the organization, and build up from there.

But I suspect we'll get Eli back in 2018, big contracts for Collins and Beckham, and an effort to "make a run" with Eli. Again.
RE: RE: .  
Reb8thVA : 3/13/2018 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13861852 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13861810 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


2-3 year rebuild.

I think they know this team can't realistically compete next season. So, I think we're going to see more long-range moves rather than plugs and stopgaps.



If this is indeed the plan, and I agree it might be, why have Eli on the roster?


Are we in any better shape in 2-3 years? I don't know. Eli's contract comes off the books, but that money is probably already allocated for Collins and OBJ. Maybe its easier to cut JPP then. I like the Ogletree trade but I do wonder if we would be better accumulating picks.
other than letting FAs walk  
djm : 3/13/2018 12:46 pm : link
which they have done, how do you strip this down? You aren't cutting guys that can play.

They aren't rebuilding. They will build for the now and the future. There's no such thing as a 3 year rebuild. There's building for the now and the future.
The ogletree trade is what's throwing me  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/13/2018 12:48 pm : link
I get taking on big salary if you think you're close. I don't get taking on big salary and giving up picks with a rebuild.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 12:50 pm : link
We can label it whatever we want, really - but the bottom line is that we need to rebuild this team from the inside out.

We need to fix the line, we need to figure out who our next QB is, and then we need to go from there.

The Giants likely aren't going to be competitive next year. It makes more sense to be looking at things that can help us long-term rather than right now.
RE: other than letting FAs walk  
nygiants16 : 3/13/2018 12:50 pm : link
In comment 13862020 djm said:
Quote:
which they have done, how do you strip this down? You aren't cutting guys that can play.

They aren't rebuilding. They will build for the now and the future. There's no such thing as a 3 year rebuild. There's building for the now and the future.


Go tarps doesn't believe in paying anyone...

So he wants to get rid of Collins and Beckham to try and draft players just as good, and then when their contract comes get rid of them...
and they already did strip this thing down  
djm : 3/13/2018 12:51 pm : link
back in 2014.

You try to get the most out of what you have been dealt with an eye towards the future. That's what Gettleman and Shurmur will do here.

There aren't as many long term monster deals here as some think. There is Vernon, JPP and Snacks and Jack Rabbit. That's it. Those guys can play and cutting them now would be a tough pill to swallow. Next year some of those guys are more "cuttable" who rush it?

This isn't the NBA where you try to lose. You build with an eye for the future.
RE: .  
The_Boss : 3/13/2018 12:53 pm : link
In comment 13862038 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
We can label it whatever we want, really - but the bottom line is that we need to rebuild this team from the inside out.

We need to fix the line, we need to figure out who our next QB is, and then we need to go from there.

The Giants likely aren't going to be competitive next year. It makes more sense to be looking at things that can help us long-term rather than right now.


That's why missing on Norwell stings. He would still be a major cog on a contender in 2-3 seasons. I don't blame him for going to Jax: much better team and yes the tax advantage is there as well. I think, until this team starts showing progress, premium FA's are going to avoid this train wreck like the plague. JAG's welcome.
Some oline guys I'd look at:  
AdamBrag : 3/13/2018 12:55 pm : link
Josh Kline, G - This is the guy I really want. I think he's a better scheme fit in a ZBS and he's a great pass protector.
Cameron Flemming, OT - Hasn't played a ton for the Pats, but he's been very solid when he's played.
Sentrel Henderson, OT - Dealing with some health issues, but he could be a legitimate starter in this league.
John Sullivan, C - Has experience in Shurmur's scheme
Joe Berger, C - Same story
I think Gettleman and Shurmur  
djm : 3/13/2018 12:56 pm : link
look at this as though the team has some obvious sore spots and some strong points. They can't cut everyone even if they wanted to so with that in mind they are giving everyone a clean slate. How can you suggest otherwise? like I said, you can't cut everyone. Sit back, let the players you think are trouble prove themselves. If they do, great. IF they don't bye bye.

You don't cut every player with a smudge next to his name after one season and 3-4 plus signs next to the other seasons. That's just shortsighted. You give them a chance to play under your HC.
Cutting everyone is obviously not an option  
Go Terps : 3/13/2018 12:58 pm : link
But like I said earlier Gettleman should be accumulating picks and cap space at every opportunity.

Draft well and use free agency to acquire low cost depth. Play the kids you draft and let them take their lumps.
RE: Cutting everyone is obviously not an option  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 12:59 pm : link
In comment 13862073 Go Terps said:
Quote:
But like I said earlier Gettleman should be accumulating picks and cap space at every opportunity.

Draft well and use free agency to acquire low cost depth. Play the kids you draft and let them take their lumps.


Weren't you just saying picks were "overrated" as recently as like 2 months ago?
RE: .  
GFAN52 : 3/13/2018 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13862038 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
We can label it whatever we want, really - but the bottom line is that we need to rebuild this team from the inside out.

We need to fix the line, we need to figure out who our next QB is, and then we need to go from there.

The Giants likely aren't going to be competitive next year. It makes more sense to be looking at things that can help us long-term rather than right now.


Being somewhat competitive means probably drafting in the 12-16 range next year.
arc  
Go Terps : 3/13/2018 1:03 pm : link
An individual pick can be, yeah. It depends on the situation. Drafting well isn't about one pick. It's about establishing a pipeline over time. a pick here or there isn't a game changer if you draft well. Perfect example is 2005. We were out a couple premium picks because of the Eli trade, but still drafted Webster, Tuck, and Jacobs.

We're in this mess because we drafted like shit for years. Not because we missed on one or two picks.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 1:06 pm : link
In comment 13862084 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 13862038 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


We can label it whatever we want, really - but the bottom line is that we need to rebuild this team from the inside out.

We need to fix the line, we need to figure out who our next QB is, and then we need to go from there.

The Giants likely aren't going to be competitive next year. It makes more sense to be looking at things that can help us long-term rather than right now.



Being somewhat competitive means probably drafting in the 12-16 range next year.


I'm not sure we'll even be "somewhat" competitive, to be honest.

I'd have to see who we drafted and what else we did in FA, though. Way too early to tell.
The key to the rebuild is hitting on picks  
nygiants16 : 3/13/2018 1:06 pm : link
You have to get lucky ad find gems in rounds 3-7, round 3 has killed the giants, that is where you get your depth..

You can trade Beckham for 5 picks but if you only hit on one of them you Made a shit trade...

Getting rid of Beckham makes zero sense, you are trading Beckham in the hopes of drafting another beckham..
RE: arc  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13862092 Go Terps said:
Quote:
An individual pick can be, yeah. It depends on the situation. Drafting well isn't about one pick. It's about establishing a pipeline over time. a pick here or there isn't a game changer if you draft well. Perfect example is 2005. We were out a couple premium picks because of the Eli trade, but still drafted Webster, Tuck, and Jacobs.

We're in this mess because we drafted like shit for years. Not because we missed on one or two picks.


No disagreement there. The drafting was horrendous for several years and set the team back big time.

The quickest way back to respectability will be converting on a much higher % of these picks.

I don't want to see more picks made because of shit like captainship or measurables. I want guys who are productive football players.
RE: The ogletree trade is what's throwing me  
Enzo : 3/13/2018 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13862028 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
I get taking on big salary if you think you're close. I don't get taking on big salary and giving up picks with a rebuild.

agreed.
The real question is  
djm : 3/13/2018 1:21 pm : link
Do they love one of the young qbs. That really is the only question in my eyes.
I thought Jints Central declared their plan  
bw in dc : 3/13/2018 1:21 pm : link
by committing to Eli. Which, to me, suggested one of two things:

(1) Mara wants Eli's farewell tour to be memorable to make up for the fiasco he helped create last year. Or...

(2) They truly want to gear up for a big run these next two years because they actually believe there is enough left in Eli's tank.

I think it's both, but more weight on #2. So this is a fluid process and we need to see what continues to transpire in the free agency and the draft.
.  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 1:23 pm : link
Ogie is still young and under contract for a few years - I think they look at him as a guy who can help both now, and a couple years down the road.

He should be a productive player through the length of his deal.

So, that move doesn't tell me they're trying to win now rather than plan for the future - it kind of satisfies both criterion.
RE: I thought Jints Central declared their plan  
The_Boss : 3/13/2018 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13862160 bw in dc said:
Quote:
by committing to Eli. Which, to me, suggested one of two things:

(1) Mara wants Eli's farewell tour to be memorable to make up for the fiasco he helped create last year. Or...

(2) They truly want to gear up for a big run these next two years because they actually believe there is enough left in Eli's tank.

I think it's both, but more weight on #2. So this is a fluid process and we need to see what continues to transpire in the free agency and the draft.


Roster building around a 37 year old QB in serious decline is a fireable offense.
RE: RE: I thought Jints Central declared their plan  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2018 1:26 pm : link
In comment 13862168 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13862160 bw in dc said:


Quote:


by committing to Eli. Which, to me, suggested one of two things:

(1) Mara wants Eli's farewell tour to be memorable to make up for the fiasco he helped create last year. Or...

(2) They truly want to gear up for a big run these next two years because they actually believe there is enough left in Eli's tank.

I think it's both, but more weight on #2. So this is a fluid process and we need to see what continues to transpire in the free agency and the draft.



Roster building around a 37 year old QB in serious decline is a fireable offense.


Serious decline? Didn't you see that Eagles game last year?
RE: RE: RE: I thought Jints Central declared their plan  
The_Boss : 3/13/2018 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13862176 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13862168 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 13862160 bw in dc said:


Quote:


by committing to Eli. Which, to me, suggested one of two things:

(1) Mara wants Eli's farewell tour to be memorable to make up for the fiasco he helped create last year. Or...

(2) They truly want to gear up for a big run these next two years because they actually believe there is enough left in Eli's tank.

I think it's both, but more weight on #2. So this is a fluid process and we need to see what continues to transpire in the free agency and the draft.



Roster building around a 37 year old QB in serious decline is a fireable offense.



Serious decline? Didn't you see that Eagles game last year?


I hope youíre being sarcastic.
Mara's the owner, who's going to fire him?  
JonC : 3/13/2018 1:28 pm : link
Tend to agree with bw here.

Intent may not be to hit the reset button on a full rebuild, and with current roster composition they might have no choice but to plug holes, hit the draft, and play the 2018 season.

Full reset, rebuild from scratch isn't happening now.

But, to expect to plug holes and make a run behind Eli does not compute any longer, that's sentimentality given the Eli I've watched the past three seasons along with the current roster with some upgrades.
;)  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/13/2018 1:29 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: .  
DieHard : 3/13/2018 1:30 pm : link
In comment 13861870 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

Because whether we agree with it or not, I think they want Eli to be the transition guy for the next QB.

My guess is that we do draft a QB, and that Eli continues starting for a bit - possibly all of next season.

I think they want the next guy to have some time to learn from the sidelines before he gets thrown into action.

But we'll see.


I suspect this is closest to what the plan is. If Eli proves effective in the new system, then they'll contend while grooming his replacement. If he bombs out, then they'll go to the new guy sooner, without any backlash.

The danger with this approach is that if Eli is mediocre or only plays adequately and the coaches stick with him, there'll be plenty of folks who will argue the org is wasting time instead of giving the future franchise QB playing experience. But as with everything concerning Eli, there's never one clear-cut opinion about him, is there?
RE: RE: Norwell was 100% a legit target but JAX outbid us  
Thegratefulhead : 3/13/2018 1:33 pm : link
In comment 13861578 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 13861454 Bold Ruler said:


Quote:


It is what it is. Credit Gettleman for not overspending here. Now it's onto more journeyman options. Yeah sucks, but it could be worse.



I think that's a perfect assessment.

You cut your losses and you move on...that's football.

You're not going to win every battle.......
Not confident we were outbid. No Income tax and the franchise is in a MUCH better position. We needed to outbid Jax by a lot.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I thought Jints Central declared their plan  
BillKo : 3/13/2018 1:44 pm : link
In comment 13862180 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13862176 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 13862168 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 13862160 bw in dc said:


Quote:


by committing to Eli. Which, to me, suggested one of two things:

(1) Mara wants Eli's farewell tour to be memorable to make up for the fiasco he helped create last year. Or...

(2) They truly want to gear up for a big run these next two years because they actually believe there is enough left in Eli's tank.

I think it's both, but more weight on #2. So this is a fluid process and we need to see what continues to transpire in the free agency and the draft.



Roster building around a 37 year old QB in serious decline is a fireable offense.



Serious decline? Didn't you see that Eagles game last year?



I hope youíre being sarcastic.


How are they building around a 37 year old QB?

The QB is, at best, going to be here two more years.

He probably is the best option to use as a bridge to the next guy - which they may draft this year or even next year. It all depends on how they feel about this year's crop of QBs.

DG is trying to build a team, gathering the best pieces, period.
RE: RE: RE: Norwell was 100% a legit target but JAX outbid us  
arcarsenal : 3/13/2018 1:46 pm : link
In comment 13862203 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13861578 BillKo said:


Quote:


In comment 13861454 Bold Ruler said:


Quote:


It is what it is. Credit Gettleman for not overspending here. Now it's onto more journeyman options. Yeah sucks, but it could be worse.



I think that's a perfect assessment.

You cut your losses and you move on...that's football.

You're not going to win every battle.......

Not confident we were outbid. No Income tax and the franchise is in a MUCH better position. We needed to outbid Jax by a lot.


Was less a matter of being outbid and more that Norwell simply preferred to play for JAX.

Can't blame him.
If the Giants donít draft a QB..  
Sean : 3/13/2018 1:50 pm : link
Iíll be concerned. The idea should be to replicate 2004. I question Eli wanting to mentor a rookie QB, but Shurmur should want his guy like Coughlin in 04. If not Eli, a veteran QB should be brought in to be a stop gap. I think keeping Eli with a rookie QB is tricky.
I agree that it's fluid  
AcesUp : 3/13/2018 2:02 pm : link
Keep in mind, they haven't touched future cap room through restructures. Once they do that, I'll start to worry. I'm hoping we are looking a reboot or rebuild. I initially preferred the total teardown approach, but after looking at our contracts that would facilitate that kind of strategy, it does make much more sense to move on from those guys next year. I just hope that we aren't selling out to make one last run with Eli in mind because we're running out of outs and the odds aren't there to chase.
Also  
AcesUp : 3/13/2018 2:09 pm : link
Eli's roster bonus is March 18, until then, he's not a guarantee to be a Giant. Now that the QB chaos is starting to shakeout, there is a possibility that he is dealt. Sure, it's a longshot possibility, but it would be malpractice of DG not to entertain offers.
RE: If the Giants donít draft a QB..  
Go Terps : 3/13/2018 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13862239 Sean said:
Quote:
Iíll be concerned. The idea should be to replicate 2004. I question Eli wanting to mentor a rookie QB, but Shurmur should want his guy like Coughlin in 04. If not Eli, a veteran QB should be brought in to be a stop gap. I think keeping Eli with a rookie QB is tricky.


I agree that Eli + rookie QB is suboptimal. To me that shows a lack of direction.
I don't think John has the spine to do anything to move Manning  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/13/2018 2:28 pm : link
First he allowed the last coach to bench him, then folded like a cheap suit in the face of the fan backlash.

I think they're locked in to Eli for at least 2018. I'm not sure that it's tricky to have him share a room with a rookie QB, because I don't think Eli's capable of doing any harm. He doesn't have to be a mentor if he doesn't want to be, but there cannot be any draft decision made out of any kind of loyalty to the guy. That's inexcusable, and it's really hard to see John or even Gettlemen see past the emotional attachment to the guy.
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner